Totally Gold Champions League 01/02: Zidane downs Leverkusen in Glasgow

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2:37The Athletic FC Podcast Network.

2:47Hello, listener. It's totally gold time, revisiting five years ago, a time when no football was on, so we all came together to look back on some of the greatest seasons in history. Today, we bring you the one where Alvaro Romero, Duncan Alexander and Raphael Honigstein together look back on that time when upstarts Leverkusen made it to the Champions League final to face Real Madrid in Glasgow.

3:18Unbelievable. Unbelievable.

3:34Roberto Carlos a Solari. Huelga la pelota. Ojo a Zidane. Yep, that's me. I'm a ball that's just been hit by Zinedine Zidane. for probably the greatest Champions League goal ever scored in Glasgow. You're probably wondering how I ended up in this situation.

3:57Well, the road to Glasgow features mass brawls, a metatarsal, a spoon-bending sidekick and possibly German football's biggest bottlers. And it all starts back in August 2001. You had your 32 teams on the starting grid of a brand new Champions League season. Bayern Munich were there, brand new champions of course, European greats Liverpool and Celtic had joined the competition for the first time. Celtic were dreaming of that Glasgow final, and so was for Alex Ferguson with Man United. Also present, Juve, Roma and Lazio, though again, no Italian side would reach the knockouts. And Real Madrid, for whom Glasgow also had a special significance.

4:35Plus, a side called Bayern Leverkusen, who were, Rafa, to single-handedly eliminate all the English clubs in this campaign. Rafa, who were this Bayer Leverkusen? Well, this Bayer Leverkusen were the best team after Bayern in those years. They were very, very unlucky, which is often forgotten, in 2000 when they travelled to Unterhaching, which is a suburb of Munich and only needed a draw at the last game of the season. And Michael Ballack scored an own goal and they conceded a second to lose the championship to Bayern in 2000. And by 2002, that pattern of them being nearly men had already been established to a certain extent.

5:19But this was, I think, in a football sense, the most exciting German team in many, many years, especially for neutrals. They had this wonderful blend of South Americans, some young and up-and-coming Germans, and some really interesting foreigners as well. I mean, you go through the list of the team, Lucio, Zeroberto, Balak, Schneider, Bashtürk, Berbertov, Neuville. It was a great side, really, really great side. And Buttingol, your favourite player. So they played some really, really decent stuff. And as you said, I think they surprised everyone and made it all the way to the final, which perhaps they should have won as well.

5:58Perhaps so. We'll talk about the final subsequently, managed, of course, by Klaas Topmüller. Now, Group Stage 1 began on September 11, 2001. Remarkably, most of the games still went ahead that day. Perhaps the magnitude of the terrible events that had taken place was just too vast to take in in the hours that followed. But Real Madrid began their campaign anyway that night in Rome with a 2-1 win. They were soon putting four goals past the locomotive Moscow and other four past Anderlecht as well. Alvaro with Delboski in charge now and Zidane, their star signing that summer from Juventus, they were on the hunt for their third title in six years.

6:38Yes, and I think that Real Madrid has a very clear idea of what they wanted. Because if you compare what Barcelona did that summer and what Real Madrid did that summer, Real Madrid targeted only one player, Zinedine Zidane, and signed just one. Whereas Barcelona signed like six or seven different players. So at that stage, Real Madrid had a very clear idea of what they wanted. And the team had won the league in 2001, I would say that comprehensively. And they were favourites to win that Champions League, all together with the usual suspects. It's funny how Zinedine Zidane started his career at Real Madrid, because he had a bad spell at the beginning, and there were even question marks on Zidane, and how much he could improve Real Madrid.

7:20If you think about it now, it's just crazy. But there is this anecdote as well, that has been reported a few times, of Zidane just going to Florentino Perez's office in late September that season. to complain that Figo wasn't passing the ball to him. So there was a little bit of an ego contest between the players as well. You know, it was the beginning of the Galactico time, and that season ended up working for Real Madrid. But in the subsequent seasons, it didn't go so well to have so many good players in the same squad. Yeah, because we heard the other day about Anelka's issues when he tried to join in with his teammates at Real Madrid.

7:57Not the most welcoming of locker rooms. Yeah, and well, this story I'm telling you, has been reported by different reporters in Spain, and I believe that there is a bit of truth in that. I mean, there was Figo, the most expensive signing in 2000, then Zidane was the most expensive signing in 2001, and over there there was obviously plenty of good players to put together in the same team, and it wasn't easy. Fortunately for Real Madrid, they had Vicente del Bosque, who is probably the biggest pacifier you will find in Spanish football. Well, game of the opening round, meanwhile, featured Zidane's old side, Juventus, and it was probably the best Champions League game seen in Glasgow that season.

8:38Puts a free kick in, which beats Resergate. Sutton!

8:45Simply superb! Juve now without Zizou, but still with a mighty line-up, visiting a Celtic team who'd only come through the preliminaries, managing to beat Ajax to get into the group stages for the first time, and had a bit of a grudge against Juventus, having been denied they felt a point in Turin, in their opening group game, by a controversial late penalty. Juve, as if to emphasise the point, turning up in Glasgow in an entirely black kit, as if to emphasise their strong links with officialdom. They looked sensational. Alvaro, the game did too. Yeah, it was fantastic. And it all started very promisingly, with Alessandro Del Piero scoring a beautiful free kick.

9:25It was so strong, so well-placed. And then Chris Chaton managed to score a brace, And one of his volleys was so satisfying, in a way, to watch. Because he just hit the ball the way that he wanted and he almost broke the net. It was one of those games that probably is very well remembered at Glasgow because it was beautiful. And I think Celtic have so many chances as well. And they beat a very good Juventus with Del Piero and Trezeguet and some really good stars in there. Ned Bird, yeah. Yeah, that Sutton volley, one of the top two Champions League volleys that we would see in Glasgow that season.

10:00Celtic ending up with nine points in the group, but not managing to qualify. Plenty of teams did, though. Second group stage featured all sorts of delights this season. Amongst them, a remarkable match between Roma and Galatasaray at the Stadio Olimpico in Rome, which ended in a 1-1 draw. But then the real match began as more than 50 players, officials and police officers got involved in a mass rock. Not kidding, this was genuine violence. It all sparked off after some insults between Roma and Galatasaray players. Lima starts punching people, then Gabriel Batistuta gets involved, Capello gets involved, Montellic involved.

10:36Then you have all these policemen in their blue helmets with truncheons who start wading in and beating up the players and apparently then enter the Galatasaray locker room afterwards to continue their pacifying action with truncheons. The whole thing goes on for about 20 minutes and resulted in loads of bans for Roma and absolutely no disciplinary action at all on Galatasres. That was interesting. Anfield, anything we need to talk about from the second group stage? A very good goal from Barcelona from that time. Scored at Anfield. I remember that Barcelona touched the ball or did like 29 passes before Marc Overmars scored a beautiful goal against Liverpool.

11:15Xavi, attention to Overmars. Can mark, must mark. Overmars, Overmars, will mark. Goal! I remember that that goal will have a lot of heavy praise in Spain and what I want to take away from all that is the fact that Xavi Hernandez gave the pass to Mark Overmars because that was the season when the summer before Guardiola had left Barcelona and Xavi was supposed to be the successor of Pep Guardiola and in that game he showed the quality that he could bring to a Barcelona team and let's not forget that Xavi was a controversial player until he was 26-27 because some say that he was never going to be the great midfielder that he was supposed to be and I think he saw glimpses of his quality in that game passing the ball to Marc Overmars who was a player more over Mars that never never fulfilled expectations of Barcelona he was one of those panic buy-ins after Figo left to Real Madrid and this is probably the best moment of Overmars playing for Barcelona.

12:20Among the many people who are doubting Xavi's ability to inherit the mantle of Pep Guardiola across the Daily Mail with that famous, the best footballers in the world, and Xavi headline. Also going out in the second group stage, Arsenal, I think we should mention them. There's kind of an accepted kind of narrative that the 0-3-0-4 was the big miss for Arsenal in not winning the Champions League under Wenger, but you can make a case that 0-1, 0-2 was as well. I mean, they beat Bayer Leverkusen 4-1 at Highbury in one of the best displays that season. Pires, Henry, Vieira and Bergkamp all scored in that game.

12:55Now, some of those players would continue to be good but I think that was possibly the last season when Bergkamp was at his absolute peak. But the big problem for Arsenal was they lost, they didn't win any of their six away games which is strange because in the Premier League they didn't lose away from home all season. It's one of the few times this ever happened and that season in the Premier League they were the only team in top flight history to score in all 38 of their league games as well so it was one of their best league performances and they weren't quite able to translate it to European football they lost at Deportivo and it just felt like every time they went away from home they kind of fell to bits a bit but I think it really is a kind of missed opportunity for Arsenal this season and people kind of forget about that At the same time I think that the level of the group Arsenal was involved in was astonishing they were playing against Bayer Leverkusen the runner-up of that competition Deportivo La Coruña and Juve they were all together in the same group so that was never going to be easy for Arsenal and they managed to get seven points in that group not enough obviously Yeah I mean actually if you'd asked me a few weeks ago about the second group stage I'd have been like I don't like it but having gone through these seasons the second group stage is brilliant every season as Alvarez is there the groups are so strong and there's so many good games come out of it But one game that wasn't a very good one in the second group stage was Bayern going to Manchester United for a 0-0 draw.

14:16That was enough for both of them to go through. I think it was the penultimate game of their group. I remember that game very fondly, if that's the right word, because Uli Hoeneß, then the Bayern general manager still, or maybe had just become president, afterwards said, well, this was a game for football gourmets, a tactical masterclass from Bayern. And I thought, come on, you must be joking. so as a very young and inexperienced journalist I wrote an article the next day saying well what the sausage factory owner Uli Hoernes understands as gourmet football is perhaps not everybody else's same idea and then two days later I had the fright of my life when I was walking down Oxford Street and who calls me on my mobile phone Uli Hoernes to complain about me being disrespectful and what does it have to do with him being a sausage factory owner you know you can't just write about the football why do I have to become so personal and I was just found myself just stammering I don't know what I said but it was an unforgettable experience.

15:19Was that the worst experience you've had? Yeah very good James.

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18:06Woof! I said a hey! That was the sound of the summer, of course, as the Champions League campaigner 102 swung into the knockout stages. Bayer Leverkusen had seen off Arsenal in their group. As Alvaro says, a tough one with Juve and Deportivo, and they would have more of that kind of thing for the other English side after Arsenal came Liverpool in the quarters. Obviously, last catch-up, that song was the highlight of everyone's 2002, and it was so big that they even got asked to play at the UEFA Cup final in Seville the following year, in 2003. Obviously, the Mourinho versus O 'Neal final. There's quite a lot of Ketchup related aftermath in that because O 'Neill when he then left Sunderland and Di Canio took over, the first thing Di Canio did was ban Ketchup because he said the players were too on set because they'd been having too much Ketchup.

18:55I think he actually meant the song. Yes, he could have done. You know, who knows? Who knows? Just a word on Las Ketchup, that lovely band from the early 2000s. They called the band like that before their father. Their father was called Tomate. and he was a flamenco teacher in Spain and quite a famous singer as well. Very nice, Alvaro. Anyway, so now Liverpool in the quarterfinals for Bayer Leverkusen. A 1-0 defeat at Anfield, but then, Rafa, was this one of the most famous victories in this campaign for Topmuller's team? The 4-2 win over Liverpool in Leverkusen. I think it is. I think that was the marquee performance of them.

19:38I mean, they had lots of really good results, as Duncan mentioned, especially against those big sides, including these English teams. But to beat Liverpool, a formidable Liverpool, 4-2 at home after that 1-0 defeat was a real statement, I think. Michael Ballack had a fantastic game, scored a brace and I think Berbatov scored as well. It was just, they were just too much. They were so powerful. And while they did concede a couple, they really played Liverpool off the park at some spells. It was one of only two times that season that Liverpool let in four goals. It was that season when Julier was in hospital for quite a while and Phil Thompson took over, but their defensive prowess was their main concern.

20:18They got through the second group stage having scored four and conceded four, so this wasn't an all-out attack Liverpool team, this was a team that was built on defence. So yeah, for Leverkusen to do that was massive. I think the only sad thing about it was it did deny us the semi-finals in the Champions League of Barcelona against Real Madrid and Liverpool against Manchester United, which would have been a nice little match-up. Instead it was Bayer Leverkusen who completed the set in the semifinals by doing Man United. United who had beaten Deportivo in the quarterfinals but lost David Beckham in the process.

20:52Now this was huge. Beckham suffering a broken metatarsal after a two-footed challenge by Argentine midfielder Aldo Ducha. He was given an eight-week recovery prognosis but there were only seven weeks to go before the World Cup in Korea and Japan. Well, metatarsis were still very fashionable at the time. Only later that they became a little bit of a cliché and passé, really. But back in being ahead of the curve, as he very much was back then, often on the covers of the face and things like that, I was sure to get that injury first. He was on the cover of the Sun newspaper, I would say newspaper, but The Sun publication shortly after this, Beck Us Pray was their headline.

21:38They had a picture of the midfielder's foot and the notion was that everyone in the country would touch the foot when spoon-bending psychic Uri Geller appeared on GMTV, which was a popular morning show, and basically psychic energy would be united and concentrated around the country on restoring David's foot, which was obviously seen as absolutely crucial. Geller had obviously claimed credit for the slightly moving ball when Gary McAllister took the penalty in Euro 96 against England. If you look at the replay, just before McAllister hits it, it moves ever so slightly. Geller claimed that was him.

22:14I'm not sure that's been proven. But you can argue that this time it worked. Beckham did just about make it back for the World Cup. But it's hard to overstate how massive a thing this was. You mentioned it was on the front page of newspapers, but Tony Blair interrupted a cabinet meeting to bring it up as a point of discussion. Aldo Dush became this kind of figure of hate in the media and he came up with an amazing reply when they said, you know, you've injured David Beckham, what have you got to say? He said, I don't need to speak with him about this because if this happens to a player from Deportivo, nobody would care.

22:49And, you know, he's right. Man United are in the semi-finals. Fergie is dreaming of that Glasgow final. It's a 2-2 draw at Old Trafford and then Leverkusen 1-1 Rafa.

23:13And the start of Roy Keane going mad that year came out after the game slamming the attitude of the Man United players, saying that Man Utd deserve to be in the final. They should have been in the final, but the team didn't deliver, etc., etc. Really questioning their appetite and their application. And, of course, also making, I think, a prediction about United maybe losing out in the title race domestically, which came true as well that year. Leverkusen were behind three times in the semifinal across both legs, levelled every time, and, of course, went through then on away goals. The scenes at the end of the second game, plus Todd Moller dancing across the pitch as the PA in Leverkusen played three Lions in a final insult to their visitors.

23:57More like top loader, really, if you think about it. But, yeah, I mean, the context for United's season, you know, Ferguson had announced at the start that he was going to retire, you know, and it was all set up for, you know, Champions League final in Glasgow, retire, United win the Champions League, see you later. But he changed his mind halfway through, and as Rafa mentioned there, they were pretty bad in the league. They had six home defeats in the league that season. which is the most since the 1970s. Only David Moyes has since done worse than that. Obviously, by the time of the semi-final, Ferguson had done a U-turn and signed a big new contract.

24:31But that Manchester United team, Van Nistelrooy, was incredible that season. One PFA player of the year, scored 10 goals in the Champions League, top score in the Premier League. But overall, the defence in particular, and Barthez, made quite a lot of howlers in various games in the Champions League. So, you know, it was definitely the start of that decline at United that was only really arrested when they signed Ronaldo and later Rooney. That business, by the way, of Sur Alex and Glasgow, the final, of course, that's his hometown. But it's also the place where supposedly his fascination with the European Cup began because he was there among 127 ,000 people who watched the 1960 final at Hamdaf Park, where Real Madrid had that legendary 7-3 win over Eintracht Frankfurt with, was it, four goals from Pushkas and three for Di Stefano.

25:21But anyway, tough luck, Sir Alex. Bayern were in the final and on for a potential treble. What about, though, their opponents, Real Madrid? Well, they breezed through their second group with Panathinaikos, Sparta Prague and Porto, and then in the quarterfinals met Bayern again, Rafa, again. Yeah, they met again. And the game is really famous for what happened in the 11th minute of the first leg because Jeremy of Real Madrid picks up the ball and he's not really going anywhere. And it's a speculative shot from the edge of the box. And everyone almost turns away because Oliver Kahn doesn't really get beaten from those kind of shots from that kind of distance.

25:58But it somehow bubbles across and over his arms into the net. Jeremy's going to shoot as well and does so and scores. What an astonishing goal. and question marks over Oliver Kahn again here. That caused huge merriment in the Spanish press because they remembered Kahn as the guy who had thwarted Real Madrid a couple of years before and led to Kahn saying, well, I then have to win the game single-handedly in Madrid to get us through. Bayern did end up winning 2-1 in the first leg, but in the second leg they were beaten quite comfortably 2-0. And that moment against Jeremy turned out to be a bit of a warning or maybe foreshadowing what would happen to Khan three months later at an even bigger stage in an even bigger game where he made a similar mistake in the World Cup final.

26:50Oliver Kahn was very well respected in Spain. They all knew that he was a great goalkeeper. But it's true that he could have done much better with that Jeremy shot. And that actually was a decider for the tyre. I remember that that game was the second leg and came with a lot of controversy because allegedly Salihad Misic, the Bosnian player said after beating Real Madrid in Germany that Real Madrid f***ed in their pants literally in the important games and I remember that that created like a build-up to the game because you know Real Madrid fans and Real Madrid players didn't take that well and there was the feeling of revenge among the Real Madrid camp They had to beat Bayern, but also they had to beat the arrogance of Salihad Mises.

27:39And they managed to win that game 2-0 at the end. And that was one of the most important steps towards winning Llanowena. Well, then they had another big step straight afterwards because they had a semi-final with Barcelona. You talked about Barcelona with the dawn of Xavi against Liverpool in the second group stage. Real Madrid, though, going to Camp Nou and winning 2-0 in the first leg of the semi with a pair of delicious chips from Zidane and that man Steve McManaman.

28:12Yeah,

28:17that man Steve McManaman who actually, when you think about it, his contribution to Real Madrid was bigger than the memory can keep because he was signed as a winger and he managed to become a really good midfielder for Real Madrid and he was always there. I think the problem with McMahon at Real Madrid is that he wasn't a very good squad player. When he was on the bench, I think that he needed to have football and start regularly to become involved. When Ronaldo was signed and when the Galactico era started, McMahon started losing a little bit his place at Real Madrid. But that semifinal between Barcelona and Real Madrid was so important for them both, James, because you have to take into consideration this.

28:59Deportivo de la Coruña had won the Spanish Cup. at Santiago Bernabéu, in which it was called El Centenariazo, because Real Madrid was celebrating 100 years when playing that final at the Santiago Bernabéu, and Deportivo de la Coruña beat them at Santiago Bernabéu, their own ground. And La Liga was won by Valencia that year, in 2002. So Real Madrid and Barcelona, they only had one card to play, and it was the Champions League. And it was Real Madrid that played it. Through they went to the final, the 15th of May, 2002.

29:43Jonathan Hamilton says the proclaimers were cocooned in a giant football, appearing as the segments of the ball peeled away before giving a flawless rendition of I'm going to be, brackets 500 miles. Should the final be remembered more for this than Zidane's goal? Of course not, Jonathan. let's talk about the final game gets underway and Real Madrid aren't hanging about Raúl another goal for Raúl in a Champions League final he scored in Paris two years before and he scored that day and it was a very clever goal by Raúl because he got a lot of instinct as a striker I remember that it was a long throw by Roberto Carlos and Raúl just caught and guarded all Bayern Leverkusen defence and he scored with a sneaky shot the goalkeeper could have said, really.

30:31It is a tight contest, though. Just five minutes later, Lucio equalises. There was a lot of battling spirit in this Bayern team, Rafa. Well, I think that is a contested statement, James. But certainly that game, they did come back and they played really, really well. I think there's a good argument to say that they might even have been the better side overall. I think they pushed Real Madrid very hard. They created chances. It was a very open game. And I remember being in the stadium and thinking, Leverkusen can really do this. Real Madrid, despite Leverkusen's results, which were very, very good, I think still seemed to be surprised just with the amount of resistance, the amount of quality they came up against on the night.

31:13And then shortly before half time, this happens. Vuelga la pelota, ojo a Zidane! Gol, gol, gol, gol, gol, gol, gol, gol, gol, gol, gol, gol! Madre mía. Vaya golazo de Zidane!

31:30Rafa, you were there. Was there a moment of stunned silence afterwards as everybody took in what had just happened? I don't think stunned silence because the Real Madrid fans who were vastly outnumbering the Leverkusen section, I think it was a very, very small crowd from Leverkusen. Virtually the whole city, I think, had travelled. It was, first of all, jubilation, but I think only then when you saw the replays did you understand just what a majestic moment of beauty you were privileged to watch it happened so quickly and the angle and the move was so I think unpromising you just don't expect a goal to be scored so the first moment was oh there's a goal and then only later you begin to realize what has actually happened and I think I was lucky to to commentate on the game for for UEFA and just remember really struggling for words to sum up the ability and the sheer technical skill and brilliance from Zidane at that very moment.

32:29And I think even though there was still a half to play and there was still a lot of football to come and years to come, you felt three or four minutes after that goal, you felt that you had witnessed something historic. The goal was just so sublime. And don't forget that Zinedine Zidane was on right foot as well, and he scored it with the left. So probably if you ask any footballer, what do they think about that volley? They will probably plow the difficulty of the execution, even more than the beauty, because he was a right footed player scoring that. I think that takes away from the goal a little bit, because I think his technique isn't quite as smooth as it would have been on his right hand side.

33:08So it is a great goal, but he does look slightly awkward as he swings. I've never been a complete advocate of that goal. Otham Shank is feeling controversial. Is that Zidane goal really that good at Otham or is it glorified because of the person who scored it? Football State of Mind MP says, what about the Roberto Carlos cross before it? Is it bad or intentional? So just to break things down, you've got a Santiago Solari kind of return pass that's I think a bit over here, but Roberto Carlos is bursting down the wing and he beats Schneider, but he only has time to basically, the ball bounces, he basically just has time to hook it back over his shoulder without even looking.

33:48And it falls perfectly for Zidane, who then unleashes this wonderful swiveling left-footed volley. Intentional, the hooked cross, or not? I think that he just wanted to put the ball in the mixer. He didn't look at his right. He didn't know who was there. Fair. And what about this notion that Zidane's goal wasn't all that? oh i'm just watching it again it's not good is it raf perfect the way he swivels his whole body it's not just a volley the ball is behind him so he has to stretch the leg first and then he makes almost a 360 degree turn as he hits it it's just imagine imagine that he gets his other leg off the ground at the same time it would have looked a lot better he didn't have to do that no he didn't have to, but it would have looked better.

34:37I think that there was a goal, Duncan, that probably is a fair contestant in terms of beauty. With Zidane's goal, it was Gareth Bale in the 2018 final. That goal was very nice as well, but I think that it's more difficult what Zidane did, because the ball is coming from pretty much the sky. How do you hunt that ball in the area with the left foot? If you have played football, I'm sure you have. a few times. Doing that is almost impossible, even for any professional player. Possibly. I have to say, consensus seems to be that this was the greatest goal in Champions League final history, at least until Gareth Bale's effort for Real Madrid against Liverpool.

35:20It was far from over, though, in this game at Hampton Park. Bayern still believed, piling on the pressure. Iker Casillas had come on, and in the final minutes, the seven that were actually added on after the 90, He was like one of those goalkeeping cats as Bayern pulled on the pressure, even throwing their butt up forward. Yeah, I mean, Madrid only had two shots in the whole of the second half. It really was a kind of backs-to-the-wall performance. I think people forget that Casillas came on. He's one of only two goalkeepers to ever come on as a sub in a Champions League final. The other one, obviously Manuel Almunia, because of Lehmann's red card in 2006.

35:59And it's arguable that Casillas won the game for them. He makes a number of really good saves at the end. And like you say, Butt was pretty much up front towards the end. I think he spent more time in the opposition penalty area than his own in the closing few minutes, which normally would be a bit of a roll of the dice. But as we know, he is a goal-scoring legend, so it made sense. And it was a turning point in Casillas' career as well, because the season he lost his place to Cesar, the goalkeeper who started in that final. and he regained the start at Real Madrid after that game in Glasgow. And in fact, he ended up playing in that World Cup as well as the starting goalkeeper for Spain just because Canizares picked a really, really strange injury before the World Cup when allegedly a bottle of perfume fell on his toe and then he couldn't play that World Cup.

36:51So it all seemed to be set for Casillas to have a quiet spring and a quiet summer, not being the starter for Real Madrid, neither for Spain. And he ended up playing the Champions League final, being the hero, and he ended up playing the World Cup. If you ever want to sum up the difference between English and Spanish football, I always think Canizares doing that injury with some cologne is quite nice. And Dave Besant did it with a bottle of salad cream. So, you know, different but the same. Real Madrid had triumphed their ninth European title. Little did they know that the Decima would be another 12 years away, but for now they could celebrate.

37:27As for poor Bayer Leverkusen, or should I say Nevekusen, Rafa, what happened to their treble dreams? Well, this was the last of their treble attempts, and of course the most important one. Three days earlier they had lost the German Cup final against Schalke 4-2 in Berlin. I think they managed to deal with that because they still had the Champions League final to come, didn't dwell on it too much. A week earlier than the cup final, the season had finished with them again being runners-up, as Dortmund had won that year under Matthias Sommer in charge. Again, Leverkusen had the initiative and in the end just ran out of steam, lost a terrible game against Nürnberg that they should have never lost and ended up with nothing but plaudit and admiration for their football, but no trophies to show for.

38:17And of course, they haven't won anything since either. Is it from this year that they're known as Neverkusen or was that their nickname even before? No, I think, I mean, in Germany, they were known as Vizekusen at the time, sort of vice, you know, vice, Kusen as in runners up or second. And then I think the Neverkusen tag really started to stick after the 2002 Champions League final, where people were much more aware internationally about their history and that lack of success. But they never really got close anymore. I mean, not in the Champions League. Rainer Kalmund, who used to be their heavyweight general manager, afterwards said, well, if you can guarantee me that we'd finish runners-up in all competitions, I would definitely sign that right now.

39:00I'll take that because I think he understood just how difficult it would be, especially with all these big players leaving, for that near success to be repeated. And of course, it wasn't. Leverkusen were very nearly relegated the following season. Topmuller lost his job. and they never quite recovered as a European force since. There is obviously a little parallel in England with Leeds as well. You know, obviously didn't get quite as close as Leverkusen, but, you know, had a couple of seasons where they really were about to break into the challenge at the top and then quickly fell away. So, you know, it can happen.

39:34Very quick question here from John Sands who says, what ever happened to Klaus Topmüller? He had one more spell in the Bundesliga with Hamburg that didn't really work out just for one year, 2003, 2004. And then he became national manager of Georgia for a couple of years. Tried very hard, I think, to get another job, but it never really worked out for him. And in the end, he retired a few years ago. Many thanks there to Alvaro, Duncan, Rafa and producer Charlie. We're going to be back on Thursday with another Totally Gold. See you then.

40:08You've been listening to the Totally Football Show, part of the Athletic FC podcast. network for more great podcasts just like this one including the athletic fc and our dedicated club podcasts search for the athletic on apple spotify and all the usual places we're also at the totally football show on insta and at the totally show on youtube the totally football show is an athletic media company production the athletic fc podcast network

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