Totally Gold Champions League 04/05: Liverpool conquer Milan

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1:18James Horncastle: The Athletic FC Podcast Network.

1:28Hello, listener. Through the summer, we're running regular Totally Football shows on Tuesdays and Thursdays, plus a bonus show, usually on the Monday that we're calling Totally Goal, revisiting that curious interval in 2020 when there was no football on and all we had to talk about was some of the greatest football seasons in history. Today, here's the episode where we look back on a classic Champions League campaign and perhaps the greatest final in the competition's history in the company of James Horncastle, Alvaro Romeo and Sasha Gurianov.

2:10Champions League, Chapter 13. It was the 50th season of Europe's top cup competition and it was a special one. Death threats, laundry baskets, s*** on a stick and more on the road to Istanbul and one of the greatest comebacks mankind has ever seen. Sasha, you were there, of course, in Istanbul that night. An amazing season, an amazing climax. Just first off, how much did you miss that Liverpool side? For me, the Benitez era will always be very special because Liverpool became a serious European side and I think for Liverpool, historically, that's been quite important. And of course, there was the 20-year gap to Heisel and the European ban and it took Liverpool a very long time to return there.

2:54And of course, I think because financially Liverpool were so far behind, for example, Chelsea in mid-noughties, the European Cup offered the respite and I think that win in 2005 almost kept Liverpool relevant in people's minds. And you have to remember that since that 2005, it's not like Liverpool kicked on and capitalised on that because there was a few ownership issues. They were so far behind, they never really caught up and they had to drop quite low before rising again. So between the two European Cup wins in 2005 and 2019, Liverpool actually won two trophies. So that, I know there's so many things that make that era special, but I suppose it's also, I think being feared in Europe was psychologically quite important for a lot of Liverpool fans in a good way.

3:39That team was being feared in Europe, not Liverpool fans, of course. And it just made, it made that team exciting to support. It made that team, you know, travelling around Europe, coming somewhere like the San Siro, you know, up against Inter. I know I'm jumping a few years forward. And the place is going nuts. And Inter-East, I think, they're going to win. And then Torres on the turn, turning and, you know, firing the shot into the bottom corner. And the whole place falls quiet. We all go crazy. And then the whole place sort of rises up again. And it's these sort of experiences that Liverpool fans had.

4:08I think it's just impossible to forget. Well, that season coming into the competition. Four-time European champions, Liverpool. but as you mentioned it had been a long time since they'd been relevant. They barely featured in the later stages since the competition's rebranding. They'd failed to make it out of the group two seasons before. The previous season to this one they hadn't even qualified at all and this campaign was again almost over before it even started. Matchday six of the group stages, Liverpool at home to Olympiacos and needing to win by two clear goals and promptly then going a goal down to the Greeks thanks to a Rivaldo free kick.

4:43But, stop me if this sounds familiar, inspired by Steven Gerrard, three second-half goals turn it around. And who gets the crucial third? From Liverpool's point of view, anyone will do.

4:58Miller, lovely cushion header. But Gerrard! You're beautiful! What a head, son! What a head! He didn't want to wake up tomorrow in the UEFA Cup. Sasha, wow, were you there at Anfield? No, I wasn't. I was actually doing the Likely Lads in Barbados. We walked around so many bars. Hang on a second. Just for any of our younger listeners, can you just explain that statement? It's back to the comedy show. I think it's the 80s or late 70s. So basically these guys are spending the whole day trying to avoid the result. And I think it's probably impossible to do now, but we had to watch the game on delay.

5:37And I spent, I think, about four hours trying not to find out what happened and then watched it as live. and the bloke came and sat next to me in the second half. He managed to just mess it up because a news line came up. So he actually knew what happened, but he didn't spoil it for me. So yeah, there was basically two of us watching it in the bar whilst all this crazy stuff was happening at Anfield. But a lot about that game is down to the bench. And I think this is what Rafael Benitez had to do throughout that whole season, manage injuries. All small players who've never really featured for Liverpool again, like Sina Pongol, Neil Mellor, they were the guys who came in the second half and rescued that particular match.

6:10I mean, also Steven Gerrard, he missed three group games because of injury. He had a lot of ground to make up. Liverpool were actually, for four of those games in the group, Liverpool were actually pretty horrible, completely nondescript, couldn't score. The only goal was scored for Liverpool at Deportivo La Coruña by Jorge Andrade, who is obviously Raphael Honigstein's favourite and obviously ours now as well. And the campaign didn't really get going until the Olympiacos game. Right. Well, after that, the round of 16 awaited, which saw Liverpool facing Bayer Leverkusen beating them 3-1 home and away.

6:40And that brought, James, a quarterfinal meeting with Juventus, the first time that these two clubs had faced each other since the Heisel tragedy.

6:48James Horncastle: Yeah, and Juventus had such a glittering team in terms of personnel that were there before the break-up brought on by Calciopoli. so you know Buffon, Churam, Cannavaro, Nedved, Ibrahimovic and they were flying in the league they were going to win Serie A and Benitez looks back on this game as being as important if not more important than Istanbul certainly as Sasha was saying with the Olympiacos game I think some of the players felt that after putting this Juventus team out there wasn't a team in Italy that they couldn't beat particularly when you look at the second leg where they were missing so many players and managed to set up in a classic kind of Benitez tactical system and end up getting the 0-0 draw that they needed to see out Juve.

7:43James Horncastle: Juve put out Real Madrid the round before with another kind of late, late, late show from Marcelo Zalegeta as we saw a few years before in Barcelona. So I think this only seemed to kind of reinforce Liverpool's belief that they could maybe do it. I mean, again, I do think Sasha's saying that the Olympiacos game kicking things off. If you look at Liverpool's results prior to that Olympiacos game, it's just extraordinary. They'd already lost five games in the league. They were seventh. They'd drawn against Aston Villa. I mean, it's not just unlikely for the position they found themselves in that half-time in Istanbul.

8:21James Horncastle: It's unlikely in just where Liverpool were at, generally speaking, that season. I think that one of the things that marked the performance of English clubs in this Champions League is the fact that Chelsea and Liverpool were very speculative as well. And this is something that maybe wasn't in the description of English clubs before 2004-2005. Normally they were attacking-minded, or if anything, what you saw was what you got. and Chelsea and Liverpool were different. Chelsea and Liverpool knew how to win the game in an Italian way, if you want to put it that sort of generic way. And that was very remarkable for me.

9:01James Horncastle: Everyone remembers Luis Garcia for what happened next and we'll get to that in a moment, James. But let's not forget the goal he did score against Juventus where the ball kind of just bounces into his path outside the area and he hits this rasping volley which loops over Gianluigi Buffon. Luis Garcia! What an effort! What a goal! What a goal by Luis Garcia! I tell you what, this was a Champions League season of great goals. There was the one in the Chelsea-Barcelona game from a certain Ronaldinho. So much great football in this season. Well, let's get on to Chelsea because they were awaiting Liverpool down the road.

9:45Their first season, of course, under Jose Mourinho and their route to the semi-final with Liverpool had been colourful. After winning their group, which featured, of course, Mourinho's old club Porto, Chelsea then, in the last 16, ran up against his other old club, Barcelona. Jose, rather cheekily, began the first leg by predicting both line-ups. Then after, Chelsea had lost 2-1 at the Camp Nou, revealed his darker side, accusing referee Anders Frisk of consorting with Frank Reichard at half-time, leading to death threats for the referee and his eventual retirement from officiating. Mourinho was given a two-game ban although it only came into effect after the second leg at Stamford Bridge which was one of the greatest games ever seen on the Fulham Road.

10:30Damien's up with a corner. It's towards John Terry. He's there!

10:37Captain's goal from John Terry! Chelsea and Barcelona were two of the best teams in Europe by that stage already. a year after they were going to play a really nice tyre as well. Barcelona won the league that year and they got ready to win the Champions League as well. They were ready for that. They had Deco, Juli, Samuel Eto 'o, Belletti, new players that season, and they were all very good and they made a great companion for Ronaldinho, who scored probably the most special goal I've ever seen that night at the Stamford Bridge. I have to say that the fourth goal of Chelsea comes after a blatant fault on Victor Valdés and should have been cancelled.

11:13So when Jose Mourinho again complains about the decisions that go against him, he seems to forget very selectively the decisions that go in his favour. If you don't remember how this game went, it's well worth going and checking out because it is an extraordinary match. Chelsea roar into this 3-0 lead after just 19 minutes. And then Barcelona begin to come back, a penalty converted by Ronaldinho, and then this piece of extraordinary magic which puts them through on away goals.

11:52James Horncastle: There are so many defenders around Ronaldinho, and he hits it from a standstill. And the ball is so kind of close to his right foot. It's almost like he was taking a penalty without any kind of run-up. And the trajectory of the shot, the solution he finds, is unlike any other goal I've seen before or since. Czech certainly wasn't expecting it, thought there was no way through for Ronaldinho from there. And it was just indicative of a player who was doing things that no one else could do at that time in European football. The reigning Ballon d 'Or holder at the time. And yeah, I think again, for Chelsea to overcome that team, that Barcelona team with that talent because they just signed Samuel Eto 'o as well and Eto 'o throughout this game is a threat they've got Deco who's a Champions League winner Ludovic Juli starts this game he was a Champions League finalist the year before then Iniesta comes on and Iniesta hits the post this was Mourinho as we saw the final whistle again just kind of playing to the crowd and being this kind of arch antagonist the guy who would predict lineups as you say but also it seemed that every substitution he made Every tactical setup he made was right.

13:12James Horncastle: Nothing could stop him. Nothing. Until a ghost goal. Well, John Terry's header put Chelsea through, and next up for them were Bayern Munich in the quarterfinals, where, again, they had a 4-2 win. Jose Mourinho now serving his touchline ban, hiding, famously, in the laundry basket at Stamford Bridge so that he could address his players. A 3-2 in Munich, and Chelsea were through to this classic encounter, the semi-final, with Liverpool. variously described as one of the most spirit-crushing bone encounters of recent times, or, more poetically, s*** on a stick. Goalless at the bridge, and then decided at Anfield by this goal that may or may not have happened.

13:52At the bridge pod, a Chelsea FC podcast, did Luis Garcia's ghost goal cross the line? Gerrard with space, helped in towards Baros, he's beaten, checked through it, the goalkeeper made contact, Luis Garcia wasn't across the line, Gallas hooked it away, goal! Again, I thought this at the time, and I will take this idea to my grave, because if the goal is not given, Cech walks and it's a penalty. Because he absolutely cleaned out Baros. So it's either also, do you want to face a penalty and play 90 minutes with 10 men, or would you take the goal? And I think it's fairly straightforward. And it's curious that the two main events in that game happen 90 minutes apart.

14:30But Chelsea had all the time to get back into the game. This is the Chelsea team that I think is something that does get overlooked. on the one hand there is one goal in two games in this semi-final but Chelsea failed to score after scoring all those goals against Barcelona and Bayern so I think Liverpool did a remarkable defensive job on them because they restricted them to probably three, four chances across the two games they managed to nullify Drogba who absolutely destroyed Bayern so I think Liverpool did an absolutely remarkable defensive job

15:05So, Liverpool through to the final, ushering in what would become a period of Premier League dominance. In European football's ultimate game, English sides in the final in each of the next five seasons. Mind you, as we enjoyed the strains of Ibambini Fanuou and Giuseppe Povia, the team they were facing in this final, Milan, had a pretty decent record themselves. Five-time winners on their second final in three years. James, that Milan side, do you miss them? Sheva, Crespo, Kaká, Maldini?

15:40James Horncastle: I think we all miss AC Milan at nights like this, don't we? Because they haven't enjoyed them for quite some time now, but particularly this period between 2003-2007, they were always there or thereabouts. I think particularly with Yap Stam coming in, so all of a sudden you had a defence which had Cafu, Stam and Nesta at centre-back and Maldini at left-back. I mean, come and have a go at that if you fancy it. It's very difficult to break down. The midfield as well, I think, very iconic with Pirlo pulling the strings and either Ambrosini, Gattuso and Seidorf there. And Kaká, Kaká, who came from nowhere.

16:18James Horncastle: You know, as Ancelotti said, first day of training, it was like a shaft of light just coming through clouds and just shining on this preppy schoolboy from Sao Paulo who was very much the kind of archetype of the modern kind of attacking midfielder. and Shever and Inzaghi. I think it's curious looking at their run to the final as well because they come up against Inter for a Milan derby in the quarterfinals. It's the second time in three years that there's been a Milan derby in the knockout stages and that will always be remembered as the flare game with the second leg where Esteban Cambiasso has a goal ruled out and it looks like Inter have got no chance because I think they're 3-0 down on aggregate at that stage and there's an away goal.

17:03James Horncastle: And all of a sudden, bottles start raining down from the Coupe de Venord on Dida's goal. And then flares start raining down on him just as he starts to kind of toss the bottles away. And one hits him and he goes down. He's lucky that it doesn't hit him in the face or the eye. It hits him in the shoulder. And the game is abandoned. Milan go through 5-0 on aggregate, which means we don't get Adriano, who'd been absolutely incredible for Inter in that season. And then they're quite fortunate, really, to go through against PSV, who reached the semi-final, the kind of revelation of that season, with Ambrosini scoring in the 91st minute, the away goal that kind of seized them through.

17:43James Horncastle: But this was a very, very good side. A side that had reached the final again for the second time in three years, because they'd been champions at Old Trafford, they were ready to claim another title in Istanbul.

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20:26This is the Totally Football Show, part of the Athletic FC podcast network. Rimi Rimi Lai Rimi Rimi Lai Rimi Rimi Lai Rimi Rimi Lai Rimi Rimi Lai Rimi Rimi Lai Rimi Lai Rimi Lai As the city by the Bosphorus rang out to the strains of Rimi Rimi Lai by Gulsarine, which of course had been Turkey's contestant in Eurovision that year, picking up two votes. Istanbul lay there in all its splendour. Sasha, you were there. What was the mood among supporters? the day of the game. Were you a little bit pinching yourself to find yourselves there? I think it was joy. We went there actually for a week. Back in those days you could still do that and it was relatively cheap.

21:16This was before the Champions League final went completely nuts when you couldn't find any accommodation or get any tickets or anything. So we spent a week in Istanbul and it was a magnificent place full of fish. The locals were genuinely quite excited to see so many Liverpool fans turn up. AC Milan fans only really came on the day. And I think you could feel it in there. And it was certainly, it was new ground for so many fans. A generation of fans who haven't seen a dominant Liverpool. And this was kind of a very exciting occasion for them as well. So when it came to the day, I think we were all really, really up for it.

21:47And at the same time, Milan fans were actually very nice and friendly, but I found they were a little bit condescending. I think the confidence that Ancelotti and Maldini had in their team winning, I think it's very much the Milan fans share that. They were clearly the favourites. They knew it. And I don't really think Milan fans themselves expected much of a resistance, to be honest. And they didn't get it to begin with. Within the first minute, Paolo Maldini had put the Rossoneri ahead. Second goal, more of a tap-in from Crespo. That's about 38 minutes in. And then he rounds the first half off with an absolutely magnificent finish.

22:21First of all, the sublime through ball from Ricky Kaká. and then Crespo just puts it over Jersey Dudek and it's done and dusted. We can all go home.

22:43The way Liverpool sets up to put perhaps more pressure on Pirlo rather than Cacca and left him with so much room to operate and I think the second goal summed it up because there's basically Cacca between the lines picking his ball to Shevchenko who slides at the cross to Crespo. And also the third goal, you know, he's there and Steven Gerrard isn't really sure how deep he's playing in the field. So Kaká sends Gerrard for the echo, drops his shoulder, turns the other way, plays the ball. He just had so much room. And I think even for us in the stands, we could see that you needed Haman on just to shackle this guy, just to stop this happening because he was getting so much room to play.

23:13It was beautiful to watch, obviously very painful, but it was like, I think perhaps the kids of today, they think Messi, Ronaldo, but when Kaká was at his peak, it was an absolutely outstanding, the best player in the world, probably for me at the time.

23:26James Horncastle: Yeah, undoubtedly. I mean, the third goal at the end of the first half is one of the great Champions League final goals in terms of that pass is like a knife through butter. And the finish, everything you'd want to cap off what a stunning move that was. But Cialotti's right to still claim this. I think that 45 minutes was some of the best football that has been seen in a Champions League final regardless of who won or who lost. Yeah, they were magnificent. And a lot has been made of Milan's mood at halftime, which we had a piece on The Athletic where they spoke to a lot of people involved at Liverpool, the players, the coaching staff.

24:08James Horncastle: And that story that came out, that Milan were already celebrating and already kind of jumping up and down and shouting that they'd won the cup is not true. They still went out hoping to see out the game and they still played well. but for a seven-minute period. So Cafu was the guy who I think kicked all that off by saying, yes, we were celebrating at half-time. And I think it's natural. Also, Steven Gerrard talks about Gattuso's smile as he left the field at the end of the first half. I think it's natural that when you're 3-0 up at half-time, you feel like you're well on your way. But then, interestingly, a lot of the Milan players, including Maldini, talk about there being actual squabbles in the dressing room rather than celebrations that Ancelotti tells everyone to shut up.

24:50What's going on meantime in the Liverpool dressing room is really significant. Rafa makes the switch, the one that you and other Liverpool supporters have been dying for. Didi Hamann coming on for Steve Finnan. And then, at least according to Jimmy Traore, Stephen Gerrard asks Rafa to leave the room so that he can say a few words. Sasha, this has been called one of the great halftime speeches of all time. You presumably have it tattooed somewhere in your body. I just find the whole concept quite odd I think in situations like this I think people sometimes maybe remember things slightly differently from each other just because of the heightened I don't know, tension, alertness about what's going on, about the pressure so I think perhaps the facts don't quite all connect up, but I think what we could take from it is the fact, yes, Traore was supposed to come off, but Finan had an injury, so Benitez had to change it and I think he changed it into quite a sensible formation, actually and it's, you know, the way it operated.

25:48Also, you get different accounts from different players in terms of how much they heard you'll never walk alone or didn't. I think Carragher is fairly adamant you can't really hear anything. But I think perhaps they heard it when they were coming out. And I think fans at some point just turned around and said, look, we've come all this way, we're 3-0 down. You know, we have to do something. That's to be a little bit defiant. And again, I had different impressions of that you'll never walk alone. You know, I think some said it was like a press. Some said it was a bit like a requiem. for me it was a bit like just before we started singing you'll never call someone started singing you're going to win 4-3 and for some reason I found that absolutely hilarious and it kind of just cheered me up in that moment and I think there was a certain line of thought that if we get a goal back in the first 15 minutes let's see what happens and in the end Liverpool got three Well that's exactly what Steven Gerrard supposedly said at half time if we score one in the first 15 minutes against these we'll win the game and lo and behold who pops up with the 3-1 It was Gerrard

26:46Great header. It's a really, really good header. But I don't think it's the most important one. I think the second one is more important.

27:00You get one, and this is the stage where you need quickfire, quickfire goals, and I think it's Carragher. I think perhaps in the same Athletic piece said that Liverpool had to score all those goals at the same time because a lot of those players, of course, played against Deportivo and they'd been playing so well up to that point and suddenly within a couple of minutes the whole dynamic changes. So when the third goal here went in it actually seemed fairly logical.

27:27It's funny you mention Deportivo because looking at them, particularly people like Nesta, you can just see it written all over their face that oh my God, it's happening again. Just over 12 months after the events there in the Riazor.

27:41James Horncastle: But they keep playing, I think, in contrast with that night. And they keep creating. And I think the moment that was the real turning point for Milan, obviously conceding three goals is a major setback, but they're still in the game, they still have a chance to win it. And Andriy Shevchenko has the chance to win it. And when Dudek makes that double save...

28:09James Horncastle: That is when everyone at Milan knows it's not a hard night. Bizarrely, even after being 3-0 up at halftime, the gods are against us tonight. And even when it came to that penalty, I think that was the mindset. What do we have to do to get past this Liverpool side? Because something up there is behind them tonight and we can't get past it. Shevchenko, who'd scored the winning penalty in the 2003 final, here, approaching the ball for his chance in the shootout, And it's just written all over his face, resignation. And Liverpool have done it. Sasha, what happens next? We're all around in tears, hugging and kissing.

28:50And just thinking about it right now.

28:55It's...

28:59Amazing. Seriously, it just came on. So good, man. Sasha was... That's extraordinary. That is extraordinary. I mean, there were plenty of tears on... The most beautiful moments you get as a fan. There you go. Yeah. It was an extraordinary comeback for the neutrals, for people who travelled there, who had an emotional interest in the team, for whom it was part of their life. I can't imagine what that set of circumstances, to go from that low to that high, in that shorter space of time, must have done. From an Italian perspective, you mentioned the gods, James, and it kind of took me back a little bit to Baggio's missed penalty in 1994.

29:42Just there was not even a sense of blame there and people talk about, you know, was Ancelotti blamed, etc. Yeah, there are questions about Milan's mentality, particularly after what had happened the previous season. But there was almost a sense like, well, sometimes life's just going to do that to you and there's nothing, nothing that you can do about it.

29:58James Horncastle: Yeah, and when they flew back, you know, there's this, not an altercation, but there's a group of fans waiting for the Milan team and they tell them that they're not worthy of the shirt, that they need to work hard, all these kind of classic tropes that you hear. And Maldini goes and confronts them and basically says, never tell me that I haven't given 100 % for this club. I bleed this club. This club is in my family. And that was, I think that one of the interesting things about that That is his relationship, certainly with the Kourouva, the ultras, almost ended there. And you see it a few years later when he retires.

30:40James Horncastle: Even when they go back to Athens, they win the Champions League in 2007 against Liverpool, which is huge for Milan. When he retires, you see those banners in the Kourouva at San Siro saying, Barresi is our captain, not you. And that fracture really came about post-Istanbul, really, for him standing up for that team, for what they had done in getting to the final and how well they played in the final, and to have that kind of knee-jerk reaction from an element of the support. But yeah, I think you're absolutely right in that there wasn't a sense of blame for that team for the most part within the media and the wider Milan support.

31:21Yeah, I would say that Milan was a little bit like the Real Madrid of this decade in the sense that they prioritise the best possible success rather than the day-to-day performances. And that Milan took that to probably the most exaggerated points because they won two Champions League and only one Serie A title. I mean, that is very disproportionate. But at the same time, if you look at the 0-4-0-5 season... Sasha, you're back. Yeah, sorry, thanks for talking. No, no. I genuinely started speaking about that moment in age one. That was really nice. What makes it all come back for you, Sasha? Oh, just the emotion, the friends.

32:01Just the whole, the emotional rollercoaster of a game that will never be repeated. I've never experienced anything like that ever again. I've seen great Liverpool wins. I've seen them beat Barcelona. But in terms of going 120 minutes, maybe even the whole concept of that whole week, it's just something that will never be repeated. But if I go to my point about Milan, Milan were actually in the middle of a very tense and tight title race with Juventus that season. I mean, in fact, it was such a tight race, such a competitive league, that a year later they declared that there will be no champion.

32:31And perhaps they were up against teams in Serie A that they physically could not compete every year on both fronts because their competition was so high in Italy at the time. I mean, if you look at Liverpool, for example, in 04-05, they knocked the league on the head throughout those playoffs. They actually directly prioritised. where I don't think perhaps Milan could have sustained it on both fronts. There you go then. For 114 minutes of the 120, Milan had been the better side. But that six minutes was enough to seal an extraordinary win. Liverpool took the trophy home permanently, but back in the Premier League, finished fifth below Everton, level on points with big Sam's Bolton.

33:17Didn't you end up pushing Everton out of the qualifying spots as a result? No. So what happened, that was actually quite controversial at the time, because the year before, when Arsenal and Chelsea were going deep into the Champions League, the FA made a decision on 10th of March that should one of these teams win and not finish in the top four, they will take the fourth spot. And what Liverpool were very sore about is in early May, it was said that Everton will take the fourth spot. So there was clearly an inconsistency. Of course, Alvaro, you'd know about the time Real Madrid got in instead of Saragota.

33:48So effectively, I think at the time, it was left to the national FA to decide who takes the fourth spot. What the FA, I think, did, which was, I think, quite unfair, is they basically had UEFA over the barrel about this whole thing. I think there was no way UEFA would not re-admit Liverpool. They had to find a way to let them back in and they ended up changing the rules. So effectively, I think England forced a fifth place upon UEFA, which I don't think should have happened. Many thanks to Sasha, Alvaro, James and producer Charlie, and of course yourself, listener. We'll be back on Thursday with some transfer talk, women's Euros and InterTotally Cup action for now.

34:22From all of us here, it's goodbye.

34:49The Athletic FC Podcast Network.

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