What next for Man City? What next for Ronaldo?

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2:19Liam Twomey: We built this city on sham contracts and artificially inflated deals. Can't she? It's just another Thursday on a tarred old street. We've got another Totally Football Show for you.

2:35Liam Twomey: Today, we get more from the Man City mess, the club who put the sham into champagne football. And now, quite possibly, the pain too. Plus, Nations League, yeah? England v Croatia, just like at the World Cup. France versus Italy, not so much. And lots more in this Totally Football Show. Thursday, the 1st of October, we have with us in the studio Liam Toomey. Hi, Liam. Pleasure to be back. Pleasure to have you back. Tom Williams. Hello, James. Also a pleasure. Yes, likewise for us and that. Tim Spears also with us. What's up? Hi, James. What's up? What's up? Ooh, throwback. What's up, your dog? I raced through those introductions because we also are joined briefly by Matt Slater, who is possibly the busiest person in the entire athletic organization on account of, Well, I think you know the reason.

3:26Liam Twomey: This extended international break has become very much an extended Sham City scandal break featuring Nations League football. And Matt's been all over it and very graciously has joined us to talk through some of the latest developments. Good morning to you, Matt. That's a very nice intro. Good morning. Since our last show, I think the big thing has been Tuesday when the Premier League published their extended verdict or their reasons for the verdict from the independent panel, which revealed that the club are alleged to have falsified their income by more than£900 million. Whoops. The amount shouldn't make a difference, but I think it probably does.

4:08Liam Twomey: And I think what also was extraordinary about Tuesday was the language that the Premier League used when talking about one of its biggest clubs. Yeah, there's an awful lot to go at, wasn't there? I mean, yes, if we go on the Premier League statement, yes, Richard Masters said, how did he put it? That it was a systematic attempt to breach rules for the best part of a decade. And then we had the Independent Commission's ruling itself, which I've read it a few times. I think it says sham seven or eight times. And it's a great word, isn't it? Sham. And it's just a slightly amusing word. But it is actually quite a legal term, to be fair.

4:47I mean, it is a very specific. It's saying, you know, this contract is artificial. So they weren't just doing it to be funny. And these rulings are often quite dry. This is only the executive summary, by the way. This is just 40 pages worth. they've already told us that the the evidence bundle at the hearing had an index that ran I think was it to 750 pages the verbatim transcripts from the witnesses were 7 000 pages so I think they've done as a small mercy here with just the executive summary but within there I think what came across to me was um was some anger some annoyance on the part of the panel that they had been lied to.

5:32Arbitration panels don't normally say that. This is not Rumpole of the Bailey. This is supposed to be people coming to a private hearing. And yes, you argue your side really, really as hard as you can. And there's no doubt that Man City have been doing that for a long time now, and the Premier League in turn as well. But for panels to say, some of the people that spoke to us, We don't think they told the truth, i.e. they lied. It's quite unusual. I've read dozens of these, and I don't remember that. I remember coded language around, well, we sort of disagreed with what they had to say, or I don't know, memories differ or interpretations differ.

6:16No, the panel said we were lied to.

6:19Liam Twomey: Matt, the club protests their innocence. One of their biggest sponsors has today made noises about possible legal action and asked why they weren't called to give evidence. They are appealing. Short of them being found innocent in that process, though, I'm now at the point where I think, is there any way that Man City can continue in the Premier League with this ownership? They've been accused of lying by the league. They've been accused of sham contracts, sham agreements, artificially inflating, misstated accounts, concealment, things clearly intended to circumvent the Premier League rules, multiple breaches of duties of cooperation and utmost good faith.

7:00Liam Twomey: Is there any way that the league can just hand a point penalty and go, yeah, but you can continue. You did all this for 10 years, but on you go. Well, I think it's really interesting you've gone there. You've gone to forced divestment. So that is, can this ownership group carry on? I think that's really interesting that you've gone. I'm thinking the same. And I'm wondering, and I am hearing that as well from the industry. So views on this have kind of ebbed and flowed over the years, and it has been years. You know, it wasn't that long ago. I genuinely thought the consensus in the kind of Premier League room was, you know, where's this going?

7:35This is so expensive and this is becoming a bit embarrassing that every season we start and we ask, you know, journos ask, you know, when are we going to get a hearing? And Paul Richard Masters can't say, I don't know. It's, you know, I'm frustrated too. And oh, look, we've just handed them the trophy and they're the favourites again. And as Man City have got bigger, and they have got bigger, and they are now, you know, they are not the sort of upstarts. They're not the disruptors. They're part of the establishment. I have thought at times that the mood was, let's just put this behind us. This isn't good for the league.

8:10Can we agree something? And of course, Man City didn't want to agree, by the way. So there was always a flaw in that argument. But I definitely thought the mood was, can we move on? And a lot of people have moved on as well. So a lot of individuals have moved on, the people most angry, the execs around the table. Personalities have changed. What I think the last week has changed is the anger's come flooding back. Because the language of the ruling, the extent of the cheating is worse. It was at the end of the scale, right? It was, well, you know, is it the De Spiegel stuff? Is it Mancini's contract?

8:46Is it a bit that Yaya Tory image, right, stuff? No, it's bigger. It's bigger than all that. And, you know, and I do sense people are thinking, well, it is a relegation. That's our kind of minimum now. They have to be relegated. But then I am thinking, is that enough? And I know other people are thinking, is it enough? Do you do multi-year discount deductions? Okay, that's quite interesting. Does that keep them down for more than a season? because everyone's assuming they bounce straight back. Everyone's looking at the Rangers example, the Saracens example from rugby. They're looking at Juve. They're thinking, what is fair here?

9:20We don't want to strip titles apparently, though it does appear to work in Olympic sport for me. So there's a lot of debate about what is fair. But I'm sort of with you. Unless they can, I do have to say that, unless they can overturn this on appeal, which I think is unlikely, but is a possibility. so we have to acknowledge that then how do they continue how do they continue around the room because the cheating is so egregious and as ever it's the cover up that is the problem and I think if this was North American sport if this was the NFL or the NBA which are run like private clubs like country clubs by the way they would be blackballed the other lot would say I'm sorry that lot they have to sell and we've seen this half a dozen times over the last 10-15 years when there's been bad behaviour it's often bullying or racism or something really, really bad, but an owner has been forced to sell.

10:13Now, the funny thing is what's just happened. We now have an independent football regulator that can do that. So previously that wasn't in the arsenal of sanctions. The EFL couldn't do it. The EFL tried to do it, for example, at Reading with Dire Young, an absolutely calamitous owner, but they couldn't do it. And there have been lots of cases where, particularly in the EFL, where clubs have been so poorly run, fans groups, politicians, journos have said, come on, can you not just take the club from them? And they've been prevented from doing so by UK company law. That's changed. The independent football regulator has the powers to force divestment.

10:52Is that where we are? So I could go on and on here because Andy Berman, the Prime Minister of the country, has made it pretty clear he doesn't think that's a good idea.

11:00Liam Twomey: One other really puzzling element of this is the fact that Man City, who the story is, were actually let known about the verdict or the likelihood of the content of the verdict back in the summer and then proceeded to spaff something like half a billion on new players and continue to maintain their innocence. Why is it that they are taking this bullish stance? Why is it that they haven't cut a deal, Matt? Is there any chance that they do have irrefutable evidence of their comprehensive body of irrefutable evidence? Yeah, well, that's been their stance from the beginning, going back to the De Spiegel leaks in late 2018.

11:39And it was certainly their stance at CAS, the Court of Arbitration for Sport, in their dispute with UEFA. And they won there. I know people say, well, did they win? They still got fined for non-cooperation. Man City treated it like a win. They were facing a two-year ban from European competition, and they walked out of CAS celebrating, I can assure you. So it felt like a win to them, and it felt like a defeat to UEFA. Certainly many people at UEFA who thought they didn't fight a very good case at Cass. So anyway, irrefutable evidence. I think what we're coming to here is, and they've been paring the way for this for a while.

12:13There's an element of face saving here. There's an element of national pride that the irrefutable evidence is basically government officials, very important people in the UAE, saying this didn't happen. And in the UAE, that would be enough it would be enough for when a journalist when a lawyer when a rival says hold on a minute what's going on here i think you've done something wrong no he didn't that's our irrefutable evidence and i suppose they'll say yeah no it's not just that you know we went to cas and uefa said well look at these emails how else would anybody read these emails this this you know a neutral someone on the clapper momly bus would say well isn't this a Isn't this a great big scam here?

13:00How else could I interpret these emails between functionary back in Man City going, how on earth do I account for this? Who do I invoice, by the way? This money's coming in. What do I do? Asking a senior for, asking a superior for advice here. They're saying, well, yeah, but it didn't happen that way. Or, and this is interesting, there has been a little subtle change. At Cass, they were very clear there's been no public money. There's been no public money. That thing that you think happened in the emails didn't happen. That money that came through Etihad, for example, because it's the biggest case, only came from Etihad.

13:31And they got the chief executive of Etihad to say, yeah, it was our money. We loved it. Amazing sponsorship. Us and Man City, Simpatico Forever, we've both benefited from this deal. And Cass went, yeah, okay, that sounds pretty good. They're now saying, subtly saying, well, no, you've all misinterpreted what we were doing in Abu Dhabi. Yes, the government gives Abu Dhabi companies money for sponsorship purposes because it is a sort of common enterprise. We want Abu Dhabi companies, be they the mobile phone company, our investment company, our property company, our tourism company, our airline, to sponsor and to grow their businesses.

14:12And it is that money that has flowed back into Man City via Etihad, for example. So they're saying, you know, what's the problem here? It is those companies money. All right. Yes, it's come from the government, but it's their money to choose where they where they want to spend it. You know what what what sandwich boards they want to put their name on. That is not what they said at Cass. So they're contradicting themselves. So I do feel there's a story that they're kind of looking for, I think, to save face. And the irrefutable evidence, I think, is very much for domestic audiences. is i think it's very much for also governmental relations and i suspect that they're going to go the ship will go down with them saying forever and ever we had irrefutable evidence it's this card that we that and the fans are saying well well yeah they're going to play it eventually they've played it guys they've been playing it for four or five years the panel saw the card and went

15:11Liam Twomey: we don't believe you that's where we're at yeah as you say uh for an sriana for example saying the decision was based on a Premier League conspiracy theory, which we shall see. The appeal will happen. Matt, I know you've got to get off. No doubt there'll be further instalments. Thank you very much, though, for bringing us that insight today. You're welcome. Matt Slater. Wow. This story's really moved on since we first... I kind of pine for the days of the 115 banter. Now it just seems almost apocalyptic, tick the prospects for club, but also the damage to the league. Is there any fair way of sorting all this out, Liam?

15:52Well, they could take the appeal to the Clapham omnibus. I've just learned that. That would be quite an interesting turn for the story. I've been thinking about, as I think we all have, potential punishments in this case, if the verdict stands. That's the inevitable caveat. and yes there has to be an unprecedented sporting sanction to match the scale of the offending but i think what you went through with with matt is is right that the meat of the punishment has to be focused at ownership executive level and that might practically be the hardest thing to do but these were ownership executive level infractions and i come back to the fact that the premier league ultimately okay it's not quite the nba nfl private members club but it is a collective enterprise as much as these clubs are rivals and there are grievances and alliances and cliques they are ultimately commercial partners in this big money-making phenomenally successful global product and what Abu Dhabi United Group are alleged to have done here or have been proven to have done here by an independent panel is lied to the rest of the league and lied to the league itself the regulatory body so I don't see practically or ethically how the other clubs could look at them as reliable partners going forward even if they're relegated for a season, you know, they'd be back, you'd have to deal with them again.

17:29Will they work within any collective framework or submit to any kind of regulation? There's no sign of that in their stance right now.

17:39Liam Twomey: Man, you know, loads of people have got in touch. Galway Boyce says they accelerated the club through financial doping, so they should be decelerated as a club by deducting 20 points a year for the next five years. Another suggestion was let the Glazers buy them. That's good. don't hate it Todd Bowley's available I think like Liam has a really good point about how it needs to be sort of centred on the owners the punishment but I don't know then you hear what the Prime Minister says yesterday and it's obviously really important what he says and thinks but he was very much I'd be very concerned if the owners have to leave here you know he then went on to thank them for what they've done for Manchester and with the stadium and the training campus and what not and then he went on to make this comparison with Everton which is i don't know if you've heard he is an everton fan i kind of said you know uh people shouldn't rush people rush to judgment about everton and said they were guilty and we shouldn't do the same here he literally said it's frustrating when people rush to judgment and this judgment's taken eight years years you know it's ludicrous when you think about it um and it is concerning when you know the most powerful person in the land is saying that you know so soon afterwards and then you know a quick sort of google on this reveals that in May the UK agreed a 3.7 billion trade deal with six golf sets including the UAE.

19:00So there's obviously make of that what you will. I find that quite concerning. I kind of feel like Andy Burnham said what he said more with his former mayor of Manchester hat on than with his PM hat on. But yeah, as you say, I mean, this isn't a judgment that has been rushed. It's been the least rushed judgment in the history of English football. It's a peculiar contribution, I think. And obviously what he says matters. You look at the last owner to leave the Premier League in sort of acrimony circumstances, Roman Abramovich. That was under influence from the UK government that he was forced to sell up.

19:35So is this going to be the opposite if Burnham's in favour of City's owners and wants them to stay and invest? Is that going to lead to a completely opposite judgment to what we got from in Abramovich's case? The other bigger aspect of this that exists outside of football is if it came down to a vote of the other clubs about whether to, say, expel Manchester City from the league or any kind of vote on the ownership, how many of these owners want to preserve relations with Abu Dhabi and don't want to burn those particular bridges? There are so many considerations here beyond the key football matter and the key regulatory matter.

20:16And this is, yeah, these are all kind of inevitable ripple effects of allowing a kind of arm's length state arrangement to own a football club.

20:25Liam Twomey: Well, these were always the concerns as well, particularly the relations with Abu Dhabi and the economic fallout of a fraction between, say, English interests and the interests of that nation. But what we do know is that for now, the Premier League has pressed ahead with this, has published an extraordinarily strong condemnation of the club. And now we wait to see what happens with the appeal, which apparently is going to run concurrently with the deliberations over the penalties. Lots of people also writing in about that, whether the titles that if they are revoked should be assigned somewhere else.

21:00Liam Twomey: Donald Pilling, who thinks a Liverpool fan, says City have cheated for that long, will benefit for longer. They robbed me of the three best days of my life. I want my titles. The players deserve those titles. It's a tricky one, Tom. Yeah, I mean, it's been interesting to see the reaction of some of the players and managers who would theoretically stand to benefit if City had titles stripped from them and awarded to other clubs. There's been a bit of playful banter from people like Rio Ferdinand saying, I want the title that I lost out on in 2012. Most of them, though, I mean, Wayne Rooney said this.

21:41I think, you know, professional athletes, if you're going to have a trophy in your cabinet, you want to have won it. You want to have got the points in the bag that you needed to get over the line and had that moment, that feeling of we have gone out and earned this and won this on the pitch. But if you don't have that, do you not want second best? The thing is, I mean, no one will look at those as, I mean, City didn't legitimately win those titles. We know that now. But did the teams that finished second legitimately win them? I mean, no, they didn't.

22:14Liam Twomey: There's no accusations. So, no, there isn't. But I suspect, I think the fair, if we, you know, if it does end up with titles being stripped, which I think, you know, and again, depending on what happens with City's appeal, I think that would be the, you know, a fair outcome. the fairest thing to do might be you just leave those titles unattributed, which is unsatisfying. But to retrospectively confer league titles on teams over 10 years after the season's concluded would feel a bit unsatisfying. Yeah, I agree, but then I'm not supporting a team that missed out by a point twice to Man City equally.

22:54They don't consider themselves rightful champions now anyway. Like, I mean, they don't have the, it's not written on their honours board, but they will consider that they were cheated out of the title.

23:05Liam Twomey: And most people will agree with them. Perhaps as important, or maybe even more so than who ends up winning with the title in their Palmares, is teams that lost points and ended up going down, for example, or missed out on Europe, for example, and have suffered enormous economic repercussions. The whole thing is like someone's baked a cake with stolen eggs and now how do you give those eggs back? And we've all been eating the cake, Tim. I was just thinking that as well. Exactly that. But that's why it's got to happen ASAP. And of course it won't, but the punishments need to be meted ASAP because whoever goes down in 18th this season, they can immediately say, well, City shouldn't be in this league given what they've done.

23:48So we'll sue you for X amount of money because we've been relegated to the championship. It doesn't matter how much money. I mean, yeah, I think in terms of awarding trophies to others, I don't know about that. But I think that they ultimately should be stripped of what they've won. What doesn't sit right with me is that, you know, they're currently the fourth most successful English club of all time in terms of titles won. And if you take away the titles in this period, they're joint 14th with the likes of Huddersfield and Derby, which just shows you, you know, where they came from and what they've done has elevated them to this level.

24:20which we all know now to be false. Can you imagine the kind of reception they're going to get from opposition fans for the rest of the season? Where's their next game? Anfield is their first game, which is going to be an absolute bear pit. And they are now a pariah club, and they will be. I mean, up and until whichever sanctions are decided upon are announced, they will be a pariah club. They will be accused of being cheats. and it's not something I think the English game would have ever witnessed before. And even beyond that, that will remain a stain on the name of the club unless they somehow manage to overturn the verdicts.

25:02But for as long as Manchester City exists as a sporting institution, I mean, it's just... Do you think a change of ownership wipes the slate clean? I mean, I think, I mean, and looking at the response from City, you know, and as we record, we're expecting that an appeal is going to go in before the deadline tomorrow. I think we've all seen that slightly curious video statement from Ferran Soriano. They are still sticking to that message of, no, this is all a complete conspiracy and a miscarriage of justice, and we're going to prove our innocence. And they've clearly decided to go as far as they can with that.

25:33But I think the only way that Citi can earn forgiveness is probably either for just mere culpas and apologies across the board, Hold our hands up. Yeah, we did it. This is how we did it. We're going to cooperate. We're going to take our punishment. But that will take years.

25:54Liam Twomey: They could write a book saying, if we did it, here's how. Yeah. But on the whole irrefutable evidence thing, they've given all their evidence over the course of eight years. What's this swag bag of other irrefutable stuff? Did you remember to bring the irrefutable? Oh, God, I knew we forgot something. We'll bring it in the appeal. Yeah. Well, they're not actually allowed to present new evidence in the appeal, are they, without the permission of the Premier League? I believe that's the way the appeal process works. So if you haven't put your best foot forward, it might be a bit late for that now.

26:27I think one other aspect of this as well, which I think is an underrated part of the challenge that City face from here on out, is making sure that they don't lose their own fans and their own players and staff in terms of having them turn against them. because I think we're already seeing increasing amounts of anger and questioning from Manchester City fans. City fans who were previously inclined, understandably, to give the ownership that delivered this golden age the benefit of the doubt. A lot of those people have now been forced to reassess by just how emphatic this verdict has been. And players are going to talk about it.

27:10They're going to question it. What is Enzo Mareska thinking that he's walked into?

27:13Liam Twomey: Players who potentially signed or had contract extensions since apparently the club knew the verdict was incoming. And as you say, people like Beto Figueroa wrote in saying, I think titles should be stripped, points deduction off relegation, and I'm a City fan. Holding it off just drags the shame further. I also wonder about, we heard about Etihad making noises about taking action from a defending city point of view. But the players' sponsors, they're going to be tarnished by this. Sponsors of players, what view are they going to take of having their players become part of a pariah club? I don't know.

27:47It's a real Pandora's box that has been opened. Interesting to say about being tarnished. I was fascinated by Pep Guardiola's statement, you know, which felt, I was surprised he'd said anything. He doesn't need to say anything. It's not like he's a manager at another club that's going to be asked at a press conference next week about this. He got out at the perfect time. Why is he saying anything? Exactly. But to come out so strongly in favour, you know, this is my club, we'll get through this, that kind of stuff. You know, this is going to obviously implicate him even further in this, further down the line.

28:16There's nothing specifically on him yet. But, you know, he's really doubling down and associating himself with them even more. And Tom's comments about anger I find fascinating because we've been so numb to City over years through all their success. and sort of apathetic to them. And yeah, they're up there on this pedestal. There hasn't been anger towards them, but there obviously will be now for different reasons.

28:37Liam Twomey: Indeed. All right, well, we'll see what Friday brings. Then we're back on Saturday after the England-Croatia game. So no doubt we'll squeeze in a bit of an update there. But for now, let's park the Man City mess and move on to Nations League.

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31:11Liam Twomey: Hey, we did a totally extra all about Sesc Fabregas. Cesc Fabregas Arsenal legend Chelsea legend You were part of that Liam I was Very much enjoyed the conversation It was a good excuse As we mentioned To go back and watch All of Fabregas' Premier League assists How many are there? 111 111 33 minutes it was Yeah Excellent Anyway you can Enjoy the fruits of Liam's Diligence In that Totally Extra Which is out now Loads of other top Totally Extras Also available Including one on Zinedine Zidane Yes, that rings well. With you, Tom. Yeah, and also a very enjoyable conversation. Yeah, you know. How would it not be?

31:54Liam Twomey: Anyway, amid all the Man City stuff this week, we can reveal that England played in the Nations League. This was on Tuesday night against Czechia. And they won 2-0. Same two scorers that choose from the Spain game. Tim, you're looking at me like you want to tell us about Czechia, England. Yes. It was a strange game. It was shaping up to be a really good sort of proper match. You know, Czech Republic under their new Czechia, Czech Republic. I'm so confused. You know, the Athletics say Czech Republic. That's our style. Yeah, I think so. That's right, isn't it? Liam hasn't written about Czech Republic recently.

32:33No, I do not have an answer for you. Okay. Anyway, those guys, they sort of, you know. Always from Prague. They had a really sort of positive attitude. It was shaping up to be a really good match, but the red card sort of changed everything. They should have scored early on. England were ropey, making defensive errors at the back. And then the red card actually sort of made it into a bit of a World Cup group stage game where it's probably beneficial to England in the long run in terms of breaking down a very deep line defence. And there were some interesting themes to emerge from it. Trent Alexander-Arnold was sort of maybe one of the standouts with his assists, his first start for England in two years.

33:10But I don't know. I don't think we learned a huge amount about Trent Alexander-Arnold playing against the Czech Republic, you know, and bending over a beautiful cross at almost like a 90 degree angle. It was amazing. But it is fascinating to me that he's been overlooked for so long on football ability. You know, when you look at like some of the players that Tuchel took to the World Cup, he took Dan Byrne for his head and ability, you know, in the last 10 minutes of games. He took Ivan Toney to the World Cup to take penalties. So to leave this guy at home, Trent Alexander-Arnold, you know, the best, the most exquisite passer of a ball that England have got, So just, yeah, I still can't really compute that.

33:47And the same for a few other players. You know, Lewis Hall had a great game. And you're like, where was this guy at the World Cup when England just sort of needed a regular orthodox left back? So, yeah, I feel like Tuchel's sort of learning from some of the mistakes that he's made. And England look okay at the moment. Yeah, it's been a good couple of games.

34:06Liam Twomey: How happy should England fans be about where they are based on this performance, Liam? I mean how much is Nations League going to move the needle in the mood of England fans really I think I think they're still pretty largely determined by the World Cup the way it all ended particularly the way Tuchel didn't exactly cover himself in glory in the in the final 20 minutes of that Argentina game so these results the results like that can be a bit of a palate cleanser I guess but we're in a unique rhythm with international football where the key judgments are every two years, aren't they? And we're kind of two years away from seeing Tuchel being definitively judged again.

34:51Okay. I have to say, Gordon was great again. Right. And he's really sort of coming to the fore. It's hard to believe that he was actually dropped during the World Cup. And he's now sort of become, you know, one of those sort of must picks. He looks different. He looks like he's grown in stature and company.

35:05Liam Twomey: He talked about the different way that Barcelona's style of football has enabled him to play and how he's responded and really kind of blossomed with that. He just looks so much more varied in what he's capable of on the pitch. I think he could be a little bit one-dimensional at Newcastle, but you can see he's grown in stature, he's grown in confidence. He's been a decent performer for some time now, but now is the time to really take games by the scruff of the neck and become a match winner at the top level, which it looks like he's doing to me. He's kind of a sleeper hit of a footballer, isn't he, Anthony Gordon?

35:34I came through at Everton, obviously, you know, talented player, goes to Newcastle. Well, yeah, decent amount of money as well. Let's see how he gets on. And all of a sudden he's starting games for Barcelona and England. And he's like one of the, you know, one of the leading attacking players in world football at the moment, you'd have to say. I remember when Gordon was still at Everton and Chelsea were being linked with a£60 million move for him. And I wrote an entire piece saying this is completely unmoored from the reality of what he's done as a player. And at that time, there wasn't really much evidence that he was, that that was his future, that even projecting forward that he was going to have this trajectory.

36:10Although he's always had this kind of trajectory in mind for himself. Like from a very young age, the first interviews he gave at Everton, he was aiming for the absolute top. And I think, you know, people found that slightly unusual and surprising. And you wonder what kind of impact the validation of joining a club like Barcelona has as well. on just clearly he always had that belief, but having that belief realised by now playing for one of the best teams in Europe with some of the best players in the world, he must carry himself slightly differently now.

36:44Liam Twomey: Well, next up for England and, as you see, Gordon R. Croatia on Saturday evening. Croatia, who on Tuesday it was, took on Spain. How did that go? Well, within 70 seconds of the opening kick-off, Spain had already completed 26 passes and scored a goal. Croatia hadn't touched the ball once yet. It continued in that vein. Croatia did pull one back, but then Spain, much as they had against England, immediately responded and ended up 4-1 winners. Just on the identity of the Croatia goal scorer, who's someone I'm really looking forward to seeing against England the other night. Croatia, they're a funny one.

37:21You're kind of waiting for this golden generation to retire, but they're not. I remember writing a piece after the Euros that Modric, Perisic, Kovacic and Kramaric, surely that's the end and then they go on to the World Cup and you think surely after the World Cup it's a good time to buy out but they're still going Modric ace 41 Perisic 37 Kovacic 32 and Kramaric 35 combined caps 6-0-2 between four players still there but they do have some young players coming through who are really interesting obviously Vuscovic at the back who's made a really good start with Brighton Batarina and Suicic doing well out in Italy and then the chap who scored in Spain Dion Drina Belgio who did okay sort of early in his career and played a couple of times for Croatia and then moved to the Bundesliga with Augsburg but scored five goals in two seasons didn't do much well he's now moved back to Croatia and last season this passed me by he scored 38 goals in 48 games he's 6 foot 5 he's beefy he scored 9 in 6 this year and he's back in the squad made his third cap against Spain and scored a header from a Paris' cross.

38:32Wow. So he should start against England, hopefully. And yeah, looking forward to seeing him.

38:36Liam Twomey: Very interesting. It's like a case of hives, you know. The old itches won't go away. And here are some new itches. The squad. Yeah. This game, of course, is a repeat of that first group game for England in the World Cup. 4-2, Tom. Yes. Do you remember that? Sunshine, swimming pools. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that does ring a bell faintly. Yeah. I mean, it feels like another lifetime. It does, doesn't it? In some ways it was. Many ways. In many ways. A cracking game, though, which promises for Saturday. I think so. I feel like Croatia kind of made that game, certainly in the early minutes, by their approach.

39:11They really pressed England high and forced the game into almost like a constant transitional state. I'm not sure if they'll do that again. Yeah, it made us think England were going to be the most exciting team at the World Cup, do you remember? Yeah. Every game's going to be like a Bundesliga game or a Premier League game. Yeah. And then it was not.

39:30Liam Twomey: It was not. We did get the halftime chat from Anthony Barry, though, who talked about England being fearful. Yeah. And England certainly went out after that and had chance after chance. I have the numbers here. Ooh, nine shots in the first 12 minutes of the second half. What happened to those Anthony Barry halftime chats? Did they get slightly watered down a little bit? It became such an event. There wasn't one on Tuesday, was there? Was there? I think it was only a World Cup thing, maybe. Oh, right. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Okay. UEFA didn't negotiate quite the same level of access I see alright well we're looking forward to that game on Saturday and as mentioned we will be doing a live podcast if I didn't mention this let me say it now we're going to be doing a live stream pretty swiftly after the final whistle at Rijeka so do join us for that on YouTube and many thanks to everyone who was with us last Saturday the situation in the group Spain on maximum points 6.

40:28Liam Twomey: England and Croatia tied right now on 3 points and Czechia, the boys from Prague, are nothing whatsoever. Anonymous you writing into The Athletic, just on the subject of Spain, and saying as a Spaniard watching the national team since the late 1960s I'm starting to believe this iteration is better than the glorious 2008-12 team. The reason is interesting because Coach De La Fuente doesn't have the constraints that Del Bosque had, which was that he had to stick Xavi Alonso into the Barcelona midfield because he had to balance the number of Barcelona and Madrid players in the squad back then. By now, and we saw this at the World Cup, Madrid have got no involvement or only a passing involvement in the Spanish national side and that's the way they want to do it.

41:16Liam Twomey: So De La Fuente is free to just roll with a Barcelona core and it's doing pretty well for them. Interesting. So the only thing that can derail them is the Catalan independence movement, is what you're saying. Yes. Yeah. Anyway. All right. Who does Spain got? They have got Tichia on Saturday. Very good. I definitely feel this Spain team were definitely more multifaceted than the great team of kind of 08-12. But I guess that team felt quite revolutionary because it was like tiki-taka. They were doing something completely new. So I think even if this Spain team were to outstrip the achievements of that one, and they're only one tournament away from, you know, equaling what that Spain team did, I guess because you don't have like the novelty element, I suspect they perhaps won't be remembered.

42:08Right. I mean, the midfield, the Busquets, Xavi and the Esther midfield. I guess now you think about the Spain team, you think more about the forward players. And Fembergas as well. Ancestralbos, of course. Africa, yeah. Yeah.

42:21Liam Twomey: No, but that's a very good point. The fact that they did that extraordinary triple of massive tournaments after 44 years. Yeah. Amazing. Amazing. Anyway, there you go. That's Spain. Hey, how about we chat about Wales and other nations up next?

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45:23Liam Twomey: Nations League, everybody. Since last Saturday's show, a lot has happened. First of all, in Nations League B1, Scotland had their first home game on Saturday under Sebastian Pocagnoli. It didn't go well. They lost Jack Hendry to a red card after just 11 minutes. Curious this one. He got a second yellow. Well, a red for denial of goal-scoring opportunity, having not been sent off when it was going to be a penalty because of double jeopardy. But then when it was decreed to have taken place the foul outside the area, the referee went, oh, well, okay, so you have a free kick. But that means that you can go for denial of goal-scoring opportunity.

45:59Liam Twomey: Bittersweet. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, the Swiss won 3-0. Scotland have a point. The Swiss have maximum six. Scotland on Saturday take on bottom of the table North Macedonia. Up in League A, Wales, Tom, are in a very interesting group. What night was it you got beat by Denmark? Sunday. Sunday night. Well, that same night, Portugal went to Norway, went to Oslo, and beat the Norwegians 2-1. Wow. An impressive result. Cristiano Ronaldo wasn't so much outstanding as, well, sitting out. He spent the entire game on the bench. He spent quite a long time warming up. Oh, did he? Extravagantly warming up. Extravagantly.

46:46In the second half in particular. Rather than standing at the edge of the technical area, doubling out instructions. Yeah. And then at the final whistle, he walked down the tunnel.

46:55Liam Twomey: Right. And then said to the press, it's for the good of the team, and that's what's most important. I'm here if the coach needs me oh no no he didn't he had a crisis meeting the next day with the coach and the Portuguese FA and then walked out of camp yeah and he said in due time I will tell all Portuguese people the truth about the reasons that led to my departure from the national team to which I've always dedicated myself fair enough it sounds like it right now is the time he finishes to wish Portugal and all my teammates good luck without exception. Why without exception? What's that doing at the end of that sentence?

47:35I mean, who knows? Like, this could be it for Ronaldo as an international footballer. You know, Georges Jesus, new head coach, partly brought in, I think, because he'd managed Ronaldo successfully at Al Nasser and is clearly seen as being a coach with broad enough shoulders and enough authority to manage someone who, you know, as potentially problematic as Ronaldo. And Jesus gave a very unapologetic press conference after the Norway game where he said, look, I'm the coach, I make the decisions and no one's going to influence that. Ronaldo's obviously not happy. You can't say that Portugal looked any worse without him.

48:20I mean, he played against Wales. I think he, I'm not sure whether he completed the 90 minutes,

48:24Liam Twomey: but he started, squandered some quite presentable chances, one in particular, scored a goal that was then ruled out for offside. And yeah, then in his absence, they go and win away against a very dangerous Norway team, Jav Felix, who's been one of the real beneficiaries of Georgesius' appointment, scoring for the second game running. Gonzalo Ramos, who was playing instead of Ronaldo at the point of the attack scored what proved to be the winner. So you didn't really feel like Portugal needed Ronaldo. And we've often thought in recent years, do they need him at all? And I guess maybe we've now finally arrived at that point.

49:07And it's curious that if this is to be the end for Ronaldo as a Portugal player, and that might not be the case, but if it is, incredible that it's happening during the same international break when Lionel Messi is making his farewell as an Argentina player. in a full stadium with all the pomp and ceremony that you would expect. And they're potentially bowing out of the international scene in the same week. I feel like Jesus has obviously seen what we've all seen for years now. It reminds me of when Michael Carrick took over from Ruben Amrim. And it's like, it's so obvious, you know, that we would all make that decision, surely.

49:42And there is evidence, as Thomas said, you know, this is sort of four years overdue that he shouldn't be in the starting line-up. If you remember at the 2022 World Cup, he was dropped by Fernando Santos and they beat Switzerland 6-1, I think it was in the last 16, and Gonzalo Ramos scored a hat-trick that day and it felt like a natural sort of change into the guard. But then, of course, Santos gets sacked and Roberto Martinez comes in and not only sort of keeps Ronaldo in the fold but plays him every single minute of every single game. But the times when he did leave Ronaldo out, yes, they were fine.

50:14They've won two games by scoring nine goals without him in qualifiers in the past couple of years. obviously during the World Cup against Croatia he was subbed off and Ramos is the guy who scores the winner and then of course he doesn't play against a very good Norway team they win the other night, who scores the winner? Gonzalo Ramos so it all kind of adds to, I think it is time for him to retire I'd like him to retire because he's become this laughingstock we all take the mickey out of him for what he can't do anymore he's too old, he's too slow and he strokes when he doesn't get his way I don't like that narrative You know, he's one of the greatest footballers of all time.

50:52Hopefully the dial can now start to turn again and we can actually appreciate what a great player he was, one of the best we've ever seen. But at the moment, it's just like, yeah, he's amazing, but he's still around for selfish reasons because he wants to score 1 ,000 goals.

51:07Liam Twomey: Well, maybe because he wants to do it for his nation. I mean, it's the tragedy of the faded superstar, isn't it, where they're the last person to realise. But the difference is that process doesn't normally take six years, which is what it's felt like it's taken with Ronaldo. And he actually had a really good record under Martinez in qualifying in terms of goals, which I think supported the delusion, really, that he was still able to carry this team in the final third. And he was disabused of that notion pretty ruthlessly at the last World Cup, as he had been at the Euros previously. And it just, it seems like he hasn't really internalised any of that and still expects to just go back to, yeah, I can score almost a goal a game in qualifying for the next two years and then we'll have this conversation again.

51:59Liam Twomey: Well, very possibly the conversation that he had after sitting out Sunday's game, Sunday's game in Oslo led to him, yeah, realising as he boarded his private jet that this really is it. But Jesus quite possibly was very clear about his future plans. I just wanted to say, also in that Portugal win was that Bernardo Silva tackle on tackle, assault, whatever you want to call it, has no place in football. Blatant foul. Deliberate, blatant foul. Oudegaard, yeah. So Oudegaard's just passed the ball and Silva goes. Just kicks it. And like, look, Bernardo Silva is a wonderful player. is someone who is quite popular with the media because he's a very personable bloke, speaks phenomenally good English and, you know, is a player who we have all watched and enjoyed watching for a long time.

52:53He is also one of the slyest footballers around. So, like, seeing him do something like this is not really a surprise. And, you know, it looked clearly deliberate. You know, it wasn't, oh, you know, I'm just going to go. I mean, it looked like a deliberate, not necessarily a deliberate attempt to hurt an opponent, but a deliberate attempt to stick one on an opponent.

53:15Liam Twomey: The ball had been passed significantly before. Yeah, and Odegaard clearly was hurt by the foul. And then afterwards, Bernardo Silva's walking through the mix zone and a Norwegian journalist sort of, you know, asks him, what was all that about? You know, Martin Odegaard's unhappy, the Norwegian players are unhappy. and he just says, that's football, my friend. That's football. Well, there were also interesting comments from Patrick Berg of Norway and Bodo Glimt in the postgame. On the subject of possible retribution after the attack on their captain, if you want to style it that way, Berg told reporters, wait and see.

53:54Liam Twomey: I can say that I'm looking forward to the next game. A player coming and kicking our captain could set things off a bit. It could. that's going to be on Sunday night in Porto and Tim you're you're hoping to get along to that game Portugal I'm heading out to Porto at the weekend and yeah I mean you know I know he won't be playing but it will all be about Ronaldo you know it will I think so yeah well every Portugal game I've ever been to I've never seen anything like it for any other player in the world he's like a like a pop star you know everybody's got Ronaldo shirt on they they film him in the warm up they film him during the game constantly they scream when he touches the ball never seen anything like it so it'd be really it's not in not in lisbon where of course he played it's in porto but it'd be really interesting to see the reaction you know and just finally on ronaldo i do hope he gets a last match right you know he's done so much for the country let alone just portugal the football team and he is he is adored over there for everything that he's done so it would be a shame if it ended like this portugal's last game of the nation league campaign is away at wales which would be quite the place to finish.

55:01But you'd imagine they'll arrange like they'd have with Messi some kind of gala home friendly. You'd hope so anyway. Bring back Bale for that one as well. Why not?

55:12Liam Twomey: Oh, Wales on Thursday face Norway. Yes. Wales currently on no points, no goals scored. Is that right? Yeah. It hasn't been quite as bad as I thought it would be. Really? But we have lost both games. How bad did you think it was going to be? I genuinely thought we'd lose all of our games by at least four goals. Okay. And we only lost 1-0 to Portugal. Jaal Felix put them ahead. Really nice shot from the edge of the box about midway through the first half. Portugal then dominated thereafter, but Wales kind of managed to stay in the game and should have equalised right at the end. Bit of a mix-up in front of goal.

55:49And then, yeah, lost 2-0 against Denmark on Sunday. And yeah, that was a less encouraging performance. But I think, you know, given the absentees, given all the negativity around Craig Bellamy, it's been not as bad as it could have been. And we've now got two home games to finish, albeit against very good opposition.

56:12Liam Twomey: Norway and Portugal. But we owe Portugal one because 10 years on from them eliminating Wales in the semifinals at Euro 2016. Oh, yeah. So it'd be nice to avenge that in a very small way in an unrelated competition featuring none of the players who were involved. Another reason to bring Bale back. There you go. Yeah, yeah. Elsewhere in the Nations League, Greece, as flagged up by Apollo Ador, thank you Apollo Ador, are in the lead in Group A2. They're on maximum six points with Netherlands on four. Germany at one point after they lost at home to Greece in Jurgen Klopp's first home game as manager of the Mannschaft.

56:56Liam Twomey: So this evening, as we record Thursday, Greece are going to be taking on Netherlands, who themselves won their second game 2-1 in Serbia. Both goals for the Netherlands from Meks Mördink, who I wasn't familiar with. He's from league-leading AZ Alkmaar. Tim, can you furnish further particulars? No. No. Well, we look forward to seeing how Netherlands get on against the surprises of the Nations League so far. Greece, Germany, meanwhile, will be taking on Serbia. That victory over Germany was their first ever. The Greeks, yeah. Friday, France, Italy. Woo! France, Italy. France is doing well, aren't they, Tom?

57:40Yes, yes. Yeah, so slightly scratchy 1-0 win away to Turkey in Zinedine Zidane's first game as coach. Kylian Mbappe scoring the only goal of the game in the first half and then going off injured. A more impressive performance away against Belgium on Monday evening. Despite the fact Zidane made nine changes to his starting XI, so really sort of shuffled the pack. They played some fantastic football. The 0-0 who came in on the right was exceptional, almost scored an absolute worldy in the first half. Riggled past a couple of challenges on the edge of the box and cracked a shot against the crossbar.

58:24but the game is kind of wearing on and it's still nil-nil. France haven't made the breakthrough so Zidane turns to the bench, sends on Michael Alisse, also sends on Ryan Scherke and 10 minutes later, Scherke kind of offloads the ball to Alisse who is midway inside France's half and he scores like one of the best goals he's ever scored and Zidane celebrates it by gambling down the punch, down the touchline and punting a football into the ether and it was reminiscent in a way of what happened prior to the World Cup when I think it was March when France played Brazil and Colombia in back-to-back friendlies in the States.

59:02And it was the first choice 11 who played and beat Brazil and the second choice 11 who played and beat Colombia and the second choice 11 ended up being even more impressive. We kind of saw this in these two games, but I think it would be a reversion to the strongest 11 for this game against Italy on Friday. Obviously a game that's going to mean an awful lot I mean it's Zidane's first home game as France coach So it's a massive moment But for it to be against Italy just seems

59:30Liam Twomey: Yeah I mean he spent a good chunk of his career there At Juventus of course Last time that Italy played France in Paris Was two years ago September 2024 3-1 3-1 And then a couple of months later France came to Italy and beat them 3-1 This time around, Italy's seemingly inexorable decline has been arrested by an actual win. Yeah. An actual win. This happened last Monday when Italy themselves went to Turkey and looked absolutely sensational. They tore Turkey apart. What this means about Turkey, I guess, is a big question. But Italy looked reminiscent of that 2021 side. Do you remember how sparkling they looked in the group stages of the Euros, fast-paced attacking football with Spinazzola bombing up the wing and putting in crosses?

1:00:24Liam Twomey: Well, it's a similar system. And, of course, it's the same manager, Mancini. But the role is now, the Spinazzola role is now very much belongs to Michael Coyote, who's doing that work on the right and is one of this fresh generation that Mancini has called up. And 4-1 they won. as I say has posed one or two questions about what's going on with the Turks who had a miserable time at the World Cup and have started this Nations League campaign with two defeats from two and a lot of calls for their manager Vincenzo Montella to do one they were one of the biggest disappointments of the World Cup when they went in with so much confidence and they were I think numerous people including my dark horse pick they are the traditional dog it was the cliche I went for the cliche and i'm not proud of it but i at least own up to it now yeah um and they were just yeah so poor slightly unlucky in some games but it feels like that trajectory has just yeah continued into a bit of a spiral and it seems quite hard for montella to get out of it now yeah a lot of anger a lot of anger all right tim you're heading off to porto yes for the weekend well best of luck getting into that game weather looks good weather looks good does it yeah sort of like I think it's about 30 ok yeah that would be nice it's unceasably warm surely for October have the what's the sandwich got again the Franceschina Franceschina Franceschina Michael Cox's favourite sandwich there we go have one of those very good Tom what are you up to this weekend off to North Wales I believe it's going to be similarly warm it usually is this time of year low 30s low mid.

1:02:09You're joking though, I hope. What, about going to Wales or it being warm? I'm joking about one of those things. Okay, excellent. Will you

1:02:16Liam Twomey: be attending? No. I'll be in North Wales and the football will be in South Wales, but I'll be watching from a safe distance. Excellent. Alright, well enjoy yourself in Wales. And Liam, what does the weekend hold for you? Not live football for probably the last time in a few weeks. I will be walking a dog, my dog, to be clear. And yeah, just kind of trying to recharge my batteries ahead of the Premier League coming back. A richly deserved break. I'll be here in this very studio on Saturday night, and I'll be joined by Adrian Clarke and Julian Laurent. So, an eclectic line-up and an exciting one as well.

1:02:51Liam Twomey: Probably there'll be somebody else too. Let's see. You can participate by joining us on YouTube and send me in your comments, because we can deal with them in real time when I remember. Excellent. That, though, does seem to be it for today's show, unless I'm missing something. So, very much enjoy the rest of your day, everybody. Thanks to producers Jake and Charlie and to you there, wherever you've been joining us. We'll be back with you soon. For now, from all of us here, it's goodbye.

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