Will Haaland help City topple Liverpool? Will the Black Cats be bad luck for Arsenal?

0:00The Athletic FC

0:30Plus, we get set for Premier League matchday 11, City-Liverpool, Sunderland-Arsenal at the Stadium of Light and a Europa League final rematch in North London. All that and more in this Totally Football Show.

0:47Thursday, 6th of November and welcome to the Totally Football Show. Today with us, Mark Carey. Hello, Mark. A.k.a. Mr. 10 Games into the Season. I'll claim it. I'll claim it as my own. Right, well we'll be hearing about some of your 10 game into the season observations later on. Duncan Alexander is here as well, a man for whom 10 games into the season is a special time as well. Yeah, just, I mean, I don't even look at league tables until 10 games in. Why is that Duncan? Because it means nothing until 10 games in. So imagine my surprise when I looked and saw Arsenal so far clear at the top. I can imagine that surprise.

1:23Weirdly, you say it means nothing until this point. And Mark Keir says that it means nothing after this. It's all done by 10 games into the season. I thought the reason you'd like 10 games into the season is you can make football formations out of the win-draw-loss columns. I also like that, yeah. That is good. Charlie Eccleshire, what do you like? Do you like Dan Burns' 10 games? Yes, that was an incredible header. Trippier's ball in there. And Burns arriving!

1:53You won't see too many better numbers than that. That is absolutely brilliant from Dan Byrne. I really like unique goals. Right. And that felt unique. I couldn't really think of an equivalent of that. So, okay, so I was talking about this with my son. Oh, yeah. He said Kevin De Bruyne put in an assist against... I don't know if it was Stoke. Maybe it was. Sorry, I might go ahead of myself. No, no, it might have been. But he basically, the ball comes spinning out, possibly from a goal kick, and he heads it back with a certain amount of spin on it for, I think, Aguero. But what Dan Byrne did there was a real, what did I just see moment?

2:34Yes. No, yeah, I watched this one and it was, I was saying before, it's almost like you have a prior where it was going so far away from the post that you almost looked away to be like, oh, that's a shame. They've wasted a good opportunity there because he peeled off the back of the athletic defence and had a clear header. and yeah you had the sort of half look away and then it just i've never seen a header never have a swerve to it and i still can't work out exactly what the science behind it was is it because of the spin on the ball from trippier is it the angle of which burn heads it what dictated that trajectory uh i'd say both right so it's spinning as it comes in it's an outspin isn't it yeah and it's And he said afterwards he wanted to, he just thought, I'll head it as hard as I can.

3:18So he's cut across it. I mean, yeah. And when Dan Burns says that, you better watch out. So I think it's a combination of both. Because it just thumped off it. It just bent. Because, you know, any football at that speed will curl, especially these modern balls. So lovely. Football, a sport that's been going since, what, 1992? And yet there's still new things happening all the time. Yeah. Incredible. Ooh. Champions League Wednesday, anyway. second half of what was match day four. Equally, Champions League at the halfway point of the league phase, at least. Can I pose a question? Please. Given who's got the data boffins in.

3:55All the models were saying that 15 points would be enough for you to qualify, which I thought was strangely low. Like, I can't really see how, as in that will get you in the top eight. That seemed to be the accepted wisdom. Not top six. Yeah, which to me seemed low. And now we're halfway through. And... What does the eighth place team have? seven points? No, they have nine. Nine points. Which would suggest that if it keeps going at this rate, you're maybe 18. And I don't, is that because there's just been, some teams have done really badly, some have done well, or is it expected that it will tail off and that level of domination and disparity of doing the best and the worst won't be the case in the second half?

4:33I don't know if you know the answer to this. I'm not entirely sure to be honest. I still think teams are trying to figure their way through the league phase after last season. And there's a, I think there's a certain extent to which, because Liverpool topped the league phase last season, played PSG and got dumped out, I think there's a bit more pragmatism from a lot of the teams to be like, we're playing the long game here, we don't need to necessarily go full force on the league. Yeah, except I still think the top eight, people who realise you don't want to play two extra knockout games. That's the big thing.

5:00Last year, 16 points got you up. Yeah, and then there were, what, five teams that finished on 50, including Bayern, Real Madrid, Dortmund, Milan, that didn't go through automatically. So yeah, 15 seems low, I'd say 16 or 17. Just try and win games. Just go out there and win football matches. See what happens. It's the best philosophy. Man City did that this week. They got the biggest victory of the round, beating Dortmund 4-1. Phil Foden with a brace in there. Newcastle with 2-0 winners against Athletic Club de Bilbao. That one featuring, of course, that extraordinary header from Dan Byrne. Chelsea, meanwhile, got held to a 2-2 draw by Carabao, the only Premier League side not to win in the Champions League this week.

5:42Elsewhere, there were a couple of mighty upsets on Wednesday. Paphos of Cyprus, the team that trains next to the water park and is marshalled at the back by 38-year-old David Luiz, that side. They beat Villarreal 1-0 for their first ever Champions League victory. And in the game of the week, Club Bruges against Barcelona. Club Bruges took the lead three times against the Catalans, then had a late winner disallowed and ended up drawing 3-3. Woof. Shout out as well to Atalanta, who got their first win in any competition since September, beating Marseille 1-0 thanks to a 90th-minute worldie from Lazar Samozic.

6:18Adamola Lukman falling out with another Atalanta manager in that one. Anyway, halfway through the league phase, Arsenal, Man City, Newcastle and Liverpool are all in the top eight. Arsenal, the only team in the competition yet to concede a goal. They're up at the top with Bayern and Inter. They're the only sides to have won four games out of four. or Inter have had very kind fixtures. That's about to end, but they did beat Carat 2-1 on Wednesday. As it happens, Arsenal and Bayern meet on matchday five. Indeed. Further down, Spurs and Chelsea are 10th and 12th in the playoff positions, but not that far off the top eight.

6:53Meanwhile, at the bottom of the table, two former European champions are both on zero points. That's Benfica, who brought in Jose Mourinho and have now lost three games in the competition since, failing to score a single goal. They got beaten by Bayer Leverkusen at home this Wednesday. And then a place below them in last spot, Ajax, who lost 3-0 at home to Galatasaray, a Victor Ozymen hat-trick there. Ajax's record in the competition this season, played four, lost four, conceded 14, scored one. One. Crikey. Sad, isn't it? Anyway, we're not going to focus on that right now because I want to talk about Bruges Barcelona.

7:34This is the Totally Football Show with James Richardson, part of the Athletic FC podcast network. Nog eens een bal, daar gaat hij weer, Forbes, hij is weer vertrokken, Forbes, nee, daarnaast, nee, daarin, ik dacht dat ernaast was, het is 3-2 voor, Club Brugge, Carlos Forbes. Carlos Forbes, we all remember him at Wolves last season, don't we, Charlie? Yeah, big time. Right. He was on loan there. Of course, you know, where he didn't get a single goal or assist in something like 10 appearances, was it? But look at him last night. Duncan, you made the astute decision to focus on this game. Yeah, I was working on this game.

8:14And, yeah, I can't say I was super excited going into it. But when it finished, it fell to my knees in excitement at how good it was. It was a mad, mad game. I mean, from early on, because the two sides had already exchanged goals by about seven minutes in. Yeah, it was 1-1 after eight minutes. And the whole game just had one pattern. Barcelona, probing, brilliant attackers, you know, lovely movement. And then no defence. Like, just a few men ambling around on the halfway line. So every time Bruges broke, they pretty much got a one-on-one. I mean, yeah, because you ask about, do we remember Carlos Forbes?

8:50Obviously, we don't. it looked like Barcelona also had no awareness of who this guy was or the fact that he was really quick and really enjoyed running in behind and I know this is very sort of talk sport pundit but does there not come a point when you have to slightly compromise how you play I mean it was kind of ludicrous it looked like he was having the time of his life two goals, set one up could have scored more it was baffling because I mean even after Laminio Ma scored possibly goal of the season to make it 2-2 Well, OK, well, we'll touch on that in a second. Bruges went straight up the other end and almost scored again.

9:26And then they did. And it was like Barcelona just refused to accept the fact that they were getting done again and again. I mean, this is a bit of a constant in Flick's career. It is a great coaching career, but I remember his Bayern team doing this. And when they can't match the high defensive line with intensity, and they certainly couldn't last night. Yeah, and obviously he had peak Manuel Neuer in those days. and late career, Vojek Chesney is less effective and was pretty fortunate. It got tackled in the last minute. I think it was a foul. I think it was fair enough, but it could have easily been a 4-3 Bruges win.

10:01But Flick said after the game, he said, oh, we could have a low block and win 1-0, but that's not our DNA. That's not my DNA. It's just two ER, mate. Well, exactly. He went full and. He is never going to change on that because of exactly the reason that you said. I think that it works. It always works until it doesn't. and that's such an obvious thing to say, but the reason that he wants to do it is to squeeze the pitch and make sure that there's pressure on the ball. But if there's not pressure on the ball and you keep the line high, it's just, you're asking for so much trouble. The only thing I'd say to that as well, bringing the numbers to the table, is that in La Liga at least, Barcelona have caught the opposition offside 235 times since the start of last season.

10:37The next highest is Valencia on 143. So it does work a lot of the time in order to then squeeze the pitch. and sometimes the opposition goes through, scores a goal, and then it shorts off. It only takes one, Mark. But it only takes one. This is the thing. Or three, yeah. How many times did they catch Bruges offside? Good question. Check notes. Just while Mark's checking that, you loved, and we all did that, Yamaha goal, the first of his two. Did he get the second or was that given to...? No, the third goal was an own goal. Quantum of solace. Yeah. For Barcelona. But the second Bruges goal, I enjoyed almost as much.

11:15Four moves from one end of the pitch to the other. They showed a replay from behind the goal of them, just zigzagging giddily across the field. It very much had the feel of a video game where two people know one move during the game. The guy controlling Bruges had the fast break bun, and the Barcelona was like, we'll just camp in the opposition half and see what happens. But it made for a minor Champions League classic. And I do think that this is the strength of the current format, is that this game is just a one-off, mad game. A bit like, was it the Benfica Barcelona game last season? 5-3, I think.

11:515-4. 5-4, that's right, it was. And you don't have the home and away. I know Charlie doesn't like the impact of not weakening your opposition when you strengthen yourself by winning. But you do just get these kind of like art house, one-off, magic. But would it not be great to have a sequel? Or do you think it would just be a letdown? It'll be a letdown. I think it's fundamentally wrong not to have the ability to come back at whoever's beaten you or, you know, Well, that's the fancy flick thing is about defendants. Yeah, so true. And I, yeah, I do feel as well that the fact that we're all still trying to work out how much these games matter means that the whole thing has a slightly pre-season exhibition feel still until we get right towards, I don't know, maybe January or maybe even the knockout stages.

12:34There are teams for whom it will start to get pretty decisive very, very soon, but I don't think that Barcelona or unnecessarily one of them. Mark, sorry. No, can I just say it was only one offside drawn. So my point does kind of fall a little bit. No, but that's an interesting point, I think, because I think Bruges played it really well and they were starting their runs from their own half. So a couple of their breaks, you know, looked like they were offside, but they weren't because obviously it began in their own half. But Barcelona had more than twice as many shots as Bruges. Bruges only had 10 shots.

13:00Five of them were our old friend Opta deemed big chances. So like basically, you know, they weren't having tons of shots, but every time they did, it was just utter quality, thanks to Barcelona. They had one goal disallowed, as you say, for a foul on Chesney. They had a penalty given and then rescinded. I think rightly Barcelona had hit the post three times, as well as the three goals that they scored. Lamin-Yamal woke up about 60 minutes in, is that fair? Yeah, he kind of ambled around a bit in the first half and didn't do that much. But then I was watching, I was thinking, Yamal hasn't done very much.

13:34and then at that exact point just picked the ball up on the edge of the box cut past a couple of players played a 1-2 brilliant 1-2 and then just as the keeper came out just sort of tucked it with his left foot it was just yeah messy-esque very messy-esque he shuffles the ball from one foot to another to beat three guys yeah and then it's Firmin Lopez who who kind of reads his mind which is a great little flick he's got a lot rolled back heel isn't it yeah lovely stuff which he slightly needs to control but he does without breaking stride Yamal and then just side foot sit in. Yeah, and also the natural finish in that position would be with your right foot.

14:08Yeah, definitely. He kind of just, as he's leaning, falling to his right, just tucks it with his left. And it was a brilliant goal. And yeah. It was a fine goal. There'd been some other good ones this week. Let's not forget Van der Venns. I would say he probably had to beat one guy. He ran further, but had to do less beating people. But then again, he's a centre-half, not Laminia Mahal. True. And I'd also put down Burns-Helery there. Yeah, definitely. I mean, yeah, philosophically, you've got two schools. You've got the Dan Bern and the Lillian Jamal. And it's good that both schools kind of...

14:41Nice. We just appreciate them. Yeah, one last thing on this game. I love seeing a game like Bruges-Barcelona with Anthony Taylor in the middle. And he's just like, he's going to have a game. And he did. He did all right. He did all right. Yeah. Barcelona with the defensive frailty. They've got Chelsea in three weeks' time in the Champions League. But that's going to be at Stamford Bridge and their form on the road, as evidenced here and in La Liga, is not great. They lost 4-1 away at Sevilla a couple of weeks ago in La Liga. Sevilla, who are not in the best of form. And they also, of course, got beaten at the Bernabeu.

15:21That was only 2-1, but could have been much, much, much worse. Anyway, interesting game then on Matchday 5 coming up for both Chelsea and Barcelona. Chelsea, who, as I mentioned, were the only Premier League side not to get three points this midweek, courtesy of the still underrated Carabag show. Oh, Duncan, you were watching this. I was watching this as well, yeah. All right. Yeah, strange game. Chelsea started there in complete control for about 10, 15 minutes and then lost everything. And it became one of the most, a bit like bruised, but it became an incredibly vertical match of counter-attacks.

15:56What was another fine goal, which, as you say, gave Chelsea a lovely start. Esteval Esteval Esteval as Natalie would say Esteval that's his seventh of the season for club and country still great feat once again but then yeah Chelsea just I mean their ability every time a ball went over the top their central defenders rotated once more just couldn't cope and again Carabao had numerous kind of one on one slash you know chances and it was it wasn't a surprise when they they took the lead indeed ahead at half time defenders rotated again we talk about whether Hounsey Flick should change his philosophy change his approach could the same be said for Enzo Marescu made seven changes from the line-up to face Tottenham at the weekend and that played a big part in their confusion at the back yeah I think it's somewhere between I think it's 83 or 85 changes that he's made to the starting line-up in all compositions this season which is comfortably the most of I think only Premier League side in all competitions, which is one at the expense of the other.

17:03You think maybe that will serve to be one of the best decisions towards the end of the season because everyone is going to be refreshed and fresh. And to the point we said before about the league phase, the remit is to just qualify through to the next round and not necessarily need to top the group. So on the face of it, you think a point away from home in the Champions League, not terrible. It might come back to bite them. I don't think it will. but in terms of just building a settled side and building the style of play that he wants to which is broadly established now to try and execute that every week with completely different players is just tricky and I think some of the players that they have especially on the left-hand side with Garnaccio and Jamie Gittins as well they are kind of, if not carbon copies of each other you can kind of plug and play certain players and know that they will fulfil the same remit rather than just completely different profiles and trying to still stick with the same style.

17:57But I think it's still a net positive that they're able to rotate as much, if you think about it, across the course of a whole season, not least because they had the Club World Cup in the summer as well. I mean, they did it last year, but they were in the Conference League. So they had a huge rotation. I think, you know, obviously he got quite used to that. It's tricky. Like, everyone wants to do a degree of rotation in this group phase, but it's whether you have the players necessarily to do that. It didn't really look like they did yesterday. And then, you know, they play Barcelona next. if they don't win that or lose that then they're in a tricky position to get top eight but they'll be fine about getting into the playoff positions so you wonder there do you just start rotating and accept that's your fate basically and preserve yourself for the Premier League They clearly targeted this as a win as you would I mean obviously Caicedo had to come on early on because Lavier got injured again Which is such a shame He's such a good player, Lavier But just very injury-prone And then at half-time Mureska brought on Ganacho Enzo Fernandes and Liam De Lapp which was very much like okay lads and you know it worked well all three played well Garnaccio equalised thought De Lapp did yeah great goal and thought De Lapp did really well he stretched he made a lot of good runs which I think you know is sort of what he's there for and I think could be quite profitable against Barcelona if he plays I mean could you argue that Wolves at home on Saturday is more the game to rotate yeah it's not like you know Liverpool and City are facing each other this Sunday if they had a sort of gimme Champions League and they might have written second especially now Forbes well exactly yeah how they've missed him this season I mean Wolves who gave Chelsea a 4-3 of course last time they met in the Carabao Cup not too long ago and this will be a Chelsea team fresh from around 6 ,000 miles of travelling yeah there is that a word for Carabao though Colin Miller pointing out that since Chelsea's takeover in 2022 they have spent 1.71 billion in transfer fees Carabaug in the same period has spent 5.9 million which is, Colin points out a transfer spend of approximately 0.3 % of Chelsea's Wow, Duncan It's less Significantly but their results so far this season have been revelatory Yeah, I mean the Opta prediction model had them to finish on 6 points so they've already surpassed that Have that Opta I mean it's funny isn't it because we talked about the playoff round and it's probably quite likely they will be in the playoff round.

20:23And that's a... No one's going to want to go there. Not in February. Carabao on seven points, as are Chelsea, as are Barcelona and Sporting and Dortmund and Atalanta as well. Atalanta, I should say. Anyway, we'll check up on some of the other things. And of course, Newcastle and Man City next.

20:49This is the Totally Football Show, part of the Athletic FC podcast network. The Athletic is the only place you can read articles by Daniel Taylor, Amy Lawrence, Phil Hay, James Pearce, Oli Kay and the very best football writers around. Wednesday night, Newcastle beat Athletic Club de Bilbao 2-0 for their third straight victory and their third straight clean sheet in the Champions League. Mark, you were watching this. I was yeah I think it was the first consecutive three games that they've won since 2002 but that's a bit of a cheat of a stat because in the Champions League in the Champions League I should say but they haven't been in the Champions League all that much so still a bit of a caveat there but it was a fairly run-of-the-mill victory as it goes which I think speaks to kind of what we were alluding to was just how much importance you maybe place a bit more in the Premier League and the somewhat easier game is playing in the Champions League which is kind of bonkers to think the Danburn headed goal was the the highlight of the first half it was a bit stop start at times but I think as much as anything it's worth speaking about Newcastle's home form versus their away form in all competitions it is remarkable just how contrasting it is they were terrible at the weekend against West Ham and I think that they needed I think Eddie Howe said or it's been suggested that it was the worst performance under him I think he said yeah which it was it was really quite poor Liam Tharne did a really good analysis of that on site just to show just how passive they were.

22:10And they needed to, it's a bit of a cliche, but they needed to show a response to it. And they luckily had a game soon after to be able to do that. And they were far more aggressive against Athletic. Maybe it was an intensity thing of just their normal intensity versus a La Liga team. But they were far more impressive. A struggling Liga team as well without pretty much all their first choice forwards. But interestingly, they're going to be on the road again this weekend. And down in London as they take on Brentford. Vector writes is the economic disparity between the Premier League and the rest of Europe making it so that now domestic fixtures are harder than European ones for Arsenal, City, Liverpool etc are the Brentfords and palaces now harder to play against than Atleti and Dortmund and Brentford indeed Newcastle's destination Yeah I think it's a good point I don't know what exactly I think of it but I do think it's a very valid I definitely think the home game like it does feel like a lot of the home fixtures for the Premier League teams are pretty comfortable I mean you saw Spurs have had a terrible time of it at home over a prolonged period of the Premier League.

23:09They've won both their games in the Champions League at home without conceding a goal, smashed Copenhagen 4-0, who admittedly are one of the weaker teams in the competition. But yeah, I definitely think that that rings true. And there's less, I don't know, it just feels like there's less intensity about some of these games as well. It reminds me a little bit of reverse, of when English teams first got back into Europe after the ban in the early 90s, when they couldn't really cope with going away to European teams. and they would often just get absolutely hammered because the kind of intensity and the tactical preparation of going to a big or even a medium-sized European club was too much for them.

23:43And it feels like the reverse is now. I mean, you watch an Arsenal game in the Champions League, particularly at home, and Saka gets so much space and then causes absolute havoc. And it's like, what are you doing? That is crazy, that element of it. And I mean, Arsenal haven't conceded a group stage goal in two and a half seasons now. What? Yeah, at home. Okay. I mean, but it's crazy. And they've racked up some big wins at that time. Exactly like you say, Duncan, because teams come and actually try and play them. It's like, thanks very much. That was the point I was going to make. It feels like with going back to this Newcastle game as well, that teams, because you're in the Champions League and you think that you're a good enough team yourself.

24:21And you're used to winning. You go toe-to-toe with them. And with these teams, if you do go toe-to-toe with them, often you'll get picked off. Whereas the reason I think that the Premier League games are a bit harder is that your Brentfords, your Crystal Palaces of this world have a bit more of an antidote to these top teams playing and they know how to nullify them at times. And they will just condense the space. And they can throw balls long as well, which the European side just can't do. Charlie, you were watching Manchester City-Dortman. Does that fit into this paradigm? Dortman, Champions League finalists a couple of seasons back, but beaten 4-1 and never looking a threat in this game?

24:52Not really. I mean, once City went 2-0 up around the half-hour mark, Harland made it 2 after Foden had scored a lovely goal. it felt pretty over as a contest there was a brief bit of interest Dortmund pulled one back to make it 3-1 after Foden had scored another really good goal similar kind of finish, even better they made it 3-1 after about 70 minutes and then kind of had a flurry of attacking nearly scored a second City felt a bit edgy, made a load of changes but they didn't get it and then it kind of petered out until City got a fourth another really nice goal from Cherki I think it took a deflection to be fair but yeah, City looked way superior and had gears to go to if they needed them.

25:32What will make Pep happiest from this performance? Well, I think Phil Foden. And the fact that someone other than Haaland or two other players actually scored, you know, weakening that reliance. But Foden, I mean, if you think back to when City last won the league, the season before last, he was so critical to that. And in particular, scoring long-range goals, which is a really important way of unlocking low blocks. We've heard a lot about set pieces this season, which is another way to do it. but having someone who can just smash one in from range is pretty handy. And him scoring two from outside the box yesterday, if he can continue that kind of form, then that will make a massive difference.

26:08Because last season, his tailing off was a big reason why they didn't win the league. It's nice to have somebody apart from Holland, as you point out, doing the scoring. I hate to bring numbers into it, but extraordinarily he has scored 65 % of City's goals in the Premier League this season. Does anybody know who their next high scorer in the league is? own goals no in particular the guy at Burnley yeah Maxime Estep he scored two own goals two own goals and that's their second highest scorer extraordinary Harland of course on the score sheet here finishing off a lovely City move I mean when they play this way they are magnificent he was given the captaincy for the game against his old club and scored his 27th goal of the season for club and country it's November he also became the first player to score in five consecutive Champions League matches for three different clubs.

27:02He's done that three times. Jordan Campbell pointing out that while that might sound a bit niche, there's one thing to do it at a club as powerful as Manchester City, but to have done it at Red Bull Salzburg in 2019 at just 19, and then the following year as well at Dortmund, while still a teenager, shows, to quote Jordan, just how long he has maintained this level of consistency in front of goal. Extraordinary. Yeah, I mean, City's just bigger picture as well, Pep, who generally doesn't really want huge squads, has accepted the fact that nowadays you need a huge squad and they do... And a huge Haaland up front.

27:35And a huge Haaland helps. Or, how was Andy McCoy's pronouncing it? A really weird... Haaland he was talking about him. As if he sort of came from this country called Haaland. It was quite odd. But yeah, they've got so many options now because they've basically got everyone fit apart from Rodri and that is the key one. But you know, the five subs they brought on yesterday, Ruben Diaz, Ait Nori, Cherky, Bernardo Silva, Marmouche. They still had Bob, Lewis, Kusanov, Ake left on the bench. So they've got a lot of options. And, you know, he was talking them up. You know, the fact they are ready for this title fight on the weekend.

28:09So, yeah, they look in good shape. I was delighted to see a who's better Harland or Harry Kane piece this week. Written by you, Mark. That was me, yes. What was the conclusion? Well, in my typical Mark Carey fashion, I sort of just stayed and just left the data for people to make their own decision. What do the numbers say? Well, the numbers suggest that if what I did essentially was, and this is before Haaland obviously had scored last night, but extrapolated the rate of goals that he and Kane are scoring at across the course of a season. I sort of said if it was about a 60-game season, this is maybe where they'd be at.

28:43And at the time of writing it, before the game last night, Haaland had a rate of 1.6 goals per game in all competitions. so if he was to extrapolate that across a 60 game season he would hit 98 goals 98 goals for club and country could happen it genuinely could happen what about Harry Kane? Harry Kane I think it was closer to 86 but the reason that either way both of them could break the record is that Lionel Messi's 82 goals in 2011-12 is the highest in the modern game for a single campaign for club and country so they both look odds on at this rate to smash that record because Harry Kane perhaps brings more to the table than just goals in a way that Harlem possibly at this stage of his career at least can't match but Kane's all round game gets the Bundesliga though so that's true Bundesliga attacks yeah fair fair well Newcastle we mentioned there at Brentford Man City have a bit of a fixture for themselves this week they Sunday afternoon at 4.30 will be hosting Liverpool crikey anything else from the Champions League we should mention before we get on to Matchday 11 No Just that Byrne Was the goal Of the week For me Better than Van der Ven In my opinion Yeah Not going to argue With you Mark Part 3 next With Matchday 11 Of that Premier League

30:10This is the Totally Football Show Part of the Athletic FC Podcast Network Time flies when you're Watching a paradigm shift In English football says Mark Kerry on theathletic.com. What's he talking about? Well, it's the Athletic's annual public service announcement for the third season in a row. It's so much easier when I just read out your list. I'm hoping you to carry a reading. The table is not going to shuffle as much as you might think, listener, by the end of the season. I'm going to sub this next bit down, Mark. What you essentially say is that since the inaugural 20-team Premier League season, pretty much, I mean, just over a third of the Premier League sides will either not move or move by only one place between now and the end of the season.

30:54So it's essentially kind of 33%, 34 % done. Yeah, absolutely, yeah. But then we're about a quarter of the way through the season. So that's not that surprising, is it? Yeah, well, the caveat of all of this as well is that, you know, the difference between one place or two places could be the difference between the title win and second place. it could be the difference between a Champions League spot and not. It could be the difference between a relegation spot and not. But broadly speaking, I think that the point is really valid. It is a piece that I continue to write and cite a research study which looked at it across a really long period that basically said that there's a correlation, statistical analysis, that looks at the relationship between match week 10 and the end of the season, match week 38.

31:34And there's a really strong relationship in terms of the configuration of the table. It's about 80 % sorted, is that right? Yeah. Which is a lot, actually. That's much more than the third that I was hinting at. Yeah, it's frightening, really. And last season, there was nine teams of the 20, which close to half, obviously, who either stayed the same or moved by just one. To the exceptions were Forrest and Spurs, Spurs who plummeted down 10 places, as you point out, between November and May. Palace and Newcastle, meanwhile, heading up in the opposite direction. Who do you fancy to perform a similar free fall this time around?

32:06I don't know, really. What I would say is that it's really, really congested this season more congested than in recent seasons I also ran some analysis which looked at the spread of the league table in terms of the point distribution this season compared to the same stage of the past seven seasons and it's the most I won't go into the exact statistics but it's the most congested it has been at this stage of the season compared to others which just goes to show that you know penalty area when a long throw is about to come in you just yeah exactly variance is we are at the hands of not so much anymore because teams I understand have now worked out that the thing to do is depopulate the penalty box in order to lead to maximum confusion among defenders.

32:43Let them run around a little bit. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, for the deviation, you look at the North East clubs, Sunderland and Newcastle. Sunderland currently fourth, Newcastle 13th. Wow. I'd imagine they would each, both of them would be moving more than one or two, zero or one places. Sunderland feel, do you remember the season Hull came up and started off with... Phil Brown? Yeah, winning at Arsenal, winning at Spurs. so everyone's like are you Phil Browning Sunderland I'm not giving them a full Phil Brown isn't he from Sunderland or from not far from there yeah and then the edges stayed up by the skin of their teeth well I guess this weekend might prove a useful indication of just how much they're worth that top four spot match date 11 is a sizzler you've got South Shields apologies you've got Spurs Man United to kick things off on Saturday lunchtime and then two games that you really don't mind having a blackout for at 3 o 'clock, Everton, Fulham and West Ham Burnley, if you had to pick two for an embargo just saying, then Telly's back on at tea time for Sunderland against Arsenal and yes, no visiting side has yet won at the Stadium of Light as an extra treat at 8 o 'clock, Chelsea Wolves Sunday at 2 four games, the M23 Clasco Palace Bryan, also Villa Bournemouth and Brent for Newcotta and Nottingham Forest Leeds which is a bit of a six pointer it's just a couple of places above the bottom three then and only then we can watch Man City Liverpool what's going to happen in that game both teams coming off big wins a lot of a lot of things to be decided in that game I mean it's almost like what's the best result there for Arsenal a draw possibly a Liverpool win yeah I think the way how good City look and I remember there was a similar situation two seasons ago when these two played each other in about the march also just before an international break and they were in a three-way tussle for the title and Liverpool and City did draw but I think it was becoming clear that City were going to be the outstanding candidate and I think that's happening this season I think they look a lot more together like Liverpool are still a little bit I know they've had some good results but it still feels a little there are a lot of uncertainties there whereas I think Pep City feel like they might be gathering momentum and they have it in them to go on one of their mad runs one of their runs yeah those ominous runs And I think they're far more versatile this season than ever before.

35:06I mean, the Arsenal game being an example, that Guardiola is willing to be more pragmatic, willing to be more direct at times, rather than it just being that, like I said before, about having an antidote to certain teams. You could, at times, know that at least to try to nullify City, you sort of have to perform in a certain way. Make sure you play in a deep block and stay compact. Now, he does have kind of alternatives to however you want to play. We do have a solution to it. so it's quite hard to predict this one compared to seasons gone by I think OK you can get at them at the back the results would suggest but going forward no one scored more than they have in the Premier League although they are the only team yet to score from a set piece weirdly they haven't got that memo if only they could add that to their attacking weaponry but I would make them the favourites for this game you would?

35:53yeah I think they're looking pretty strong right now I mean Liverpool as well that, you know, Isak has missed a few slot with songs as if he might be available and he's been named in the Sweden squad. I mean, I know that there's debate as to whether Liverpool are better or worse with him and a lot of people feel at the moment they've looked stronger without him but having that as an option I think would make a really big difference to bring off the bench. I think we maybe swung slightly too far the other way with Liverpool and running them off after their bad run. I think we saw that Florent Vert on the left, you know, maybe that's not his ideal position but he did play well and I think Nunes is not the most consistent performer right back for City.

36:32You go back a few seasons and this game was, particularly the ones that the Etihad actually, were just the level of performance was just up there. Probably the best football we've ever seen in the Premier League. I don't think this one will be. Both teams make a lot more mistakes now. You imagine Haaland will cause Liverpool's central defence issues, but you equally imagine Liverpool can cause, you know, City's defence issues. I think it's funny because I think Marma Dashley is almost like a sort of like, almost like a budget Donnarumma, but they're both the same sort of keeper. They're very good shot stoppers, but neither of their distribution is great.

37:08So you wonder whether, you know, there could be a sort of a goalkeeper error that comes into it at some point as well in terms of distribution. I'm really looking forward to it because I think it, you know, two of the biggest teams, two of the best teams the last decade, but both sort of feeling their way to some sort of identity while their other title rival is sort of streaking away. I think as well the likelihood of the draw or how good or otherwise result, you know, obviously does depend a lot on what happens in the Arsenal-Sunderland game. I think, you know, if Arsenal drop points there then that does take the pressure off a bit.

37:38Were they to win? Then a draw's really not good for either team. But I think if Arsenal were to lose or draw, then if this game is a draw after an hour or something then that becomes a lot more palatable for both. There's a lot of internet chatter amongst City and Liverpool fans both saying, well, I don't mind chasing Arsenal because, you know, come the spring, they'll fade, which, you know, history says is possible. But I just think you look at the Arsenal squad this time round and they've got like that sort of hunger that you've seen in Liverpool and City in previous seasons to sort of land the title.

38:10It reminded me of Liverpool in 1920 when they just went on that extraordinary start to the season and they're like, we need to win the league this year. Oh, I thought you were saying. It reminds me of Liverpool in 1920. But the funny thing is they do remind you of Liverpool in 1925? No, 2020 it is. Who were the last top flight side to record eight consecutive clean sheets. There you go. The script writers know how to do callbacks, for sure. I mean, if Arsenal were to win against Sunderland... It's November. No, of course. Oh, sorry, against Sunderland. Yeah, yeah. Sorry, if Arsenal were to beat Sunderland on Sunday, then City go into the game nine points behind Arsenal Liverpool ten which you know even at this stage of the season that does sound like quite a lot but obviously then if they don't and then they've got the game I think that Sunderland game is really really significant for Arsenal to try and put some pressure on Well that's Saturday at 5.30 Duncan Alexander offers this statistical window into the Gunners' defensive excellence Arsenal are currently on track to concede fewer goals in this season than Tottenham did in April.

39:16Wow. OK, so they're good, but are they win away at the Stadium of Light good? I mean, Everton did all right at the Stadium of Light on Monday and probably should have won in terms of sort of dominance and chances created. Barry missed an absolute sitter in that game. I think, if you remember, Charlie might remember this, that was it 2000 when Arsenal started away at Sunderland on the first of the season? Perez on the bench. Perez on the bench, and Wenger said to him, oh, you know, we can't start you because it's just brutal. And he sat on the bench thinking, oh, that's a load of nonsense. And then 10 minutes in was like, oh my God.

39:53Yeah, what have I done? And I do think that... Sunderland won the game 1-0. Yeah, and I do think that what's changed is that that Arsenal doesn't exist anymore. Arsenal are probably the team that are most fearsome in that sense. I don't think this set of Arsenal players will go to Sunderland and be like, oh, this is going to be too physical for us. I think they relish. We saw it at Burnley last weekend where they just completely handled that first half with ease. So I think this could have been a test for different Arsenal teams, but I think this team will relish it. I mean, the big thing is that Jokeres is out now and they're missing a load of attackers.

40:27And what it means is that Mikel Marino will play up front. And Marino has done incredibly well, and he's so game and he's a really good finisher, but he's not going to run in behind. And what that means is Sunderland, And as you saw against Burnley last weekend, you saw it. The first half, Arsenal ripped Burnley apart. Jokeres went off, Marino went on. And obviously there's game state, but Burnley were basically like, we'll step forward five or ten yards, thanks very much. And I think Sunderland will feel they can do similar because also Arsenal don't have electric wingers. You know, Trossard and Saka are also people who prefer the ball into feet.

41:02So that is an area where, and they're not going to have, Arsenal are not going to have much off the bench, very little in an attacking sense. Their injuries, Jocherez, Martinelli... Odegaard, Havertz, Madweke and Gabriel Jesus. Wow. So that's six attackers. I mean, to be without six attackers and still be recording wins, I think as well that's why the whole set-piece thing is slightly misleading because I don't think they necessarily want to be scoring such a high proportion, but when you're missing that many really good forwards, you take wins however they come, really. I mean, there's another world in which they're without all these players, even last season.

41:42And we'd be saying, well, they are completely screwed. Most teams kind of would be. But I do think what it will mean is that should Sunderland go ahead, and obviously this means something happening that hasn't happened in Arsenal's last 10 games, them actually conceding a goal, then I think they would feel a lot more confident about holding on to that against Mikel Marino up front rather than Jochrez or Havertz or anyone else, really. I wonder whether Sunderland will play a back five as well. They played a back five against Chelsea and did really well. And especially if you say that they'll probably go into the, as they typically do, Arsenal, they'll go into the wide areas and try and work an opening that way.

42:16If they've got so many injuries and can't quite get the opening and they haven't quite got the potency down the middle, they at least will allow Sunderland to kind of double up in those wide areas and nullify Arsenal, which to be fair, across the past couple of seasons had been sometimes their Achilles heel. They couldn't break down those low blocks. So I think Sunderland have typically, when they've been ahead, they've gone from a back four to a back five, just to shore things up, much like Nottingham Forest did for a lot of last season. They started with a back five against Chelsea, did really well.

42:42And that was obviously away from home. You think actually just acknowledge that you are up against the leading team in the Premier League. We'll play a back five at home. And with the injuries that they've got, maybe that will be quite effective as well. Sounds the kind of game when a Granit Xhaka could be really influential. That's narrative. His interview in The Athletic today with Michael Walker is really good. Oh yeah? What's he saying? Well, I mean, he talks about how that game against Crystal Palace where he was captain and then got booed off by his own fans and chucked the captain's armband stormed down the tunnel and then wanted to leave but he talks about how that was kind of the making of him I think he says something like it was the worst day of my career but it was also the best day of my career because the way he was able to bounce back but it's interesting as well he talks about how close he is still with Arteta you know they still talk and that you know how influential Arteta was and remains on his career sounds like I should check that out on the athletic usage very much so yes do it before it gets aggregated to yeah within an inch of its life just on the Gokker's point obviously he's out Arsenal's next most frequent shot taker after him is Calafiore and Tim was in double figures as well so if they're going to get a winner it wouldn't be surprising to see one of those two pop up with that keep an eye on that a listener Saturday tea time for Sunderland Arsenal next up let's check up on some of the other delights awaiting us like Spurs Man United and hey Crystal Palace Brighton

44:24Spurs Man United is the Saturday lunchtime game what a great way to begin the weekend eh of course this was the Europa League final in Bilbao last May. That was one of four meetings between Spurs and Man United last season. Spurs winning all four of them. Are they going to win this one, Charlie, are they? Ooh, I mean, their home form in the league is so bad. Yes. Over a really prolonged period of time. Obviously, the majority of that is last season when they'd kind of packed in the league. I don't know. It's really hard with Spurs at the moment. It's very kind of up and down and very results focused because there's not a lot of love for the way they play under Thomas Frank so it really is just about whether they win or lose and even you know they beat Everton away and I know there were some fans who felt well we've really not played very well all that's different is that we've scored from set pieces and I think they then felt vindicated when a week later they played Chelsea and created I mean really next to nothing it was 0.1 xg wasn't it their lowest on record yeah it was terrible I was at that game and I spoke to Duncan at the time as well it just felt like it was whatever they tried to do it didn't work so it's been a key issue for them with ball progression out of back and trying to work the ball through the thirds that was well not on show again against Chelsea they couldn't really work it forward in any way so they were just circulating it from side to side and then they kept getting caught out but on the occasions where they did go long which has been a few occasions to great effect against Manchester City being one example when they've gone long and tried to look for a flick on.

45:57The ball just didn't stick to Randall Kolomwani. It just bounced off him and then Chelsea would pick up the second ball and then they would build another wave of attack. So try and play it short, that didn't work. Try and play it long, well that didn't work either. And you could just see it. They felt like they were becoming more and more helpless to the idea that we can't do anything here. There was a lot of turning back, passing to the centre-back and then look around, then pass back to Vicario and then go again. And Chelsea were set up in a really good way to just completely pin them back and then win the ball high up.

46:24then obviously that's how the goal was scored as well. So I don't think Manchester United are quite the same in being that aggressive high up, but I do think they'll see the same problems with ball progression. I've got a new theory that through balls adds aesthetic happiness to football fans. They hit none, don't they? Yeah, they've made the fewest in the Premier League this season. Spurs? Yeah, and I think anyone who watches football, when there's a nice threaded through ball, even when the opposition do it, it's like, well, yeah, that is quite nice. So if your team's not doing it, It just engenders this gloom that pervades your support.

46:59And Manchester City are quite high in that category this year. I do think that their new front line do interchange really well. There's a lot of good off-the-ball movement. So, yeah, I wouldn't be surprised to see this game have a quite similar pattern to the Spurs-Chelsea game. I mean, there's also a situation developed where because the fans are really aware, obviously, of this home record. they get frustrated when the team doesn't play in a progressive enterprising way I think you know we saw last week with van der Ven and Spence not going you know to clap the fans who they felt had been you know on their backs and and there there just is real tension there and it's that classic thing of you know is it about the fact should the fans be jeeing up the players or does it is it the players responsibility to give them something to cheer about but yeah I think we're united to go ahead there's going to be a huge amount of frustration because the fans are going in off the back of this really bad record and they are fed up with it really.

47:54The hope would be I imagine at Spurs that Tuesday's win will have dispelled a lot of those storm clouds. Worth mentioning as well Man United's record away from home nothing to shout about they've only won one game in all competitions since the start of the season away from Old more recently 2-2 against Noddington Forest last Saturday well I guess we'll find out Saturday lunchtime maybe it does look like a lovely opener to the round I do think it's just lastly on Spurs they have in fairness Tom's Frank and the creativity point he has been without Madison and Kulusevsky the whole time he's been there and not from a creativity point but Solanke's barely played as well so they are missing some big attacking weapons Crystal Palace are going to be taking on Brighton Sunday at 2 o 'clock Of course this is a big game for both teams For reasons that are Centuries old The old enmity between these two tribes Who owns Peace Pottage Service station If you win this game You get it for six months Well Palace haven't lost the game at home In 11 matches in the Premier League They did the double over the Seagulls last season First time they ever achieved that In the Premier League The M23 was red and blue Is this going to be a good game, Mark?

49:15You'd like to think so. It just always makes me laugh a little bit with Crystal Palace because they have made a really good start to the season. There was a time where there were 19 games unbeaten, if I'm not mistaken, and they are still ninth in the league. So the amount of conversation around them, they are still perennially between eighth and twelfth or thirteenth. But they have been performing really well. I really like the way that they play. They have a really clear way of playing, and it feels like even though they aren't exactly a surprise package anymore, they still seem to surprise teams when they play in that really structured mid-block.

49:48They then press from there and then get their two number 10s around Jean-Philippe Mateta and just spring forward at pace. The full-backs, or the wing-backs, I should say, get really high and cross the ball a lot. It seems to be such an effective tactic and they do it to great effect. Brighton aren't exactly pushovers as well. They've got three wins in their past five in the Premier League. So I do think it will be an interesting one. Palace putting together another unbeaten run it currently stands at two matches one of which was their 3-0 win away at Liverpool in the League Cup and they followed that up last weekend with a 2-0 victory over Brentford other games coming up at 2 o 'clock on Sunday as is that Palace Brighton clash you've got Villa against Bournemouth and Brentford against Newcastle colour me surprised Brentford-Newcastle is the highest scoring fixture of any Premier League game to have been staged at least eight times.

50:39I was not anticipating that. 4.1 goals per game. Newcastle on the road. We mentioned how much of a chasm there is between their home form and away form. And there they are away from home at the GTEC. Yeah, I think that if they do try and play with the energy intensity that they typically do try to, I think that could play into Brentford's hands because Brentford have been so good at playing those direct balls immediately over the top to Kevin Sharder or Igor Thiago, that given Newcastle's strength in midfield as well, you think if you can bypass them as well because they do have so much energy pushing and pressing forward with those direct balls, it's worked a great effect for Brentford so far this season.

51:21They have been a bit mixed, let's have it right, but I think if they sort of continue with that tactic, that could be quite effective, especially considering Newcastle are bad away from home, shall we say. All right. Brent, where are Brentford in the table? Let me just check. 12, just above Newcastle. Are they? A point above them, yeah. Right. Okay, Aston Villa are taking on Bournemouth at 2 o 'clock, which is another of those all-Basque manager affairs. Both Emery and Iriola are hailing from that magical little corner of the Basque country where all the great managers come from. Gipuzqua, possibly, they call it.

51:55Anyway. Oh, only the bottom two, that's Forest and Wolves, have scored fewer Premier League goals this season than Villa. That doesn't sound good. Yeah, it's slightly odd that given they tended to have a lot of attacking options, but they have been very goal shy. And I presume Mark pretty shot shy as well. Is this a conversion issue? I haven't checked the exact numbers. I think Ollie Watkins has just been quite poor, really sort of out of form in general. I think in general as well, there's a lot of teams who have evolved a little bit, tried to add an extra string to their bow tactically. And it feels like Villa have just, especially the way that Emery is, he likes to just stick to what he knows and does it to great effect.

52:33And they haven't really evolved too much in the way of personnel or style compared to last season. And if you stand still in this league. Yeah, well, I guess that's true. I mean, they lost some attacking players that even, you know, like Rashford Nascensio, they loaned in last season. Yeah, absolutely. Which two o 'clock game will you be making your choice after your brilliant decision to stay with Bruges Barcelona midweek? Duncan, you've got Palace Bryan, Villa Bournemouth, Brentford Newcastle and Nottingham Forest against Leeds United. Could that be the one? Could be. Could be. I mean, you could, if you're a maverick, and some say, I am.

53:07You could do the new... The multi-screen. The multi-screen thing. I'm not maverick enough for that. No? I did... Yeah, I'm not a fan of that. No. Well, but I think, yeah, Forest Leeds, also, you know, we've got to European Cup funders in the 1970s, and don't shut up about it, Classico, is a big game. Because they are both in a relegation battle. Very much so, yeah. Forrest are showing signs of improvement Obviously Forrest The reason this is on Sunday Is Forrest are playing in the Europa League At Storm Graz This evening I do want to hear Sean Dyche say that out loud And hopefully I will But yeah Leeds I think Leeds are concerned Their away form is very bad They I think You know They're about to head into a run Of very difficult fixtures as well So if If Forrest did win this They would only be two points behind Leeds And I think Yeah You do start to fear for Daniel Farker.

54:03Yeah, that does sort of feel semi-inevitable. The other teams down the bottom there involved in some intriguing games. West Ham, who are 18th currently, take on Burnley, the team immediately above them in the table, at Saturday 3 o 'clock. Scott Parker up against the side where he won the Football Writers Player of the Year award back in 2011. It was a strange time, wasn't it? It was a strange time. Very old season. Alan Pardew and Tony Pulis winning Manager of the Year around 2012 and 2014. Good Lord. It was almost like the last sort of fight of old football going on. We can't let the foreign football completely take over.

54:43Let's just hand out Manager of the Year awards and Player of the Year awards to Yeoman. Yeah, I mean, 10-11, the last season of Keys and Grey on Sky Sports as well. It was all changed then. It's an inflection point. Different world. There you go West Ham of course as Mark was referencing with that fine performance and victory against Newcastle at home last weekend and Nunu will be looking for more of the same as they host the Clarets Meanwhile Fulham who are very much in that area same points as Leeds will be heading up to Everton who are only a point above them in the table Oh this is a Marco Silva Classico because of course he used to manage Everton back in his snake days Snake days from that one of the great Premier League moments is Watford fans presumably going out could have mail ordered them buying lots of rubber snakes to take to Goodison Park to wave around and I presume throw on the pitch but I can't confirm that I do love the idea of when you leave home as well for that game checking your wallet phone got my snake yep I'm good to go John you forgot you got that bag of snakes oh yeah sorry yep the other game down the bottom we talked about it a little bit is Wolves, who are eight points from safety on two points after 10 matches, visiting Stamford Bridge.

56:02Now, Chelsea strong favourites for this, but there was that remarkable 4-3, which did go Chelsea's way at Molyneux in the Carabao Cup just two weeks ago. And Enzo Morescu's side will just have completed a 6 ,000-mile round trip. And potentially, Wolves might be enjoying an interim manager bounce here Yeah, with under-21 coach James Collins and under-18 boss Richard Walker in charge of this game. I think that might be the same Richard Walker that used to play for Wickham on Lovermaston Villa. Maybe. Yeah, a reasonably tidy forward who clearly wasn't good enough for the Premier League circa sort of late 90s.

56:41But anyway, we thought, are Wolves bad? That's my, on the Athletics Alternative Premier League table, out every Thursday. This week it's about expected goals against. Expected goals against. Yeah. So Wolves have got the maddest underperformance, or overperformance, depending on how you cut it, I've seen for a long time. They've let in 22 goals a season in the Premier League, but their XG against is only 13. So that's like nine. They've conceded nine more than you'd expect. Where does that put them on the table? Bottom in that category. Where would... Had they conceded the same number of goals?

57:18I mean, well, they'd have more points. Really? Yeah, the old classic league thing. But I do think for a manager, obviously Gary O 'Neill didn't fancy a return, but there are some numbers at Wolves this season where a manager who's thinking of taking them over might look at them and go, they're maybe not as bad as people think. The problem is they are a long way adrift now. No one from this situation, two points from 10, has ever stayed up. We did, on an entirely unrelated note, we did a podcast about that Derby County season in which Paul Jewell very much thinks, no, they're not as bad as everyone says as he heads up the M1.

57:57There was a lot of controversy about what exit he took. But the key point here is that he thought, yeah, they're not that bad. Even for a man as advanced as Paul Jewell in 2007, he didn't have access to these cutting-edge metrics. That's true. Interesting. Interesting perspective on Wolves and their predicament as they prepare to visit Stamford Bridge. If you're one of the team, the opposite of Wolves, a team that have let in far fewer than you'd imagine, it's our old friends Tottenham Hotspur. They've only let in eight, but you'd expect to let them in almost 15. Does that mean Vicario has been really excellent?

58:34He's probably been the best keeper of the season in terms of keeping them out. And you could point maybe at the goalkeeper situation at Wolves as an issue. Yeah. All right. That's the Premier League. weekend straight after man city liverpool we'll be getting together here in this very studio to record our weekend reaction for your monday morning pleasure and you can watch us doing it live if you wish on youtube or just hang around and we'll come at you on monday morning in your ears but now that's it though so many many thanks mark carrie james for your presence and all your excellent editorial content many thanks Duncan many thanks Charlie too thank you I'm going to Turin next week so I might be tapping you up for some suggestions no it's James Horncastle who you need to speak to about his favourite kebab shop next to the pub that serves the all day he's a big fan of Turin he really rates it highly the middle bit of it is really really nice the outskirts I'm less keen on but you know it all goes Giro started there last year I think and yeah it looked lovely and there'll be Winter Olympics action of course of course all happening in Turin alright yes listen sorry that's enough we will catch up with you soon have a great time in the meanwhile goodbye

1:00:11for The Athletic on Apple, Spotify and all the usual places. We're also at The Totally Football Show on Insta and at The Totally Show on YouTube. The Totally Football Show is an Athletic Media Company production.