World Cup Draw: England v Croatia, Scotland v Brazil + a good result for USA

0:00The Athletic FC

0:30It's the FIFA 2026 World Cup draw on this Totally Extra.

0:43Saturday the 6th of December. Listener, welcome on board to this Totally Extra. We've got a global spread ready to talk to us about what happened in Washington Friday night. Natalie Zjedrov, Sky Sports, sits here. Hi, Natalie. Hello. Hi, Natalie. Excited? Excited is one of the adjectives I would use, yes. All right. Duncan, what adjective describes your state right now? Yeah, very excited, actually. I like seeing the draw emerge like a butterfly. So, yeah, now I can envisage how things are going to pan out next summer. So, yeah, pumped. Yeah, for the flapping of those wings. Duncan Alexander, of course, on the way.

1:28We've got Mahe Mazzahi, who's going to be telling us about Morocco and more. Of the nine African nations currently qualified, that number could swell to 10. Also, Lee Wingate of The Sweeper is going to fill in some of the gaps in our knowledge of Yokura Sows. And Paul Tenorio, who's giving us his thoughts on USA, who had a fairly amenable draw. Or I would say, how far can they go, though? We'll have Paul on that later on. That hole emerging from the chrysalis took a bit of time, didn't it? Eh, Duncan? Mm, yeah. I enjoyed one of our correspondents saying that in Spain, they had only 20 minutes of the broadcast left and they hadn't reached a draw yet and there was widespread panic.

2:16So, yeah, it did go on. But I think no one can say it wasn't memorable. I think I will remember that draw more than previous ones. So, you know, well done FIFA. What would you remember the most? Many things. Rio Ferdinand having a video call with Matthew McConaughey. Obviously the Peace Prize, an emotional moment for anyone who saw it. So, yeah, it was different, but effective. Natalie, what was your reaction? What was the reaction in Brazil as well? I think it was the same reaction all over the world. It's just long and unexplainable at times. It made me think if every draw is that long and we just forget it because it's every four years, or if this one was especially full of five.

3:07I'm going with the latter. But what emerged from it were 48 teams in 12 groups, although, of course, not all those 48 teams are yet decided. Still six places to be defined by the playoffs. Key question, which is the group of death? Is there such a thing still with the current format? Well, we've done some analysis, snap analysis on the Athletic using FIFA rankings and team strength. And worryingly, it's Group L is the closest to a group of death. So England are in Group Hell, more like, for England. Although with 48 teams, it's not quite at the levels of previous tournaments where there were genuine groups of death.

3:50But it's a tricky draw. definitely trickier than England would have wanted, I suspect. OK. Other popular nominations, Group I, France, Senegal and Norway, with then one of Bolivia, Suriname or Iraq. Michael Cox suggests Group F because it features a decent UEFA side, says Michael, Ukraine, Sweden, Poland or Albania, alongside Netherlands, Japan and Tunisia. Says Michael, I'd suggest this group will have the strongest fourth place side, which is arguably what really matters at this tournament. It's wise. There you go. From Mr. Cups, yeah. Yeah. Natalie? Yeah, that's interesting because I think it's the more well-balanced group, Group F.

4:33Excellent. We're going to have a little romp through all the groups, hearing from a variety of people along the way. Of the groups drawn, which match-up are you most looking forward to seeing? Natalie? God, can I for a face too? There's some tasty ones in there. Yeah, there's France, Norway and Group I and Bafi against Holland, early golden boot face-off. We're going to get into that group, but it's the third match, this one. So it has an effect. I mean, of course, one of the big matches is going to be Brazil-Morocco because it's the opening match of that group. And I think that counts a lot. There is still going to be like this fresh expectation around the World Cup.

5:18and not only because I'm biased, James. I think that's a really good point about the order that it comes and that's why I think England-Croatia will be good. I think France-Senegal will be massive. I think Scotland-Haiti will be good because, you know, you look at that group and if Scotland are going to get through, which obviously they've famously never done in a World Cup before, they're going to need to win that match because you're going to probably need four points and that would leave them needing a draw against one of Brazil or Morocco. so we know that Scotland have had their historical issues at World Cups but I think that will be a fascinating match can Scott McTominay do it against the Haitians Very much the question on everyone's minds Let's get into the groups and starting off with the one that Duncan calls the toughest of all This is the Totally Football Show with James Richardson part of the Athletic FC podcast network

6:29All right, England drawn in Group L. Football, bloody L. L is other people, those potential headlines for you. The other teams being Croatia, Panama and Ghana, two of which teams England faced at the 2018 World Cup. Panama got beat 6-1 by Gareth Southgate's side. Croatia fared rather better, of course, in the semi-final. Once England qualifies winners of the group, they'll face somebody in the round of 32. Then Mexico, in Mexico City perhaps, in the last 16. Then it'll be Brazil and Miami in the quarter-finals. And once they're through that, it's Argentina in the semi-finals. and then we'll just have to see who it's going to be in the final.

7:12But it's a fascinating draw. A tough one, though, Duncan. Yeah, I think it's, as we've said, it's not impossible. And it shouldn't be. England should still expect to win that group. But I think as somebody watches England, I think I would have probably hoped for teams we haven't played before, a few more of those. You know, there was a possibility of getting lots of different teams, obviously. but I think Croatia, there's been, every World Cup it's like, is this Croatia team? You know, is this one World Cup too far? And then they just carry on. So, you know, they're always going to be good. Panama, since we played them in 2018, have really improved.

7:51They're ranked 30th in the world and they're above Wales. So they, I think, are going to be tricky, particularly in an environment where they're going to be more comfortable. You know, they will be very used from CONCACAF to playing in these stadiums and in these environments. So I think that's going to be trickier than it was in 2018. And then Ghana have been in, as discussed, have been in really good form the last year. They're not at AFCOM, which I think could help them as well. They can just fully concentrate on the World Cup. So, yeah, I don't envisage England not getting out of the group, but I think it's going to be tougher than first thought.

8:30Well, I think it'll be even tougher for the other teams if you look at England's squad and their extraordinary qualifying record. 11 consecutive competitive matches, one for the first time in their history, didn't concede a single goal in qualifying. Natalie, why might England not only top the group but win the World Cup? They are definitely up there to do that. I would expect them to top this group, absolutely, even with Croatia. Of course, there is the reference of Croatia, 2018, but after that, England beat Croatia at the Euros 2020. So that's a positive. It's a familiar side. Of course, with Croatia, as Duncan said, there is the aging thing.

9:10Is this Croatian side aging and it's not as strong as previous ones? Well, Brazilians wouldn't. I was afraid to get Croatia in that group, especially considering what happened in the last World Cup in Qatar when Brazil got beaten by Croatia in the quarterfinals. And with Ghana, I mean, it's an interesting one because they have players like Semenyo, like Kudos. They won't be at the AFCON, as Duncan mentioned. There is the positive of already concentrating in the World Cup, but also you could gain momentum in the AFCON if you have a good run there. So there is two sides of that. And with Panama, it's their second ever World Cup.

9:54I don't expect them to be as bad as they were against England in Russia. And also tradition in this type of tournament really counts. So, yeah, in paper, it's not an easy group, but I would definitely expect them to top that group. And also, it is being Group L, not only is funny because we never said that about basically anyone, but also it's the shortest turnaround between group stage and the knockout phase. So, yeah, that is a factor as well. Well, we often talk in cup competitions about the difference that a few days or even 24 hours of extra wrestling make. England starting six days after the first teams to get their tournament underway.

10:43So only 33 days between the first match and a potential final were England to reach it. That's 33 days, eight games, I think it would be. And especially in those conditions, that could well prove to be more than just a detail. Duncan? Yeah, I think so. And also, you've got to think about it the other way around as well. I think it's that waiting around to start the tournament. You know, players cooped up in a camp. We've seen at previous World Cups where, you know, England and many other nations, morale becomes frayed just because there's so much waiting around and so much kind of pressure just sat waiting for the tournament to get underway so yeah it's going to be a very difficult tournament for all nations I think to manage in terms of conditions and travel and and turnaround so yes it's interesting.

11:29Beyond the schedule do you have any other concerns about England with this group and indeed beyond? We all know that everyone sits down with these groups and says well this team will finish first, this team will finish second. It never quite plays out like that. But if the teams that we expect to win their groups do win their groups, then it should be England v Mexico in the last 16. And then it could be, obviously there's a round of 32 as well before that, but then it could be England, Brazil in the quarterfinals. So that's obviously reminiscent of 2002. But I think we'll find out later today in terms of exact schedules, but it could mean quite a hot path for England.

12:07I think they could be based in quite a lot of warm environments, which isn't going to help some of the England squad, I think. I mean, Tuchel's already talked about keeping substitutes inside during games because of the heat that they experience. Players like Cole Palmer will have experienced that last summer in the Club World Cup. So, yeah, I think there's going to be so many intangibles in this World Cup compared to the last World Cup in Qatar. it was a fairly manageable one because all the games were, you know, the weather wasn't that hot because it was in the winter and the stadium was also close.

12:39I think it was quite a sort of logistically easy World Cup, whereas this one I think is going to stretch teams in terms of nutrition and recovery and all those things a lot. So, you know, England will clearly put a lot of effort and finance and investment into that. But, yes, I think when you see it planned out like this, it does, I think it feels more daunting, a tournament, than it did maybe 48 hours ago. I see. All right. Oh, Natalie. I think not only for England, but Duncan mentioned the heat and we're talking about short turnarounds and the weather. There will be storms, there will be cancellations, flights, logistics.

13:17I think it's a huge concern for every team. Now that the draw is done, everyone's going to get into how they're going to work out their logistics, how they're going to optimize recovery, how they're going to... Even for private flights, they can be cancelled. So it is going to be a World Cup different from any other in this sense. And it's a huge concern for everyone. I'm pumped. All right. Well, there are 11 other groups out there beyond Group L. Let's get into those, starting with A, next.

13:55This is the Totally Football Show, part of the Athletic FC podcast network. The Athletic is the only place you can read articles by Daniel Taylor, Amy Lawrence, Phil Hay, James Pearce, Oli Kay and the very best football writers around. Group A everybody, the Republic of Ireland, Troy Parrott, they could be in Group A which currently features Mexico, South Korea who are on their 11th consecutive World Cup. South Africa, who are present for the first time since they hosted it. And the winner of UEFA Playoff D, which is going to be one of Republic of Ireland, Czech Republic, Denmark or North Macedonia.

14:31Macedonia. Macedonia, that's what they're called. Natalie. On Mexico, obviously, great atmosphere. It's great to have the World Cup back at the Azteca. And Javier Aguirre, Mexico's manager, was a player when they last hosted the World Cup in 86. So, nice story. Very nice indeed. Lovely to see Canada, who've lost all six of their World Cup final matches back in the tournament, led, of course, by Jesse Marsh. They're in Group B with Switzerland, who have quietly put together one of the most consistent records in international tournaments. They've reached the last 16 of four of their past five affairs and been quarter-finalists of the past two Euros.

15:11Also in that group, Qatar, whose squad, I believe, is entirely drawn from the Qatari League. and they'll also be the winner of a UEFA playoff group. It's the one featuring Italy, Northern Ireland, Wales and Bosnia-Herzegovina. The Italians are extremely excited about the group they would be potentially in if they get through that. Because it does look a relatively easy one, would you say? Yeah, I mean, we'll come on to Group D with the USA as well. But I think all the host nations can be pleased with the draws they've got, which, you know, that's the beauty of random life. But, yeah, I think Jesse Marsh looked fairly calm when he saw those teams being read out.

15:55OK. Jesse Marsh managing Canada, Qatar, managed by Julian Lopetegui. He'll be leading a team out of the World Cup for the first time as a manager, assuming Real Madrid don't announce he's going to be their new boss a few days before the tournament. Fingers crossed. As happened in 2018. Group C. Hey, Natalie, this one's got Brazil in it. Brazil with Morocco, Scotland and Haiti. Opening game, though, for Brazil is Morocco, who were regarded as a team that could. We'll hear from Meher very, very shortly about them and indeed the other African prospects. But how are Brazil looking, Natalie, right now?

16:34What's the reaction been to the draw? Well, divided, split reaction, because there are the people who think it's a very positive thing to have a strong side in the group stage, but also the ones who just wanted to cruise through group stage. I'm in the group, I'm in between, because I think it's good to have a great opponent, a strong opponent in group stage. You're talking about Scotland here, I imagine. Oh, yes, sorry, yes. Besides Scotland, yeah, Morocco. But also, it's the first game. And I wouldn't choose Morocco as the first game. It's always a tricky game. The first game at a World Cup is always tricky.

17:13So that's the reaction to most people. But I do have an important stat on groups. France was at Group C when they won in 2018. Argentina was in Group C when they won 2022. Brazil was Group C in 2002. So I think we can fight these facts. It is coming our way, Group C, Brazil. Group C for coincidence, yeah. The champions. Why might Brazil win this World Cup, Natalie? And why might they not? Well, we always have the talent. We do have really good players. But I think the main point of optimism in Brazil is around Carlo Ancelotti. And they spoke a lot about that in the draw yesterday. How much of an aura he brings to the team.

18:09How much confidence. And tranquility, which is something Brazil was desperate for in the past three to four years when we had all these different managers. The negative point, the downside of this is that Brazil didn't have a great qualifier. And there's nothing that points to Brazil winning this World Cup, unlike 2022 when the preparation was good, 2018 when the preparation was good. So in paper, everything was very chaotic. But in 94 and 2002, when we won the World Cup, preparations were also completely chaotic. 94, we almost didn't qualify. 2002, we also had four managers before the World Cup.

18:54So we can thrive on chaos. We just need to be able to navigate this. And it's going to be interesting because now it is officially confirmed Brazil is playing France in March and Croatia. So two very strong opponents before the call-up for the World Cup. So it's going to be a good test. We're going to have a good idea of where we are now. Okay. Also, James, talking about excitement around the World Cup, yesterday, Brazil's probably most popular brand of beer, they released their new publicity. and Ancelotti is their big star. And he's talking about the beer and how much we can be excited about the World Cup.

19:45It was very Brazilian, very unusual and extremely funny. So I think that says a lot as well about how everyone's getting on board with Ancelotti and the World Cup and let's just get excited, which was the main motto of the campaign. Yet another Brazilian manager getting the choppy. Yes. While also in the group Haiti, who are in the World Cup for the first time since 1974, Scotland, who are poignantly the team that have played at the World Cup the most times without ever getting past the first round, but arrive at this tournament on a real wave of positive momentum after those great performances in the final qualifying matches.

20:28Yeah, I think lots of people have focused on the fact that Scotland's last World Cup in 1998, they played Brazil obviously in the group stage but I think the more accurate comparison is 1990 when they were also in the group with Brazil and they began their campaign with a game against a CONCACAF team in the form of Costa Rica and lost and that kind of ruined the group for them because in the second game they beat Sweden which was a great result but then obviously played Brazil in the final match and as expected lost that game and didn't get through and again it was a World Cup where third place teams could get through So I think, as we mentioned before, I think that first game against Haiti is going to be so, so big.

21:07You know, if they can get a win in that match, I do fancy them to get a point in one of their last two games and get through. I think it can happen. Well, the final group game will be against Brazil. That might be taking place in Miami. Scotland might hope that Brazil are already qualified at that point. Natalie? And it's going to be a great party. Can you imagine the atmosphere? Brazil, Scotland. I mean, I am excited. Yeah. Five times Brazilian Scotland have met in the group stage of the World Cup. But Morocco, the team that perhaps most trouble Brazilian minds heading into the World Cup. Let's hear then from Meher Mazahi about the semifinalists from four years ago, whether they're perhaps even stronger this time around, the Atlas Lions, and indeed the other prospects from the nine, potentially still ten, African nations to be joining us at the tournament.

22:18Meher, World Cup coming. Meher back on the show. Good to see you, Meher. Thanks for having me on. Excuse my voice. I've lost it over the last week or so. And I have a little bit of a cough. So just apologies. Yeah. Okay, don't whisper. That's the worst thing you can do when you're losing your voice. Don't whisper. It strains the vocal cords even further. Yeah. Well, let's do the talking for you where possible. You've got a whole bunch of African nations going to this World Cup. I'm guessing that Morocco still figure as the side most likely to. Is that right? I think so, particularly because their group is, I think, manageable.

23:00Initially, when they were doing the draw live, I saw Brazil and then Morocco. And I started saying, oh, no, I was convinced Norway was going to be the third team that was drawn in that group. But luckily for them, they've only got Scotland. No offense, I'll tell you, Scottish people. No, but Scotland and Haiti, I think, is a little more manageable, in my opinion, than Norway, with all the respect to everybody. This is a hot Morocco side. They've won 17 consecutive matches, which is a world record. Now, many of those matches were played at home. They had a pretty, again, manageable, to be polite, World Cup qualifying group.

23:33But this is a team which will be playing in African Cup of Nations in two weeks with an immense amount of pressure on them. I was just in Morocco four or five days ago, and anything less than a final appearance could spell the dismissal of their coach, Waleed Regaghi, the same person that took them to the semifinals of the 2022 FIFA World Cup. So there's a crazy amount of pressure. And this, I think, is something we should keep in mind for all seven African sides that are playing the AFCON. AFCON can be a major inflection point and it can completely disrupt any kind of preparation that we have over the next six, seven months for the World Cup.

24:09So there's still a lot of questions to answer before we get to next summer. Brazilians, as you can imagine, are very worried about Morocco. And I think the main question is, how much better are Morocco after four years in Qatar? Because in Qatar, Regragui, he took over three months before the World Cup. So we can only imagine that he managed to develop his work really well in the past four years. Yeah, I think Morocco have gotten deeper. The amount of talent that they have at each position usually runs two or three deep now. However, in certain areas of the pitch, there are holes where we didn't see any holes prior.

24:49So I'll give you a small example. At the 2022 World Cup, they had a pretty strong central defensive pairing of Romain Saïs and Nath Agred. At the time, Saïs was playing, I think, a Wolverhampton Wanderers. Agred was, I think it was just prior to his move to West Ham United, but they were both pretty much in their primes or Agred was nearly there. Now there's big, big questions about who the second center half is going to be. Saiz sort of went off to Qatar. He's been suffering a lot of injury problems. Naif Agard is still there, but he's also injured going into the AFCON. And we don't know who the second center half is going to be.

25:22There are several options, but none of them are really at that level of 2022. But if you look at, for example, at the striking position, at the winger position, you know, in central midfield, there they have a lot more depth and a lot more quality than 2022. So it's a little bit of a mixed bag. And this Moroccan side isn't a side that has been tested too, too much, as I've mentioned before. but I do anticipate them being slightly stronger than in 2022. Well, nine African nations currently qualified and that number could swell to 10 if DR Congo gets through their playoff. Mahir, who else is one place to go deep, do you think?

25:57So prior to the draw, my pick was Senegal. But unfortunately, they've been drawing in a group with France and Norway, which is very, very tough. I feel really bad for whoever's going to get out of that playoff, whether it's Iraq or Bolivia or Suriname. That's going to be a very, very difficult group for any of them. But I like the look of South Africa, and I think South Africa are a team that most people that aren't really tuned into African football are going to be underrating because their best players play on the continent to play in the domestic league. So people will have heard of Ronwin Williams because at the last AFCON, I think he saved four consecutive penalties.

26:30He's been nominated for the Yashin Award, a very good goalkeeper, plays great with the ball at his feet. but I don't think people have heard of, for example, Kulisu Mudao, a right back that, at the current moment, with Hakimi sort of scootering around on that, whatever that device is, it's kind of like a crutch and a scooter at the same time. I think Mudao is probably the best right back in Africa at the moment. Tebohu Mokwena, the defensive midfielder at Mamelodi Sundowns, is again one of the better central midfielders in Africa at the moment. People won't know this because they probably don't watch Mamelodi Sundowns, there's just too much football on all the time.

27:02But South Africa are a very, very good side and one of the best sides, top three, I would say, in Africa since the last African Cup of Nations. So also have a pretty manageable group. Of course, they have Mexico, South Korea, and then one of Denmark, Czech Republic, Ireland. I think that's going to be a very, very even group where any two, probably three sides are going to make it out. And the opening match, of course, be at the Azteca, Mexico versus South Africa, a rematch, of course of the 2010 opening match. CPO Icheba Lala, goal for South Africa, goal for all of Africa. I don't know what the commentator is going to say this time around, but I think it's going to evoke a lot of memories.

27:37You mentioned AFCON and of course Ghana won't be involved in the AFCON. Do you think it's a positive, a negative for England considering the group? It's a great question, Natalie. I think for Ghana and for Cape Verde, they can start the World Cup preparations right now because they don't have to think about AFCON. For a team like Egypt, I'm 90 % sure it's not going to have the same coach that they'll have at AFCON at the World Cup. Hussam Hassan is kind of like a madman, and he's already going on public television platforms and screaming about the undue pressure that's being put on him attacking media members.

28:14It's simply untenable. So unless they win the AFCON or make it to the final or something like that, he's probably not going to be there at the World Cup. So I have no idea who they're going to appoint as a coach after. I have no idea what any of the next three, four, five months are going to look like. For Ghana and for Cape Verde, as you mentioned, you know, they don't have the AFCON to worry about. They can start planning from now. I don't think there's going to be any coaching changes for either of them. Otoido is going to be coaching for Ghana. And Cape Verde are going to be headed by Bubista, who I think deserves to because he's the one that got them there in the first place.

28:41My problem with Ghana is that if you watch them recently, they kind of have an arsenal thing about them where they've been killing teams with set pieces. England, I think traditionally, the idea we have of them, but I think even in reality, pretty good in the air. So I don't think Ghana is going to be able to do much against England. It's all going to be about them versus Croatia, fourth place in 2022, 2018 second place. I don't fancy Ghana much to get out of that group. Mehe, you were discounting a little bit Senegal's chances because of that tough draw. But given that two-thirds of the third-place sides are still going to go through, Do you really not want to figure them in as likely contenders?

29:20They've got such a stacked squad. Senegal, I feel good about. Again, the group is difficult, but I do think they can definitely get out. As you mentioned, eight out of 12 third-place teams will advance into the knockout stages. They are the most complete team in Africa. In my opinion, they're the best team in Africa at the moment. Just 1A or Morocco 1B. And they have a new coach. His name is Pap Thiao. He's actually on the bench, I think, in that famous match against France in 2002. I think also an opening match, if I'm not mistaken, in Korea, Japan. So yeah, he was part of that squad. He knows what it takes to beat France, I guess, if we want to push a journalistic narrative a bit.

29:56But he's been a slight improvement over his predecessor, Alyous Hisse. And that's saying something, because Alyous Hisse was nearly there for a decade. And I think he lost something like nine matches in nine years. Most of that was at the World Cup against England. He did not lose to teams he should not have lost to. He obviously won the African Cup of Nations in 2021, actually played in 2022. And Pap Dio, he's been an improvement, particularly in the attacking output. Al-Yousisi was sort of at times seen as very pragmatic, too pragmatic. They're playing better attacking football and they also have dealt really well with the transition of Sadio Mane, Khalidou Koulibaly, Idrissa Ghanage, that older generation.

30:33And then the younger kids, Pap Matarsar at Tottenham, Lamin Kamara at Monaco, Malik Diouf at West Ham United. They've managed to marry those generations very well and it's been seamless. Mahir, what about your team, Algeria? And what one game after that draw are you most looking forward to seeing? Anybody with any notion of World Cup history will know that Algeria is looking forward to playing against Austria. It's a right, a historic wrong. 1982, the shame of Huron, as we like to call it, where Algeria, in their first World Cup appearance, they beat West Germany. They went on to beat Chile 3-2.

31:10and then with two wins they managed to be eliminated out of the group because we think that West Germany and Austria colluded to sort of eliminate Algeria. West Germany scored one goal. Please Duncan, take this away. I know you know this probably better than I do. Well, not only was it collusion but it was so blatant that that was what made FIFA stop final group games happening at different times. That's why we've got simultaneous final group games so we ostensibly can avoid a repeat situation. But yeah, as soon as that draw came out, it was like, whoo-hoo, here we go. I mean, I don't know, like, do people hold grudges across generations?

31:45I think they do, right? I think Algerians are excited to play Austria because of that. But besides that, obviously, if you're an Algerian, you see Argentina immediately nervous and excited. A chance to play against the world champions, a chance to play against probably the best player that played football. But we've only played Argentina once. We lost 4-3 in the Camp Nou in Friendly in 2007. We've only played Austria twice. We've lost both of those matches. And then Jordan, we've only played them once and drew that match. So we've never won in the four matches we've played against these three opponents.

32:15And I think at times you think that as a stylistic matchup against a certain nation, you're confident. So, for example, we're always very confident that if we play Germany, we're going to push them far. If we don't beat them, we're going to push them far. We don't know what to expect from these opponents. And we don't know what to expect from this national team because we have Vladimir Pekovic from a Switzerland manager, one of the best attacks in African World Cup qualifying alongside Morocco. we also have one of the worst defenses out of any team that finished first place in World Cup qualifying alongside Kate Bird.

32:43So we score a lot, we concede a lot, usually not a great formula when you get to knockout stages or when you get into international competitions. There's not been a lot of happiness surrounding Petkovic and the team's performances throughout his reign really. We'll see what happens, there's not a huge amount of confidence at the moment but I do think that again it's not like the most difficult group. Okay, will we be seeing Luka Zidane having a busy time of it in goal for Algeria then? Perhaps, he was very sceptical when he was selected, I don't know if this was a PR thing He was starting every match in the second division in Spain So I mean from a sporting perspective he is probably at the same level as our other goalkeepers One of them is playing in Algeria, the other one is playing in the Middle East So he's starting for Granada and recently he's been playing very very well actually And the thing that separates Luka Zidane is that he can play with the ball at his feet He plays very technical football.

33:35His distribution is very good. Gets that from his mother. So I think, yeah, probably ever from Veronica. I think there's a good chance, actually, that we see him play matches for Algeria, maybe at the AFCON if it goes well. Then perhaps at the World Cup as well. It just, I think, depends on how Algeria wants to play their football. If they want to be a team that plays out from the back, Lucas Zidane is probably the person to go to at the moment. Excellent. Meher, that's brilliant. I look forward so much to speaking more with you as the World Cup rolls around and then as we get underway with that huge mega tournament I hope your voice gets better and thank you so much for using up what was left of it for today Thanks for having me Speak soon guys

34:20You're listening to the Totally Football Show with James Richardson now with you four times a week Keep up to date with us on Insta and enjoy us in glorious Technicolor on YouTube at The Totally Show Group D, as we move along, features USA, Australia and Paraguay. We'll hear from Paul Tenorio very, very shortly about USMNT's prospects. He was at the draw in snowy Washington on Friday night. Group E, meanwhile, has Germany, Ecuador, who I see a lot of people are calling dark horses, Ivory Coast, your current AFCON holders, and Curaçao, twinned with Swindon, in a draw that Bill called Unlucky for Nagelsmann.

35:04Duncan. Yeah. I think this is one of the most intriguing groups. As you said, I think if you lined up all the dark horses on a racetrack, I think Ecuador are the leaders in that race at the moment. Natalie, you've seen Ecuador, of course, in the Commibol qualifying. Yeah. And where they finished second behind Argentina. Yeah. Yeah, they were runner-ups. They're very well organized, James. They can defend really well. And I think that's their main strength. In their past 11 games in qualifiers, they conceded only one goal. If I can point out to a problem, it's that they haven't been scoring a lot.

35:43They had 14 goals in 18 games. And their manager is Sebastián Beccasetti. He worked under Jorge Sampaoli for many years. and their team. They have players like Piero Incapié from Arsenal is one of the defenders. And of course, they have one of the best midfielders in the world in Moises Caicedo. So they have a good, talented generation and experienced manager in a well-organized team. Excellent. Well, that's Group E. Group F features another of your Dark Horse contenders, Michael Cox's nominee, Japan, who also fit into that well-organized category and looked absolutely sensational in qualifying 16 games they had to go through in the mammoth Asian process.

36:25Only lost one of them. They were the first team after the host nations to actually qualify for USA. They're in Group F with Netherlands, Tunisia, and whoever comes to UEFA Playoff B route, which is Ukraine, Sweden, Poland, or Albania. Would you make a Group F, Duncan? Yeah, another group. And yeah, I think it's interesting. I mean, I think that whoever wins this playoff is quite interesting, because if it is Sweden, obviously you know Graham Potcher at World Cup being nice you know Gokerez etc so this one feels you know quite evenly balanced I think D which we're going to come back to is the most if you look at FIFA rankings is the most evenly matched of all the groups but this one is not too far behind ok well on that note then let's head back and hear from Paul Tenorio of USA and their prospects in Group D

37:25I think the immediate reaction is that this is a very favorable draw for the U.S. men's national team. When you sit back and you look at the possibilities, and we did that. We went through what some of the weaker groups were for the U.S. Australia was on my list as one of the opponents the U.S. would have liked. Paraguay was on my list as one of the better opponents that could be drawn from South America. Obviously, I think part of the strength of this group depends on who comes out of that European playoff qualifier. If it's Turkey, the group gets a bit more difficult. They're ranked 15th in the ELO ratings and a very good team.

37:55Turkey beat the U.S. in a friendly 2-1 in June and it was not as close as the score showed. But if Turkey gets upset in that playoff, the U.S. arguably might have the weakest group of any in the World Cup. So for a home World Cup, for this draw, where it could have gone, one of the best case scenarios for the U.S. and I think undoubtedly puts them in a position to win the group and be in a very favorable spot to try to make a run in this tournament. It's one test run! It's five goals for the United States! Tanner Tessman just on the pitch! The team is playing much better. Mauricio Pochettino has done an amazing job of manufacturing competition in this group and belief out of that competition because the U.S.

38:38is playing better. And part of the playing better is against two of their opponents in this group. They beat Australia in October 2-1 in Denver. They beat Paraguay in November 2-1. So they know these opponents. They played well against them. They were by far the better team, I thought, against both of these opponents. So against both Australia and Paraguay, I think their strengths looked better than the opposition's strengths. So things are definitely positive right now for the U.S., definitely optimistic. And I think this only reinforces that and can build belief within the group.

39:12I think the hope has always been, the belief has always been, can they get to the quarterfinals? And when you look at this group and you look at Group G, so if they win the group, they would play the Group G winner. And Belgium was the pot one team in Group G, which is also favorable of all the scenarios. Again, I think it puts the U.S. in a position where you start dreaming of, can you do what was done in 2002 and get to a quarterfinal?

39:42Paul Tenorio, well, USA dreaming of a Group G opponent then in the knockouts. Group G, who's in that? Belgium, Iran, Egypt and New Zealand, who are now managed by former Wolves and Walsall defender Darren Baisley. Duncan. Yes, I remember him, seeing him play Wickham on many occasions, didn't shout, you're going to one day manage at the World Cup, possibly with New Zealand, but maybe I should have done it. On FIFA, if we're looking at group strength, this is one of the weakest groups in terms of FIFA ratings, etc. So I think Belgium will be pleased with this draw. Also, Belgium's first game is going to be in Seattle, which for Kevin De Bruyne's complexion, I imagine, is a bonus because it's probably going to be the coolest of these cities.

40:35What about Group D with USA, Australian, Paraguay? Paraguay, who, of course, they beat, as Paul was mentioning, not so long ago. Yeah, last time Paraguay played the World Cup was 2010. So they're very excited to be back after 16 years. Their coach is Gustavo Alfaro. He led Ecuador to the World Cup in Qatar and now he's with Paraguay. He's an Argentinian coach. He's very experienced. He managed sides like Boca Juniors and Arsenal de Sarangie, where he did really well. He won the Apertura with Arsenal. So, yeah, they're happy to be there. They will compete and they can be a bit of a handful, but I would expect the US to top that group.

41:19Excellent. Well, five groups we haven't talked about. We'll be hitting those and hearing from Lee Wingate about some of the other sides who could spring a big surprise come the World Cup next summer.

41:37Group H is Spain, Uruguay, Saudi Arabia and Cape Verde. If Marcelo Bielsa survives to lead Uruguay into the tournament, this will be the third nation he'll be taking to the World Cup after Argentina and Chile and seeing his side in action against Spain will be especially interesting. Anything else about Group H that you want to throw in? the only group with two world champions in Spain and Uruguay. Also, the Bielsa situation is quite toxic in his own words. And with the players, besides that, all this toxic relationship that goes on between Bielsa and his players, they do have a good generation.

42:18It's not as good as the Luis Suarez and Cavani generation, but they have players like Federico Valverde, who obviously Spain spoke a lot about after this draw. Rodrigo Bentancur, De Arrascaeta, Facundo Buanoite is one of their wingers. They have Ronaldo Araújo, Darwin Nunes. So it is a good side, but it's just been very disrupted with the whole Bielsa situation and players not getting along with him. I mean, no World Cup is complete without a sighting of Herve Renard's white shirt. So we will see that he's back in charge of Saudi Arabia. so Group H fans can enjoy that. Group I, we've mentioned before, Luxembourg, France, Senegal, Norway and then one of Bolivia, Iraq or Suriname.

43:04Group J is the group of A very much with world champions Argentina, Rafa Rangnick's Austria, Algeria and also Jordan. Assuming Argentina win that group, by the way, and Portugal win Group K, which is Portugal, Colombia, Uzbekistan and then one over Jamaica or New Caledonia or DR Congo, then Argentina and Portugal would be on a path to meet in the quarterfinals. Woof! When we finally get to decide who is the greater player, Messi or Ronaldo. Fantastic. Before that, James, the Argentinian media, because it is what they called un grupo amable, a lovely group, a group that is, you know, very likely, very likable.

43:49They were actually focusing already in the opponents they may face in the knockout stage, which will be probably Uruguay, because it's either Spain, but we imagine Spain will top their group. Lionel Scaloni gave an interview about the level of opposition, and he said that they learned a big lesson in the last World Cup when they lost to Saudi Arabia in the first match in the group stage. And on being favorites, he said he doesn't see much of a difference compared to the last World Cup. I mean, Argentina, they cruised through the qualifiers. They're facing Spain now in March. It will give us a good idea.

44:26And on their match against Argelia, just curious because their coach, Vladimir Petkovic, and Scaloni, they get along really well. They're very close. He managed Scaloni in Lazio. So it's a nice matchup. And for those who are thinking, and I'm not saying one of them, when could Argentina meet Brazil? they could meet in the semifinals if they both top their groups or if they both finish second. If one of them is second, they can only meet in the final. So there you go. All right. We're seeing matchups like that. One of the delights of any World Cup. But this World Cup in particular throws up a whole bunch of other treats in our direction.

45:11And they are the presence of some of the most unlikely sides to qualify for football's greatest tournament. your Uzbekistans, your Cape Verdes, your Kuraçaos. And to tell us a little bit more about those sites and any other delights that we might not be too clued up on, we're joined now by Lee Wingate of the Masters of this kind of thing, the sweeper. Lee, thank you so much for being with us. Delighted. Lee, rich pickings, I think, for the sweeper at this World Cup. Yeah, I mean, absolutely. There's sort of two categories of debutants, I would say. On the one hand, you've got the island nations that have heavily honed in on their diaspora, so Cape Verde and Curacao.

45:51And then on the other hand, you've got the Asian nations for whom this has been sort of a long time coming. Uzbekistan, Jordan, who haven't gone down the naturalization route like a lot of other Asian countries, but instead have been building towards this slowly. So I think we're really interested to see all of them. And in addition to that, Haiti as well, because of the situation going on in the ground, on the ground there in Port-au-Prince, where it's basically gangs running 80 to 90 percent of the capital. The coach has never even been to the island. They've had a real tough time getting here.

46:24They haven't been able to play at home since 2021 and now they're playing against Brazil. So there's a lot to look forward to if you're a fan of the underdog. That's astonishing. Who are you most excited to be seeing? I think Curaçao. I think the smallest country ever to reach the World Cup. It's so small in terms of surface area that I think it's 10 times smaller than the previous smallest country to ever qualify, which was Trinidad and Tobago. And I think the interesting thing about Curaçao is the Dutch connection, obviously, as a former Dutch colony, and now it's a constituent country within the Kingdom of the Netherlands.

47:00So it's a very rare example at the World Cup of a country that's not actually fully independent. And they have really honed in on the Dutch diaspora because in the squad, I think there is only one player who was actually born on the island of Curacao and that is Tahit Chong of Sheffield United. The rest of the players were all born in the Netherlands. So I think that it's going to be very interesting to see what some people are terming a Netherlands B team at the World Cup. Managed by Dick Avica. Of course, they're in a group with Germany, Ecuador and Ivory Coast. So it's a tough ask for a nation of around about 185 ,000 people, which is equivalent to Elk Grove, producer Charlie offers.

47:48Elk Grove being the 26th biggest city in California. Imagine if they'd qualify for the World Cup. That's the kind of thing we're talking about here. All right, Lee, who else should people be rooting for? And who do you think of the nations you mentioned is likeliest to make a dent? Well, I think Cape Verde is a really interesting one. They have only seven full-time staff at their National Federation and they are spread across the likes of Cape Verde itself, Portugal, Angola, and they have looked for the diaspora as well. They've recruited heavily also from, weirdly, a Cape Verdean sort of pocket in the Netherlands where seven of the players were born in Rotterdam.

48:27They've got a big, such a big actually diaspora in Massachusetts that Cape Verdean is one of the ethnicity choices in the Massachusetts census. So they've really also gone down the diaspora route. And I think one of the most interesting stories there is the recruitment via LinkedIn of their centre-back, Pico Lopez, who plays for Shamrock Rovers. He has a Cape Verdean father. And around about 2019, under the former coach, Rui Aguas, he received a DM on LinkedIn in Portuguese, which essentially said, Hey, would you be interested in playing for the Cape Verdean national team? We've got a really nice group of lads here.

49:06It's a nice vibe. but Pico didn't speak Portuguese at the time simply dismissed it as spam and then it was only around nine or ten months later when the coach tried again in English this time and said have you thought about my proposal that he then decided okay I should probably have put the previous message through Google Translate and then saw that um saw that it was a an international call up and now he's going to the World Cup with with Cape Verde so I think they're a really interesting one to watch out for. But in terms of the team that's likeliest to go through, I would say I give Uzbekistan the best chance based on the draw because they've got obviously Cristiano Ronaldo's Portugal.

49:45That's going to be a tough ask. Colombia, I think a lot will come down to how they get on against Colombia. But then you look at the playoff opponent, it's going to be either DR Congo, Jamaica or New Caledonia. And I think that Uzbekistan could perhaps squeak through. Now we see these World Cups where up to three teams can go through. If they could get one win, that could be enough. And looking at the other groups, you know, you've got Cape Verde against Spain, you've got Jordan against Argentina, you've got Curaçao against Germany. If I had to pick one of those, then I would say probably Uzbekistan have the best chance.

50:19Okay, not exactly minnows, 36 million the population of Uzbekistan, but it's an Italian Fabio Canvaro who'll be on the bench for them as things stand at the World Cup 2026. I'm currently thinking about all the spam emails that I've deleted that could have been invitations to play at the World Cup. I'm sure you are too, listener. Crikey. Lee, that's magnificent. And we can follow your... Are you going to be doing a lot of special content in the build-up to the World Cup? Certainly will, yeah. Already done special episodes about Cape Verde and Curacao. So if those stories sound interesting, then look for the Sweeper podcast.

50:53Okay. And New Caledonia, who you mentioned, producer Charlie offers that there are more parrots than footballers in New Caledonia. Equally, Suriname, who could make it through from the other FIFA World Cup qualifying playoff, they're against Bolivia and Iraq. There are more waterfalls than footballers in Suriname. Yeah, on the topic of Suriname, their qualification was, or their attempt to qualify was particularly interesting because in the last round of CONCACAF qualifying, they were 3-0 down. I think it was against Guatemala and they really needed to win that game to qualify automatically. And they ended up scoring a goal in stoppage time at the end of the game to make it 3-1.

51:34It was an own goal. It wasn't even celebrated. I don't think they really realised the implications of that goal. But that goal alone was enough to take them to the playoffs. So an own goal that they didn't know was even important has now kept them in contention to become what I think would be the lowest ranked country on the FIFA rankings to ever get to the World Cup. I think they're 123rd at the moment. And it was all kind of because of this own goal. Extraordinary. If they make it through, they're in that group eye with France, Senegal and Norway. Lee, that's brilliant. Look forward to speaking to you again soon.

52:08And best of luck in the meantime. Thanks very much, James.

52:15Lee Wingate. Natalie. Yeah, on Uzbekistan, Colombia. Colombia, very much reliant on their star players, with Luis Diaz scored seven goals in the qualifiers, only Messi scored more. And James Rodriguez, yes, he's still there, 34. Actually, the captain, he's in Mexico now, he's playing for León. If you ask the fans from the clubs he played in the last few years, they'll say that they're not very happy with James Rodriguez. But when he goes to the national team, he smashes it. So it's an interesting case, to say the least, to Colombia and in this case, Uzbekistan as well. OK. Colombia, Uzbekistan, Portugal in Group A, along with one of Jamaica, New Caledonia and DR Congo.

53:01Excellent. Well, it's been a voyage into World Cup discovery, hasn't it, Natalie? Has the draw, has this podcast even changed in any way your expectations of what's going to go down over six, seven weeks next summer? I think I'm a bit more excited I was very excited but also fearful I think I'm more excited than fearful now Hooray! And what about you Duncan? Yeah I'd go along with Natalie I think it just felt a bit amorphous before this huge event in 2026 whereas now you can just see all the little details emerging and the stuff that Lee was saying there all the kind of interesting minutiae that we'll learn to love and the players that this time next year will be household names that we simply don't know right now.

53:49And that is kind of the magic of the World Cup, really. And for all the issues that may be affecting football that maybe we saw a glimpse of in the draw yesterday, there is still a sort of purity and magic to the World Cup that I think is undestroyable. And I think we're feeling small elements of that right now. so yeah that's good We all feel a bit touched by the purity and the magic this morning on Totally Extra Many many thanks to you Duncan and to you Natalie Both names that will be featuring in Totally Football's massive plans for the World Cup which includes covering all the football all the time We'll have more details as they emerge but they're big Rest assured of that listener So look forward to your company as we sail through this tournament but there's loads of football to go before all of that tomorrow evening, Sunday night Matt Davis-Adams will be back with the latest Premier League action on the Totally Football Show and then Monday I'll be hosting our Euro Roundup Many thanks for being with us today to Meher, to Paul to Lee, Duncan Natalie, producers Jesse and Charlie and you listener for now from all of us here, it's goodbye

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