Magical Morocco - Destination Special

0:05Hello and welcome to a very special edition of the Travel Diaries podcast. Today we are travelling to a place that so many of my guests have spoken about with real passion A country that seems to cast a long-lasting spell It is of course Morocco Today's destination special is a love letter to a country Through the voices of those who've experienced it at its most magical In the first half I'll be sharing a series of reflections and memories From some of the brilliant guests who've joined me on the podcast over the years all describing the moments that made Morocco unforgettable for them, whether it was the colours of Marrakesh, the silence of the Sahara, or the scent of a tagine cooking in the Atlas Mountains.

0:51Each person captured something personal and unique, and it felt only right to bring them together like a tapestry to celebrate just how rich and varied Morocco can be. And it's clear they're not the only ones feeling this way. UK visitors to Morocco are up by more than 40 % in the past year alone, with adventure and touring holidays seeing an almost 100 % surge. And it's no surprise Morocco offers that rare combination, a short flight from home but a total shift of pace, immersive, sensory and unforgettable. And then in the second half of the episode I'm really pleased to be joined by Paula Hardy.

1:31Paula is a brilliant travel writer and a Morocco expert who splits her time living between the UK and Morocco. She takes us beyond the usual hotspots with insider tips that span the entire country, from the Mediterranean feel of Tangier and Tetouan in the north to remote desert oases near Skoura, coastal towns like Asila and hidden mountain villages. We explore Morocco's deep traditions, its crafts, cuisine and culture, as well as its exciting evolution with new high-speed trains, striking new architecture and preparations underway to co-host the 2030 World Cup. So whether you've been once, many times, or it's been on your bucket list for years, this episode will hopefully show you a Morocco you may not yet know and remind you why so many travellers return again and again.

2:20Few people have travelled the world like actor and presenter Sir Michael Palin, and yet when asked about his all-time favourite journey, he chose Morocco.

2:35The desert is such a spectacular sort of background to everything. The desert conditions everything. You know when you... I mean, travelling through Morocco was one of those wonderful journeys I've done, right from Tangier, which is very sort of European, and then to Fez, a beautiful old city, but very sort of closed. People are all behind doors, and life goes on behind closed doors. Then to Marrakesh, becoming rather more commercial. And then people don't normally go on south of that. But to go south of that, then you really are in the desert. I remember just realising that we were no more hotels.

3:18You're in tents and the wind blows at night. You're going to wake up in the morning with sand about an inch in your tent. Even the bread you buy will have been baked outside. It will have bits of grit in it. So there's a feeling immediately you are possessed by the desert. Everything is sort of, the context is this great, big, very vulnerable expanse. There's nowhere really to hide there when the wind blows and all that.

3:45Let's head now to Marrakesh, a city of artisans of colour and contrast. First, we'll hear from designer Anya Highmarsh, followed by Lynne Hughes, the editor-in-chief of Wanderlust magazine.

4:01Well, the earliest memory I have of travel was actually being in Marrakesh with my parents. I was probably about, I think, five or six. I remember how intoxicating it was and just the sound of the birds and those incredible blue skies and the bright orange fruits and all these oranges were in baskets. You'd buy sort of a basket of oranges, like a closed container made of baskets. These are things that just felt very foreign. All the oranges had leaves on them, I remember well. and it just felt different and exciting actually and scary at the same time and that's a memory that goes deep and I think is my parents traveled a lot and always took us with them so it was a a nice early memory.

4:40I love the fact in Marrakesh that you can there's so many trades you know you can find people who can work metal or can work ceramics or you know can actually do amazing embroidery or do incredible block printing you know they can weave baskets I mean there's so much you can do so it's quite exciting in the sense you can have an idea and put it into action literally within the in the medina you know there's so many people so that's really exciting um for me i think it's more about a place that i go away to have a break to clear my head with and i think there's something about that you know that intoxicating mix of the call to prayer and as we say there's blue skies and the sound of birds is breathtaking it's really it's deafening actually um and so it's just a place that i just it gives me it's I suppose the closest place to the UK that feels properly foreign, almost biblical.

5:24And that's very exciting. When you go there, where do you stay? Is there a particular spot that you like to visit? In Marrakesh itself, I normally stay in Elfen. And then we tend to head out quite quickly to sort of foothills of the Atlas Mountains. There's a place called the Kasbar Beldi, which is just very, very simple. It's really like lots of little farm buildings, actually. and it's on the edge of the barrage the dam there so there's a sort of dammed lake so there's a sort of sense of seaside I think a lot of the Marrakeshis go out there for the weekend there's some really fun restaurants that feel almost a bit like sort of sank on sank and they're incredibly chic and right on the sort of slightly drying out barrage lake but it's really cool actually cool and dusty and fun and very simple so everything sort of appeals to me but I love it we always ask them to put on the hammam so the night they arrive we have a wonderful hammam scrubbed within an inch of our lives and then sort of hot hot tagine by the fire where we read our books it's really relaxing and then go on big hikes the next day so it's just a really lovely place it's more of a garden

6:34I don't know the city that seems to have I don't know been pulled back to a lot again and again or I seem to perhaps almost end up back in somehow by accident is Marrakesh. I think it's one of those places you'd find hard to get tired of. It's actually where I met my partner as well. I came on a wanderlust trip. It's always exciting to be back in Marrakesh and perhaps walk, you know, through the suits to the main square, Jevril Fanar. And as you get closer, you know, the anticipation rising and you can hear the drums, you know, as you get closer, where you get all the kind of street performers in the square.

7:13You get that rise in energy and to go and, you know, perhaps go to the rooftop of one of the cafes around the square or something. And as the sun goes down and you get the food vendors with all the, you know, the smoke comes up from their fires where they're cooking with food. And you've got the street performers and you've got this hubbub of, you know, life below you. And that still always gives me a thrill. Yeah, absolutely.

7:44Many use Marrakesh as a launch pad to nature. In less than an hour, you're in the cool, dusty foothills of the Atlas Mountains. The Atlas Mountains are one of Morocco's most majestic features, a land of Berber villages and snow-topped peaks. And it's a place beloved by some of the most intrepid of our guests, Richard Branson, TV chefs, the Hairy Bikers, and presenter and blind adventurer, Amma Latif.

8:13I mean up in the Atlas Mountains outside Morocco, outside Marrakesh, it's just so beautiful up there. Mount Tubkal is a lovely mountain to climb, which we did last year, second Africa. And we just happen to have a little place called the Kasper Tamadot, which is run by the Berber community. The Berber community are just gentle, gentle, wonderful people. and I've been there six times in the last 12 months so I really love it. One of the favourite properties I've ever been to. You've been there? Yes, I was there in November and I had the most magical time and as you say, the staff there are just so wonderful.

9:04If there was one that you would say that you really should do in your lifetime is there a particularly iconic route that you would suggest to add to someone's biking bucket list? I'm thinking through the Atlas Mountains. Yeah, that's the other one. You can get off the ferry in Tangier, and two days later, you've got your front wheel in the Sahara Desert. Yeah. And you've been up through the snow, and then you end up in the Sahara having a cold beer. So that contrast in kind of one journey. Yeah. Yeah, you work your way up. I always remember out to Tangiers, Marrakesh, and you can smell all the tagines, you know, cooking on people's walls.

9:44And then so you eat, then you're in the snow, so you're cold. But then when you start to drop down to Wazazet, towards the Sahara, the whole world just opens up before you. You know, it's like coming down from an aeroplane.

9:59For example, in Morocco, in the Atlas Mountains, where the Berbers live, you know, time has stood still. they're going uh to the local markets on donkeys you know and you're walking through these mountainous villages and the local people they're so lovely they don't have much but when they're baking their bread on their stoves outside they see me with my groups walking past and they're like uh you know they communicate to us and they they give us bread and we're having this amazing moment with them and it's so peaceful and it's so wonderful time stood still you're seeing people making clay pots like they have been doing for centuries these are the kind of places that are so special you hear the call to prayer oh god the call to prayer um you know and you've got lots of little mosques in different places and you know it's kind of got that haunting sound um it's just so amazing I absolutely love it finally let's descend through the mountains to the golden gateway of Wazazat this cinematic frontier town is known as the door to the desert let's hear from travel and leisure magazine editor Jackie Gifford about her experience staying there as an editor has there been a particular feature written by one of your contributors that made you fall in love with a destination that you hadn't been to and then made you decide to book a trip to go there oh good question yeah I mean that happens pretty regularly for me I find that I'll read a story and just go oh my gosh like I need to go I would say this happened years ago but a longtime contributor to travel and user Maria Shalembarger had written a story about Morocco and some of the desert camps there.

11:56And I then promptly booked a trip to go to Morocco within the next, I'd say like, you know, nine to 10 months, a year. I just started a travel leisure. And I remember reading Maria's piece and just being like, you know, Morocco has always been on my list. I need to see it. And I went with my husband. We stayed in Marrakesh. We went to a beautiful hotel outside the city, outside in that, you know, in near Warsazat called Dar Ahlam, which is a relay chateau property where the owner who's now, you know, quite, he's created some really interesting concepts, including a roving hotel around the world.

12:39Oh, yeah. His name is Thierry. Yeah. So Thierry had created this other, I believe it's called 700 ,000 Hours, but this roving hotel, but he's, he's one of his first projects was Darulam and they'll create these dinner setups for you in the middle of, you know, in the middle of the desert in the middle of nowhere. And every night when you stay there, breakfast, lunch, and dinner is always in a different location. And it's just like a, it's like theater. And it was so interesting because the hotel is just in the middle of nowhere, frankly. And we drove to get there and through a snowstorm. And it was through a pass in the Atlas Mountains.

13:18And when we got to the hotel, it was just so special. And I think that was a good example of just dreaming about a place and saving up for it, saving up for the trip because it wasn't inexpensive and deciding to go. And I was completely, and I wasn't, at that time, I wasn't the editor-in-chief of Travel Major, but I read a story and felt like I had to go and take action on it. The power of great travel journalism. Yeah.

13:48And that brings us to part two of this special episode. Coming up next, I'm joined by travel writer and Morocco expert Paula Hardy, who spent over 15 years unraveling the stories of Morocco. And she's here to share her ultimate Moroccan travel diaries. Now, don't forget that all the recommendations made by Paula and our previous guests are all included in the episode show notes. as you're going to want to remember a lot of these gems.

14:18Paula, welcome to The Travel Diaries. It is so lovely to see you. How are you? I'm great, thanks. Thanks for having me. Oh, my pleasure. I'm really looking forward to talking all things Morocco with you. I couldn't think of a better guest to fill us in on everything that the country has to offer. And it really is having a moment right now, isn't it, Morocco? I mean, the UK arrivals are up massively, adventure holidays are booming. What do you think is really behind this, you know, renewed fascination with Morocco? I don't know. I've been asked this question a lot. And I think one of the key things is that Morocco seems to me to naturally meet the moment in the current world we're living in.

15:05not just as a travel destination, but also in life in a way. And by that, I mean that Morocco is a place that feels unfiltered. It feels very real. And I think it is a place where people really connect with other people. And I think that's very natural in Morocco. That happens very naturally. People nowadays, they are looking for kind of connection. They're looking for adventure. But I really feel like it's this kind of connection with other people when they travel that really sort of makes Morocco quite special. And I guess also there are easy flight routes, certainly from the UK. The flight is pretty short, about three and a half hours or so, isn't it typically yeah I mean to Marrakesh absolutely I mean if you fly to Tangier it's barely three hours and if you go further south yes to Marrakesh it's three and a half hours so yeah it's really close but it's one of those destinations where you can fly three hours but you really do feel like you're experiencing a different culture it's not like you know Britain non-sea you're getting a really different immersive cultural experience and I guess that must be another reason why travelers are falling in love with Morocco because they can just really feel like they're being transported somewhere very different absolutely I mean I think you're you're really right and also like if you let's say you fly to Tangier or you fly to Marrakesh or you fly to Agadir even in themselves those places are very different from each other um yeah you know climatically uh sort of what they look like um even the sort of vibe of the cities or the regions so yeah I think absolutely it's somewhere you can go sort of you know dozens of times and be completely transported to another world that's very different from Europe and the UK you know a lot of travelers I think will have been to Marrakesh a lot of people listening to my podcast will have been there but what would you recommend as the first destination in Morocco for um a traveler to visit beyond Marrakesh on their like second trip oh that's a tough one I mean I I would probably say go north because for the contrast I think that would help people understand the scale of diversity in the country.

17:43So Marrakesh is very kind of earthen and red, red colors is that kind of desert heat, you know, it feels like a desert place. Whereas let's say if you flew to Tangier, or even Rabat is a bit further south, the capital city, it feels more Mediterranean. It's very green around there. The medinas are whitewashed. They're not earthen. The sea is a huge influence on the food and the kind of literally the air, you know, you have this kind of balmy Mediterranean climate. So I think that would be a great second place Tangier because it does give this kind of real contrast. But again, it's still very Moroccan I mean it feels closer to Europe in the it has a Mediterranean feel but it's still very Moroccan in terms of the markets you go to the things that you're buying the the souks um with all the stuff in the you know the shops the jewelry the textiles everything and I just think that would be a nice kind of balance to see that um yeah compared with Marrakesh it's great to hear you talk about Tangier because I've not been but I'm really dying to go because of a hotel that I'm desperate to review there Villa Mabruca I'm sure I knew you were going to say that oh my gosh I've seen it on Instagram I've read about it it looks like a complete oasis have you been yes yes and I mean it's stunning I mean you know it is one of the most beautiful sort of villas and gardens I mean, the garden is such a huge part of it as well.

19:32And of course, it's extremely kind of elegant and beautiful. Jasper Conran, the owner, you know, he has a very sort of elegant touch. And it's in a fantastic location. It's right at the top of town in the Casbah. So, you know, you just have kind of 180 degree C views. And then sort of below you when you're on the roof terrace is just this magnificent garden. like full of bougainvillea and acanthus and palm trees and I mean yeah it's it's completely dreamy so definitely go. I think it defies the perhaps preconception of a vision of Morocco as a whole because it's so lush and verdant. Yeah I think this is really it would be a huge surprise because I mean you know one of the misconceptions I think about Morocco is that it is a desert country, that it is, you know, North Africa.

20:30And when people think North Africa, they think the Sahara, they think desert, you know, and that kind of vision. And then I think it's really kind of quite a dramatic surprise when you kind of fly into Tangier. I mean, you can see from the plane how green everything is, and then you land. And yeah, it's a completely sort of, you know, bosky Mediterranean climate with pine Aleppo pine trees and rosemary and like you know even the smells and of the sort of machia and things like that are completely different to the south. If you went to Tangiers there's certainly enough in Tangier to just base yourself in Tangier and spend four days there sort of exploring the medina doing like maybe one or two museums and then maybe going to the Siddi Kachem beach, which is about a half hour drive west of Tangier.

21:29So that would fill four days very easily. But if you did want to explore further afield, you can easily go to, there's a small sort of Medina sort of fortified coastal town called Asila, which is about an hours drive away and I don't know if you're familiar with Esawira which is close to Marrakesh it's a similar sort of place in that it's a kind of totally enclosed coastal fortified town but there's like there's almost no one there I mean and you know there are there are some tourists there but it's really very quiet and peaceful and I mean so that's a fantastic day trip or you could go east of Tangier to Tetouan, which is a, it's one of the best preserved medinas in Morocco.

22:25And it's, it's very, it's a kind of intellectual city that has a well-renowned university there. It also has the equivalent of a kind of arts academy there. A lot of Morocco's kind of master craftsman train there. And it's very authentic. Again, it's not particularly on the tourist radar at the moment. And so that is a very kind of, it's completely real, that Medina. Like, I mean, if you want to get anything made, people can make it for you in an instant. I mean, the Medina there is fantastic and you can spend hours there. No one really pays much mind to you it the food it has a slight spanish flavor because of the kind of spanish influence there in the past um i'm quite addicted to they have these bocadillo sandwiches that are just like oh my god they're so delicious um so yeah so i think that's that's a that's a different sort of that's also a different experience yeah those are brilliant recommendations like hidden gem destinations like you say in the sense that they're not on the typical tourist trail no no and I don't know if you know but um the Royal Mansour which is Morocco's flagship hotel brand um and uh that has opened their most recent recent property is uh 20 minutes from Tetouan um on the on the sea on it's a beachside property and honestly it's one of the most beautiful properties, hotels I've ever seen in my life.

24:07It's fantastic. Yes. And it's a wellness focus there, right? Yes. I mean, they, it's a sort of, you know, beach resort, but their wellness center is spectacular. I mean, you could spend a whole week just in the wellness center, you know, where they've kind of, it's a modern wellness center, but they really sort of brought to bear that kind of Moroccan tradition of the hammam and the kind of bathhouse culture that Morocco has. And they've sort of set it within this modern context with a lot of also contemporary wellness treatments. But I feel that it really also engenders that Moroccan wellness tradition that is centered in the hammam.

24:56Oh, it's somewhere I'd love to visit. It's on my hotel wish list as well. I mean, we've talked about two very high-end, high-price point properties there. Are there any places in the north that are at a more accessible kind of rate that you have really liked to visit in the past? Yes, I mean, Inner Sela is a beautiful, place called Dara Ambrosia. It's a house. It's very well priced for a, you can sleep 12 people there, but, or less. I mean, you rent the whole house, but that's 400 euros a night, but for, you can sleep up to 12 people. Tangier has a huge range of property and it's not necessarily that, you know quality or atmosphere is dependent on price point I mean you there's a very beautiful property in Tangier called Mimi Calpe it's a little bit like a sort of country house hotel strangely it's not in the Medina it's just beside the Medina so like 10 minutes sort of walk but you know it's in a garden that I mean that's super quaint and that's probably around you know 160 euros a night for a room or maybe 120 depending on season you know there are dozens of kind of very quaint bijou riads in the medinas so i think actually morocco has that's the real strength of morocco that there is really a good range of price points as well and the standards are really very good yeah yeah absolutely you mentioned the season um obviously you know when you think about Marrakesh that you think it's pretty hot like nearly all the time but if you're going slightly in the if you're going further north are there is a what would you say is a kind of optimal time to to visit well I think actually May early May June is very nice month particularly I mean if you want to swim in the sea early in the year the sea can be I mean the weather is lovely in April onwards but the sea might still be a bit fresh so let's say if you wanted to go and you're interested in hiking in the Rift Mountains or along the coast, April would be a fantastic time to go.

27:20It's also when the gardens are very beautiful. Then I think if you also want to do a bit of swimming and enjoy the sea a bit more, then going sort of mid-May to June is a beautiful time because the sea's warmed up then. And again, you know, September, October would be very nice months as well. But then having said that, I mean, I've just come back from Tangier and it's mid-July and the weather was sort of fantastic there. It was like 25 degrees. It was quite breezy. It was very comfortable. Like we didn't use air con at night or anything. We didn't need it. So I also, it's not necessarily that it's so hot in summer.

28:06Again, it really depends where you are in the country. Yeah I guess then contrasting to that if you wanted to go to Morocco to have a desert experience where would you recommend for that? Well there are different deserty experiences so if you wanted to Morocco is quite famous for these two long river valleys They're essentially dry river valleys. One is called the Dra and one is called the Dardes. And so you kind of can journey down them and it's kind of palm trees, oases, whatever. And then you get to the desert proper at a small town. They're a small town. One is called Mhamid. Another one's called Erfud.

28:54And from there, you can launch off into the desert proper. and that would be sort of camps beside, you know, those kind of picture book dunes. You'd be staying in a Bedouin sort of tent, so a large tent, not a little camping tent. You know, it would be laid with carpets and you'd have a mattress. So it's a fairly comfortable camping experience. Those are the sort of points where you would launch off into the desert And you can do things like a camel trek or you could do a four-wheel drive trek. And it could be a multi-day trip across the desert and across this place called Iriki, which is a dry lake.

29:36And then you could come back round to a town called Taradant. It's similar to Marrakesh, but it's sort of a more desert town. But it is the sort of mud brick town. So you can do a nice sort of journey across the desert to Taradant and end up in another kind of earthen medina where you can sort of end your trip in quite a nice hotel. Oh, that sounds like a great recommendation. Did that correlate to where Jackie Gifford mentioned? Is that anywhere near Wazizat? Yes, Jackie Gifford mentioned Dar Ahlam, where I strangely I was just at Dar Ahlam last week. And yeah, yeah. And it is one of the most amazing places in the country, no doubt about it.

30:25It's this incredible sort of mud brick casper, which is basically a castle, a Moroccan castle with sort of four towers. and it's in an oasis called Skura which is about 30 minutes north of Wazazat which is the main sort of juncture to go to the desert so for example there are Ryanair flights to Wazazat once a week I think so you can fly directly there and so so yes so Skura is like about 30 minutes north of Wazizat and Skura is this magical kind of date palm oasis. Strangely it's at quite a high altitude, 1 ,200 meters. So it has a good, it has lots of water. So that makes it very lush and green.

31:18So when you're in Skura it's, you know, the top canopy is the palms. Then underneath you have almond trees, fig trees, apricot trees, pomegranates, you know, and you sort of all the paths in the oasis are sort of just mud tracks. So you can sort of cycle around the oasis, you know, in early summer, it's sort of ridiculous, like sort of fruit dropping off the trees that you could literally pick up and eat. Like sometimes you just think, am I dreaming? And then Dar Ahlam is sort of sits in the middle of this incredible palm grove. And yes, I think, you know, Jackie Gifford may have explained it's this sort of extraordinary hotel run by a man called Cherry Thessier, who has a very interesting idea of tourism.

32:10He is much more focused on regenerative tourism on how tourism how Dar Ahlam can work with and benefit the local community but in a really meaningful and integrated way. And is that a good kind of launch pad also to then have your kind of typical touristy kind of desert experiences as well? Yes I think what you would do is you if you might fly into Wazazar or drive to Wazazar from Marrakesh, then you might spend like three days in Skura. And then you would launch off down the river valley and heading to the desert. And even around Skura, there are sort of more desert areas because the oases tend to be in valleys.

33:01And then all around you is this incredible sort of like moon. It's like the surface of the moon landscape so you know you can have a sort of various desert experiences around Skoura but if you really want the dune fields you have to go further south because you know not all the desert is the nice pointy dunes yeah yeah so so what was it that made you first fall in love with Morocco how much time do you spend there each year now uh and what was yeah what was the first kind of place that captures your heart? I probably spend half my time in Morocco and I have done for quite a while now. I first came to Morocco as a child.

33:49One of my best friends is Moroccan from when we were 11 years old. She's now a filmmaker in Morocco. So this was the, you know, the first connection and I used to go there for holidays at her house um you know near it's a place called Cabo Negro near Tetouan and um that continued that love of it and I suppose I mean really the impactful memory that I have of of Morocco is when I was we were probably around 20 she was making a film there she was at film school so we were filming there in the Medina of Tetouan we're sitting in this cafe, just a local cafe. I remember the wall was sort of painted half blue, half white.

34:34So the kind of light in the room had this strange sort of bluesy aura. It was quite cold. And there was a elderly gentleman sitting there in a bannousse, which is a heavy woolen coat with a pointy hood, which he had up. And, you know, we had mint teas, which you could smell. and I was sort of looking out the window, this quite ornate grill, and you could see the local Amazigh ladies in the marketplace selling kind of piles of herbs and vegetables. And they wear these sort of amazing straw hats with these colorful pom-poms on them. And it was just so, I don't know, it's like that scene is imprinted on my memory.

35:19It was so cinematic and it was just so sensory the whole thing and you know I just thought you know Morocco is an extraordinary place and it's full of of scenes and moments like that and I just think that's it's kind of makes life an adventure every day because you just see these extraordinary things all the time and and I think that the that's that's quite rare in the modern world. Totally and obviously that was a little while ago would would you say that you would still you'd still see those kind of similar scenes now I mean has have things changed that much uh things have changed but I think not that much uh there has been over the last 10 to 20 years there has been a long process of I'd say fairly well managed development in terms of for example in Marrakech Medina many of the shops didn't have electricity before and you know there were issues and about I think five years ago the Marrakech Medina was restored but it wasn't like I mean I think what's interesting about Morocco's development is that it's not this kind of tearing down of the old and and replacing it with something big and shiny and new, I feel like there is a real sense of a real understanding of the value of that past and that heritage and a desire to preserve it in conjunction with building sort of new things.

37:05For example, the new amazing theatre in Rabat that was built by Zaha Hadid. So that was built in a new place by the river and there's going to be a big park around it. So and I am quite impressed with how Morocco has been undertaking the kind of development and restoration. And you do. So you still if you go anywhere outside the cities and even in the cities, you still have these moments that are very extraordinary. Like the Amazigh ladies still come to the market in Tangier. They come from the Rift Mountains. They live a very rural life there. They make this delicious jibbon cheese, which is a kind of soft goat's cheese.

37:47They bring it to the market along with all their herbs and vegetables. They sell them in the market. They wear these amazing clothes. They still wear the hats with the pom-poms on them and very colorful skirts and things like that. And yes, that's who they are and that's what the community is. And so that's still there. And then like you mentioned kind of the juxtaposition then with you know modernity as well I mean the country's going to be hosting the World Cup coming up which is exciting and I imagine there's a lot of development involved in relation to that and I also remind me about there's a train route like a high speed train route that I remember reading about that was also a massive kind of huge deal.

38:35Yes, yes. So the high-speed train, it currently goes from Tangier. The high-speed train is called Al-Barak. And it goes from Tangier to Casablanca currently. So it also serves Rabat, the capital, and then it goes on to Casablanca. And in the next couple of years, extensions will be made to Fez, which is the sort of intellectual and cultural capital of Morocco. It was a historic capital. And then it will also go south to Esauira and Marrakesh. So, before the World Cup. Wow. So, a high-speed rail will go all the way through, basically. That's amazing. It has made an extraordinary difference. So, for example, in the past, if you went from Casablanca to Tangier, it might be five hour train journey.

39:29Now it's a two hour train journey. That's incredible. So that's so exciting because it really means that people who are visiting for the World Cup or around that time are going to also be able to see so much of the country in one go, which just is so liberating for a traveler to actually feel that they have to do internal flights. Where actually is the World Cup being held? it's being hosted jointly with Spain and Portugal but there will be matches in multiple Moroccan cities so there will be matches in Marrakesh, Tangier, Fez, Rabat and Casablanca and they're building the most extraordinary stadiums I just like a couple of weeks ago I received the video from the Moroccan tourist board about the stadiums and they're amazing pieces of architecture so they've been designed to sort of again fit with the character of the different cities so for example the one in marrakesh is like a moroccan palace wow with i mean it's yeah the one in the one in casablanca which will be the biggest football stadium in the world i believe is looks like a tent so it's got this incredible mesh sort of roof it's going to have kind of suspended gardens.

40:48I mean, it looks incredible. That sounds out of this world. I mean, you'd never think that that kind of effort would go into the design of football stadiums, typically. How exciting to see how they'll transpire. Yeah, yeah. So, I mean, I think it will be very exciting. And it is really interesting, I think, this use of kind of architecture to express cultural values for people who, you know, come to Morocco, and maybe they don't know very much about the country, but, you know, then immediately, even in the football stadium, you will be just aware or absorbing. Yeah, and connected. You know, connected to sort of something about Morocco.

41:28Yeah, that's absolutely fantastic. How brilliant. I can't wait to see what they look like when they're done or maybe I'll go. Who knows? Yes, I know. I mean, I'm thinking the same myself, even though I'm not necessarily a huge football fan. but yeah like you said it'd be an amazing cultural experience in itself yeah so what would you say is your all-time favorite destination in Morocco having seen so much of the country obviously I spend a huge amount of time in Marrakesh and have done over the years uh just because Marrakesh is Marrakesh and I think you know Lynn was right uh you know the editor of Wanderlust about this magnetic quality of Marrakesh and and it really does it really is magnetic Marrakesh um so I think it is a city that you go back to time and again you never get bored of it it can be you know annoying or whatever but I feel like it's just part of its energy uh you know and and you've got a role with it um and that's sort of what's fun I mean I think even Anya Hindmarsh said that this kind of like you know sort of exciting edgy quality of it um so of course uh you know i have a very soft spot for marrakesh uh where else i mean i have to say that um scura is a is an absolute hidden gem and um and is a lovely it's such a beautiful place i mean i do love that Oh, you've really sold me on it, I have to say.

43:02And there's one other place that I do love that's really kind of, I don't know why it's not really sort of better known. It's called Ualidia, and it is a lagoon. It's about an hour or maybe hour and a half's drive from Marrakesh, north of Esawira. And it's a lagoon environment, so full of migrating birds. You know, flamingos also come to nest there. and it's just like a magical little world because it has a microclimate it's very cool and breezy there uh obviously the lagoon is is protected by the the barrier like on a sand you know it's a natural lagoon so the water is very placid and you know it has this quite vintage feel to it Waledia it's just a place with lots of little fishing boats people go and do their fishing there are like birds everywhere there aren't really many hotels there there's a little sort of I think a surf camp for children surf land because people go there to learn to surf but it's just got this really strange it's to me it sort of almost feels like it's a from the 1950s and there's a lovely hotel called La Sultana they have a sister property there and even the hotel has this kind of slightly cool vintage vibe to it.

44:28So, you know, but there's so much, you know, you ask me this question and then I think, oh, but I just went to a music festival in Fez and that was fantastic. So it is really, really hard to choose. Well, those are some great picks. What a lovely sounding place. Do you have an all-time favourite hotel in the country, would you say? Or one that you recommend to people time and again? I mean, as sort of one of my favorite places in Marrakesh is Riyadh Mina. It's in the south of the Medina. It's a sort of archetypal Riyadh. A Riyadh means an internal garden in a house. So, and it has this beautiful big garden and it's just has a very kind of tranquil atmosphere.

45:20all the people there are lovely um you really get the contrast when you come from the craziness of the medina into the house where it's just like relaxation bird song it's so cool in that so i do love riyad mina uh where else berber lodge another one just outside marrakesh it's kind of very sweet country retreat lots of nice vegetable meals and royal mansour tamuda bay i just have to say that's one of the most spectacular places i've ever been i mean even if you just go for lunch it's worth it because of the craftsmanship so for example the the foyer is is sort of designed with all these seashells that they collected from the property when they were doing the building work so it's so it's decorated in I think it's like 90 ,000 seashells.

46:14Oh my goodness. So I mean that is just a work of art and I think the people who designed a company called Musa Lab but they seem to really kind of understand like integrate it with Morocco's Roman history. There's lots of mosaic there. There's the there's the Moroccan elements there and so that is spectacular. But do you see what I mean? Then I'm like yeah and then you just go down the rabbit hole and then there are lots of kind of cute little riads like there's another small place called l 'atelier in marrakesh that's um that's a very reasonably priced riad it's beautiful it's run by a young couple but that's also the fun of it is that you can go and you stay somewhere and it's a completely different you know experience like different design different house like there's a designer called L-R-N-C-E, Laurence and she's a, she opened a Riyadh called Riyadh Rosemary and that is kind of all her designs, like the entire Riyadh is, I mean she's a sort of designer of carpet, ceramics this, that, but the whole Riyadh is almost like a creation of hers, so that's an interesting place.

47:27Oh wow, that sounds incredible. Yeah, so I, yeah. So many good recommendations, Paula. So many good ones. I'll obviously include all of these recommendations everyone in the destination recap in the episode show notes for today. As you're talking about Laurence and the kind of craftsmanship and things you know a lot of people go to Morocco to buy things don't they? To bring things back to their homes because it's so beautiful. obviously you can kind of get taken down a bit of a rabbit hole and perhaps you know like like you can in all kind of medinas and markets get get ripped off in some places what would you say are the kind of items that if you're traveling to morocco that are really worth you know worth purchasing there as opposed to kind of getting swept up in it all interesting question i mean Moroccan crafts are great all of them but you're right in this in the suits there's difference in quality I think the first thing to understand if you are buying things is that you know these are crafts and if you're looking for the top end of crafts they are going to cost more than than sort of cheaper models let's say so I think some of that is you know I think maybe there might be an expectation that people think oh because it's morocco that everything should be really cheap so i think you you know the awareness of the work that goes into that craftsmanship is important i mean certainly like morocco has a i mean carpets are great but obviously you know a carpet is an expensive item and that you know particularly if it's hand woven someone spent maybe a year or three years making this carpet.

49:14So I think the important thing is to, if you're buying a big ticket item like a carpet, there are many cooperatives that represent the women who make the carpets. I mean, obviously, the further you get away from the maker, the more expensive the item is going to be. So I think the key is to try and find sort of shops or organizations where you are as close to the makers as possible because then you're paying a good value price for it, but you're not paying for a lot of add-ons of middlemen who've brought it to a shop in the Medina, if you see what I mean. So there's an interesting cooperative in Fez called Anu, and they are basically a female carpet weaving cooperative.

50:07You know, buying a carpet from Anu is a great thing to do. They make them, they sell them. There's a very short distance between maker and market there. In Marrakesh, there are also companies like there's a shop called Tribalista, where you can actually have a carpet made entirely to your specifications, and they will work with you. And again, they are very closely connected with the makers. so I think that's the key to understand that yes if you're shopping in the main street of the Marrakesh Medina like which is the most expensive real estate in the Medina that's a bit like shopping on Sloan Street in London so you're going to be paying top dollar for everything you see in every shop on that street if you explore a little further into the further north in the Medina into those fundux which are these little sort of workshop areas you'll probably find similar items much less expensive yeah well thank you so much paula for sharing so many fantastic gems and insider tips with us it's been fascinating chatting to you i always like to ask my my guests um like the fight the final question is you know the destination that's at the top of their travel bucket list I know you've seen virtually every corner of Morocco but is there somewhere that you've yet to tick off or that you're dying to return to uh yes I do have something on my there's always something Morocco is endlessly interesting there's a company I sort of know called Inclusive Morocco and they told me about this and it's a journey uh it's called the memory road and you start in Skura but you travel south into the far south but to very unique places that are quite remote and one of them is a village called Tiskmudin which is sort of built on a rocky outcrop and the village was the old village was abandoned for a long time because you know difficulties with water and living there anyway there's a there's been a sort of regeneration sort of project there Thierry from Darahlam has supported them and and kind of given them support to to make this project go they've restored sort of three or four houses in Tiskmudin and they're sort of simply furnished and decorated you know but with everything you need for a comfortable night seat there's no electricity in the village it's all candlelight um and so so you go there and then you maybe you go to another village in a in another little valley with some almond trees and so it's an eight-day journey but it's really down in the far south of the country to these very small um really unknown sort of places and that is absolutely top of my bucket list i would love to do that.

53:19That sounds incredible. I hope that you get there soon and we can all follow along. Thank you so much Paula for your time. It's been so lovely to chat to you. Thanks so much Holly.

53:34Oh well a huge thank you to Paula for taking us deeper into the magic of Morocco and to all the guests whose memories brought the country to life so beautifully throughout this episode. If today's episode has sparked some wanderlust. I'd love to hear where you're dreaming of going to next. Just tag me on Instagram or send me a message. I'm at Holly Rubenstein. I'd of course love to hear from you. If you enjoyed today's episode, remember you've got over 160 others in the back catalogue to discover wherever you get your podcasts. All the destinations that are mentioned by my guests are always included in the episode show notes here on your podcast app and on my website, thetraveldiariespodcast.com.

54:13Right, that's it for today. Wishing you all safe travels. Until next time. Thanks, guys.