Unpacked: China, Uzbekistan, Baku, Six Senses & more with travel editor, John O'Ceallaigh

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1:39John O'Ceallaigh: Hello and welcome to our very first episode of the Travel Diaries Unpacked, your weekend travel fix. I'm your host Holly Rubenstein and today I'm joined by the fabulous John O 'Kelly. John is a legendary travel journalist and consultant to many hospitality brands and he is taking us from China to Azerbaijan to Uzbekistan and much more. Don't forget to hit follow or subscribe on your podcast app of choice to make sure you never miss an episode. It's completely free and it means you're treated to a double dose of Wanderlust each week. Okay, let's get started.

2:23John O'Ceallaigh: John welcome to unpacked thank you for having me here it's so great to be chatting with you

2:28Nisha: in person right by your garden literally dripping aren't we we are transport we might as well be in

2:34John O'Ceallaigh: the desert frankly but we're going to be chatting about quite a lot of exciting things today so we'll reflect on Nisha's episode in particular China of course and a recent say of mine in

2:45Nisha: london your recent trip to azerbaijan baku that's right yeah and uh a listener q a as well so just

2:53John O'Ceallaigh: a reminder if you want to send in your own questions for us to answer that is the travel diaries podcast at gmail.com the travel diaries podcast at gmail.com don't forget the the part yes part of it yeah or dm me on instagram or john what's your instagram luxury travel editor

3:11Nisha: luxury underscore travel underscore editor also on tiktok yes very important

3:16John O'Ceallaigh: okay don't say nisha katona i love this episode isn't she like such a passionate

3:22Nisha: speaker it was so nice to hear her talking about a place that i feel not many people have actually mentioned so far on your podcast despite how important and incredible it actually is i'm an advocate for the destinations you know and recommend everybody go there one of the most exciting places to visit in the world without question irrespective of what you're interested in

3:42John O'Ceallaigh: it's interesting because like five years or so went by and it wasn't really mentioned i don't think at all on the podcast from my from my guests and then ben fogel said it was at the top of his bucket list and then of course he made a program for channel five about it so he's great when

3:58Nisha: someone else pays for your trip isn't it but actually i think one of the impediments people mentioning it previously is that entering the country was quite difficult for brits especially from a visa perspective and recently they've alleviated a lot of those restrictions so now you can just rock up with your british passport irish passport the one i have and have a 30 day holiday no strings attached so it's the perfect time to consider a trip right so it makes such

4:20John O'Ceallaigh: a difference just in terms of ease the bureaucracy doesn't exist in nearly the same way anymore so that's okay let's actually just have a listen to her clip one of them is i want to do a food tour of China I really I told you about the place that had such an impression on me and that was China in terms of food yeah um and in times of in terms of culture and all of that and that is something I feel I really mean this you know when I came back on that plane and I felt there is maybe I was a child I was in the past life because I felt such a connection to it yeah so she wants to go back and do this foodie tour of China so so John as someone who's traveled extensively around China Where would be a good starting point, do you think?

5:03Nisha: I feel people can be reassured that wherever they choose to go, they will have incredible dining experiences. You know, my background as an Irish person, we go to the pub to socialize. In China, you eat. And you eat extensively and you're passionate and avidly obsessed about where you go. There's a huge emphasis on having healthy, fresh food as well. The quality of the produce, even in major metropolises like Shanghai, is incredible. and it is astoundingly affordable as well. I like even going to supermarkets there. I remember being in one recently. They just have huge vats of live fish that you pick up directly when you go to the equivalent of Sainsbury's because the importance that they place and everything being as absolutely fresh as possible is without compromise.

5:47Nisha: It's something that is essential all the time. I would say, and I'd like to speak about the destination a bit more generally, there is a province called Yunnan, which is one of the most magnificently beautiful destinations I have ever experienced and the emphasis that's placed on fresh produce there and the quality of the food you have is off the scale.

6:05John O'Ceallaigh: So where's Yunnan?

6:08Nisha: Yunnan is on the western side it's southwest it's a very clement if that's a word climate where it tends to be quite pleasant or pleasant. I went in November last year for 10 days approximately it's home to a number of what they call the ancient cities which have a really high dense concentration of incredibly beautiful ornate ancient architecture it's also home to Shangri-La the actual Shangri-La so to give you a little bit of context Shangri-La was first mentioned as a fictional paradise in the book from the 1930s then we all know Shangri-La hotels and they adopted the name because it just alluded to the idea that you had reached paradise more generally and then the astute marketers that they are people in China decided that there was a town in China that was quite like the fictional Shangri-La so they changed the name the actual name to Shangri-La in order to entice tourists and it worked on me so I really it's like I'm a new nun I want to go to Shangri-La so I went to Shangri-La I've experienced Shangri-La I've seen the doors of Shangri-La open it's also home to one of the most majestically incredible ornate monasteries I've ever encountered anywhere in the world so it has buddhas inside that are stories high it's on a plateau overlooking a valley a lot a lot of chinese people who go there love getting dressed in traditional attire so you're surrounded by people who appear to have emerged from the 15th century it's just completely surreal and incredibly beautiful you're not allowed to take pictures inside which made everything such an unexpected revelation i hadn't seen the interiors until i physically found myself there and the degree of decoration and intricate embellishment was astounding.

7:43Nisha: So the monastery just outside Shangri-La, I won't attempt to say the name, but if you Google it, you'll find it straight away, is one of the most profoundly impressive religious sites I have ever encountered in my life.

7:53John O'Ceallaigh: And you have traveled the world, I should say, extremely extensively. So that's saying something.

7:59Nisha: It really blew me away. And I'm lucky to have seen so many reference points. But it had the same sense of awe and wonder that I found when I first wandered into St. Peter's Basilica and the Vatican for example that type of scale and grandeur so absolutely amazing and what's really wonderful about China as well is these surprises reveal themselves continually because we collectively here in Europe are quite ignorant about intricacies of the destination so you go to Beijing Shanghai but there is it's an immense immense massive country that has developed over millennia and has so many distinct aspects to its culture and history so you are constantly bombarded with stimulation and new experiences and what's great as well it's so cheap you can actually afford to do everything that you might want to encounter so it's so accessible in that respect as well

8:44John O'Ceallaigh: but for a western traveler who doesn't speak chinese does that make it really challenging

8:49Nisha: definitely yeah i don't want to pretend it's easy it's so disorientating as well when you really can't read or feel like you can't even pronounce a single thing you encounter i did feel bit adrift constantly now we're collectively quite lucky that technology facilitates easy digital translation i would suggest or actually it's essential that you get an e-sim before you go when you can access your site there's a lot of tech there that's inaccessible to us so they don't use the apps that we would use in europe and you need what they call wechat and alipay which are two of the apps that are like the foundational basis for every commercial transaction that you do in China so there are um technical elements that are difficult to navigate it's not like ahead of have it already all downloaded all properly registered it's like we pay with our touch and tap on our phones all the time here yeah they have their uh domestic equivalents there that you need to make sure you have nobody uses cash I went to a 7-eleven and paid so I bought a coke or something with the equivalent of a five pound note and the young 19 year old who took it from me had literally never seen paper cash before she was picking it up holding it to the light and then a geriatric geriatric mandolinial like me an equivalent came over and showed her how to get coins out the till so she could give my change back to me which is pretty remarkable it is so futuristic what they're doing there it's just next level i have been mountain climbing in china which in itself with a country of 1.4 billion is a process they had capped access to the mountain so it's called the yellow mountain it's a unesco world heritage site very beautiful they capped access to 3 000 people and i think i was with 2999 other people because the queue to elevate slowly up the mountain was complete the entire day long but the natural splendor of the country is really something that not many people are prepared for there's just so much

10:40John O'Ceallaigh: diversity again it's just so enormous i mean it's such a new frontier for for us like as a

10:45Nisha: generalization i feel it's like a continent essentially in terms of diversity offers and again to go back to the fact that 1.4 billion people lived there it means the different expressions of cultural identity that you encounter from north to south east to west west are so varied and so unexpected on occasion as well i thought it was so nice also how she

11:02John O'Ceallaigh: talked about how lovely the chinese people were with her her little one her little baby that she was traveling with and how they they came and picked her baby up in the restaurants and that sense of warmth because you always want to hear that your experience of the locals is one that is you know a sense of connectedness a sense of heart heartwarming and because there's often a language barrier between us and and the Chinese because we don't typically speak Chinese yeah I thought that was a really nice touch that she included that I found people surprisingly

11:35Nisha: even in major cities like Beijing or Shanghai where there are tens of million people milling around in a rubbish you know we won't necessarily say london is the friendliest city i found people to be extremely friendly universally and it's interesting because it hasn't really been imprinted with international tourism to a huge degree as yet outside of those major urban centers when i went to more remote areas i am often an object of fascination in a way that i'm not always entirely comfortable with but you get people staring at you out of curiosity or milling up

12:06John O'Ceallaigh: Your pale blue eyes. I do.

12:09Nisha: You know, that's a novelty over there, right? I do have people that kind of wander over to me tentatively and ask through a translator or just try true miming for a picture and so on, which is really weird. But it's so well-intentioned and they are really delighted to see you and engage with you. You will definitely struggle to be understood in terms of speaking English. But actually, there's something quite, I'm going to say, romantic about the fact that it's harking back to a more simple era of travel when we didn't really know everything that we were going to do and it still felt like an adventure and everything's fine I used discoveries I think what's important to say in relation to that as well it's super safe so even if you aren't sure what's going on you don't feel ill at ease I've had experiences in say Johannesburg where you're a little bit unsure of what's surrounding you and there's a tentative danger that's associated with that yeah I've never had that sensation in China yeah oh that's great and I

12:57John O'Ceallaigh: guess before we wrap up on China then kind of going back to Nisha's top of her bucket list doing this kind of a foodie tour where would you say she should go from your experience if like

13:07Nisha: she was doing a kind of multi-destination approach I would possibly consider Chengdu the level of spice that you encounter in the cuisine there is explosive but also as a destination it's really curious because it's the panda capital of China I am not joking when I say every few meters you will see panda paraphernalia whether it's the phone case a young teenage girl has the beanie hat a guy is wearing some type of poster that's stuck on the bus they are obsessed with pandas so i'm just kind of wedging in an excuse for you to go to chengdu but also the food there is really really good i

13:44John O'Ceallaigh: do you know i i saw on that ben vogel program about when he went to the panda bear sanctuary and that they all all the staff their dress in panda outfits have you seen that they are the most pampered

13:55Nisha: animals on the planet they are revered and they're so adorable as well so obviously just being in the proximity of them is something that people rhapsodize over yeah it's what we're incorporating

14:05John O'Ceallaigh: in the trip oh my goodness i mean i feel like we could literally do a china destination special just sitting here you could do a full series for weeks and weeks and weeks okay so i want to mention my hotel of the week a bit closer to home um but still very much in the world of escapism and that is six senses london much anticipated hotel opening have you

14:27Nisha: been i am going to go but you've beat me to it so i'm curious to hear about it what what's your what's your expectation i think it's been really interesting to look at six senses transition from being a resort only based brand to now trying to infiltrate city center settings i'm curious to see how it adapts but i think it reflects the fact that travelers of all ilks who are rich you know it's obviously an expensive brand to say but want a wellness proposition within the property irrespective of where they are and additionally modern life is quite stressful right so I think the Sixth Sense's brand is quite successful in giving you the sense that you should be completely relaxed when you enter there so I see it's been quite appealing what did you think?

15:03John O'Ceallaigh: I really loved it actually I had heard different reviews but for me I found it in terms of the first impression of it to be very kind of sleek and sexy I thought that so just to provide a little bit of context um six senses is in bayswater which if you don't know london is quite near to notting hill it's kind of adjacent to notting hill and it's inside the restored whiteley building which was a very iconic uh historic department store which then was left unused for a period of time and now it's been completely reimagined as the whiteley with six senses at the heart of it with some other kind of properties and restaurants and stuff inside it and they've really kept that um architecture and design the scale is very impressive yeah the scale is really impressive there are these beautiful sweeping staircases when you walk in i loved that when you walked in there are these two big eucalyptus trees inside that i think they're like 80 foot and they go all the way from the basement where the spa is all the way up to the top so it's a very dramatic um yes kind of sensual um entry i would say and it reminded me aesthetically i would say of um soho house the soho house properties that same kind of furnishings tiles and so on i definitely think it could have been a soho house but that aligns quite nicely with my kind of taste anyway and I thought it was really lovely how in the kind of communal spaces downstairs people who weren't staying so if you're in the area and want to check it out you know there's a beautiful bakery there's a really lovely breakfast spot you can go for a drink in the bar there so you can pop in and get an experience of it you

16:55Nisha: know it's interesting you mentioned about Soho House because it's also hoping excuse me home to something called Six Senses Place. Did you encounter this? No. So it's a new members club concept from Six Senses. This sounds very advertorial because I'm just interrupting you to tell you something else that you can do there. But it's a wellness centered members club, contrary to something like Soho House, which was based on revelry and having drunken nights out and getting up to all shenanigans, which I think really speaks again of this transition between what young consumers want to do now versus what maybe we did or I did when I was younger.

17:29Nisha: and that shift is really quite interesting to monitor as well yes right so i i didn't know

17:35John O'Ceallaigh: that that's what it was called but the wellness offering there that as you say can also be experienced not as somebody staying there but perhaps as a local um was absolutely exceptional so they have um hyperbaric chambers they have resident doctors they have iv drips they have consultations then they have an extensive spa um and one thing that was really cool was they have all of these different recovery rooms and after i included in my stay i was reviewing it um i had a facial which was um very pleasant but then afterwards i went into this recovery room where

18:12Nisha: they had these sound healing beds that sounds nice where you wear headphones and you select

18:19John O'Ceallaigh: the kind of level of relaxation or stress level that you may be experiencing and you press a button and you're listening to music but in time with the music the seat vibrates in like a million different places in time to the music to shift your body's whole nervous system into a different

18:37Nisha: state wow this sounds embryonic or something yeah it was really interesting and I'd never

18:42John O'Ceallaigh: tried anything like it um but that was a really really cool experience and I think that the the property will be complete once its pool is opened i think it launched without the pool being there and as as a spa hotel i think that that was missing um so i look forward to going back when that subterranean pool i know it's been so anticipated yeah is that one of the major openings of the year and the bedrooms i really liked i thought they were really really lovely really beautiful really luxurious reflective of the price point i would say um and yeah i would recommend it so i look forward to hearing what you think i'll be there today's episode is brought to you in partnership with airbnb as you guys all know i spend a lot of time traveling and we've listed our home on airbnb in the past while we've been away one particularly memorable time was when we set off on a seven-week road trip across the us we lived in central london at the time and our flat would otherwise have been sitting empty for all that time so we listed it on airbnb during the trip.

19:43John O'Ceallaigh: That journey became even more special because it was also when my husband and I decided to get married on a beach in Santa Barbara and we used some of the extra money from hosting on Airbnb to help pay for some really personal touches for the wedding like the flowers from the market that morning and a local photographer who we booked last minute. So in a small but very real way hosting became part of one of the most memorable trips of our lives. It wasn't about becoming a full-time host it was simply a practical way to make use of our home while we weren't there. If you have a trip coming up, it might be worth exploring whether listing your space on Airbnb could work for you too.

20:17John O'Ceallaigh: Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at airbnb.co.uk forward slash host. Thank you to Airbnb.

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22:02John O'Ceallaigh: And where have you come back from recently?

22:03Nisha: So I'm now based in Dubai, as you know, and one of the things I'm benefiting from is that I have this whole new ecosystem of short haul destinations that are close to me that I can just pop over to a few days.

22:14John O'Ceallaigh: I'm so envious of that.

22:14Nisha: I kind of, yeah, I did so much in Europe. I needed a different environment to mess around in. And I am just back from Baku, actually, in Azerbaijan.

22:24John O'Ceallaigh: So what brought you there?

22:25Nisha: A desire to go to places I knew nothing about.

22:28John O'Ceallaigh: Just like random places? Right, yeah.

22:29Nisha: It really hasn't had much investment in its international marketing, which was nice. I think it's quite refreshing to go to a city where you don't feel obliged to go to the Louvre and see the Mona Lisa or whatever else it might be. And you can discover it at will. What I found really interesting about it was the indicators of prosperity. So it's very affordable to visit now. I think that's always important to consider in our cost of living crisis times. But it was the first oil town in the world. So in the 1800s, I had this period of incredible investment, lucrative winnings for people locally.

23:04Nisha: The architecture that you see around you is very beautiful as a result. And even though it's inland, it's on the borders of the Caspian Sea. So it essentially feels like you're looking out at the ocean when you walk along the promenades. It was impeccable. I don't know if I've ever been to a more pristine city, which again, wasn't something that I necessarily anticipated.

23:24John O'Ceallaigh: Interesting.

23:24Nisha: Yeah, very civilized, very sophisticated, beautiful old town, very experimental architecture, modern architecture in place that was Dubai-esque.

23:32John O'Ceallaigh: Yes, is it like juxtaposed with like very modern with more historic?

23:36Nisha: Yeah, there's very hackneyed travel writer terms I could use here, right, about like melding old and new, but actually it does do that quite well. I stayed in the Fairmont Hotel, which is in one of the, in inverted commas, iconic buildings called the Flame Towers, which are shaped like flickering flames. And that's like these, yeah, very bizarre and interesting and beautiful, incredible views of the city. Mediocre F &B, so I would caution you to maybe try other restaurants. But, you know, the views are astounding. And then looking over the waterfront, the city beneath you, which is golden in color and just feels very quietly glamorous and sophisticated and inviting.

24:13Nisha: It's a lovely discovery.

24:14John O'Ceallaigh: That's so cool. So would you say it'd be like a good kind of long weekend destination?

24:19Nisha: Brilliant long weekend destination. And actually, even though you can constantly discover new things, a long weekend is enough to feel like you've ticked off all the boxes. So great as it was, I don't feel compelled to go back anytime soon. It's a good place to see.

24:32John O'Ceallaigh: So what would you what would be like a perfect day in Baku, would you say?

24:36Nisha: Again, recognizing there's very little pressure to do specific things. I like ambling and see where I end up. So along the waterfront, you'll have a lot of beautiful little coffee shops, beautiful parks, great ice cream counters, things like that. That was a very pleasant amble. It does eventually lead up to a cultural center that was designed by Zaha Hadid. And even though I typically find her work really overrated, I thought this specific cultural institution was fantastic. The scale was phenomenal. And they just had such a bizarrely eclectic range of art to explore within it very affordably.

25:08Nisha: And that was a lovely discovery as well. They had some really sinister display of Russian dolls up on the top floor, which unsettled me. But then they had great modern art elsewhere. and they had the Colombian painter, I think his name is Botero, you know, the very voluptuous women down below. So, yeah, really constantly delivering very nice discoveries in a very relaxed atmosphere. Great food as well.

25:32John O'Ceallaigh: Yeah, I was going to say, what's the kind of food like?

25:33Nisha: Stodge, delicious stodge with lots of cheese and bread. Yeah, it's quite like Georgian cuisine, if you happen to be familiar with that.

25:41John O'Ceallaigh: Yeah, yeah. Oh, brilliant. And how about getting to Baku from, if you're not based in the Middle East,

25:47Nisha: well Holly this is research I haven't done so I cannot tell you but let's have a look I went via

25:54John O'Ceallaigh: Dubai and it's about a three-hour flight okay so I've just looked it up we can fly non-stop London Gatwick Azerbaijan Airlines five hours 30 that is a long weekend you could do that yeah yeah yeah three nights I think you're good yeah currently if you want to go in July that's the past as we are now in august it's 544 pounds round trip as a bajan airline so yeah you can

26:19Nisha: do a direct flight from the uk that's interesting highly recommended okay one to add to our list

26:24John O'Ceallaigh: guys and finally then let's wrap up with a listener question thank you so much for your replies on instagram again if you want to ask us a question you can email or direct message us on

26:35Nisha: Instagram okay this is Katie in Suffolk John hi Katie and she says I'm desperate to go somewhere

26:43John O'Ceallaigh: a bit different next year but I don't want it to feel too difficult or overwhelming where would you recommend for someone who wants more of an adventure but still wants that bit of comfort

26:54Nisha: I would recommend that Katie I'm just reflecting on many places I've been but in terms of that specific brief one of the most rewarding destinations I have ever visited is Uzbekistan and it really feels like now is the time to go because I think it is going to explode in popularity in a few years they're very actively investing in improving their tourism infrastructure for example they are expanding their high-speed rail network the national airline has put a contract in place to acquire a number of new aircraft with the desire to rapidly increase the destinations that it serves. So that will be really great in terms of utility and access, but it does mean loads more people are going to be clamoring around with you to see the best sites.

27:39Nisha: Uzbekistan is astoundingly civilized in terms of how it has been a fulcrum for intellectual development. So it used to be a center for global trade, and you had a mishmash of global cultures congregating there and they've all embedded their influence throughout the country in different ways what i would say about azbekistan is it is remarkably beautiful in the cities which have been endowed with centuries of incredible architectural heritage and beauty very sparse and arid and dull in the countryside so you do have long drives through tundra or really plain landscapes but then you get to this jewel so there are specific places that i would recommend visiting to Katie and anyone else.

28:20Nisha: So Hiva is a town in the north, which is described as one of the world's most extensive open-air museums because the congregation you have in the old town of minarets, mosques, mausoleums, museums is so extensive. And when I was there in late February, early March, I was one of the very few tourists walking around at that time of year. So when you're in this ancient citadel, essentially by yourself, it really feels like you've time traveled it's so special to have that experience you know solitary

28:51John O'Ceallaigh: just for you and you said like you use the term jewel box and i feel as though if you picture uzbekistan and the architecture in the buildings they are like jewel boxes the colors the richness

29:04Nisha: of the colors you have these really deep gleaming turquoises and goals and just treaded details the intricacy and the embellishments and how fambluyant it is in places it's just so intoxicating and rich so you're so visually stimulated wherever you go when you're in the main tourist centers the other essential place to visit when you're in Uzbekistan is Samarkand and that was an ancient capital it's home to Registan Square which I think a lot of people would have seen previously so if you google it like it should immediately be apparent to you but for me it's one of the jewels again of human civilization in terms of there are certain places in the world you go where you think humanity is pretty amazing right you know the fact that stuff like this exists in the world is such a privilege for all of us.

29:46Nisha: For me, it was akin to the first time I saw the Taj Mahal when I walked to Registan Square and just being completely stultified by how incredibly grand and meticulously developed it was and how robust it was. You know, centuries later, it's still standing there in complete grandeur. So it's this collection of plazas and minarets again and beautiful historic structures that have so much visual impact, the taste that people had to create them at that time. They're just timelessly beautiful. So again, I was there same time of year, probably 20 other people around in the evening when it's beautifully illuminated.

30:21Nisha: It was just so, so, so special to be there. And I stayed in a pretty posh by local standards hotel nearby that was probably$80 a night or something like that. So the other thing that's important for Katy is that while aspects of its tourism infrastructure may not be developed to the same degree we're familiar with in some popular tourist destinations in places that are now completely overrun by tourists, you can have a lot of comfort there in terms of hiring guides hiring private drivers things like

30:47John O'Ceallaigh: that are very accessible in terms of pricing so yeah and that then kind of gives you if you're slightly trepidatious a bit of comfort knowing that say if you have a driver taking you between these big destinations that there's somebody kind of like alongside you showing the way i would enjoy

31:05Nisha: using the high-speed train between the destinations because it's some interaction with locals it's extremely comfortable but when you're in samarkand itself or heva or wherever else it is you can have a driver at your disposal all day long for an incredibly reasonable rate and that person can additionally be your guide because it's so impenetrable a lot of the culture it's so deep and long-standing that if you don't have an expert beside you you're going to miss out on so much but for katie's usage what i think is important is that comfort also equates to having the best possible time and not feeling like you have to break the bank to do it really enhances your entire experience right so what i mean is when you're in paris or new york getting a great guy it could be 400 euro for the day yeah not many people can afford to do that in addition to everything else in uzbekistan you can really fully embrace everything that's on offer because you can go to the best restaurant you can stay in a beautiful hotel you can speak to an expert guide you know a price that's reasonable for him and for you so i just cannot recommend it enough and now is katie katie i'm speaking to you directly now is the time to go leaning in yes now is the time

32:04John O'Ceallaigh: to go before there are going to be a lot more people standing i just can't believe it's not

32:07Nisha: more comfortable not more popular already because it's popular on the podcast oh is that right yeah

32:12John O'Ceallaigh: joanna lumley prude leith they uh john simpson all-time favorite destinations i'd say well joanna and john i trust their recommendations i tell you prude's got prude is an intrepid traveler john she had just she had just come back from she had come back from tajikistan

32:31Nisha: what's your reticence about well you might want to cut it but i believe she's a brexit voter so i can't really view her as being an internationally open-minded person but i have no idea about john and john but i'm going to take their recommendations more seriously right yeah well her son is an mp who is very pro pro brexit okay right that all makes sense i'm disregarding her talk i'm making it very apparent how i voted in that referendum uh i have not been to uzbekistan but i literally

32:59John O'Ceallaigh: have my jaw on the floor every single time I listen to people wax lyrical about it and again in terms of transport so you were flying from Dubai but where how easy is it to get to would

33:11Nisha: you say I feel how again I'm sorry I didn't research exactly what it's like to travel from the UK I said Holly's got her phone out now to fact check in real time not sponsored by

33:22John O'Ceallaigh: sky scanner um would like to be um so london to uzbekistan you can fly direct really um from london to tashkent roughly seven hours on uzbekistan airways and you can do lots of stopover connecting flights in istanbul doha um or on etihad oh nice so yeah so um and it's about five hours ahead of the UK if you wanted to know in terms of the time difference.

33:54Nisha: You know even if it was slightly inconvenient to get there there's certain places where the journey is so worth it and for me it was just going back to the genuine joy of travel which you reference so often in your podcast as well you know the sense of discovery and it's difficult to really be in an environment that feels completely new you know we've got so much exposure to everything yeah I don't want it to be too easy to get there right because you have to have that anticipation.

34:16John O'Ceallaigh: Well that's like what people say about the Greek islands isn't it that if there's a direct flight there it's not going to be the same thing.

34:20Nisha: the place right and actually this goes back to exactly what i was saying uzbekistan is going to change for better or worse because they are actively looking to significantly build their tourism infrastructure and when more people discover it it's going to be overrun so definitely

34:33John O'Ceallaigh: now so we've really i think maximized on hidden gems this episode i have loved that is there anywhere left on your bucket list that kind of fits into that category yes georgia i'll be

34:47Nisha: traveling to in August. Kazakhstan is on the list and Pakistan I am very keen to visit as well.

34:53John O'Ceallaigh: That's so interesting. So both Pakistan and Kazakhstan came up in last season on season 16 of the podcast.

35:02Nisha: I'm suddenly feeling quite predictable. I thought I was being original. No.

35:05John O'Ceallaigh: Were you not in Kazakhstan?

35:08Nisha: No, Uzbekistan, Azerbaijan. I'm working my way. Were you messaging about Kazakhstan? I was planning to do it but unfortunately it didn't work out at the time so it remains on the list and I definitely will be going so um Kazakhstan

35:18John O'Ceallaigh: obviously has come to the fore with race across the world last season because they they traveled through Kazakhstan um but it oh no I was talking about it with the race across the world winning guys did they love it yeah I mean I think there's like you mentioned with Uzbekistan I think there's like indefinite nothingness for a long time but that the culture the hospitality of the people is is wonderful and it's you know an experience like no other in fact they really sold me on kyrgyzstan as well that they said that was the most beautiful place in the world really and when you look at the mountain landscape i can see why it really looks incredible um and like riding on horseback through the kyrgyzstan mountains but yeah kazakhstan was um niall rogers and eve as in

36:06Nisha: who's that girl your recollection is extremely impressive oh hi i'm listening during my interviews i know as someone who just has a terrible short-term and long-term memory that i just

36:16John O'Ceallaigh: commend you well i think it imprinted in my mind because i didn't expect them to say it and they were saying how beautiful it is it's interesting though because i think it speaks

36:24Nisha: to the fact we're looking to go to increasingly distinct locations that are a bit unpredictable and maybe that's part of the privilege of having traveled so much right that we're seeking out these new frontiers.

36:37John O'Ceallaigh: John, thank you so much. John O 'Kelly, what a pleasure. Travel expert extraordinaire, returning guest on the podcast. Yes, thank you. If you haven't listened to John's Enchanted Island episode, I thoroughly recommend it. And join us again soon.

36:51Nisha: Thank you, Holly. I'd love to.

36:56John O'Ceallaigh: Oh, well, a huge thank you to John O 'Kelly. So much travel inspiration there. Really enjoyed that one. lots of places that weren't on my radar. Remember, all the destinations mentioned are included in the episode show notes and on thetraveldiariespodcast.com. Remember, you can get in touch at thetraveldiariespodcast at gmail.com and on Instagram and TikTok at Holly Rubinstein. I'll leave you to listen to my new unpacked music, my new unpacked theme tune. Let me know what you think. I'm obsessed. All right, guys, I'll be back with another episode on Tuesday. Take care.

37:35Thank you.

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