Unpacked: Japan, Mongolia, Praiano's Casa Angelina, Ladakh & more with travel writer, Luke Abrahams

0:05Hello and welcome to the Travel Diaries Unpacked, your weekly weekend dose of wanderlust. I'm your host Holly Rubenstein and today I am joined by travel writer, author and photographer Luke Abrahams. Now Luke is one of the UK's most prolific travel journalists. He's been to 30 countries this year alone and is always in somewhere far-flung and exciting. And on today's episode, we'll be unpacking Ruthie Rogers' bucket list destination. That was Kyoto, reflecting on my hotel of the week on the Amalfi Coast, chatting about Luke's recent trip to Ladakh in northern India, and answering your listener questions among a lot of other chats.

0:48So without further ado that's Buckle Up and Get Started. Here's Luke.

0:59Luke, welcome to the Travel Diaries Unpacked. Thank you so much. It's great to see you. I'm excited. On a rare moment that you are in the UK. I know. I think you are the most busy travel journalist I know. I would agree with you on that Holly actually. This year's been crazy. I think I've done 24 countries in four months so it's nice trying to be on the ground. Wild. Do you just not get phased by the travelling part? I do. To be honest with you I've had a few breakdowns on BA flights recently and it's not because of the service but it's more to do with the fact that I'm just kind of like I can't do this high altitude life anymore so it's actually quite nice to be down on the ground Feel grounded.

1:44Feel grounded and actually be in London for once and it's nice to actually have a summer. Yeah, actually we were messaging when you were flying from Russia to Mongolia and you were going out of your mind the amount of time you'd be travelling. Sorry darling, I'm flying over Russian airspace. I don't know what's going to happen. It's so funny because I know also one of our mutual friends was calling. It is funny, isn't it, how the world is so huge but also so small. Like you were saying that one of our friends was trying to call you and you were like, darling, I'm in the Congo, but I'll get back to you tomorrow.

2:18Just with some gorillas. Yeah. Sorry. It's amazing that. Being bitten to death by driver ants. By driver ants, really. Yeah, it was quite funny. We were walking through the jungle and then we spotted the gorillas, but none of us realised that we stepped into a driver's ant's nest. So what are driver's ants? Well, they're just larger than life ants, but they've got pincers on them. So when they bite, it's like this fiery sensation. But I had about 40 on me at the same time, especially around my groin area, which wasn't the best place to have them. So whilst you've got like 10 gorillas around you and you've just got everything biting, you just have to keep your calm.

3:04You have to be silent. Because you've got a giant silver back next to you, so you're sort of smiling in agony. So that was quite fun. But thankfully they eat them, but they didn't eat the ones on me, so I was a bit sad. So I just spent 20 minutes scratching, which was a joy. Wow. What an experience. Yeah, it was definitely, I would say, everyone's been asking me this year what's been the most memorable. and I think having the pleasure to go to the Congo, especially as a half South African, it's just sort of like, you know, a lot of safari now is quite Disney and to be able to, it's like going on safari for the first time or discovering a part of Africa for the first time and you actually realise what that must have been like for generations of people to like stumble onto this sort of lost frontier and that's what the Congo was for me.

3:56Something for an intrepid traveler. Definitely. Beyond intrepid. Because there are, like we were saying, in terms of connectedness, but where feels like the final frontier now in travel, I guess, perhaps that there may be some parts of Saudi Arabia, maybe parts of China. Nomatic, yeah. Well, definitely the north of China, Mongolia, the Stans, places like that. they're really I think sort of like the final place yeah North Korea have you been to North Korea? no I'd love to go I feel like you should go I reckon me and good old Kim would get on quite well actually I had Dom Jolly on the podcast who had been and it was you know I mean talk about that kind of social anthropological you know experience to see somewhere like that And so far removed from anything that we know or have seen.

4:58I would be so interested, so interested to go. So we're going to be covering an awful lot today. We're going to be talking about Kyoto, the Amalfi Coast, Northern India, and answering this in the Q &A as well. So we've got lots to cover. But we'll kick off by, as we always do, delving a little bit and unpacking Ruthie Rogers, who was our guest on Tuesday this week. And I thought it would be good to chat a little bit about the destination that was at the top of her travel bucket list. So that was Kyoto. I am dying, and I really, really want to go to a restaurant called the Shim Monsen in Kyoto in Japan.

5:44It is designed by a great architect, Taro Ando. it's in the most beautiful city it's owned by a friend of mine Patrick McKillen, Patty McKillen and he does his hotels with such details, such generosity, such attention to what you will want as a traveler to stay in and I have so many friends who've come back from there saying, Ruthie it's great architecture which you love it's great food which you need and you know the person who created it why haven't you been and I have no answer to that question a destination that is obviously incredibly popular but also not easy to get to from either the UK or the US really uh you know expensive potentially over-touristed so how do you think Kyoto sits as a kind of destination How much should we be prioritizing it for our travels, do you think?

6:45So, I mean, I went to Kyoto during cherry blossom season. So I was writing a piece on the art of hanami, which is cherry blossom viewing, essentially. And it was one of those surreal experiences where you go to a place in Southeast Asia and you actually realize how different it is from everything else that you've seen before. and so Kyoto I mean I hate the phrase bucket list but it's one of those places that I remember the first time I ever heard of Kyoto was lost in translation and that scene with Scarlett Johansson and you know I'm partial to a breakdown here and there so it was like one of those things that you're just sort of going in you feel anew you see it afresh and that's the beauty of it you're experiencing something that's familiar in terms of I think the one thing that blew my mind when I arrived in Kyoto is that it's a bit of a concrete jungle before you actually get to the ancient city.

7:45It's a big city. It's a huge, huge city. And then when I got off the Shinkansen from Tokyo and I was greeted, I was like, where are the temples? And you don't see them when you immediately, when you get off. And you just get into the tourist lane taxi and says, you tourist, you are local and that kind of thing. And then you just jump off into the main city. I think it's definitely one of those places that you have to see, but also one of those places that you have to go to at the right time to see now. And would you go in cherry blossom season now? Probably not again, but the beauty of Japan is that you see it.

8:27So I'm quite sad in the sense where I actually followed a cherry blossom calendar to actually see when it was going to bloom. not sad at all I did the exact same thing when I was doing the full foliage in the US okay fine we can relate but if I were to go again I'd just totally go on off season when it's not anything to do with foliage at all then you can actually enjoy it because there are so many restrictions now there and due to tourists behaving badly that you can't actually see half of the stuff that I I went to when I visited, which was literally when Japan reopened after the pandemic. And they were going into people's properties, taking selfies, kind of like the Instagram craze was going a little bit too crazy.

9:10Yeah. People were dressing up. And obviously, you know, one of the most famous things about Japan is this whole idea of manners and politeness. And all of that was being broken, particularly with regards to, you know, etiquette, basically, and temples. So there are some streets you can't even go on anymore because of. They block them off? Totally block them off now. Interesting, right. So it's sort of like you do the traditional tourist route, but, you know, it gets busy. It's one of those cities that gets busy, but it's worthwhile busy. You know, I was so enthralled by the cherry blossoms, I didn't even notice it half the time.

9:43Really, really, it was that special? So special. I mean, I love flowers personally, so for me I was just sort of like in my element. My friend who was with me was like, can we go? And I was like, no! We haven't seen that tree. Is it March? So it's getting slightly later. I think we were there end of March. And I remember so vividly we were in Okinawa and suddenly it went bang on the cherry blossom calendar. I was like, right, we're going back to Tokyo. So you change your itinerary. Yeah, totally change because we were there a little bit too early. The buds were starting to come out. But I was like, it's not really the same.

10:23and then I saw it and I was like I'm so sorry guys I'm cancelling all my plans in Tokyo off to Kyoto and they were like why it's like uh cherry blossoms obviously and then we got there and we literally did the entire cherry blossom trail in a day even after spending three days there I saw all I saw the first time I saw in a day so that's how hardcore I was about it that is dedication to the cause. Totally. I'm still paying off the loan I had to take for the train.

10:58And do you, I mean, obviously Ruthie is passionate also about design and that's, you know, something that came up a lot on the podcast, of course, with her background. But do you think that Kyoto is one of the kind of great design destinations in the world? Oh yeah, I mean, you go into a coffee shop and it's like a minimal advert haven. You know what I mean? Everything is so pristine from, you know, a cup has been placed in the perfect position. There's been so much thought into it. And I think the beautiful thing about Kyoto is because it's such a mishmash. It's like London. You've got so many different architectural styles there from ancient to brutalist to the sort of like modern minimal.

11:43It's like an inspiration hot pot, you know? and I mean I was taking photos everywhere I was going and the amount of stuff I bought to influence my own architectural design in my own house I mean I had to buy another suitcase that's how much I went for Really? So it's so stylish Yeah, yeah, yeah I think I had half of my suitcase full of chopsticks and then the other half because they were so beautifully designed you were like oh my god I have to have them all And is it expensive? Extremely, yeah. Yeah. I mean, it depends where you go. If you do it cleverly, then, you know, you can do it reasonably.

12:23But I think, you know, when any destination gets extremely popular, they're going to take advantage of it. So they have. And, you know, why not sometimes? But again, it depends what district you stay in. Is there one in particular you'd recommend? For me, I mean, to be honest with you, the old town is where you have to be. Yeah. Especially if you're really wanting to do it without crowds. I mean, I remember I was at the Park Hyatt for the first two days. They had just opened. And it's literally on the Strip, the famous Strip. And if you wake up at 5 a.m., it's as though you have the whole of Kyoto to yourself.

13:07Because I guess are some people coming in for the day and then going out again, almost like cruise ships. Yeah, exactly. So if you are staying in. Yeah, yeah. And that's what it felt like at times. It was like, oh, you know, the princess wopsits got off. You know, it's just like. A tour and then they're out again. So if you can sleep in that area. Then that's the dream. Totally. Okay. That's really interesting. And was that your favorite part of Japan when you were there? For me, I loved Okinawa. I thought Okinawa was so and this is so stupid but the first time I came across Okinawa again another movie was Kill Bill that's where she had her sword made and I was like my god are we going to go and see all of the Kill Bill memorabilia and they were like what?

13:55Am I right in thinking that Okinawa is one of the Blue Zones? Yes, yes, yes so funnily enough I was actually in Okinawa to write another piece on Blue Zones so I was on the main island and I was interviewing all of these fascinating people in villages, all over 100, obviously. And, you know, the secret is, I mean, it's not really a secret. It's just like eat organic and what comes out of the ground and you'll live longer, you know, that type of thing. Well, and also another thing, because Dan Buettner, the founder of the Blue Zones concept, came on the podcast. He was one of my guests. With the Okinawans, isn't it also that they only eat until they're 80 % full?

14:33Yeah, yeah, exactly. The 80 % roll, I think. And Alex, my husband and I, we often talk about that. Like, because, you know, it's such a cultural thing that you eat until you're full. But I think that level of restraint, it's so Japanese. Very, very, very Japanese. And you see that. And it's actually something that I took away. I mean, I wish I could eat up until 80%. I think most of the time it's 130 % with me. I guess with Manjaro or Zenpig, it's like eat up until 30%. I just need to find a dealer. but yeah I think Okinawa is very special and also it has UNESCO listed islands there with you know I love wildlife with certain cats that you can only find in that part of the world I think if I remember rightly one interesting fact that it's only sunny two weeks of the year in Okinawa and I was so lucky to actually get a bit of sun didn't rain and you know when you see it's like subtropical it's like the Hawaii of Japan yes I think that's the best way to describe and a lot of Japanese go there on holidays just to get away from the humdrum of Tokyo or something like that.

15:39It really is, it's quite special because it's so far removed from the rest of Japan and you just sort of go from people in sort of very restrained looks to people in Hawaiian shirts and you're like, hmm. This is where the Japanese let loose a little bit, you know? Yeah. Do you have to fly to get there? Yeah, it's about, where did I, from Osaka, actually. it was about two and a half hour flight oh quite a long way quite a long way but i had the best udon noodles of my life at osaka airport and i just thought about them going on the way so that's epic imagine having the best meal of your life in an airport in an air and this is the thing about how alien for us right so alien all of the best food i had was either from a subway a vending machine or in an airport amazing which was ridiculous that's how high quality food is so so lucky so cool well japan the most mentioned destination on the podcast i mean beloved by so many kyoto i hope that ruthie makes it to the hotel that she mentioned is there anywhere else from your trip in kyoto you'd like to give a shout out to suwaka that was a great little small independent roycan small luxury hotels and you've got two modes of living there you can either go modern or you can go traditional and i went traditional and honestly it was the first place i think i went into japan where i actually felt like it had a sense of place to be honest with you um so i would definitely shout that out if you're going to go there i think indie rules well we move on to our hotel of the week and actually really carrying on with ruthie's uh travel diaries because she is so passionate about italy and mentioned of course on her episode the amalfi coast and rivello and loscolio and i have just got back from the amalfi coast and thanks to your recommendation luke was reviewing casa angelina in praiano and that i have to say was well it was very interesting because i was staying in a pre previously in a very contrasting property uh a very kind of oh it was an old monastery and casa angelina is just the total opposite of that brilliant white bright modern art huge picture windows that frame the stunning views and i think when you arrive when you're on that in that dramatic landscape and you are greeted with that kind of picture, you really feel as though, again, the phrase you don't like, but you really feel as though you're experiencing a bucket list destination, don't you?

18:25I think it's one of those special, I think the beauty of Casa Angelina is it's because it's not an Italian grand dame on that coast. People never, they give it an afterthought. But the minute, as you say, you get into that and you're framed all the way down from Praiano, Positano to Capri, you're like now I understand why this coastline is so magical and I think that's the beauty of that hotel it's kind of like I mean I hate to compare it's kind of like the Amman of the coast in that it's minimal there's a bit of art in there but it allows the scenery to do the talking and you kind of create your own fantasy while you're in there if that makes sense you know there's a sort of your own La Dolce Vita reimagined I suppose that's how I think of it absolutely and to me that is when i arrived there actually it almost felt miami-esque in terms of the aesthetic um and interestingly speaking to anna rita there she actually said the delano in miami was behind some of the inspiration for the decor which was instantly the hotel that i thought of when we arrived in it but one thing that i would say there if you're going to the Amalfi Coast is that wherever you are in the property, you're going to have an amazing view.

19:42Oh, for sure. And you're there on Amalfi Coast primarily for those views. Definitely. You wake up and you see it. I mean, the sunrise from there and the sunset is just, it's insane. Yeah. And all the rooms have these like little, little terraces that you can sit out on. And, and, um, I actually really liked it in the mornings because they weren't in the sun. So you weren't being baked down on. 100 % yeah but you could take in that view and it was lit up in the distance so beautifully I remember I think that lighting one morning I think it was the first time I stayed there I was stark as I didn't even notice some of those balconies are shared and I just ran for it and took a load of photos hoping no one saw me you could have got chucked out of that hotel they've got a Michelin star restaurant there yes And the food, I would say, was really exceptional.

20:39Like proper, well, I would say it's fine dining, but it's not ponzi or pretentious. Very casual. Very, very casual. And Leopold, he's just very passionate about what he does. It's all about the ingredients. And, you know, when anyone ever asks me which hotel to stay in for breakfast on the Amalfi Coast, I'm like, Casa Angelina has the best breakfast on that coast. I mean, sorry to Lisa Renuza, my friends there, but I'm just like, you know, that buffalo yogurt from Pestum is like the best thing I've ever put in my mouth, you know? Yeah, it's a lot of produce that is grown from their own gardens, their own land.

21:19It's all hyper-local, isn't it? Which when you're driving around the coast of Amalfi, you wouldn't really expect. Exactly. It doesn't look like terrain that's ripe for harvest. Yeah, yeah, definitely. And yet you see these vineyards kind of cascading down the hills as well, don't you? You think, how on earth are they getting to these bits? I mean, it is amazing how they navigate that landscape and terrain, isn't it? That's why they've still got the donkeys. So they're secretly going up and down whilst you're sleeping. Really? Well, during the night, obviously, I think what a lot of people forget is that a lot of the villages on the Amalfi Coast started up high but they had to come down because they had to be closer to water and if you've ever walked up to anywhere like Scala you're like dead by the time you get up there because it's such a bloody hard walk and you see the donkeys when you go up there and they're all packaged with lemons and all of these kind of herbs and they're still carrying up luggage here and there for, you know, backpackers because I would say the Italians, they stay up there, you know and then the tourists stay below because obviously everything's like 5 ,000 euros per night here and there.

22:35So, yeah, the donkeys do do hard work. I mean, it's a little secret, but, you know, they're still there. That's really interesting. I would say that one thing that I learnt when I was on the Amalfi Coast, or one little tip that I actually shared on my Instagram as well, was that obviously hiring a boat is a great way to see the coast, but it's super expensive. Very, very. so we just booked a ticket on the ferry between Amalfi to Positano. That's like 10 euros. Yeah, and we sat on the roof. We actually did a round trip just 45 minutes or so there and back at sunset as the summer's going down. And it was wonderful.

23:16And you don't have to pay 900 euros for a bottle of champagne. Exactly, exactly. So a way to see it and take some great photos from the water, I thought that was quite a good thing to do. Today's episode is brought to you in partnership with Airbnb. There's always so much to organise before a trip. The flights, the packing, the itinerary, and in my case, usually a fairly ambitious list of restaurants I'm hoping to visit. We have a trip coming up to Marrakesh, and the number of recommendations I'm currently wading through, at this point I think we'd need to be there for at least two weeks just to eat our way through the list.

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25:11You know, the beauty of Prajano is also the easiest gateway to the Path of the Gods. I don't know if you did that whilst you were there. No. It's an incredible hike that runs around the top of the mountain. And you get the most insane views. And you can actually walk straight up to it from Casangelina. Really? So you just go a little through the pathway on the village. And then I think it's about 1 ,850 steps. And you go past this beautiful monastery. I always have a semi-heart attack every time I do it because it's very hard. And you just see all of these local Italians just like running up. Strolling up there.

25:47Just like, okay, I'm unfit. Again, I think actually the last time I came off that I was purple. that's how that's how strenuous that thing but it's worth it but totally worth it you know I think I mean there's a reason it's called the path of the gods I mean it's so godly I mean you know the legend of the Amalfi coast was all based on Hercules and him finding his nymph Amalfi because it was the most beautiful place in the world to bury her and that's what you see from up there and you you know I don't know if you managed to get to Ravello from Cassangelina it's It's literally, I think, a 45-minute ride.

26:23But the Terrace of Infinity there. And I saw the same view. I was crying. That's, you know, it's just beauty. It's so poetic. And I think that's the beauty of the hotel, is it really brings up the poetic nature of the Amalfi Coast right in front of your eyes. You're so right. As a literature grad, I was emotional. That's amazing. Yeah, I do think that it is one of the most breathtaking locations in the world. And it's a reason why people have proposed to you there. They go on their honeymoon there. Yeah, for sure. And are willing to pay the prices. And are willing to pay the prices. So where are you back from most recently?

27:06So I was just in Ladakh in India, northern India. As you do. As you do. I was traveling around for eight days, I think it was, with Shakti. So Shakti Himalaya, incredible. Do you know what? Actually, it's funnily enough, this year has been like my year of monasteries. I think I must have visited about 150 monasteries. Wow. You know, from Nepal to Cambodia, China, everywhere. And I don't know if you've been to India before, but it's the biggest contrast from, say, anywhere in central to south or Rajasthan, whatever. and you're just greeted by some of the most incredible mountains you'll ever see in your life, you know, rich in minerals, pinks, purples, you know, these contrasting against all these sort of like dusty plateaus and then you have these incredible monasteries like perched across everywhere and, you know, to the west you've got the high plateaus that go on to the Hamalayas, places like Cargill, which is a totally different culture.

28:23It's predominantly Shia Islam, so the architecture changes. And then to the east you've got more plateaus where the nomads are and you can see them in their sort of, they're called Gerz in Mongolia which I was in before but you know a yurt essentially you know these incredible communities going round at like 5000 metres so that is Ladakh in a nutshell Wow What a romantic picture Everyone needs to go right now How did you get there? How was the journey? So London to Delhi, a night in Delhi at the Imperial Hotel, which was very nice, the Grand Dame of Delhi, and I did a nice little tour. And then the next morning, you just fly up to Leh, which is the main city.

29:14So there are two capitals, Cargill and Leh. Leh is the primary capital. You fly into there, if the weather permits. It was probably, I don't know if you've been to Paro and Bhutan, but it was the second scariest landing of my life, I would say, into Leh. Oh, wow, like three mountains to get in? So you have to fly over a mountain, curve through. You get all of those Himalayan winds. You can feel the plane shaking as you're turning. The wheels come out as you're turning. You'll think, oh, my God, why are we so close to that building there? And then you're landing into essentially a military base because it's a lot of, I think, 70 % of India's military is actually in Ladakh because of the borders there.

29:55But don't let that put you off. It's actually probably, I would say, one of the safest places in the world. But then you see when you're landing into military, you're kind of like, oh, God, what went wrong on the flight? you know it's like what's happening to us and then you get off and it's like welcome and you know actually whilst I was there the Dalai Lama was there so there were a lot of celebrations and did you catch a glimpse of him I wish I went past his summer palace I did ask if I could have an audience with him but the waiting list is just like you know I would have to be like Madonna or something like that to go and say hi but so is that where he has a summer residence Yeah, yeah.

30:32So he is, I don't know if it's the right way to say it, the big boss of the yellow sect of Buddhism. So you get a lot of the yellow sect temples there. So it's sort of the seat. So he goes there. It's sort of like when the Pope gives mass or whatever in the Vatican, he'll do the same from the Summer Palace type thing. And they have a lot of celebrations, but he's there for a month. what's still there and you know I was gutted not to meet him but I did meet an oracle which was just as fun an oracle? how would you define an oracle? well a Tibetan witress I suppose you would say wow so I had an afternoon with her and it was quite interesting seeing her possessed by a friendly deity you know she sort of sits there dresses as she's sort of uttering incantations and then, you know, is totally, like, overcome with another being, you know.

31:33And then she suddenly morphs into this deity and she's like, so what's your problem? And then you tell her your problem and then she fixes it for you. But actually she was very accurate on some things. So I have to give her that. It was actually quite eerie. Almost like a psychic or a medium in a way? Yeah, very much. Not in a medium in the sense where you'd like talking to the dead, but there are elements of it that she can really tell you what's going to happen to your future. And actually, one thing she was so right about, I had it confirmed today because I had to go to the doctors about what she told me.

32:08So actually, what she thought I might have, I actually ended up having. Did you have a translator telling you this? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So she was charging all in Tibetan, actually. and Sonam who was a translator was telling me everything and um did it scare you uh well in my career has kind of been like full of witches actually I've got so many witches who are friends from Guatemala to the Isle of Skye but actually I've just sort of like gotten used to it now so I kind of trust them how amazing yeah yeah wow and is that a kind of experience that your average traveler could have or did you have to hook that up no no definitely I think it's one of those things you know if you're staying especially with people like Shakti they really brought luxury tourism to Ladakh you know you ask and a local will take you to a shaman or a priestess and it's really one of the things that they think is a genuine Tibetan style experience a lot of people now actually go there for illnesses you know this particular Oracle is famed for that and you know she spent nine hours healing some healing someone with like flutes and sucking the energy out of someone so you know if you you do go there with a problem she'll sort it well it seems as though she's quite accurate then very very accurate and to be honest with you some of them have waiting lists like you know that's how high in demand they are so yeah well I'm glad you made it to her then yeah definitely which is sort of like one moment I was up on a mountain, the next minute I was with an oracle.

33:47Well, Luke, we've got a question that I feel like you're very well placed to answer. So this is Emma. She is in Northamptonshire and she says, I am craving a proper adventure. I want to travel somewhere that feels really remote, properly remote, where I can disconnect from my phone, switch off from modern life and feel like I'm in a completely different world. Where would you recommend? I mean Ladakh also actually would have been a good answer for this but. So just before I was in Ladakh I was in Mongolia. And Mongolia I think is one of the real last frontiers of nomadic civilization. And it's nothing new but I stayed at the Chinggis Khan retreat which is a famous polo hot spot.

34:37And it's in the middle of the Orkhan Valley. and surprisingly easy to get to. It's from Ulaanbaatar. It's a six, seven-hour drive and it's literally in the middle of nowhere. What was the landscape like? You've got steps that go on for miles and your only neighbours are nomadic tribes who literally come to the Orkin River, stock up and then leave. So you're just seeing civilisation. I mean, this is the birthplace of four great empires. This is where you're staying. and then you've just got wild horses running around you, yak being unbelievably cheeky sometimes, cows coming up to your girl and, you know, golden eagles flying above you.

35:24Like, it's incredible. And there's no internet, you know. And this was the first time in my entire life I'd ever used an outhouse, you know. And, like, I got into my girl and I was like, sorry, where's the shower? were where's the toilet it's like oh it's out there and you know you feel quite primordial you know and i was having ice cold showers in the morning that would wake me up and anything if you really need a total removal from normality where you don't have those home comforts but i mean to be granted there is a little bit of lux i mean the uh the girls are beautiful but you feel as though you're experiencing life as our ancestors did like 2 000 years ago type thing um so yeah that's where i say go and it's not make-believe because as you say this is life going on around you in the distance not at all and you know this is genuinely how people still live in mongolia you know they do travel they set up shop and they're very i think the beauty of it as sort of like I would cast myself as very privileged western tourist you know I've been so lucky to see enough you actually see how to be self-sufficient you know and things that we'd be like oh wow that's that's actually really quite smart and they'll come up to you it's like well we've all been doing it for about 18 ,000 years it's like do you not know how to pick a vegetable you know those kind of things and it's kind of a beautiful wake-up call you know and And also the opportunity for me to ride a semi-wild horse, a horse that's 80 % wild, was incredible.

37:12How did that feel? Well, my horse was called Zoom. Everybody else had horses that were called Chocolate, Brownie, Sugar. And I got the fast one. It was a polo horse. But he was really well behaved, like me, graying. but you know you get kids for example and this blew my mind they start riding from the age of four in Mongolia bareback no saddles yeah and I was like if I'm going to do this with no saddle I think I'm going to die but you know it was a slightly I had to get a bit of cushioning because I'm a bit sensitive on my bat area but you know galloping in those steps and all you can see it's like those grand Hollywood films and you just see these vast landscapes and you feel like a real cowboy you know yeah it was just amazing to me um and a very surreal experience to have nowadays I think what was it like for your mental health because I imagine a place like that is impactful Oh, yeah.

38:19I totally, you know what? So I am a literature graduate and I graduated back in 2014. I have not read a book since then. You know, I've still got PTSD from Virginia Woolf Studies, but I love Herbert too much. And I read for the first time. I was allowed to be in my thoughts. You sat, obviously it's like a dark sky reserve, so you sit under the Milky Way and you can just have these moments of peace and solitude which you wouldn't have in places like London or Northampton. It really gives you that time to sort of mull over everything and actually makes you realise that half the stuff that you think about every day doesn't matter, you know.

39:10And that, I thought, was, I suppose, one of the greatest gifts. I mean, especially in a lot of my writing, I always go on about, you know, solitude. I quite like to be alone. But here is a place where, you know, I was just walking in the middle of the night under the stars. And I had not a care in the world, apart from the Tibetan Mastiffs, which are huge dogs. But, you know, you just don't go near them. But it was the reset I think I really needed, especially after quite an intense year. and you can just, it puts everything into perspective, which I think everyone kind of needs a little bit more of nowadays, personally.

39:51Yeah, and it's so hard to come by. Totally. And, you know, these places like Mongolia and Ladakh equally, you know, I kind of worry that the tourism is on the rise a wee bit too much. so it should be you know Bhutan has their sustainability initiative where you have to pay a hundred dollars a day type thing you know places like that really need to be protected to allow people to have those moments how we do it I have no idea but it it really is a very special place and actually I suppose from a western perspective even things from political ideologies to religious ideologies, you actually realise just how much came out of Mongolia.

40:40And that in itself is like a huge education on top of an education on yourself, if that makes sense, you know. Oh, well, I mean, gosh, Emma, I hope that that answered your question. I think it truly did. What a picture that you painted. Well, Luke, thanks so much. No worries. We always end up asking at the end the destination that's at the top of your bucket list, you've been basically everywhere. So where is left for you to discover that you're dying to get to? So actually in Ladakh, I was looking at the map and I realised I haven't done many of the stans. So I'd like to do Kazakhstan, Tajikistan, all of those places.

41:23So I think once I've done that, I'll be a happy boy. Thank you so much, Luke. Of pleasure.

41:33I really enjoyed that. a huge thank you to the lovely Luke. He actually has a new book that is about to be released called The Luxury Travel Book, 25 Personal Experiences that make you rethink the world and your place in it. They're stories that make you think about the beauty of life and the mastery of human creativity. And it is packed full of Luke's beautiful photography too. So check it out. It's out in November, available for pre-order now. Thanks so much for listening today. If you enjoyed today's episode, Of course, please remember to hit follow or subscribe on your podcast app of choice.

42:07Do feel free to share the podcast with any of your travel loving friends. And if you'd like to find out who's joining me next Tuesday, come and follow me on Instagram and TikTok. I'm at Holly Rubenstein. I'd love to hear from you. In the meantime, wishing you guys all safe travels. I'll be back next week.

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