The Two Matts Q&A: Ketamine epidemic and trouble in Narnia

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1:36Hello and happy Sunday, everybody. Happy Sunday, one and all. Hope you're all having a great weekend so far. This is the Two Matt's Q &A brought to you by the subscribers of the New World magazine. Should we dive straight in, Matt? Let's go for it. First questions from Terry S. in Durham. Enjoyed your discussion about Andy B's first big global outing. But do you really think the UK can be the convener he wants it to be from outside the EU? I mean, come on, who are we kidding? Well, it's a good way of posing the question. And thank you, Terry, for that. I mean, I suppose it's, you know, just sort of for the record, it's worth remembering.

2:17We are still a member of permanent member of the Security Council, G7, senior in NATO, So fifth, which is by GBDP, they're not per capita. But we are not in the EU and that does matter. It really does. What do we, I mean, it's interesting. You look back at the sort of recent convening and I think the only example I can find that was of consequence was March 25 when Starmer, after Zelensky was given a severe kicking by Trump and Vance in the Oval Office, had that sort of snap summit of 18 world leaders at Lancaster House, the Coalition of the Willing on Ukraine, and that was consequential. And, you know, a lot of people in Number 10 talk about the AI safety summit at Bletchley Park in 23, which was under the Tories, to be fair, as having sort of kick-started a lot of AI.

3:10I'm not sure about that. I mean, I think. Yes, but what I really want to see on AI is something that has the equivalent power of the International Atomic Energy Agency. Yeah. And and the sad fact is that that was not started by Britain. It was it was the driving force behind that was Eisenhower and his secretary of state, John Foster Dulles. OK, and there was Strauss, who everyone remembers from Oppenheimer, and it was a and the Soviets, you know, and it's very hard to imagine a comparable AI body coming into being. We saw Trump and Xi carving up the world last week in Washington. You know, there are other examples like the ECHR.

3:58That was very much a UK show. But I think you have to be very careful before overstating the convening power of the UK. I mean, great if we can do it. Great if we can become known as a place where, you know, it'd be great if some of the Middle East talks can take place on UK soil. Why not? You know, but I think it's a mistake to think that automatically we are perceived around the world as the place where convening happens. I don't think that's true. I'd also push back slightly at the desirability of that being a sort of mainstay of Britain's place in the world. you know i mean norway is a great convener you know yes switzerland quatar holds convening you know convenes i'd rather be the convened than the convening that's a good i don't want to be i don't think britain's ambitions in the world should be like some international maitre d showing people to the table i want to be a concierge i want to be sat at the table and the table i really want to be sat at where are you know if convening power is important where we can really influence i want to be sat at the european table and you know the irony that we're talking about being this great convener you know and in the same sort of week as begging ursula von der leyen not to shut us out of this made in europe scheme you know that that they're contradictory and and i think you know I understand why Andy Burnham is inputting this obvious reality about us being a much more potent force in the world by being inside Europe I understand why he's not putting that front and centre but if you and I don't put it front and centre then nobody else will no that's right it's an obvious reality we should be and the sooner we are the better yes you're absolutely right I mean we don't want to be UK PLC with full conference facilities you know exactly exactly exactly um all right all right next one from spidey um friend of the show is trump right about the chagos deal from afar it doesn't look great but perhaps it's moral what do you think well it's it's difficult isn't it the chagos deal because it's tricky it's very terrible deal terrible deal i don't like it it's it's a lousy situation that we're in and i think this has been sort of lost in the mix um and it can't be restated too often is the reason that i mean britain just it's not some it isn't a moral imperative that britain has decided to hand it back to mauritius um and and rent the rent the land on an average of 100 million pounds a year for is it 99 years?

6:43I can't remember. It's 99, yeah. The reason we've decided to do that isn't some thunderbolt of ethical propriety. It's because there is an increasing sense, you know, the ICC basically said that our imposition of these bases on the Chagos Islands is illegal. And increasingly, there is great doubt about the validity of our so-called ownership of the Chagos Islands. And I think, to be fair to Starmer, there was a sense that that's only going to get worse and worse. And the best thing to do now was to get some security and to shore up our position by basically saying, well, OK, you have them, Mauritius, but we'll rent them for you on this very firm lease.

7:32Now, obviously, Mauritius is very close to China, so that's why America is very worried. although america's position has been entirely inconsistent rubio said good deal trump said it's a terrible deal all of this business i think what is you know if there's any moral um certainty about it it's the it's or or the place where the morality deserves some scrutiny is the relationship actually between the chagossians and the and the mauritians yeah you know the jagossians were all kicked out for was it 20 000 or 200 000 of them were were booted out for this US army base and you know have really suffered because of that and treated despicably and the Chagossians would say it's nothing to do with Mauritius it's Chagos you know it's our island we should have it back so I think if there's a moral argument to be had it's there but there is a there is a great difficulty that Britain is facing increasing international legal scrutiny about this arrangement on the Chagos Islands.

8:38And Starmer and previous governments have tried to put an end to that, albeit a very costly one. And Trump seems to have it very much as a transactional real estate deal in his head and thinks we've just paid too much for the land. Well, so no, I don't think Trump is right. but I can see how awkward it is for Burnham and I think it's it's going to be a very interesting test to see what happens if Wes Streeting and Burnham do come back and say well sorry Mauritius we're going to renege on the deal we've made and it's going to be a much smaller rental we pay. Yes I mean so it's back in 2019 the ICJ's original advisory ruling came thing and and it was the sunak government that began the negotiations not not starmer just completed them and and actually um you know starmer was right in the sense that if we hadn't complied it would have escalated to a non-advisory ruling there are various yeah escalations in that i think it was inevitable that was the case um and and you're right that um rubio initially welcomed the the treaties last may but then um it all went south where two things happened i think that farage and some other people poured poison into trump's ear and also um after uh he he starmer refused to get involved in the iranian adventure trump i think felt vindictive and that's where we are um so definitely we need i mean the west nato needs a base in diego garcia i think that's that's absolutely true it's an important base um it was slightly dispiriting to hear west streeting on the radio last week saying with honesty i mean fair play to him you know we can't do this unless the americans are on board and i thought that is a very interesting statement of real our politic and might is right, which is basically, you know, this is notionally at least a deal between Mauritius and the UK.

10:51Yeah. But what Streeting was saying was, yeah, but unless the Americans are okay with it, it doesn't matter. And I thought that tells you a lot about where we are in the rules-based order, actually. Yeah. It's a mess. It really is. And as you say. It'll come. It's not over. Oh, no. So, I mean, untangling this will be a nice, I mean, untangling treaty obligations. I mean, I don't think it's ratified yet, but it's incredibly messy. And what's been interesting is Kemi Badenok has picked it up as an issue that she can cause havoc with Labour. And so we'll see more of that at PMQs, I'm sure, at some point.

11:30OK, next question. From Susan in Sheffield. A credible pathway to joining or rejoining, as we call it in our old fashioned household, the EU is emerging already. When should Andy Burnham abandon or at least modify Britain's red lines and what action must precede that eventuality? Well, it's a good question. Thank you, Susan. Very timely as well. I mean, obviously, it should go without saying the sentiment is one I sign up to strongly. I think, you know, there's no doubt about that. I think the how matters, though, enormously. I do. And I know this irritates some pro-Europeans because they feel it's sort of unnecessarily sort of complex.

12:15But I think getting to where we need to be is going to be complex. so there's an argument on the basis of the polling that just help going full tilt back into a sort of on the front foot back in the single market back customs union back into the eu is would mobilize and unite the progressive vote and i say yes it might but it will also might unite the right as well that is happily fragmented at the moment okay so that's just worth bearing in mind the electoral argument in favor of this is not clinching also we must never forget that the remain campaign of 2016 is the great warning about how not to do any of this ever again it must never again be an elite project it must never again be based on the proposition that it's obvious or here in 900 statistics and i think so that in that context i felt when last thursday a big document from the tony blair institute emerged that's right um i thought look you know i'm unfashionably have still a strong regard for blair but i actually think that a multi-millionaire ex-prime minister who left office nearly 20 years ago launching a document that i checked uses the word rejoin nine times is not is what they think is suboptimal because it's absolutely tailor-made to be presented as turning the clock back and overturning a referendum by the bad guys and the you know it invites the the framing which is London isn't happy liberal London isn't happy with you guys um look what they're doing look what they're doing um I think a period of silence from Mr Tony on this would be welcome.

14:14I think we should leave, I frankly think we should leave Burnham to find a way of getting rid of those red lines. They have to go, but how you do that, how you get from A to B, you know, it's the old Shimon Peres that we can see the light at the end of the tunnel, but what's the shape of the tunnel? It's not straightforward. And that's why I, like you, am a joiner rather than rejoiner, not for reasons of just being difficult, But because I don't think just framing it as going back to the day before the referendum in 2016 is either politically feasible or even what we would be doing, because the EU we'd be joining is totally different.

14:54And by the time we do get back into the centre, which I very much hope we will, it'll be radically different. Yeah, I know. I agree with everything you've said. And I think for me, the sort of journey I've been on in the last 10 years has been an acceptance that, well, you know, one, obviously so that the people who voted to leave had good reason to vote to leave in great part, you know, and to dismiss that. I was going to say fear of mass migration, not just fear, but to their resentment of the consequences of mass migration, very real. And we've got to be addressed, not just to be mitigated or explained away, but to address.

15:39So I think Burnham's right in that to say we've got to solve the problems that cause that resentment and cause that propensity to fall into populist arguments that are based around lies. But, you know, that it's understandable that people who are suffering in society do feel, you know, the hell with it. I'll vote this. I'll vote that. This is the problem. That's the problem. They're the problem. you know that's all got to be solved not through explanation but through action their lives have to improve and they need to feel that improvement but equally i do feel that the let's there is a this is the other part of the journey and this is probably the part where i'll antagonize some of the listeners is that i do feel that the fundamental right of total freedom of movement has been shown to be really problematic and that it needs rethinking.

16:36And I don't believe that Britain will ever join, and you're absolutely right to say join, not rejoin, will join a European Union that still has those indissolvable freedoms. I think the European Union will move towards a refinement of those state those sort of dogmatic principles yes that have caught not they've caused problems not just for britain but they've changed the face of europe and some people may argue well they've changed it you know net additively you know that europe is is wholly better because of those freedoms but you know if you're in any other walk of life the rules of engagement change as time passes as you experience the consequences of the way you set out your store and i think for the european union to be utterly dogmatic about saying we will never change which by the way is explicitly still their position we will never change those freedoms it's going to be they i think they will and i think more to the point i think they should and i'm not saying we need to erect borders on every nation far from it but the control of movement so that nation states feel comfortable with the change is is something we should have thought of before this all happened um and something we definitely need to think about before we join a new european union i think 100 percent 100 right let's everybody take a deep breath and um we'll come back in a moment with more of your wonderful questions, dear listeners.

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19:15and unlimited dosage changes as needed. It's weight loss designed to work with your life. Ready to reach your goals? Visit 4hers.com slash eligible to get personalized, affordable care that gets you. That's F-O-R-H-E-R-S dot com slash eligible. 4hers.com slash eligible. Weight loss by HERS is not available in all 50 states. Wegovi is the registered trademark of Novo Nordisk AS. To get started and learn more, including important safety information, Wegovi clinical study information, and restrictions, visit ForHers.com. Your call has been forwarded to an automatic voice message system. A missed call doesn't feel like anything.

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20:58Welcome back, dear listeners. This is the Two Matts Q &A brought to you by subscribers of the New World magazine. By the way, for listeners of the Two Matts podcast, there's a£10 discount for the few tickets remaining to see Alistair Campbell and Michelle Hussain at Cadogan Hall in London on October the 22nd. What you do is you go to cadoganhall.com, you find the event, you enter the code ALISTERLIVE, A-L-A-S-T-A-I-R-L-I-V-E, ALISTERLIVE, all one word, into the discount box at checkout, and you buy your tickets, and you come and enjoy a wonderful night where there'll be bagpipe music, amazing conversation, and the possibility of saying hello to the two mats, no less.

21:39What more, can you? your cup runneth over so on with the questions from bb our young people seem to be in the grip of a ketamine epidemic every bit as terrifying as the heroin epidemic people of our age lived through in the 70s and 80s why isn't there a more urgent response from media and police has the taboo around class a drugs gone away somehow good question it's a it's a it's a fabulous question and it's one that the whole thing around ketamine i think is absolutely fascinating one point of fact uh bb and this is interesting as a point of discussion in itself is ketamine is not actually a class a drug it's a class b drug and it was only raised i think it's only 10 years or so it was raised from a class c drug to class b where um and and there's no question that it's caught hold um with i don't know if they're all young uh it's unknowable but i suspect they are young people.

22:37The way that governments analyse drug use is by analysing, literally forensically analysing our wastewater. And according to the wastewater analysis, there's been an increase in the last five years of 230 % of ketamine in the wastewater. So there's no question that it's become, if not the drug of choice for young people, certainly one of them and it's it's a it's a very very very dangerous drug it has horrific consequences to people's bladders that's right yeah I mean honestly some of the stories that you hear if you google it and this again is the point of the question I think you have to really google it to to find out this awful consequence um the absolutely terrible effects on young people who are using ketamine which is after all you know a major league horse tranquilizer um and uh you know very very dangerous drug is it the same as the heroin epidemic in the 70s and 80s i would argue not and it's part this is part of the the reason why it's not quite so visible is you know matt i i'm sure you experience this every bit as i did the heroin epidemic in the 70s and 80s was everywhere visible in society needles and i remember walking onto a train at seaforth and lidland in merseyside going home from school and there were two lads it was pretty empty the train there were two lads scruffy looking in utes, as we would say now, chasing the dragon on this train, this commuter service in the middle of the day.

24:24Chasing the dragon, for those not familiar, is burning heroin on silver foil with a lighter and inhaling the smoke that it gives off. So just another way of consuming this. And I'm sitting there absolutely terrified, mainly of the situation, but also of inhaling this poison. And this, I swear to God, this is a true story. This guy walks onto the train at the next stop. I think it was either Waterloo or Crosby. And he's a posh looking fella with two Dalmatians. I'll never forget it. Two Dalmatians straining at the lead and wearing a barber jacket. And he sits down opposite me in the set of four seats in this otherwise empty carriage while these two lads are doing this stuff, totally oblivious and not caring about who's looking at them.

25:11And I look at him and he looks at me and I sort of raise an eyebrow and shake my head like, you know, can you believe this? And he looks at them and says, well, if you don't have one too, I'll have one too. And he gets his, honestly, it was everywhere. Needles in every kind of back alley and stuff. And I think that's, and it was also at a time of total economic collapse and tragedy, you know. And they were seen as part and parcel. And I think ketamine is seen as a party drug from young people. It is, no, no, very much so. and of no consequence but i really think that you know when when uh bb says has the taboo around class a drugs gone away somehow i think to a degree yes i suspect that there's a generation who are much less uh concerned or acceptance of drugs just being part and parcel of their social life than than the kind of real hardcore injection of heroin was in the 70s and 80s i find it very As a parent of three kids, I do find it really quite scary that that might be the case.

26:14Yes, no, it is scary. I thought that the death of Matthew Perry in 2023 from COVID-19 would be one of those change moments. But it wasn't. And as you say, I mean, it was put up for reclassification as a class A drug. I think the cops are quite keen on that. um and there's an advisory council that works for the home office and they rejected it in in in january 26 and said no remains class b so to put that in context class a is like things like heroin cocaine mdma meth even magic mushrooms right yeah class b is cannabis speed codeine nitrous oxide right so codeine and ketamine classified as the same thing yes it's incredible Yes.

27:01And nitrous, which is, you know, ridiculous, but but hardly, you know, in the same category. And, you know, again, a little figure that shows you the trend, which is in in.

27:16In 2024 to 25, 5 ,365 adults started treatment with ketamine problems, 12 times the comparable number from 10 years ago. Wow. and so the numbers of deaths from ketamine on are small compared to heroin and cocaine at the moment and this is often prayed in aid by people who say look it should stay class b but they always start small yeah you know remember everyone remembers the the opioid um epidemic in the states you know uh which was a very that started small and then it became deaths of despair it was an absolutely massive social problem so I'd like to see this nipped in the bud and I find it extraordinary it's not a class a drug and I think that it's obvious I think you're you've nailed it in your distinction between and I remember in the 80s when I had an office job on the strand and and in one summer and I'd walk down the strand and and and there you'd see people you know with works with syringes hanging out their arms.

28:25But it was vivid in your face and it was very hard to avoid. Ketamine has that sort of post-Irvin Welsh party glamour, I'm afraid. And that glamour is entirely illusory. It's a bad drug. It's very funny, isn't it? How actually if you're going to... Because they look so similar. they're both white powders that you snort so if it has the same vibe as coke doesn't it which and coke has always had a totally contradictory vibe to heroin heroin scene is like yes that's where you end up that that you're really in trouble if you're on heroin but cocaine oh no you can be a glamorous successful business yeah right you know but but we're fine you know whatever you want it's never been my scene but for ketamine for for young kids to be accepting that as just part of a good night out i think that is really really troubling i think there's there's also a big confusion in this which is that and you can see this as well in in the world of psychedelics which is that there is undoubtedly a move towards the use of ketamine as there is with um various approved psychedelics in the treatment of um depression yes psychiatric treatments now under very very strictly controlled clinical professional circumstances that's one thing but sometimes the leap is made from that to oh well if doctors hand it out it must be fine to hand it out at um you know desmond's party on on saturday night no yeah you know any more than you would hand out you know um insulin or chemotherapy i mean it's ridiculous it's a ridiculous read across but you're right it does have this sort of bogus respectability which i think is yeah if people people are keen up for elect electroshock therapy parties exactly yeah or you know amputation or open heart surgery at a rate um you know it ought to be you know it ought to be a seriously controlled substance and also it is often cut with fentanyl with all sorts of Well, the fentanyl thing is the, that is the terrible thing.

30:38Jeez Christ. I mean, I went to Seattle, as you know, a couple of, well, it was nearly two years, but it was last summer, I think. And honestly, in the street corners of downtown Seattle, people doing this thing called the Fenty Fold, where they've taken fentanyl and they involuntarily fold over. Just fold over. Like they're hinged at the hip and stay in a state of, in basically a comatose state. Unbelievable. I mean, that fentanyl in the States is a problem I don't think we've ever experienced, even including the heroin epidemic we were exposed to in the 70s and 80s. It's a real shocker. All right, listen, this next question, I am hoping you've got some deep intelligence on it because I must say it's not down my strasser.

31:31Anyway, it comes from Danielle in Archway. I have a distant memory of reading the Narnia books when I was a kid, but I was surprised to see that everyone has gone crazy about Greta Gerwig casting Meryl Streep as Aslan the Lion in her new movie. It now seems no blockbuster is complete without a big culture war before it comes out. Am I missing something? um no danielle you're not and let just to those who are sane and have lives and you know have not been troubled by this um and i'm sorry danielle was um just let me explain briefly the background which is that there's a big greta go away who did barbie you know brilliant director you might remember lady bird and barbie of course super accomplished director um is making at least two narnia movies for netflix and the first is coming out in february and it's called it's based on the magician's nephew by c.s lewis which is the sixth he published in his narnia books but is actually the first in the chronology so it's interesting she's gone back to it now as we saw with the odyssey and the buyer tapestry this year you know it is danielle's right that it seems to be now the preamble to a big cultural event that everyone loses their mind online so let's sort of take that as read and i'll try and weave a swift you know path through the weeds to explain why they have lost their minds and you know first thing to say is greta gewick is a very very accomplished director and she is creatively entitled to do what the hell she likes free society she's a director she's you know she showed with barbie and other movies that she knows what she's doing and you know it's got daniel craig as the magician and now meryl streep as aslan the lion which is why there's a problem and i'll try and explain why um but you know there is no question we haven't seen it yet this is of course the big thing as with the odyssey as people were saying oh it's going to be so woke before they'd seen a minute of it so no one has seen it yet there hasn't been in the trailer so why is there a fuss okay deep breath you think that homer fans and anglo-norman obsessives are obsessive you have let me introduce you to c.s lewis fans right and i've just spent a few days at oxford with some of them and i so i'm sort of to the rim of it um the problem is that unlike homer and william the conqueror c.s lewis only died in 1963 same day as jfk and aldous tuxley interestingly so he didn't get quite the obituaries he'd hoped for slightly less dramatic less a little bit dramatic yeah but unlike dr r tolkien his great friend and and collaborator he wrote more than 40 books many of which explained his very specific positions on this and so his fans who are legion have plenty of ammunition on every detail of everything that's done with everything he writes yeah now the problem with aslan and this this passes a lot of people by because again they have lives and why should they care it's only a line it's only a movie aslan is not an allegory for jesus aslan is actually meant to be jesus lewis used the word supposal what would jesus be like in an alternate world there's not an analogy to christ in the way that say gandalf or superman might be this is the narnian manifestation of jesus christ and And throughout the Narnia books, Aslan is called the son of the great emperor beyond the sea, the king of the wood, the king of the beast, hiking above all kings, king, king, king, king, masculine pronouns.

35:11No, they, them pronouns for Aslan. Right. So for Lewis fans, this is kind of crucial. OK, that he it's a he. And so and, you know, Lewis himself was emphatic in his various Christian writings about the maleness of Jesus, et cetera, et cetera. I think that this will probably dissipate because when it's seen in the context of the movie, it will probably seem much less toxic than it does now. But for a certain quarter of social media and you have to give the C.S. Lewis Christian Lobby a little bit of grace, because the point they're making, which I do understand, is if Greta Gerwig was making a rock opera about Muhammad.

35:56Right. And cast a woman. then I'm not sure everyone would be saying oh stop it you big silly right and it is good news by the way that the Pope, the Archbishop of the Canterbury and the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople are not going to issue a fatwa over this and we're all going to see the movie but that is just a sort of elevator pitch guide to why it's such a fuss but when it comes out in February by the way by the time it comes out in February there'll be 10 other things that people are furious about happy about you know it's just the way we i have a feeling and i don't know whether you agree with this um i think greta gregis knows exactly what she's doing this is just a free a free pass for a lot of publicity look it's actually quite a hard set it's the narnia books are big big sellers right but they're not as big sellers as the lord of the rings so she has a bigger task promotionally than peter jackson had with the lord of the rings and the hobbit she's got to get this in this cultural mainstream well before it comes out on imax screens and i just have a feeling she dropped us into a big interview with um empire magazine yeah you know meryl streep's playing the rumors are true meryl streep's playing aslan i think grega go super super smart brilliant woman yeah i think she knew exactly what would happen and it has So we're all now we're all talking about a movie I didn't even know existed.

37:25And now I know its launch date. Right. So do you remember, you know, before the Odyssey came out, everyone was arguing about poor old Elliot Page playing Achilles, which he wasn't. And then he turned out to be brilliant in any way in another role. And I hope he gets an Oscar nomination. So probably by the time this comes about, there'll be something very different. But Daniel's question is right, because this is now how culture is done. And it's by no means healthy, but it requires a lot of unpacking sometimes. Unpack this for me. What I can't understand is why, and at the risk of getting fatwired up by C.S.

38:04Lewis fans, why does C.S. Lewis fans rail against Greta Gerwig casting a woman to play Aslan? But hold on. Let me say when they they seem completely unbothered by C.S. Lewis casting a lion to literally play Jesus. Well, they they've seen that one coming. And again, I don't know. What's the what's the answer? The answer is that that. Well, I mean, the sensible answer is there is no answer. Right. You make a good point. OK, yeah. Their answer is that that. Narnia is full of magical creatures. Right. But their sex has to remain the same. And the reason for that, of course, and then now we get into slightly murkier territory, which is that for a certain kind of Christian and certainly C.S.

38:56Lewis fans, the maleness of Jesus, as opposed to the femaleness of Mary the Virgin, right? and the maleness of the disciples stroke apostles is crucial to the whole bloody deal right and of course this is why you know a lot of anglicans have left the church of england and rushed off to the church of rome because we now have women priests you get into very very deep waters there but that that's the reason obviously to most people who go it won't matter at all okay yeah julian of norwich right yeah used to the famous i don't know what century she was a long time ago mystic used to refer to christ the mother you know without any yes there is a counter tradition i mean and and there is also a counter tradition that that christ i mean god it gets so complicated christ now because wherever he is is transcendent and therefore without sex but christ incarnate yes god i'm getting tired listening to myself was definitely not a lion and but was a man but was in judea 80 30 what was it in life of brian about tea time you know was definitely a geezer okay yeah yeah i just offer that as a sort of public service announcement do with it what you will listeners you know right anyway so the only thing anyone can remember from that conversation is that there is a film called the magician's nephew which is which is why Which is why Greta wins, right?

40:30Yeah, exactly. So, last question. From Desi in Woolwich, and it's a good one. So pleased to see Emily Maitlis joining the new world, as are we all. It made me think that she and your other great diarist, Alastair Campbell, who made their names as a top BBC presenter and a famous political strategist, are now known to a new generation primarily as podcasters. I remember your discussions in 2024 about the first podcast presidential election, Trump appearing on Joe Rogan and so on. What does the dominance of podcasting mean? Is it a welcome development in media and politics? I mean, it's fascinating.

41:09And I think it's I do think it's a really important question and probably not one that's been sort of thought through enough or debated enough about what does this rise of podcasting mean? and what's the difference and the effect on on everyone and there are obviously there are some sort of clear differences and obviously it'd be really weird for you and i to be arguing that podcasting is a negative force in media so yeah broadly speaking i think it's it's it's it is wholly positive i think it's a very engaging format you know i hope dear listeners you are feeling engaged and at least entertained a little bit by by the podcast um and it's it's one that You know, every media has characteristics that impose themselves on the content.

41:57And one of the characteristics that podcasting imposes on the content is one of trust, I think, that people tend to trust the people that they're listening to. It's very different from, say, a radio show where you listen to it with a news radio talk show. You're listening to it with a slight remove. You don't necessarily, you know, with obvious exceptions, but you're not listening to the Today programme thinking that you're, you know, Nick Robinson's mate, you know. Right. We miss Amal and we'll miss Emma Bart, but we'll still listen to the Today programme. Exactly right. Exactly right. You know, and so, but maybe there's a greater affinity and through that affinity with the speaker comes a bit of trust.

42:45I mean, there are obvious problems because it's a new format. It's not regulated in the same way radio is, for instance. I think one of the really interesting phenomenons is the effect that podcasting is having on radio. Our radio is seeking to become more podcasty. We just talked about the Today Show. I mean, I have to say, I know some of the characters involved, but it really grates on me. The banter. the banter where the two podcasts with just just freudian slip there the two radio presenters are suddenly chewing the fat about what they think about the topic they've just discussed and i'm sitting there thinking that's not what i'm here for i want to hear the next subject analyzed interrogated interviewed you know i don't want to hear i don't care what you think about it and yet there's a great degree of hypocrisy there because why should i assume anyone Well, yeah, but I think about something.

43:39Because you're doing a podcast. Yeah, right. But it is interesting, isn't it? They're both, you know, they're both received through, probably through headphones, mostly, through phones, you know, smartphones or laptops. And they're people talking about, you know, cultural, political subjects. If you took an alien from Mars and tried to explain the difference between a radio show and a podcast, I suspect you'd have to talk for quite a long time to make it clear what the differences were. And yet, for people like us, there is a clear difference and there are different values. Yes, that's true. I mean, one thing is that they are, you know, one of the good things, supposedly, although it's not always consistent, is, you know, the regulation of views on broadcasting, political views, that there's meant to be a balance.

44:32there's meant to be a sense of a lack of partisanship and that's totally absent from podcasting you know we try to be fair but we've clearly got positions that we hold undisguised yeah under yeah undisguised but but to um to desi's point about um the conversation we had about joe rogan that that's another flaw potential flaw about the way things are going If these things do become, if podcasting does become a dominant media, which it is, then politicians can choose to swerve the things where there's a rigour attached to them. I can sit in with a very friendly presenter like Joe Rogan and talk for three hours and gain this huge audience without any substantive challenge.

45:17That's that's not good for democracy. no it isn't and it's it's it is fascinating and i think it is as you say about the the in a way it's the biggest question of media at the moment because it's it's a kind of it's a meeting place of so many other questions so in a way it happened by a series of accidents because podcasts have been going for a long time before they became what they are now i think what i think you're Right. I think smartphones was the key because once smartphones became the sort of convergence device, then we started multitasking with our media consumption. And people were looking for things to listen to when they were walking or commuting or at the gym or whatever.

46:01And it didn't just want to do music. They listened to music, although they did. But podcasting fit right in. And then Spotify really got into it. And I think that was a game changer. And they pay they did a hundred million dollar deal with Rogan. And that was another big thing. The pandemic was another big thing as well, because people had so much time. And look, I mean, it's there are so many things about it that are appealing. I mean, it has the cost of the means of production. I mean, a lot of a lot of podcasts are produced with huge costs, you know, but like ours, for instance. exactly i mean we no expense spared for the listeners of the two mats but there are some yeah but there are also some fairly you know garage east um podcasts like that and all power to their elbow because i like that that you 100 and also there's limitless choice because there's nothing too niche you know if you want to listen to as i do um you know crazy movie fans talking about something rather there's there are there's a hundreds of podcasts listened to and you choose the ones you like and yeah if you're into football you know i'm people tell me i'm not a football fan people tell me there's some amazing podcasts out there yeah for sure so and as you say there's an intimacy and authenticity about it i think that where i the only thing i get worried about with it is you said something that sort of absolutely nailed it for me which was we know what it is right for us it's exactly what it is which is it's conversation without the um the sort of barriers of of impartiality rules and so on and it's a bolt on to all of the other things that we take for granted in our media intake so we do listen to the today program we do read the papers we do read trusted sources you know yeah um and i I hope, you know, and it's for readers, listeners to judge, but I hope that we're reasonably well briefed before we come on air.

48:05But there is a danger. That if the dominance continues and other sources of media continue to face business model crises, that podcasting will be all that's left. And I don't think that's a good idea. And I think using podcasts as your primary source of news, as opposed to your primary source of a sort of hand held out, a voice that you recognize. This is what we think. Here's an opinion you might like to consider. Here's an interesting guest. Great. But if you lose that infrastructure, that foundation of good old fashioned reporting and analysis, then the whole thing is on stilts rather than a sturdy footing.

48:51A hundred percent agree. And by the way, that is why. And thank you, by the way, Desi, for your delight in Emily Maitlis joining the new world. You're almost as delighted as we are, absolutely chuffed. And she's written two diaries for us and they're both absolute belters and there'll be a regular flow of diary content from Emily. But it's a very good point actually that I think that's a compliment to Emily's newsagent podcast is that she's also doing a considered diary for us. Alistair's diary is a compliment to the rest of politics. and when you consume all of these things in the round well you get a very rounded view of the world but if you're just sitting there if all you do is listen to joe rogan then and and joe you know that's another very interesting fact about podcasts is the potential length of them you know if you're sitting there every time joe does a three-hour podcast and you're listening to that religiously that is a huge amount of content to be absorbing from a single source and you would I would want that source to be absolutely rigorous and exploring all sorts of different versions of life.

50:03And I'm not sure Joe lives up to that, but yeah, it's an interesting format and there's certainly a net positive, you know, there's no question. I mean, the, the, the interesting thing will be where it goes next, because, you know, one of the things it is certainly doing, I think it, it's very, it's different in this country because I still think that in its way, the BBC has such a gravitational pull that, and to your point about the relationship between radio and podcasting and TV and podcasting, remains there. You know, it's no accident that the news agents, which features three ex-BBC superstars, you know, does so well.

50:44And, you know, and Alistair and Rory are both sort of highly respected figures from the world of politics. It's no accident. And it's not stand up comedians like Joe Rogan or MMA, you know, hosts like Joe Rogan, who are sort of leading the pitch. And I think in Tucker Carlson's show in America, you see something which is very influential and was used to mainstream Nick Fuentes in a way that, you know, really was a terrible step forward. Now, we don't have an equivalent of that. There are many podcasts in this country that are adjacent in ideology to Tucker Carlson, but they don't have the reach.

51:25And so the defamation, the deformation of political process in this country is not the same as in America. But it is it is worth watching. And it will be. We were talking on Thursday about the midterms coming in America. You know, how Podcasterstan responds to the likely defeats of the Republican Party will be a big part of the story. Definitely. I mean, in terms of where it goes next, I think the most interesting area of expansion is YouTube. And I thought it was very interesting, Amol Rajan, who's left the Today programme and has launched this enterprise, the Amol Rajan Connection. um that that's largely a youtube format as i understand it and i think it's fascinating that that it's a i think it's a wholly different demographic it's a younger demographic i do think it's a totally different approach to content as well it's much more uh this i haven't seen any of amol's content yet i'm not sure how much he's put out there but if you take pierce for instance Piers Morgan's stuff on YouTube, you can see how much more antagonistic and sharp and produced it is, you know, and how everything in Piers' show is about confrontation.

52:43It's a panel show. It's like, well, in some ways, it's like what I think Question Time should be, except... Bare knuckle, bare knuckle question. It's obviously, it's a bit too bare knuckle. It's a bit too, there's no real room for, it's a fight, isn't it? You know, it's a fight. And I'm sure Amos won't be like that. He's much more considered, and I'm sure there's space in the market for both of them. But again, YouTube is a totally different format to podcasting. And I think for whatever reason, there's more money now flowing into YouTube productions than there may be into Spotify and podcasting.

53:22Anyway, we will see. I'm old school enough. I do like the fact and I've always liked the fact that the two Matt's and now our colleagues at Touching Grass. Do check it out if you haven't. Lucy Reed and James Ball is really good. It is intimately connected with the new world. Yes. I feel I feel it, you know, they're inseparable. so when when we do our podcast i feel you know you the first thing you say is brought to you by the subscribers of the new world and that makes me feel yeah i'm grounded in a really really high quality magazine product that that um has the highest standards you know and and that's that's where we come that's the ecosphere in which we operate yeah well since you've tossed up you've Tossed up that volley.

54:14I'll just return it. Go on, knock it into the back of the court. Subscribe to that high-quality magazine environment, folks. Go to the newworld.co.uk forward slash 2max. You don't subscribe. We're not doing it anymore. Well, there is a sort of ultimate reality to that. I'm sure lots of people listen to the podcast often and don't subscribe. Well, that is fine. It's not an absolute requirement. It's sort of fine. Sort of fine. but we'd love you all never if you and if you can't afford not everyone can afford it of course you know but if you can't afford it then then do subscribe because also i genuinely think it will enhance your yeah you can afford you can afford sky tv and netflix and a flat screen though can't you you'll come in overall kemi badlock if you're on benefits and you subscribe to the new world you can afford special bro can't you do you know i think by the way just before we yeah i mean call me off actually i i i'm sure it's right in the great moral scheme of things right to say welfare recipients shouldn't be allowed to have alcohol right i just don't think it's necessarily a vote winner i just think when when parties come out and say you can't boo drink with it that's not something i remember john do you remember john reed i did they had this twang to somebody there was a there was a big row and it might have been blair it might have been brown i can't remember but it was about smoking and cigarettes and tries to smoke and john reid i can't even remember what ministry was he was a home secretary right and he said look you know uh look before we all demonize smokers let's just realize that for a lot of people that is one of their nothing wrong with the joys you know and a puff at the end of it you bastard yeah and i sort of thought this is a great man this is you know kemi badenock saying i understand where she's coming from you know and i understand it's tapping into perhaps a bigger emotion that you know welfare's gone way too far and people are taking the piss and i'm sure that's true in some some places but to frame it like that saying you won't be able to have any of life's enjoyments if you're long-term unemployed i think that that is quite a disgusting approach to yeah i say this is a happily sober person but you know I do think just looking at the political scene, that a party that says to any section of the electorate, you can't have a pint, right?

56:42Yeah. Is being associated with temperance historically has not proved to be a vote winner. Just throwing that out there. Don't have a dog in this fight, but you know, just thought. Let us know what you think, dear listeners, on any of the topics. Very keen to hear what you think about banning welfare recipients. Meanwhile, Burnham is saying football fans should be able to have a pint on the terraces. He knows where the voters are. Of course he is. Yeah, but he's totally right. I mean, look, if you take Keir Starmer's view to attending football matches, which was to go into the exec box, and Burnham's, which is to say, I'm going to go as I always have done, you know, taking Carney there.

57:26But then for him to say, why is it? He went to a rugby league game at Goodison Park. And, of course, everyone's drinking. And he's saying, well, why should football fans not drink? There's a great – we should do a podcast about the relative treatment of football fans over the years. They have been treated like absolute scum for decades. And the causes of it, it's deeply embedded in working-class culture and the establishment's attitudes towards it. Yeah, no, I mean, I heard a discussion on the radio the other day about it. And saying, oh, you know, if they're allowed to have their drinks on the terrace, they'll throw the drinks everywhere.

58:05And I thought, hang on a minute. You know, you know, he says who? Most of them are the same people who are at rugby games, rugby league, rugby, you know, Oasis concerts. Or Oasis concerts. Everyone's having a good time having a pint. I mean, honestly, he's absolutely right. And I think he should double down on that. Yeah. Anyway, dear listeners, let us know what you think. I'll be right. Are we wrong? Labour is the fun party, guys. the Tories are the non-fuckers they're the glam party the glam party there we go he hasn't lost it has he you can read Matt Dancona every week in the New World so there's a great reason to subscribe go to thenewworld.co.uk forward slash twomats that's the number two M-A-T-T-S there's a special offer waiting for you there right now for twomats listeners get your tickets for the Cadogan Hall event with Alistair and Michelle Hussain on October the 22nd cadoganhall.com is where to go special offer Alistair Live gets you£10 off your ticket.

59:03Send in your questions, your observations to twomats at tnepublishing.com and thank you to the third Matt for producing the show. Thank you Matt. That's where you normally say thank you Matt. But you're not feeling very grateful today Matt. I'm incredibly grateful, thank you Matt. And until at latest next Thursday, have a fantastic week.

59:57We'll see you next time. ship up to 15 times more with up to 90 % savings. Go to shipstation.com and use code audio to try ShipStation free for 60 days.