The Two Matts Q&A: The decline of Zack and best ever speeches

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1:24in Camden. Is Zach Polanski finished? Matt? Well, say what you think, Kim. Don't chilly-chally. Well, not at the time of recording yet, but he's certainly well on his way to Finishedville, Arizona, I think, after his pretty dire performance in the last week. And we talked on the Thursday pod about his absence from the vote on the vote over Zionism. But he lost, as everyone will know, in Thursday's by-election in Hoban and St Pancras. This is to elect a successor to Skiir Starmer, who you may remember, those with historical mindset. And the new MP is Sigal Abdiwali, who I think will do a very good job.

2:13I mean, look, tiny, just for completism, tiny flakes of comfort for the Greens. They got a 13 % swing. They cut the majority from 11 ,500 to 3 ,300. But the reality is that it was a by-election and so low turnout. And B, there was no separate Gaza independent running this time. So really, it was a pretty disappointing performance for the Greens, given that it was their leader. and when you think back to February and the sort of energy of Hannah Spencer's victory in Gorton and Denton and how you know that was both part of Starmer's sort of eventual departure but also it was a big moment for the Greens you know that you know it was a very important moment in their sort of emergence as a serious progressive party and rival to Labour and then they did very well in May best ever local elections so you know this shows Burnham showed him make a feel that he can see off reform and now he's shown in Hoban and St Pancras that he can see off the Greens and I mean I think there's lots of interesting questions I mean Caroline Lucas on Newsnight on Thursday night was you know friend of the show former leader of the the greens very very um you know strong on on polanski's weaknesses and you know didn't quite say he's got to go but all but and i mean i think there's a lot of greens will be asking themselves whether he has gone from being a kind of dynamic asset to being a spectacular liability the other question i'd be interested in what you think about i mean um you know does he have stamina because it took Farage, you know, it was only his eighth go before he got a seat.

4:06Plansky says he's still up for becoming a member of parliament. I wonder whether he actually has that resilience. Yeah, no, I agree. I mean, the case for the defence is that he has swollen the membership massively. Undoubtedly true. And, you know, it's not that long ago that he was being talked about. And we talked about him as a new, you know, a new force in politics that needed to be taken seriously. But again, you know, this theme of how quickly things move. I mean, you're absolutely right to say that the people who there was a lot of fascinating polling done by More In Common, a polling outfit who did a deep dive into Zach Polanski.

4:51I mean, the first thing to say is amongst the population generally, he is now the least popular party leader in the country, which is which is amazing. Less popular than Nigel Farage, which is amazing. He was only a leader in September. Yeah, but I mean, it's the sort of hubris and nemesis kind of swing, isn't it? It is exactly that. What seems to be the case amongst Green Party members is he's massively popular with young women, right? So women under 25, massively popular, generally popular with young people who consider themselves to be of a kind of revolutionary spirit who want radical change.

5:33And that base is firm. But what his mission was, his KPI really, was to bring across people who were disaffected by Keir Starmer's lack of active progress and say, well, the Greens are the party that can get stuff done. And he's been completely usurped in that mission by Andy Burnham. And I would also say that where the polling for more in common is fascinating is that the two issues that really have sort of hallmarked the Greens in recent times, which is gender identity and the Middle East, Gaza and Israel. Actually, amongst the population of Green Party members at large, they are way down the priority list of things they care about.

6:21way down they don't they don't care about um about the transgender issue yeah yeah they they care about guess what the environment you're having me on there is a bloody clue in the name and it is a bit of a giveaway that i think where caroline lucas talks about you know she talks specifically about an absence of leadership about not being there to try and um uh get rid of that resolution or to forestall it or to argue or to support it just to be there right yeah but i think generally perhaps in six months time or a year's time we'll look back at zach polanski and think he was looking in the wrong direction he was barking up the wrong trees and it does seem a shame that we've gone from the greens being a fringe party obsessed with the climate and the environment to being now a fringe party obsessed with with transgender identity and with israel uh neither of which are very high up with their members priorities so it's a it's a curious state of affairs i listen i listened to him with nick robinson on yeah on thursday on friday on thursday being absolutely toasted you know it was it was an awful but what what i did sort of feel with there was a kind of courage within him though at the end where he was confronted with Robinson saying you know you've inherited these cranks from Corbyn right and yeah and the easy thing for him to say was well we're not your party we're not I'm not Jeremy Corbyn I am the leader of the Greens but he didn't he made a defense of Jeremy Corbyn and said Jeremy Corbyn And I thought, look, I don't agree with a word of that.

8:06I think it's tactically inane to be allying yourself with Jeremy Corbyn. But I did admire his principles. I do think bizarrely he has got some spine. I just think he's looking in the wrong place and it'll cost him. Making friends in all the wrong places. It's interesting. um i mean obviously you know you'd have to have a heart of stone not to laugh at what's happened in the last week a bit but um but there is a kind of broader point which i think one has to step back and and and kind of assess which is the kind of volatility that you talked about matt where you can be the kind of messianic new leader of the greens in september massive new membership big electoral gains and then go to being the least popular leader in the country in just over a year is I don't think it's just personal to Polanski I suppose that's what I want to say is that that volatility is now reaching a kind of dangerous level right because it's impossible to conduct sort of statecraft in that environment so I think the challenge of Burnham as prime minister is to try and sort of somehow become that volatility, at least in his role and indeed for the other party leaders, because the swing, the kind of swing from love to hate with politicians, which always happens.

9:36I mean, you know, Blair went from 97 to being the person responsible for Iraq and helping Israel in Lebanon and hated, you know, when he left. But that took 10 years. you know there's something slightly pathological i think yes that we have to sort of keep an eye on that's all yeah no i agree there is there's another element to it which is interesting i think and may be slightly reassuring to you on the basis of the conversation we had on thursday which is yeah according to the more in common polling the the moment the public started to slip away there are two things that the general public turned away from polanski on one is his bizarro, dodgy, hypnotist business background.

10:20But the other is specifically his reaction to the gold as green stabbing. Oh, that's very interesting. And that is cited in the polling as a moment when the general population thought, nah, not for me. Not for me. I just thought, look, I mean, what it adds up to, I don't know. But I thought it was... That is interesting. It was better than the other way around. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Completely. Right. Right. Next question from Squire John. Burnham's promise to, quote, to lay out the options on Europe. Is that courage or is it the oldest trick in politics, commissioning a decision instead of making one?

10:56What do you recommend? Well, it's a very good question. And my answer is yes, in the context of just breaking the spell, breaking the taboo of saying Brexit sucks. you know that we're going to make it work I think that was courageous and I think you know if you look at the evidence for that being just plain old reality and the fact that nobody else up until now has said it I think you've got to give Burnham the credit for just even putting up the flag and saying you know this is this is a bad situation and we've got as a country to to work out how we get out of it now obviously I would I would have loved him to say you know the hell with You know, we need economic growth.

11:44We need closer relations with Europe. The general population agree with me. We're going to pursue entry to the single market again or the customs union or something really material. And this is what I want to do. I suspect that will come. I suspect that we, you know, I don't know. I suspect in Andy Burnham's head, he's got a very clear idea of what the sequencing of events will be. And probably a very clear idea of what the destination will be. But he's smart enough to know that it's a journey. And he doesn't have to take me and you on that journey. He's got to take people who are very skeptical for all sorts of great reasons, you know?

12:22And so, yeah, I think it is courageous. I, I think we've said this before. I don't think that when Andy, but there is a slight deceit in this idea of I'm just trying to gain consensus. You know, I want to, I want to put Ed Davey's idea on the table. I want to put, you know, Nigel Farage's idea on the table. You know, I want, I want everybody to have their ideas. Rupert Lowe, what do you think? Rupert Lowe, come on in. Come on, Tommy Robinson. Come on down, Tommy. Danny Tomo, where's yours? I don't believe that. I think Andy Burnham is much steelier than he lets on and he knows what he wants. And I suspect so does John Healy as well, crucially.

13:01And yeah, so I think courage and a bit of the oldest trick in politics as well. Yeah. Yeah, no, exactly. I mean, I think that he I think the point you made about breaking the crust was the key because someone sooner or later had to call out the referendum's clothes, absence of clothes. And he he has at last done that. And that's a big deal. And in a sense, everything follows from that. Now, the question is how, at what pace, at what form the signals last week from Europe were good. clearly they want us back how we get it uh in what way um you know that that's that is that is a genuinely tricky question in the sense that there is a sequence you said matt and um you know there are there are all sorts of questions that need to be answered like what's the message um were we going to schengen and the euro i don't know uh what what there won't be a rebate uh will there be carve outs i don't know um i think we've discussed on the on the pod before it can't just be an election manifesto thing because no parties ever has got 50 or more since 1931 so it needs to be a referendum which is horrendous but unfortunately the case yeah if it's a substantial change anyway um and how much energy and intensity he's prepared to devote to this but look that would be true of anyone you know even if he you know even if he had said i want these are the things i want he'd still have had to do those things and i i do incline to the courage side of the ledger actually i do yeah great okay good stuff um right next question comes from luke in plymouth have the mats been as disturbed as i have by the french riots lots of police violence serious unrest very volatile political situation is it all about education or as i guess usually happens has it mutated into something broader and more dangerous what do you think matt uh thanks for that luke uh Yes, it's a very disturbing and interesting and multi-led story.

15:03I mean, for people who haven't been following it, these riots, which have been really gripping French society for quite a while now, were started over staff shortages in schools and really dilapidated facilities around the middle of September in Créteil, outside Paris, was the first incident. By the end of September, there were about 180 high schools involved. By October the 1st, there were more than 1 ,000, including more than 200 blockades, you know, clashes, fires, attacks on the police, who really responded very aggressively. and by the 4th of October there'd been 5 ,000 arrests and by the end of this week we've just finished there'd been close to 7 ,000 so that's a lot and a lot of them were minors you know under 18s and there was a very unpleasant incident where a 15 year old lost his hand because of the stun grenades so you know there's it's a there's definitely police um violence is an issue there i i mean one thing that fascinates me about this is that as is often the case and we've discussed this on the pod you know oftentimes um there are kind of two lanes in this there's a sort of mainstream story about education cuts and police violence that's sort of the way that the political elite in paris is dealing with it and those are both very important questions but then there's a much more um liquid and toxic story on social about islam and immigration and one of the reasons for that of course was that it started in deprived areas with there's a there's a disproportionate number of people who are the descendants of of migrant french people and so on and so there's a you know visually it had it was easy to present in that way even if it wasn't about that at all and it's been the case surprise surprise that some of the clips that have gone viral have are actually from another protest you know i mean it it is it's so obvious to say but you just have to be very very wary of anything you see on social media not to mention ai you know about its veracity um but the the sort of payoff on all this i think is that it does play into the forthcoming presidential elections in France, April, May will be the two rounds.

17:38Marine Le Pen is certainly the favourite for the first round and alarmingly is starting to poll highest on second round votes as well. Now, we'll see. This is early in the whole argument. But But what she and Jordan Bardella, a young sidekick, have done is frame this as a sort of order versus chaos story. And there's an interesting precedent for this, which is that back in May 68, where we all remember and have, I suppose, a quite romantic vision of Les Venements, you know, the great uprising. what actually happened was that de Gaulle who was in a real trough used that that kind of mood of panic amongst a lot of you know people outside Paris typical supporters of his to take his party which was in a bad spot and and build it into a landslide in the legislative elections in June that year so there is a kind of playbook on the French right for taking unrest which you know as you were mentioning the other day, Matt, you know, is quite common in France, you know, more so than here.

18:47And I think it's always wise, it's the original question, you know, to keep an eye on the multiple layers of narrative. And I think what's happening in France is very concerning for those of us who don't want to see, you know, any further advances of the populist rights in Europe or elsewhere. Yeah, I also did. I mean, that's fascinating, Matt, and you've explored that much more deeply than I could have done so thank you for that but one point that occurred to me in our conversations was I'll bet you there's some copycat activity over here at some point yeah yeah I'm sure there will be because you know ostensibly that face value story and there was a young woman being interviewed on Radio 4 at the beginning of this week just gone and basically she was saying you know well you know we've got we've got a riotous nature in France and you know the schools are falling to bits and this is what happens, you know, and was sort of treating it at that very shallow level.

19:46Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah, plenty. And that's a message that, you know, will not fall on barren ground here when people are feeling disaffected and pissed off about student loans and the state of teaching and, you know, the poverty of the infrastructure that we've got here as well. So definitely something to watch. It really is. Right, should we take a very quick break and come back? We've got some cracking questions, actually, for part two. So do join us on the other side.

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22:57Welcome back, dear listeners. This is the Two Mads Sunday morning Q &A brought to you by the wonderful subscribers of the New World magazine. So the next question is just from Susanna. If you could put one person in the cabinet who isn't an MP, who? Yeah, great question. Great question. Well, so I'll only pick one because I don't know, I suspect you might already have the other or one. You might have these two guys in mind. I don't know. And they're both men, both white men. No, I don't have either woman in mind. Okay, great. Okay, well, I'm going to throw two in then. So my first one would be, and this would be genuine and likely, yeah, would be Gordon Brown, who I think could be, you know, with the right sort of barriers around him.

23:43I can already sort of hear Alistair Campbell moaning with absolute, no, that's absolute nonsense.

23:53But I do think Gordon Brown has kind of emerged, you know, funnily enough, as has John Major as, you know, a genuine elder statesman with still with real ideas. Popular too. But popular, well, talking of popular, my other one would be Martin Lewis. Oh, yeah. If the whole thing is cost of living, then who better than to have Martin Lewis ranting at the end of the cabinet table saying, do more here, do more there. This is a scandal. These are ripoffs, you know, fixing stuff that is day-to-day ripoffs. I think that would be a great popular, not populist, a popular signal. It would be hugely popular.

24:36Yeah, right. Over to you. Well, my shout is it will never happen. But I think in times of urgency, it would be great if it did is Louise Casey. Because, you know, the thing about now Baroness Louise Casey for Blackstock, DBE, these names they get, you know, her great value to the state has been for more than 10 years. She's the great auditor. She's the great, you know, nonpartisan examiner and investigator of problems from Rotherham Council to brilliant, very even handed report on integration, which looked just as much at, you know, bigotry against Muslims as it is on Islamism and the problems of how do you integrate white nationalists?

25:23you know really good across the spectrum that was in 2016 she did the met you know coruscating report on the met after sarah everard's terrible murder to grooming gangs last year and now she's you know on the centerpiece of the burnham project at least for now which is um social care so she's a very important investigator so the argument against and she has privately always said this is look you know i don't want to be a politician i want to be i want to be what i am which is available as an even-handed, trusted person to look into things. And I get that. And I, you know, we would lose the chief national auditor if she went in.

26:04But I kind of feel that it's all hands on deck right now. And so I wouldn't be sorry. I'd be delighted if she was brought into a big role. I mean, imagine, you know, imagine her actually being put in charge of the Home Office, which has been a binfire of a department for a long time. Yeah. You know, that could be a transformative moment for the whole debate about immigration, integration and so on. I don't think it'll happen, but... It's a great shout, a great shout. Right, next question comes from Louise. Louise asks, I agree with you that Andy Burnham's speech was of enormous consequence, but possibly not the greatest speech in terms of rhetoric.

26:46what in your opinion is the best political speech in history and why well i i'm gonna give give one sort of which is obvious and then suggest a slightly uh left field one as well so my actual favorite speech ever is at lincoln's first inaugural um which was his a61 which is his appeal to avert the civil war didn't work um but that's the one which has we are not enemies but friends um the mystic chords of memory stretching from every battlefield and patriot grave to every living heart and hearthstone all over this broad land will yet swell the chorus of the union when again touched as surely they will be by the better angels of our nature wow um but everyone you know that that's kind of one of the obvious ones the one i wanted to mention which actually came into my mind because um last week i was lucky enough to see elsinore this amazing new movie about ian charleston who died of aids um playing hamlet at the national theater uh when he was you know when he was dying from aids gravely ill and it brought me back to the kind of um the intensity of that period of time and it reminded me in particular there's the great playwright now dead sadly and and and activist larry cramer is a great hero of mine great civil rights champion and he gave a speech you can watch it on youtube um it's he's talking at an aids forum in new york in october 91 and it it transcribed it looks terrible it's a bit like the great prescott john prescott speech in favor of omar you know if you look at it in in written down it doesn't make any sense at all but the way it's delivered is uh spectacular and he just they're all bickering over faction and detail and this treatment and that way and he just interrupts them and screams plague we are in the middle of a fucking plague 40 million infected people is a fucking plague and he goes on and and just says if they don't pull themselves together and he ends with we are as good as dead and there's silence and it's just how politics should be how activism should be and kramer was an incredible figure because he stood outside the establishment shouting at it he was a pain to multiple politicians presidents who expected his support and he wouldn't give it to them but oddly enough he because he he managed to get uh his message across to of all people anthony fauci he and fauci became friends and and they worked together on really important work on getting the medication pipeline going against HIV so I just thought I mentioned that because he's there's a risk always of these people that they get forgotten and he shouldn't be that's a that's a fantastic fantastic shout um well I I have two I mean one my favorite one um personally is um the excerpt of Theodore Roosevelt's Man in the Arena it's known the man in the arena speech well i mean it's a long speech he gave and this is just but a a few paragraphs from it and it but it is i mean it's the reason my eldest is called theodore is because of this speech and i i find it endlessly um sort of it has this great rehabilitative nature when you're feeling down you feel no i'm you know if i'm getting stick for something we're doing that's That's the nature of striving.

30:21But to answer the question, a combination of consequence, rhetoric, and everlasting power of change, I don't think you can beat the I Have a Dream speech by Martin Luther King, which I looked it up and counted the words, 1 ,667 words. I'm a pretty good sub-editor, right? and I went through it and there is not a single word you could sub out of that speech. It is sensational and it's so powerful because its rhetoric is soaring and beautiful, but it's so specific about the attacks he makes and naked the attacks he makes. I mean, one of the most, every paragraph of it has got a real zinger of a memorable.

31:11Yeah. I mean, one of the most famous, you know, I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will be judged not by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character. I have a dream that one day in Alabama, with its vicious racists, with its governor having his lips dripping with the words of interposition and nullification. One day right there in Alabama, little black boys and black girls will be able to join hands with little white boys and white girls as sisters and brothers. I have a dream today. I mean, it is absolutely amazing. It's beautiful and it's brutal.

31:50And yeah, that's a very good way of putting it. You know, it costs that guy his life, you know, because you're right. This is the power of words is that they have more power than anything when they are in the right order and with the right delivery. And I don't think you can beat I Have a Dream by Martin Luther King Jr. I agree. If people are interested, there's a there's a great book called the dream by a writer called drew hansen which is about just about the speech and how it came to be and you realize to your point matt that it was i mean what's amazing about when you watch it it it doesn't feel like off the cuff but it's there's no sense of a writer's room or a you know confection it is he is the speech but actually what was what's interesting is that because he was a man of greatness and and instinctive genius as well as intellectual depth he road tested a lot of it yeah and so this was the kind of culmination of years of you know getting it all in the right order and what you see and what we all remember and i think you're right it will be remembered forever it is i mean it is not stupid to compare it to pericles or Lincoln or Kennedy.

33:05Far from it. It's one of the top few. A great man. A great man. And also I think within that speech a lesson that things do need calling out specifically. With absolute clarity. I think there's a temptation in modern politics and maybe more so on the left to sort of glide over awkward statements you know, and not to confront brutal truths with clarity. And I think if you go back and you look at that speech in particular, the number of times where he specifically calls out people who will be absolutely punched in the face by his words, it's astonishing and it's courageous. Unbelievably brave. Right.

33:52So, next question. Sam in Stafford. Ah, I liked your answers to the films that flopped at the box office, but later became big hits. I wonder if the reverse is also true. Do you have films that you loved at the time that now make you cringe or worse? What do you think, Matt? That's great, I do. And I had to think long and hard, but the one that, so the film that I saw, it came out in 1991, about a musician. Absolutely, I was 20, what was I, 21, so very impressionable at the time, you know, And I'd say watching this film for about 30 times, which I did. Wow. I mean, just on repeat. Awesome. Changed me, you know, it definitely changed me.

34:38You know, and I took on, you know, I'm obsessed with Hemingway. I was a young teenager. I was obsessed with James Dean. And in my early 20s, I was obsessed with Jim Morrison because the film is The Doors by Oliver Stone. Oh, that's not sad. Well, you shouldn't be so tough on yourself. But listen, I watched it about a year ago and it is terrible. I mean, it's awful. You remain the lizard king of the new world, you know? But it is. It's just such a lousy movie. All the things that I remember it being brilliant, you know, the huge cinematic quality of it all. It's so cheesy. It's so corny. And even Val Kilmer, who God love him, you know, I thought.

35:23Great actor, yeah. brilliant actor but you watch i don't know what it's like i was watching two different films i look at it now i remember john peele funnily enough god bless his soul um saying that you know he was one of the people that introduced the doors to the british public and he was saying you know he was they were his favorite band for a long time and then he said but now i wouldn't put them in my top 100 and i sort of feel like like that has that's come to pass a little bit do you still like the doors i still like the doors do you know our great our creative director martin nichols who is the bass player in a cure tribute band brilliant a very good one called the incurables well they played a double act with a a band called the fire doors uh they were fantastic you know in the whole room well it was it was middle-aged men like me nodding along you know um i remember the look on the face of of one of the young doormen looking over at this crowd of sad white middle-aged men sort of all rocking away i don't know i i think the music i think the music still holds up i mean i think consider the opening scene of um apocalypse now without jim morris singing the end i mean that's pretty good anyway you know what's yours what's yours well it's a bit it's it's a bit more obvious but it's really just like i feel it's time for me to come out of the richard curtis closet as it were and and get this off my chest right which is no but i i think i I really need to state my case on love fucking actually.

36:52Right. Oh, my God. I fell hook, line and sinker for it in 2003 when it came out. Right. Blubbing like a baby, you know. And the whole image it had just kind of tickled every acupuncture spot I had. You know, it described a world in which everyone was liberal, lived in inexplicably large flats and houses in West London. racism and sexism had been conveniently solved no one had any money problems class was not an issue Hugh Grant was inexplicably prime minister standing up to Billy Bob Thornton the nasty US prime minister Joni Mitchell provided the soundtrack you know what more do you want Emma Thompson brilliant and actually and I'm really I'm really confessing to the public actually rather than attacking the film it was part of the problem um it's you know if you know we've talked about the london problem not the place but the mentality that burnham is trying to address and needs to be addressed right well if you were trying to explain to an extraterrestrial what the hell that meant you just sit down emperor tharg in front of love actually and say i'll see you in a couple of hours right and they come out and go fucking hell you've got to do something about that guy that does not work right so i think that you know i you know i i really did and there was a time and then and and it sort of came upon me in the last four or five years i watched it every christmas and thought oh it was nice then you know opening ceremony of the london olympics it was good wasn't it and all that and i thought no this is why this is everyone looked at it and thought we hate you right we hate you and i understand why and so i'm afraid i'm gonna to have to cut ties with love actually sorry people sad day sad day well listen folks um tell us tell us the films that that everyone loves but you hate and why that would be a great little section it'd be fun yeah i'd like to know and write in with any other questions and observations you've got for us please to twomats at tnepublishing.com there are still a few tickets left for alasdair campbell and michelle hussein at cadogan very few though you gotta i mean well Let's hope they're still there by the time you listen to this.

39:09We're going to move to dynamic pricing soon. Yes. I might get Eddie Hearn to promote the next one. Exactly. It couldn't have gone better. But, yeah, go to cadoganhall.com for those tickets while they're still there. It's going to be a great night, that. October 22. It'll be a lot of fun. Matt and I will both be there. We'll be there. So come and shake our hands and say hello. That would be lovely to see you. Subscribe to The New World. Go to thenewworld.co.uk forward slash twomats, number two, M-A-T-T-S. Thank you, as ever, to the third Matt. Matt Withers for producing the show. Thanks, Matt. And have a great week, everybody.

39:42We'll see you Thursday at the latest. Have a good one.

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