What do the riots in France really signal?

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1:54We'll talk about that anon. I did want to talk about this week's edition, though. It's a banger, folks. Well, it really is. I mean, mainly the main reason I want to talk about it. It's absolutely crammed full of brilliant writing by brilliant writers. But I have kind of achieved a lifetime ambition, which is to get Slavoj Zizek writing for the new one. He's writing. He's in. And it's thanks to you. By accident. You did one of these. Was it a how-to academy? I did a how-to with him and he beforehand, Slavoj said how much he loved the new world and would be interested in writing for us. I said, yes, I will talk to the boss and therefrom came a piece.

2:35We hope many more. I sort of say, I don't know if people are looking or listening, but I'm holding up the cover. Yes, those listening on audio means will have to imagine Mr. Kelly holding up. It's a bit like the black and white snooker commentary. Yes, and we're now holding up the copy of the magazine. But yeah, no, we've got Slavoj Žižek, Emily Maitlis, Nicky Wolf writing about Trump and Putin. It's a really amazing cover. The image is of an orange-faced Donald Trump in Red Square underneath St. Basil's with a fur gushing hat on and the headline Agent Orange. At the top, we've got an exclusive extract of the book of the week, Percivillians.

3:21And the moment. By Mr Campbell. And indeed, there's a nice big advert in the middle for non-subscribers. And if you're one of them, this is the moment to listen up, folks, because you can get yourself a signed copy of Percivillians when you take the plunge and subscribe and see what all the fuss is about and join Britain's fastest-growing political and cultural magazine. It's described as the best political and cultural magazine in the country by guess by none other than rory stewart so you know um they're all coming in folks so um do take the plunge and sign up get that free offer by going to the new world.co.uk forward slash two mats that's the number two m-a-t-t-s um and get your free signed copy of per civilians by alistair campbell and by the way there's i think maybe a dozen seats something like that left at the cadogan hall tomorrow night um thursday night where alistair will be discussing at length with michelle hussein the great bloomberg podcaster michelle hussein will be grilling alistair all about perseverance and matt and i will both be there i'll make a brief appearance on stage so you can throw wet lettuces and tomatoes at me and do whatever you like but we'll be there come along and say hello get one of the few remaining tickets at the cadogan hall website.

4:42Now, enough plug-a-rama. France has been on the edge for a long time. It really has. I mean, it's been going on for more than four weeks now, and not only France, I mean, Italy, we're recording this on Wednesday morning, and Italy, overnight, made the decision to deploy 500 soldiers to Milan, and in France, they're making preparations for the weekend. The Interior Minister Laurent Nunez said yesterday, Tuesday, that some military forces will be sent. It's a protest planned for this Saturday. So things are happening across the continent, particularly in France, but crucially, not only in France.

5:24There have already been about 10 ,000 arrests in France, and they're now starting to process the prosecutions. And worth saying, Matt, as well, I mean, just extra curfews in Paris. Oh, yeah. I mean, it's an amazing sentence to say. Yes. And disturbing. We had a very good piece in The New World about intervention from Russia and Iran. I should flag that up. It's in the Simon's. It's a really good piece. Emma Kate, who has lived in Paris 10 years, knows that place inside out. And if you do want a nuanced view, I know it's really good. You know, there are a lot of very polarized views around. Emma Kate is on the ground, knows that country better than most French people and has delivered a brilliant piece of analysis in this week's New World, which is very well reading and chilling as well.

6:21Yes, it is, because, I mean, it points to this kind of this this constant malicious ignition from outside. the problem I suppose as well though is that would that it were just ignition unfortunately it would appear that the tinder is dry in France and not only in France and and I suppose the question and I think I mean you alluded to just now you know is what do what do we make of this tinder what does it say and what doesn't it say and I think of course as is often the case when you have a story of this consequence everyone to a certain extent no one is free of it goes back to their corners and and you know exerts their priors and i mean what there have been some i think there have been some clangers like i think the bbc constantly framing this as an opportunistic minority well that's probably true in terms of numbers but it's opportunistic minorities unfortunately that shape history i mean the bolsheviks were an opportunistic minority and the jacobins are an opportunistic minority so it doesn't get you out of the fact that yes i I mean, this did start off as a as a series of complaints about education policy, but just describing it as a series of protests about public policy that has sort of got out of hand, I think is phony consolation.

7:40There is something very wrong here. The other thing I think the other narrative, which is often true when France kicks off, but isn't true in this case, is it's just France being France. You know, they are a bit frisky and they have a tendency on left and right to resort to sometimes violent protests. But this has been spreading all over Europe, you know, Tehran and Milan, Brussels, Lisbon, Madrid, not on this scale we've seen across France, but it is there. And I think that it's really important to not just reduce this to a sort of, well, you know, if only Macron announced a big spending package on Sunday night, everything would be OK.

8:22this is deeper than that it's a much deeper malaise that's right and I feel there is so much nuance present here just to point to Instagram posts and say it's just marauding gangs many phony by the way yes well I've seen Instagram provocateurs sent in to kick things off with a nod and a wink to the police waiting to absolutely You know, so, I mean, the layers in this story are unbelievable, but it is hard to. Somebody said to me the other day, you know, this is this is not 68. It's not 1934. This is something much deeper, a much broader malaise. And in many ways, it's a distraction that it's kicked off in France because it gives everybody the result, the excuse to say, oh, it's exactly.

9:14Yeah. This is what it's just. Yeah. Or the gilets jaunes. Or de gelé jeune. Yeah, they may be the first to perk up and to react. The deeper concern and the deeper problem is there is a structural foundational malaise in Europe at play now. And whether the bigger question, in fact, the only question really is what government on the progressive side has got the balls to deal with the issues and to say and confront the challenges that this this is just emblematic of, I think. I think you're absolutely right. I mean, I think the way to look at it in terms of what's happening in France is treat France as the Silicon Valley of rioting.

9:57Right. You know what? You know, they innovate, but it doesn't stop there. And so we should watch and learn, I suppose. I mean, I think, you know, look, one thing I think one should put to bed, because I just don't think it's true, is needless to say, Trump and Vance and now followed up by Goodwin and others. as Matt Goodwin and here, have projected their own, you know, preoccupations onto this. So you had Trump at a rally on Monday saying, you know, it's all about immigration. It's all about Islam, Islamism. Van saying it's all the fault of Western liberals importing the third world into France and so on.

10:40And I was actually quite disappointed because she's been trying recently to sort of draw a line between herself and Reform UK, Kemi Baden-Ock, more or less saying a kind of version of Enoch Powell speak, which is, I don't want us to end up how like France is ending up with so much civil unrest. Now, it's a bad plan when a main party leader effectively says, if we don't do the following, there'll be violence, right? That's not a statesmanlike thing to do. In any case, I don't think it's the case. I mean, we can get on to, I think there's a sort of broad nihilism at play here which includes people of all ethnicities to be honest i think it's a it's a distraction to focus upon ethnicity or or ancestry in this case it's you know in a sense the the those of immigrant background are being very french here you know they are they're doing what what people of all of all ethnicities are doing and so i think that that focus is is leading us astray i think you just posed the absolutely key question which is is there a good progressive response to this because what you're seeing in the in french discourse is macron really um looking like a dead man walking which he is he's a lame duck president he's approaching the end of his second term but the the pace is being set by jean-luc milleron of the left, who is very careful in his language about what he says about acts of violence, but loving, surfing the wave of the protests.

12:19And it's sort of his whole idea of a new France. And he talks about the creationization, the great big melting pot of a new France that will suit him. and on the other end of the chat, Le Pen and Jordan Badea, her sidekick, who's now comfortably ahead in the polls, even in the second round of presidential contest next April, May. And Le Pen has been very clever, as we actually discussed on the pod about 10 days ago, which is in her statement, she didn't go hard on immigration. She went hard on order. And that's their play, which is if you keep voting for centrist governments that are held together by sort of coalitions, you'll just get paralysis leading to chaos.

13:14You need the shock therapy of the Front National. And that's dangerous. And so this leads into, well, you know, what is the answer? And I think that's why it sort of all knits together with the only place really in the world where there is at least sort of someone who is trying to do this is, in fact, the UK, which is Andy Burnham is trying. And next week's budget will be the first real rubber hits the road test of that, not rhetoric, but actual policy of whether he does have a grand plan to deal with what's going on. Because whilst France and Italy and so on are different from the UK, there are enough contiguities that I think, you know, he should be, and I'm sure he is, watching this with some concern.

14:01Yes, I know. I agree completely. And it feels like it's a sort of we're in potentially in a in a period of time here where things could go either way, because these things do catch. They are contagious. What's interesting to me is Farage has not been that much on the front foot about this, but people like Matt Goodwin clearly. Very much so. Yeah, very much so. And, you know, they'll be looking at, you know, whatever their doctrinal beliefs are. They'll be looking at Marine Le Pen sitting there not having to work at all, really. Instagram, social media doing all of her campaigning for her. And as you say, sitting back and saying, told you so.

14:41Look, here's the problem. and Macron really not living up to the moment at all, I don't think. No, not at all, no. I mean, absent without leave, really. Well, literally absent for some of it. He was in the Middle East. Should have been in Limoges, should have been on the front line, should have been visible in a way that, I suppose, Starmer's finest moment after Southport, you know, right on the front of it, visibly on top of it. Macron has not been that. And unfortunately for us, Macron is symbolic of of grand centrist. Yes. And I also think people now are to a malaise. But yes, Burnham is different, I think.

15:25I think different. Yeah. And I think that in every way, I mean, he doesn't have to name them. But I think Burnham has to keep being clear that he is not that, you know, he is not a technocratic, you know, school of administration. kind of politician but to be fair i i don't think he's ever suggested he is because i think what this shows we're up against and and i think this is under reported really is you know that it's either framed as um the state needs to do more um well you know state spending in france is nearly 60 percent of gdp so i think that just saying throw more money at the problem alone is not the answer and again i don't think berlin believes that but at the same time saying oh it's all just foreigners and muslims and jihadis it doesn't capture it either because i what i think you have here is a generation that doesn't have any allegiance and it's kind of nihilistic and you see it across on both sides of the atlantic i mean i mean one one very early or very important aspect of it was the glee around luigi mangioni you know alleged killer of brian thompson the healthcare ceo and then the sort of cult of nick fuentes the neo-nazi has a whole army of people they call themselves groopers and they are neo-nazis but if it's possible to be worse they are because they're as happy to say stalin is great you know they just want to burn the world down and they admire ted kaczynski the unibomber right they call themselves ted pilled and their heroes are they're all movie people they're uh patrick bateman in american psycho and tyler durden in fight club and the joker in the dark knight you know very it's a very fictional world then have it very dangerously absent how many of them are though i think well not necessarily that many but this is a problem is it's very hard to catch these kind of moments in polls because as as i sort of implying earlier it doesn't take many most revolutionary moments most real moments of upheaval are not caused by you know 52 percent of young people suddenly becoming mobilized and radicalized they come from intensity of action and crucially i think nowadays by images and spectacles so while the bbc was talking about education policy and protractors in the classroom and a shocking shortage of pencil cases you know the images that are blasting around the world are limoges town hall going up in flames that's an image that everyone can understand and that very viral image of a of a young white lady at the uh the broken glass of a supermarket in paris fleeting with the looters stop going in and they just carry they just ignore her just go in those two images i think sealed the the way this is perceived you know and and so numerically perhaps not that many but i think on the quite on that question more than is a generally allowed in the conversation and that generational feeling of no one cares about me so why should i care about them I think there is a spectrum of behavior which goes from the merely disillusioned to those who are ready to be violent in situations like this.

18:51And that is, broadly speaking, the problem, which is why the NEETS issue is so important. Tell me what is the difference? And I think there is a big difference, but I'd like to try and articulate it together. What is the difference between what's happening in Paris now and what happened in London in 2011 in that sort of riots? time as much as anything um i mean i think as i was talking to you earlier and i wrote a little bit about this when i did a book on the coalition and 2011 mystified um both coalition ministers and labor david lammy did a lot of work on uh on this and and they there was a lot of puzzlement on both sides because it was in the end just looting really it was you know taking a wave of anger and turning it into a retail opportunity.

19:40And we should remind people it was sparked by the death of Mark Duggan in Tottenham. And police shot him. And it started very small and local. Yes, spread across the country. And then very rapidly there was this conflagration, wasn't it? Very rapidly and very rapidly. and politicians, you know, all over the Europe and America rushing back, you know, to attend Cobra. It was a moment where the earth trembled, but it receded as quickly as it had arisen because there was no plan. There was no one to lead them. And that's the difference, I think, is that, you know, in the end, actually, I was living in Hangley at the time and it was it was both a relief and heartbreaking to see that the riots there stopped almost literally at what you might call the liminal area between the working class and middle class areas so they they looted JD Sports and you know all the all the shops around where they lived but they didn't come into the village a bit which was both personally a massive relief but also a sign of of the limitations of of what was going on at the time and you know looking at it i remember researching it a little bit and and there was a sense among some of the people that were interviewed afterwards who'd taken part that they could have gone further but it had just turned into an opportunity to you know take lots of trainers and tracksuits and so on um and i think that but i think that now there is there are people on i mean the online space has changed beyond recognition in those 15 years.

21:25And also the people who are willing to throw out mixed up, mashed up ideologies to grab people who feel no allegiance to anything has changed radically. And there are a lot of them. I mean, I don't want to call them coalitions, but, you know, if you want to march, if you want to riot in the name of jihad, you can. If you want to march in the name of the far right, you can. if you want to march in the name of um you know hard trotskyism you can there's someone online who will say here i am meet me at this corner but it's it's it's a mistake i think to you know the sort of 1984 thing of saying oh this is agents of emmanuel goldstein it's not i mean these are these are deep internal convulsions and um there is a generation arising i think of which this is the very sharp end that don't understand why that you know allegiance is everything and i don't mean allegiance to the flag or the crown or anything old-fashioned like that i just mean why should i obey the rules of normal society when normal society offers me nothing you know so oddly enough it's the opposite of rowing about education policy which is in fact a perfectly healthy row within a civilized society to have you know my school's no good what are you going to do about it if it would that it was just that yeah there's another dimension as well which kind of compounds that with emma k talks about the sort of red green alliance so you've got the hard left who feel infuriated and let down and disaffected by um society right now but it's also compounded by the gaza protesters who yeah equally are feeling you know chronically enraged by what's happening in the Middle East and have become of of a mindset where something has to happen you know they are a protesting yes group and they and and they have totally different agendas but they are they've come together and and also oddly of course with uh both uh outright thuggery as a as a group that you can identify social media far-right activists as a group that you can identify And this whole system, this whole kind of group crowding of violent protest coming together, the students who started this all have become totally marginal to it in many ways.

23:50But then we're vulnerable to the social media influence, not only of the messaging from the people, the activists involved, but also external actors, Iran, Russia, et cetera, et cetera. and it does feel like a problem to which i mean i i feel sorry for a government in a sense because the the forces arrayed against ordered society right now are immense yes no absolutely i and i think on the on the palestinian dimension i mean i was saying to you the other day that i if i was a ghazan i wouldn't be best pleased by any of this because i think that there's an extent and Well, no, I do think this in which, you know, in total contrast to, let's say, you know, some pensioner who's willing to be arrested in because they support Palestine action.

24:40That is an act of support. I think that the Palestinian flag and the kefir, often worn totally honorably and because people support those things, has also become a bit like the peace flag and the Shea hat or the Shea t-shirt or the Mao cap in the 60s. It's become the sort of convergence, memorabilia, paraphernalia of whatever this movement is. And a lot of people just wear those things, wave that flag because it's the branding. And the brand is getting detached from the ideals below it. Now, just to be clear, I'm not saying everyone who holds aloft the flag doesn't care about the people of Gaza.

25:25Not the case at all. What I mean is that equally, every time you see someone with that flag doing something bad, it's not because you can't necessarily blame the Palestinian cause for it. You see what I'm saying? Not at all. But I completely get what you're saying. It has become the motif. Yeah, it's the gathering point. But but nevertheless, it's the motif does sit on top of some deep rooted disaffection that that is totally valid for, you know, yes, you know, not only are people quite rightly, in my view, enraged by what's happening in Gaza and has happened in Gaza. but also the you know you've got that at one end of the spectrum sort of geopolitical war going on and you know call it genocide if as some people will do but then you've got the simple problem of a million people in this country alone who've got no prospective job or ever owning their own yes you know i mean in a sense in this in this mix um it's the people who have beliefs that i'm least worried about in the sense that, you know, if you are, let's say, take the Palestinian case, you know, if you are, you know, legitimately worried about what's going on in the Middle East, as huge numbers of people are, understandably.

26:44Well, at least there's a there's a sort of route potentially to something being done about this. What worries me about the generality of this is that these people are not actually asking for anything, really, a lot of them. they're just expressing their absolute visceral fury and had enoughness of the whole system i mean that's what i think the bit that really scares me is that there's a signal in all of this which we should we must pay attention to amid the noise which is in this is a generational cry which says we don't believe in the liberal order anymore right we don't you know you've had your chance it's a long time since the war and you we keep you know we keep asking you and you just don't deliver macron whoever it is and you know whatever comes next this isn't enough and i think macron absolutely played into that narrative with his statement and that is scary because you know there's a lot of um baby to be thrown out with the bathwater of the of the liberal order i mean you Before getting rid of it, let's be very clear what the alternatives are.

27:56But I do think what's happening across Europe, I mean, just to go back to your question about 2011, 2016, think how different Europe is now to the Europe of the Brexit referendum and radically different. You've got France, possibly about to elect Le Pen as president, Germany dealing with the AFD Vox on the shoulder of Spanish government you know even Maloney's government you know trembling Maloney looking like a sort of censor right rather than the it's very interesting that isn't it Matt five years ago we would have said Maloney really hard right and now looking like she's being outflanked by the real hard right Exactly.

28:45And of course, underpinning all this, and I flick at this in my piece in the New World this week, which is we need to be really focused in the UK and in Europe generally on the fact that Trump's almost certainly very bad performance in the midterms on November the 3rd. and possibly the end of the Reform UK ascendancy, enchalá, does not mean that this is all over. I mean, one of the things that Le Pen... Le Pen's played a very clever game because one of the things that she did a while ago, and I thought, oh, what's going on here? And she started to distance herself from Trump. She's very canny.

29:25She obviously thought that he was getting bored and sloppy and being in any way associated with him was a bad plan. And so you very rarely have heard her during Trump 2. pay much by way of allegiance to maloney's been much closer to trump and now they've fallen out and i think that my point is really there was a point most obviously the case when vance came over early in 25 and went to munich and and and um gave everyone a telling off and then went to the afd and it looked like there was a sort of maga international being built and one thought that at the time i thought that the corollary of that would be that well they're making a bit of a bit a bet here because if it doesn't work out they fall too well maga is in desperate trouble now and they're not falling you know in other words the populist right precedes trump i mean the le pen family has been at this in the 70s yeah and it will outlast him that's and i think that's a really important thing to sort of brace ourselves for before the ewok dancing begins on november the fourth.

30:34Yes, dude. Well, I'll tell you what, let's on the image of Ewok dancing. Let's take a short break and come back and think about some of the issues that are really driving all of this.

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34:34Welcome back, dear listeners. This is the Two Mattes podcast brought to you by the wonderful subscribers of the New World magazine. Do join them. Matt, immigration, obviously integration, society, these are themes that are not going away and nobody seems to have any answer to them. Is this one of the things that Andy Burnham is going to have to really wrestle with if he's going to present an image of what Britain is in the future? Because it seems like France is one country that has attempted to define a sense of Frenchness, you know, secular society. And, you know, it clearly has not made any real difference in French society.

35:26In fact, if anything, it's aggravated tensions. And I'm just wondering, what is the way, do you think, that politicians can start to really get to grips with the problems that mass migrations have legitimately caused? Well, I think that there's an issue. I mean, I'm a stuck record in my fanboying of Louise Casey. But I do think her 2016 report on integration, which I do, it's available online. Do read it. business it's it's actually one of the most important statements of public policy i think for the last 20 years and it was completely ignored at the time you know i mean just it literally was just welcomed thank you put on the shelf forgotten but it's it's a model of of of exactly what you're asking for that because what it does is it says look there is a huge problem of integration and people liberals in particular have recoiled from dealing with it because they're terrified of being accused of racism or or you know anti-muslim bigotry but she says that's a silly way to look at it because in fact the problem of integration is not again to what we were saying earlier is not ethnicity or religion specific it's across the spectrum you know she says we need to look at the why are white nationalists not integrating as much in the same breath so we're looking at why are kids you know on the muslim side of the street being attracted and radicalized into the jihadi space you know it's the same question why is it that the the appeal of living in a pluralist british society doesn't capture either of them and if you go that way you're not saying you know white establishment muslim problem right and i think that's or you know um ethnic problem however you were you know because i think that has been from the rape gang story scandal onwards that has been the problem in terms of psychological paralysis has been yeah but how do we actually do this without looking like hitler and i think that is the way which is don't even i mean you have to in some of the granular work you have to be specific but and i actually do think i'm not just being saying this strategically i think this is actually the heart of the problem which is this is not this is across the piece you know that that if this happens tomorrow in the cities of the UK, it won't just be brown and black faces you see on the screen.

38:00Far from it. This is a, in fact, the majority won't be. This is a, it's more better seen in generational terms. And so I think one way that Burnham, particularly with his emphasis upon place and devolution and the forgotten parts of the UK and so on, is well placed if he wants to take the leap, and it is a leap, can say part of the, you know, my whole, you know, strategy is going to be making demands. And I use that word, you know, demands upon young people, but also in return for an offer that says you have to behave in a certain way. You have to. And if you don't, we will come down on you hard.

38:40But we also recognize that one of the reasons that you, you know, you feel alienated, you feel isolated, you feel that there is no prospect for you of having a family, of having a home of your own, you know, home of your own, you can still live with the parents in many cases. We get it. You know, the neat thing which we've, I think the new world has really been right in emphasising is one of the sort of first policy aspects of this. But there are a whole lot of others. And I think that's a route into this, which is you can't drain any question entirely of religion and ethnicity because that's pluralism.

39:14But what you mustn't do is make it binary you know sort of nice middle class white liberals telling um you know first or second generation um muslim immigrants in in towns and communities around the country how to live that alone is is obviously a you know a sketchy and b not going to work this has to be across the spectrum and i think he is he could yeah i think that's a brilliant way of framing it that it's a it's about a generational integration yeah much as you know the the verticals of whatever we believe or how what color our skin is or where we came from but the biggest divide is generational and also and and this you know we're talking about integrating and i think the risk for me and i'm very very curious as to how they're going to play this is that if you're a young person you're going to feel talked at a lot I think in the next few months you're going to be told by an older generation you're going to cut your welfare but you've got to get a job you've got to do this you've got to do that and it's going to feel it will feel to a lot of people oppressive and unempathetic I think and the I think the older generation almost has to integrate into a younger mindset as well yes that's a brilliant way yeah I agree the way around that's a really good point We have got to imagine what would how does it feel to be our children, you know, in this world?

40:42Bloody miserable in many cases. And yes, and yeah, you're right. What would what would we ask of our parents in these circumstances? And we've got to be prepared to give something, I think. And and this is where I guess it coming around to the stories around, you know, that we're both. You know, I've seen a question come in for the Sunday's Q &A. So I don't want to sort of go too exhaustively into this. But if, for instance, John Healy isn't going to do anything on capital gains tax or, you know, wealth tax of this older generation, I think, again, the message to a young person in this country is you're full of talk and all of the all of the onus is on me.

41:26You're you're not taking any of the hits generationally yourselves. And I think that that could trip this government up if it's not careful. Yeah, I think you've just made me entirely modify my whole view of integration, Matt, which is that's a brilliant point, which is we need to integrate too. And I mean, I think we've both sort of talked about some of the things that might be done in that capacity without necessarily naming it that. and I think you're right, it is that, which is, I think we were the last generation of what was called the property-owning democracy, you know, which is, you know, in the 80s, it became radically easier to buy a house, and it was affordable for people on a relatively, you know, modest income, and one of the ways Thatcher kept winning was, and it was a pretty bleak way of doing it, was the council house revolution which was take social housing and make it purchasable at relatively low cost don't replace the social housing which was the wicked bit of it um but in the 80s and 90s a lot of people are you know people like us included bought their first properties and away they went now scroll forward to the 2020s they are you know general i generalize hugely sitting on unearned wealth yeah which is untaxed um or renting it out themselves they've become or renting it out you know you know considerable gain um while gen z and older are unable to pay their rent just about let alone put a safe for a deposit to buy a first property yeah so the the first thing is we have and more to the point we are also living longer so our relationship with our property in terms of social care is going to have to change so that's two things i think that the um the way in which the the triple lock is treated as some sort of um holy territory has been deranged i mean look i i think you know it's first of all it's crazy that it still exists and even his modification of it is quite modest i hope it's the first step secondly it should of course be progressive you know obviously i don't want to take any money from people who are in need but it's insane that people who have private pension arrangements and so on get the same from the state pen i mean this is ridiculousness and um so that's just one small thing but all sorts of other things like here comes i mean this is a just a case case study but here comes a massive incoming debate about the bbc and how it's paid for and i've said it before and i know you know you're of a similar mind which is just let everyone under 35 or similar off the tv license or whatever the mandatory fee is it's got to stay mandatory because otherwise it doesn't work you have to have a levy that everyone has to pay but i don't see why anyone of that age given the struggles they're facing should have to pony up 140 quid a year and i think it's fine to charge people like us 500 quid a year or what i don't know but all i'm saying is That generational integration, which I'm now going to Nick and write down on my desk, is really good.

44:48Yeah, it's like it's a cross social demand. It's a very good way of framing it. And it will be unpopular with the old because they like and by the old, I mean people over 50 because they like the fact that they've saved. They don't think that people have. I buy all their arguments, which is, you know, I've paid for my pension. Why shouldn't I get it? I get that. But there is a, this is, I think this gets to the bone of where we are, which is that there are deeper, more foundational problems that are not going to be addressed by everybody saying, well, that's not fair. Somebody has to bite the bullet, rip the plaster off and say things are screwed right now.

45:28And I'll tell you the thing that made me worry a little bit about the mindset. And this is so trivial that, but still, I think it's indicative. there was a story yesterday uh one of Andy Burnham's um you know the small things that are going to make a difference to people's lives and procession of little announcements and it was about um playing music on buses and trains right playing music of course it's brilliant yeah but you know what I thought I thought well who who do you now sound like you sound like me talking to my kids you know in a in a very kind of grating paternalistic way turn that down and really who plays bus music openly on buses and kids do people of our generation don't do it and so i think they have got to be so aware that there's a younger and if they're going to avoid the generational over spilling into violence and anger that we've seen in France they are going to have to be so aware of every message they put out of how does this sound to a young person who is already feeling that this nation is letting them down massively and if it and if your message is oh and turn your bloody music down no they're going to think shut up you twat to your point why do you think they are playing their music in a carriage they're playing their music because they're already saying fuck off right that's the point you know they're not they're not stupid they know how irritating it is that's why they're doing it yes you know why are they talking in the movies because it's irritating they are saying subconsciously perhaps i don't necessarily mean this is something they've discussed before going into the view bromley uh to name but one cinema um you know uh is yeah we know all you middle-aged people sitting at the back in the comfy seats expect quiet while you're watching tarkovsky but we don't care right because we're going to talk control isn't it of assertion of self-assertion you know if people are powerless they will reach for any power and we saw this in the 70s and we saw this in the riots of the 80s and a bit in 2011.

47:46And the risk is that now we will see it across Europe and the UK, but there are vectors in electoral politics and the politics just below electoral politics that will now sweep it up. And the reason that this sort of integration strategy is so important is that what does worry me is that this whole kind of spectrum of nihilism and lost allegiance can be divided into parcels you know if you're a tommy robinson if you're a danny tomo if you're a jihadi you can if you're a far left extremist you can get your chunk of that take them aside and say the rest of them are the problem you know they're the ones of the problem you're great i mean we know from the you know that it is it is dangerous always to compare to the 1930s but that is what happened in weimar which was there was the far left and the far right and the far right one yeah you know but there were a lot of people marching for the far left because you know hannah arent is brilliant on this is that if you take a uh a citizenry that is lonely atomized in despair it's very easy to get gangs out of it that can do anything and that's exactly what happened and i'm not saying that you know we're there we're not it's different it's always different yeah but there are lessons yeah you know if we don't bring people together to your point just to finish the point is that you're absolutely right there is a danger of sounding like you know man shouting get off my lawn right if you make a demand for a norm which is no in a decent society we don't blast out music in a train carriage full of exhausted commuters there also has to be the other shoe has to drop which is to say and the reason we don't have this is that i want you to be part of a society of which you are a welcome member and here is the the route map to how you're going to have a good life and that's the missing bit yeah i know i agree completely and i just i do think there is a risk that the messaging and and we'll see this solidify in the budget next week next week but i do think there is a risk that the messaging is not going through that filter which is to say how are the people we're talking about going to hear this and you know when they're talking about we're going to cut your benefits but we're going to give you help to train um that's great but they've got to talk about it really from from the perspective of of the people on the receiving end of that not from the perspective of the the middle-aged middle-class voter who is worried about welfare which is another whole topic you know it is a consensus that welfare is out of control that's fine but they've got to be very clever about finding a way of explaining how they're going to cut welfare but produce a better reality for the people who are on the receiving end of it and we i think our generation has to accept that we have had it far too good for too long very very much and we've screwed it up for this coming generation across the bloody board economically socially climate wise you know we have not produced it's it's now become a cliche to say this is the first generation that are going to be worse off that's true though this generation it's a cliche and it's true that's why it's a cliche and that's right and and we've got to you know in accepting that truth there's got to be a consequence for us we can't just shrug and say oh well sorry about that but you know turn off your bloody speaker phone it's got no no indeed indeed got to be much more than that so exactly to that um when i heard this morning that the the jack the jack door um field had been okayed for production um i was just made on that ground actually which is i hear all the arguments about, well, it won't reduce the energy price.

51:58At least they're admitting that at last because they were suggesting at one point that it would reduce prices. But now they're saying it'll bring tax revenue up because of all the jobs and the charges on the producer and that it will improve energy security. Although that is a very weak argument, I mean, given the amount of fuel and you'd have to invoke the Energy Act of 1976. I mean, this is very distant thinking. But leaving all that aside, if I was a reasonably, you know, even slightly politically interested 19 year old, 25 year old, whatever. And I heard that I thought, thanks a lot, because what you're basically saying is in order to make your postponement of the net zero, because that's what it is, a little easier.

52:49and in order to keep maybe a seat in Scotland, let's be honest, you're willing to sell a bit of my future. You know, all these promises about renewables, you know, they're now talking about, in other words, the euphemism I hate mentioned on the Q &A last Sunday, a journey. They've now described being on a journey to renewables. No, you know, it's no longer the time to be on a journey to renewables. It's time to be there. And again, if you want to persuade the young that you care about them, you can't keep talking about it's what shape the transition takes. You know, we've known about this for more than 30 years.

53:31Yeah. And we're still really not doing anything like enough. And I think for one of the early decisions, you know, I'm basically still pro-Burnham. I really have, you know, really I'm hoping that next week's budget is great. But for one of the early decisions of his very savvy premiership, he knows about signals. He knows about messaging. So what sort of message does he send to the people you're talking about, Matt, by saying, yep, drill, baby, drill? Yeah. Yeah. Listen, Thelma and Louise are on a bloody journey. You know, sometimes you've just got to you've got to turn the car around. that's and easy an easy rider ends with a bit of a journey doesn't it to to age me myself a bit more yeah right but i think you have to okay but you know you just have to the reason i think jackdaw would have been great is that at relatively low cost because this is going to make about they've calculated about 246 million for the treasury in total in total yeah it's nothing surrounding error in budget terms they could have said you know what we're going to stop this and And Burnham could have gone up to the community and done a speech and said, I know you're disappointed, but this is this is a crossroads, fellas, you know, and ladies.

54:45And we have to make a choice on behalf of the people who have not are not yet born. These are the these are the contradictions and the paradoxes. And these are the difficult decisions that he's going to have to start wrestling with. And he's wrestling with. I'm sure I'm just like he knows all this. I just hope and I hope it deeply someone said to me he hasn't got the guts you can tell he's got the guts some well but there is a view out there and we'll find out that he hasn't got the guts and he's a people pleaser and there's a lot of presentation and there isn't a huge amount of depth all I can say is that I'm banking on that being wrong because if it is wrong then fast forward six months 12 months i think you know mac bloody goodwin might be right maybe it will come here the writing of friends you know the the difference i think is that whenever we were having our many doom conversations about keir starmer i wasn't always sure i really wasn't whether if he'd been sort of on the pod with us you know live from downing street with his resting judge face on the screen um would would he have really understood what we were on about yeah now there's absolutely nothing we've said in this podcast that annie burnham would not at least in in in principle agree with and probably has already thought i'm confident of that what i don't know and no one can know until he does it because that's the nature of agency and decision is whether he's willing to take the big, bold strokes and whether he's willing to take them pretty fast, because I don't doubt his commitment to radical change in due course.

56:29He's already made a series of undertakings that are huge. I mean, the social care revolution, the housing revolution, Europe, you know, this is a guy who, at least in principle, wants to do big, bold things. what i don't know and next week the budget will be the first practical granular clue is does he understand how urgent it is i don't know i genuinely don't know yeah well we'll get clues next week and by the way for more than this yeah next week we'll be doing a a special straight after the budget um with um well with some of these answers uh questions maybe answered a little bit so that will be coming uh i'll be up in manchester you'll be down in london um not that you'll be up at europe's gap at two mats north and i'll be i'll be down at two mats off whitehall because we we believe in um because we're followers not leaders yes and also because we we're a podcast we believe in the podcasting place right yes Right, so join us next Wednesday for that.

57:38But sooner than that, join us on Sunday for our regular Sunday edition Q &A, the most popular show we do, which I always think I love it that more of you listen to the Sunday one than, well, I love it that you're listening. But I do think if by chance you know somebody who just listens to the Sunday one, we'll give them a nudge and tell them that this one's even better. But there we go. sign up to the new world and get a free copy of that other podcasting legend alistair campbell's new book per civilians you can get that by going to the new world.co.uk forward slash two mats number two m-a-t-t-s send in your questions please to two mats at t-n-e-publishing.com that's the number two m-a-t-t-s t-n-e-publishing.com maybe we'll see you at cadogan hall tomorrow night Let's hope so.

58:27That would be a treat. A few tickets still on sale at Cadogan Hall's website. It's going to be great. It will be great fun. And thank you to the third Matt, Matt Withers, for producing the show. Thanks, Matt. And until Sunday, it's... Goodbye from me. It is, and it's goodbye from him. Goodbye. Bye.

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