426 - Coaching Veterinarian on How to Bring Up Issues

0:00Ten years ago, I thought people came to conferences for information. I was wrong. You can Google almost any answer in 30 seconds while hiding in a supply closet. What you can't Google is skill. Skill is having hard conversation when you're exhausted, short-staffed, and the person across from you is upset. And that only comes from practicing with people who will tell you the truth when you miss. That's what Uncharted is. On Friday, January 15th in Orlando, the day before VMX opens, we're celebrating 10 years with a one-day conference built around leaders practicing hard things together. You'll get Dr.

0:37Peter Weinstein, the Uncharted team, and about a dozen mic drop talks from people in the community, people you know like Dr. Phil Richmond and Dr. Caitlin DeWild. I'm not going to tell you it'll be easy because it won't. But if you want to do the work alongside people who get it, come and join us. details are at unchartedvet.com register today don't miss your chance welcome back to another episode of the uncharted veterinary podcast i am your host maria prida and i'm sitting down today with dr andy work to talk about coaching we got an excellent mail back from a practice owner who has an associate veterinarian that has been bringing up a lot of issues regarding the practice itself but in the process the way that they bring it up is a little bit harsh with the team.

1:20They're also seeing some of the old patterns. This associate veterinarian came to this practice specifically for better work-life balance, but they're seeing that the associate is now staying late. The way that they're trying to update the protocols is coming off the wrong way, and they, in general, just need guidance and advice on how to have this coaching conversation. I loved everything about this mailbag. This practice owner, you could tell, has been an uncharted listener for a long time. They know the communication style. They know the motivation. They know exactly what they want to change.

1:48And so Andy and I talk a lot about separating the behavior from the personality. We talk a lot about how to have the coaching conversation. We talk a lot about feedback in general and how to prepare this associate for success. So if you have found yourself in a similar situation, you're going to want to saddle up and tune in so we can get into this episode. And now, the Uncharted podcast.

2:13How are you doing, Andy? How's your... How's the week done? We're recording this on Monday, and it is a Monday-est Monday that I have seen in a while. What makes a Monday-est Monday? Because I feel like I do not support the Monday hate that everybody, I feel like, already has. I don't hate. Like, I honestly don't hate Monday. I really don't. A lot of people do. You show up for pets every day. It's because care is your calling, and it's ours, too. We know it's what drives you to make a difference in the health and well-being of every pet. That's because at Zoetis, hundreds of veterinarians are part of our team, too.

2:53Working with you to provide science-backed medicines, technology, and practical support to help elevate your standard of care. Learn more at careisyourcalling.com. It's like the start of the week and they're like, London. I really love my job. You know what I mean? I guess that's true. I love the work that we do. And honestly, I will tell you, one of the things that has helped me is like, I've done a better job of unplugging in the weekends, which is not true right now. But usually I do a good job of unplugging the weekend and like making myself not work so that when Monday comes around, I'm like chomping at the bit.

3:28I'm like, hey, I got stuff to do. I've got things I want to get accomplished. I am excited to see people. I'm like, hey, this is what we're working on. This is what we're doing. This is the changes that we're making. How's things been going? And then also, I just feel like kind of in my sort of workflow as a leader, I just find it's super productive to huddle the team together first thing on Monday and be like, guys, this is the plan for the week. This is what we're going. What do you need from me? What obstacles do you need removed? And I think people come in with a fresh, like clear mindset.

4:00There's enthusiasm around the start of the week. And some people are like, this is not at all how Monday's go for me. But it is how it goes for me. And so, but that puts a lot on me. So I have to hit the ground running and I need to be strategic about one, there's everything burst into flames on Monday. But two, if I don't talk to my people and talk about what the plan is and where we're going, then we're going to spend our whole week reacting. And then they're going to have questions. And it's just everything the whole week will go better if I hit the ground with a clear plan and check in and action items for my people and say, hey, this is what I'm looking for you this week.

4:34This is what I need. and then also they're going to ping me and say these are the obstacles that are in my way these are the things that are holding me back these are things i don't have clarity on and i just know those things are just going to hit on monday as people really try to like look at what their week is going to be and so i think that's why monday is monday at least for me and i think it's why people don't like it's the monday because you get the most planning today for your week was just absolutely yes i see and it's the most but also i really think if you've got good people and i have good people i have very good am i am i that's me that's that present company included yes i have yes gold star i have great people and the what i have found is that they hit the ground on monday and they're like let's go and if you don't if you don't have guidance for them if you don't knock the obstacles out of the way for them they get frustrated it's like it's like it's like keeping a high performance sports car going 20 miles an hour.

5:34Like it's not built for that. Like, so anyway, that's just kind of how I feel. But if I, if I, if I have a good Monday and I, and I come in organized and I've got a clear plan and I can knock things out of the way that free up other people, preferentially I work on those things, then they end up having a productive whole week. And again, I can kind of get the other stuff after, after I've cleared their obstacles. And I just feel like that's the best thing. There's so many people who come in and they just start reacting to stuff and they don't see their racehorses, their thoroughbreds, their high performers, just standing around waiting for you to untether them from the fence.

6:12You know what I mean? It's like, buddy, I know you're working hard and I know that you think you're doing the most important thing. You're not, you're doing the most urgent thing. And as a result, your people are stuck because you haven't, you didn't run your Monday the right way. So So anyway, that's how I feel. You know, a lot of this too is like you, you're like, yeah, I have great people around me that they just ready to go. A lot of it too. I think that you and Ron Soza have such a, such a great expectation for us on Mondays or like Mondays is our team meeting day where we usually come together and we align on things.

6:41And I think people are only as strong as the coaches in front of them. So as much as I want to thank you for the compliment, I just got to thank you right back for being the coach for us and exactly what this mailbag is actually about. great mailbag. I know. I really like this mailbag a lot. There's a lot going on here, but I just think this is a really fun, cool question. And this person has obviously thought a lot about their position. This is really well-written. And they mentioned communication styles, which made my heart so happy. Okay. So we've got, yes. They clearly look at their employees the way that we teach people to look at their employees.

7:17This is an uncharted person. Yes. Without a doubt, because they're like, let me tell you about this doctor. And then they just pop, pop, pop, lay down. Who is this person? Where are they in their life? What are their values? What are their motivators? What is their communication style? You know, and just they just lay down all of these important pieces of sort of context around this person that are that are the buttons and the levers that you need to know so that you can work with this person and collaborate effectively with them and not get frustrated and not make them super frustrated. Yeah, I loved it a lot.

7:47There was so just just to summarize the the mailbag, we have an independent practice owner. They're about 26 years in practice, 18 of those as an owner. And they run their clinic. They've been doing it for a while. Yeah. They've been in it. And they hired an associate about five years ago with some experience, a lot of it coming. They came from other practices. This associate, what we know, left corporate work for better work-life balance, they said. Where they're struggling is they resist delegating to the trained team, which keeps everybody behind, a little bit of what we were just talking about with Mondays.

8:19And overall, they have a way of communicating with a team that I think comes off a little bit harsher. The practice owner, the person that submitted the mailbag said that the associate is smart, kind, data-driven, great at teaching, very C-style on the disk pattern. So we know they're very analytical. They're very measured. And in the first few days, she has stopped some workflow and protocol to challenge protocols, basically. She's been challenging the product. Why are we doing it? She's like, why are we doing this way? Or I've never done it this way. Or that's not how I do it. I always do it this way.

8:55Yeah, I always do it this way. When they said that she's sort of a harsh communication style, my impression was that was what they were talking about. Do you agree with that? She would just be like, no, I don't do it that way. Yeah, yeah. And it kind of puts the staff back on their heels. Well, the direct question that they asked, which I don't want to ignore because it's really good, because they gave us this beautiful list of details. Their question was, how do you coach a highly scaled, data-driven, younger doctor so that they feel supported, not attacked, while making it clear that their communication style comments about pricing, reluctance to delegate, all of these things, these immediate challenges need to be addressed early?

9:29And so they're kind of struggling from like balancing the evidence-based medicine with the experience of watching the recommendations kind of change and helping this newer doctor learn the systems first before they start or before the feedback comes off as criticism, essentially. Right? Like very, very similar to some of the stuff that we've talked in the past. But I love this specifically because the person is like asking, how do I coach this individual? I want them to challenge the protocols. I want them to improve the workflows. those. I don't want them to feel like I'm attacking them. Here are the details.

10:03They're C style. They're motivated by work-life balance. How, how do I have this conversation? So I thought that this was like, this was really good. Cause I felt like the, the, from a headspace perspective, the, the practice owner has done a lot of the legwork already. I mean, we know the motivator, we know the communication style, they, they're kind of ready to, and even then, so it's like my, it's like, I think about coaching an individual. One of the things that we started at Uncharted is always separating the behavior from the personality. And so I feel like they've already done that by even giving us the verbiage that this person is using.

10:34And so I kind of wanted to start there, Andy, with you. So when a doctor's instincts are good, but their delivery can kind of land as criticism, how do you help the owner separate behavior from the person so that the doctor feels supported and not attacked? What does that look like in this kind of situation? So this is, I love how they set this up. The answer to this, I'm so glad that we started talking about our Mondays because that's the key. That leads right into it. If this person really is a high performer, which is what they said in the mailbag, they're like, she knows what she's doing. She's five years in, good standard of medicine.

11:09Like, we like her. If she's a high performer, then the answer is you collaborate with her. Right? I think a lot of this pain is coming from frustration on both sides. I think she's come in and she's making changes. she's like, I don't do it that way. And I don't like that. And that could be better. And it sounds like she's, I don't know. I'm not gonna say she's right. She's, she's, I think she has probably defensible positions. You know, she's not tearing things down, but, but she's probably got some clear ideas and maybe she, maybe there's really validity into what she's saying. You know, we all get into systems that we sort of set them up and everything.

11:48And I don't know a business that's as good as at updating its systems as it should be. You know, you kind of find things that people like that work and everybody knows this way. And it's just, you know, it's a lift to update the system and to change the systems once people are like, yep, we know this, we're comfortable with it. And so I think that we have to keep fighting that battle. But I think every company falls behind in some ways. I think that people who don't own businesses or haven't run teams in a significant way, one of the things that they just don't get, and I don't know how you can teach it somebody, is you just don't realize.

12:22how much time it takes to make a change. I think a lot of veterinarians are used to being a ship of one. Like they're a little speedboat, you know what I mean? With the little motor sticking off the back and they just got the hand thing cranked over and they're swerving back and forth making changes. That's fine when you've got a little boat that's got a motor in one person. you cannot steer a ship of 30 50 100 people like that that's not how this works you know the amount of time and planning it takes to move a cruise ship is entirely different and again they're not bad they're not dumb they just they just haven't had that experience the experience they have is i can go in the treatment room and i'm just going to change this plan and we're going to go a different direction.

13:15And it kind of looks like it works, but they don't see how that stresses the system, all the ripple effects that come out of that and stuff like that. And so anyway, they're not bad. And I think that getting your head around that first helps you sort of frame this thing up as, look, it's just a different thing. And people, they don't understand. And so they don't understand. The answer to that is we've got to figure out how are we going to work together? Because I didn't tell them, yeah, you do great. We really want to grow. We want to evolve. We want to adapt. We want to work with you. You're here because you're a great teacher, because you're data-driven.

13:47Now that you're here, sit down, shut up, follow the rules. You're going to do it our way. That's not at all what, I don't think that was what was communicated. We didn't want that. Also, we can't change everything at once. And so this, I have high expectations here. I've got a lot of optimism. This is an honest conversation about how things are going. And then how are we going to work together so that you can see the progress we're making and feel like you're having an impact and influence. And also, the staff doesn't feel like they're being criticized. They don't feel like everything is going out the window, like they don't know what they're doing, which is a really upsetting experience for them.

14:29And so anyway, that's what we want to figure out. The other thing that they mentioned here I think is really important to pull out is this vet left the last practice and came to this practice because they were burning out. They said They were working all the time. They never got to relax. They were they were doing all the things. And so the reason they took this job was because this is a practice that leveraged their technicians, you know, had protocols in place that got the doctors out on time. And now this person is coming in and they are picking back up these toxic behaviors, which are the reason they left their last job.

15:01You know, they're they're they're taking things away from the staff. They're doing things themselves. they're staying late, they're making changes, they're shutting down or avoiding the systems because it's not the way they want it done, which is then shifting the entire workload onto them, which is then putting them back into these pattern of behaviors. And I would say, I think that's important because I don't think we can ignore that. I think we have to talk to the person about that as well. And so that should come into this same conversation, which I would go ahead and boldly frame Maria as a ways of working conversation.

15:36I like, I love the ways of working conversations. And I do think that that's exactly kind of what I was getting at when we're trying to separate the behavior from the personality, right? Because at the end of the day, it's not, hey, we want you to stop updating protocols and want you to stop bringing in those changes. We want to grow and want to learn as a practice. It's how we're bringing up those changes and those protocol updates. And so, and that's why I love the mailbag so much because they called out the language that already needs to change anyway, right? Yes. Oh, yeah. I think they see this clearly.

16:07I think they understand what changes need to make and where these, they can see where the stress points are happening, which is the first step. The first step is diagnosis. I think they have a nice diagnosis about where these pain points are. I think they're really looking at what does the treatment plan look like. And I think that's part of the conversation, because if you go up to an, like trying to coach a veterinarian trying to say, hey, the way that you're coming off is a little rude to the rest of the team, then that's going to kind of attack that individual's personality. But if you can tie it back to the actual behavior that we want, which is really the communication or the way in which we are bringing these situations up, right?

16:42The whole, this is how I've always done it versus giving them language that I think they can easily do a switch out. And I do think it needs to come from that motivator of, you know, we want work-life balance. These are the systems that help us protect getting out on time. And we still want you to share where we can improve. It's just about how we do that. And so I think that that's partially it. We need to sit down and really think, what's the end result here? Or is it just those phrases that we need to change? Or are there other things from a systems perspective too? Because one of the things that I think is important is if you don't have a systems for people to update protocols in the first place, they're going to default to what they know, which is trying to update it right then and there in the moment.

17:21But I will, in my practice, we used to have a whole form that'd be like, this is the protocol. This is how I believe it needs updating. And this is how I, you know, this is the data behind it. But that would immediately get forwarded over to the practice manager who can actually do a training for the entire team. So then this one individual doesn't feel like they have to train everybody as they go or come off in this way. But that way we can talk about it as a group and be able to explain the why behind it. because I feel like that's what gets lost when this veterinarian is trying to correct in the moment.

17:52Just saying something like, oh, well, this is how I do it. This is how I've always do it. Doesn't really give the team the opportunity to learn exactly why the change was being made or why they're doing it differently, which then is gonna come off to the team as criticism instead of like, hey, there are different ways to do this and this is my thought process behind it, right? And so I just think that that's part of the conversation here is what do you really wanna change? What's the end result? what specific behavior you're trying to change. And if you don't already have systems to gather this feedback, what systems are available?

18:21If they're not, can we create some systems to be able to get more of this information up? Because as you stated, the change is going to take a long time. And if we can at least gather everything that we want to change, we can prioritize it in a way that makes sense for the team. Yeah. So I agree with that. I think you laid down a bunch of stuff. I agree. I would not be like, hey, the way you're saying this sounds harsh or you're being rude or this sounds rude. I don't use language like that with the doctors. I think especially because this is early on, you've still got this nice, beautiful window of this is a new person coming into the team.

18:55Don't wait a year or two, you're going to lose this. But right now you can talk to this person. And I would, I would say, I would kind of, I would roll this into a larger conversation. I wouldn't lead with it. But when I talk to them, I would say, hey, I want to talk to you about sort of communicating with the team in a way that's going to make you effective and is not going to stress them out or make them feel criticized. And so, but, but I'm going to, I'm going to talk to you then I'm not going to, I'm not going to talk to you about how you're communicating is wrong. I'm going to say with, with this team, there are some communication strategies that are going to make you a lot more effective.

19:25And, and I would, I would, and that's how I put that. And the other thing I like to talk a lot about is managing the perception of the team, right? So if you walk in and you are very direct and the staff says she's rude i think it's debatable whether or not you're rude right it's like no you're direct but if you've ever i've had the fight with my wife before where she said well you were rude to me and i said i was not i was clear and she goes you were rude and you guys can't believe this maria i did not win this argument i did not win this argument although Because you were probably rude. That was probably.

20:01Tell Allie I took her side, please. I know, 100%. Just let her know. Everyone I've talked to has immediately taken my wife's side. Allie's right. But, exactly. My problem is not that I was rude in my mind. However, I cannot deny that my wife's perception was that I was rude. And in the end, if she perceives what I said as being rude, I'm going to have to deal with the fallout exactly the same as if it was actually rude. And so I'm not rude. I can believe that what I said was not rude. Also, as a pragmatist, I need to accept that her perception was rude. And in the future, I need to figure out how to manage her perception while getting what I want or communicating what I want to communicate.

20:49And so the same thing is true here. I'm not saying the doctor is being rude when she says, I haven't done it that way. And I'm not saying that her medical knowledge is flawed when she goes, I'm not doing that. However, I am saying the perception of the staff when she says that is that they are failing. They are less than. They're not good at their job or that they're ignorant. And like that's kind of the perception that they're getting. I know she doesn't mean it this way. And I would say, I know you don't mean it this way. My concern is that that is the perception. When this gets said on the floor, while people are actually working, I think the perception of what is being communicated, I think that's a problem.

21:34Yeah. And so that's how I would sort of frame that up. And then you're right. There is the, you know, there is sort of the ways of working sort of communication styles. And to me, this is very much systems. So the big system I want to pull out and just drop on the table is, what is the system for actually making protocol changes in this hospital? Which is what you spoke to, Maria. But the big thing that I want to say, and this varies with the size of your practice and the complexity of the operation you're running, I don't think you can change more than one protocol a month at the fastest. You know what I mean?

22:14Here's how it's set up. I would open up the conversation. I would set something up. I would have lunch. I would get out of the practice. I would go somewhere else, right? And I would sit down. I would say, hey, this is just an early, you know, this is a three-month check-in, whatever. We're getting started. You know, how are you feeling so far? How are things going? What do you like about the practice? What do you like about the staff? Who are your favorite people to work with? Why are they your favorite people to work with? This is not about me trying to figure out who you are so we can play favorites.

22:41This is about me trying to figure out what your values are. and I can tell what your values are by who you like working with and what about them you like. And so again, I'm just checking myself and my ideas about what you care about and what motivates you. And so I'm gonna say, well, you know what I like. And then I'm gonna say, you know, talk to me about the experience with the medicine. And we might, I would start with the culture and everything. And then I'd probably come around and say, talk to me about the medicine. What are the things, what are the things you think that we do really well?

23:04And again, I'm not gonna let them jump in to telling me what they don't like. I'm like, nope, I want you to talk about what our team does well. Great. Do you communicate that to the team? Those things that you like, do you tell them about it? Do you think the staff knows? All right. I would just flag that for you because they work really hard and they want you to like them and they want you to be impressed by them. And so if you haven't been communicating that, I would mention it to them. What are the things that you are most interested in improving? And I'm not going to let them laundry list me and go, I don't like that that is sitting next to the sink.

23:31I don't like the height of the chair. I don't like the fact that the lights, you know, have a weird on switch that's hard to do with one hand. Like, I was like, okay, it sounds like that's a room setup issue, right? So I'm going to put room setup, something like that. But I'm going to get them to give me their list of things. And then I'm going to say, what would be your priority list? Knowing that with a team this large, we can only make one adjustment at a time. We need to message this. We need to get everybody on board. We need to make sure that we are moving as a team so that we can leverage our support staff and so that we can continue to have the culture that we have.

24:10And then again, what I'm sending, I'm sending the messages of not, we're not doing this. This is a collaboration. We can do whatever and I'm happy to talk to you about it. But I need to know what your priorities are. And then after I have the priority list, I'm going to ask you to let this go. You know what I mean? I'm going to come back around and say, I understand. Would you be okay if between now and the end of the year, we work on this thing? And then in January, our plan will be to do a push. You believe that Uncharted is turning 10? That's right. Uncharted VetHare Conference is celebrating 10 years and you're going to want to be there.

24:45It is happening on January 15th, 2027 and registration is open right now. UnchartedVet.com. Hope to see you there. Push on this area that you're excited about. Would you take the lead on preparing this? the, like, would you put a session together? Would you be willing to take the lead to explain why? Would you be willing to lead a lunch and learn for our team in January on this? And now I'm pulling them in because what I'm not going to also have them do is come in and say, that's wrong. That's broken. That's wrong. That's broken. I'm not doing it. I'm not fixing any of this. Somebody else needs to fix this problem.

25:21It's like, nope, you're, you're in this. If this is important enough to you to complain about in front of the staff, it should be important enough for you to come and sit with me and help me figure out what we're actually going to do and how we're going to do it and to help me get this to be the way that you said you want it to be. And I can do this. None of this is confrontational. This is about collaboration. It's helped me to help you. Yeah. I especially love the fact that you're leaning heavily into questions in a way of informing for coaching, right? Because oftentimes I'm afraid that people think that coaching involves like, oh, here, let me give you guidance.

25:56Let me give you advice. And it's just, just that advice that you're pouring out. And a practice owner, for example, could easily be like, oh, let me give you some advice about leadership. I'm 26 years in as a manager. And that immediately won't work as well because we have to get that person to, I think, a level of awareness in the first place that they even need the improvement there. And so I think questions work a lot better to get somebody to that level of awareness. So before I even have the conversation of like, what should, what do you think the team works well? I might even inquire with them because let's be honest, if this person left, you know, a different life, a different type of work relationship, they might already have examples already of leader, brand new leaders that they've seen step in and they, you know, maybe they didn't love right away.

26:38And if so, what did they do in those first 30 days that they didn't like about it? Or in general, if they don't have anything that they can lean on, I might even offer this opportunity to be vulnerable and share a story. but at the same time, like all of it is really to get that person to awareness that when a new leader comes in and they're immediately changing things over and over again, instead of building trust, it erodes trust because we haven't had that opportunity to build trust with a team member. Right. And it's really hard to influence a team if we don't have that trust built up. And so as I'm trying to have this conversation, conversation with them, I need them to see why that can sometimes be problematic with a brand new team member.

27:16And the only way that you're going to get that information out is through asking the right questions. I love your idea of a story and sort of leading with vulnerability, leading with a story. And again, I don't know what other people have as a story, but it's funny that you say that because this is exactly the story I would tell. So when I started as a brand new veterinarian, I came in and I was so excited to be there. And I really wanted to make a difference and I wanted to do great medicine, you know, and when When I was hired, they, you know, they hired me and they were like, hey, we really want you to be a leader.

27:47We want you to help us sort of, you know, go to the next level and do those things. And so I showed up and my first, you know, couple of months as a veterinarian, I did the exact thing this doctor did. I was like, oh, we could do that better. Why don't we have, you know, why don't we have a forum for that? We could get, you know, there's a new software program that we could get that would totally do that. You know, that could be automated. You know, if we had the technicians go into the exam room with us, we could do these things much faster. And honestly, that's what we do at the vet schools.

28:15And I just kept, you know, listing these things. And it was all coming from a good place. It was all coming from wanting to be valuable, you know, and wanting to help. And I took these things and I started writing them down. And then I started giving them to the practice owners on a weekly basis. On Thursdays, I would send them my list for the week of things that we could do better or differently. And I called it the Rourke Report, and I wrote the Rourke Report at the top. And, like, the first time I gave it to them, they kind of chuckled. And the second time, they didn't say anything. And the third time, we had a meeting.

28:50We had a meeting. And they were just like, this is not, like, you can't do this. And they told me, they did not do it well. They said, you're ticking people off, Andy. And, you know, like I said to someone, I was like, this person, it would really help if they were here on Saturdays. So I think that we should think about scheduling them on Saturdays. And I guess they showed it to that person, which, again, I think was maybe unprofessional of them if they weren't going to do it. But and basically they they got her mad at me. And just anyway, again, and in retrospect, I get it. I see why she was upset.

29:23I think they handled it poorly. but I did it wrong and it blew up in my face and it was not a fun way to start out in practice. It was just a self-inflicted injury but I just didn't know. And so anyway, I would tell that story. Again, it's not about the fact this person had been out five years. I would just be like, when I started and I really wanted the practice to be great, this is the mistake that I made. And I think that I could say that story and just say, look, I see you and I see you trying to make us better and I appreciate it and I want that. I think we're doing too much at once, and I think we're sharing too much with the staff in the moment, and I want to work with you, and let's make a real strategy where we're actually going to make change.

30:07And then the last part of this that I would add to it, because they talked about being burned out the last practice and we're seeing those things change, the last piece of this besides, hey, look, the way that we talk to the staff is important, right, managing perception, and then the way that we organize change we want to make, and you and me get on the same page and really figure out how to make this happen in a way that's going to stay changed. The third part is you got to help me help you. Like you got to like help me save you from yourself. I do not want you to pick these behaviors back up.

30:40I'm seeing you starting to do these things. The whole reason you came here is because you want to leverage the staff. I will work with you. I need you to have some patience, come along with the system, but I need you to push back against the desire to start picking things up, doing them yourself, sacrificing yourself. And I want your permission to hold you accountable to that. Help me to stop you from sacrificing yourself. Please. And I would try to get that commitment. And then I would write that down for myself. I would put a date next to it. And then I would circle back to it and say, nope, in October, 2026, when you came here, I asked you if you would help me help you.

31:19And you said you would. And now I'm seeing you staying later and later, and I need to change that behavior. But I would go back to that as a pivotal piece. I think that this is great timing. It's time to have a check-in. And it's not about, hey, let's have a check-in, and that's code for here's the three things you're doing wrong, I need you to fix them. It's about honestly. Let's talk about how we're both feeling, how this is going. And again, talk about what is good before we talk about what needs to change. But when we talk about what needs to change, I think you can frame this up in a very positive way around their development and take it forward.

31:55The last thing I would say is I was talking to our mutual friend, Dr. Phil Richmond, this morning. And we were talking about working with – we were talking about complaints that people have about the next generation. And there's always people who come in and go, oh, the next generation doesn't want to work or whatever. Every generation has that, right? Every single generation has that. A hundred percent. And Phil, it was so funny because Phil was like, I would fire 20-year-old me in a heartbeat. Like he was like, I would have no patience for myself 30 years ago. You know what I mean? It's just, we're all a work in progress.

32:33We're all developing. You know what I mean? And so there's an impatience in younger people. It just is. Again, everybody's different. I'm not a big fan of being like generation. I don't know. I'd hire me at 20. I was a very hard worker. Okay. So I don't know. I don't know. Well, people, people are messy. That's true. Yes. I guarantee that you at 20, just like me at 20 would have some personality traits and behaviors that would drive us today up the wall. Yes, absolutely. I think trying to wrangle 30 year old Andy would make 50 year old Andy pull his hair out. That's what I think. It's interesting.

33:13It's very interesting. Either way, I think you're so spot on on what we're talking about here when it's like getting this person to see and then getting them to commit. I love the idea of a contract here where it says, like, when can I follow up with you on this? When can we talk about this? Knowing that this person is a C-style and they're very data-driven and knowing that the mailbag said that they have AI scribes, One of the things that I thought would be really interesting is if there was some sort of exercise where this individual can ask the AI scribe how they can improve the communication that they're currently using to have a bigger impact with the team and see what the AI scribe might come out with.

33:50Because in those kinds of cases, then we can also follow it up in 60, 90 days and see if there is an improvement on that based on what the AI scribe is kind of noting. Difficult to do depending on which scribe you have. But I think that those things are like, if this person is data driven, we need some sort of data attached to this, right? Whether it's an engagement survey that you can do with the team right now and kind of collect some of the information and then do an engagement survey later on. whether it's the fact that you are seeing an improvement in the number of protocols that are coming up, like we've updated this many protocols since then versus before we had no idea how many protocols we did update.

34:26Whether this person is, you know, like monitoring the work-life balance, are they actually only working their recommended or their desired hours versus staying late every single day? no matter what, I do think we need to attach some sort of data or metrics to this, just because this person obviously is very, very data and metrics focused. And these things might help them see that they are moving the needle, that they're improving their behavior as we want them to. I do also think that I would love to see some tools for this individual. What I mean by tools is like, we know that some of the phrases that they're using were kind of part of the problem here.

35:02But even if you say like, instead of saying, you know, I would never do it that way, changing that to I've had good results with X. Can you walk me through what led you to your approach? Right. Yeah. But giving this individual some real tools that they can actually use. Yeah. Like I like that. I think it's hard for people to understand where they could change their language without those phrases. I think that a lot of people need them. And, you know, even something as little as like, instead of saying, why do it this way? Say like, help me understand how this workflow works best. Things like that.

35:31Those phrases really, really help for that individual. And then I do also think that the like, what system do we have here? What phrases can we use in this situation? What kind of questions do we get them to this awareness? And then how do we monitor the success? I think we need to leverage the communication style that the practice owner already knows is happening here. One of the things that I love about communication styles is that it helps the leaders really be able to identify their team and help coach them and guide them. But there is a huge benefit when the entire team has done communication training and the entire team knows how to talk to each other.

36:05Because I say this is, I don't know that this associate has been trained in communication styles the way that the practice owner has been trained in communication styles. And sometimes we do team training on the styles and we get a little bit better for a short period of time, but then we never pick up the training again or we never talk about the styles again. And so then the training kind of falls off. And And the reason I mentioned that is because if there is some directness here, it's a lot easier for people to meet each other where they are versus one person trying to meet the entire team where they are.

36:34And so there could be some benefit in just bringing back communication training so that this individual understands the impact behind how we say things and the way that we say things. I think that that can always be beneficial, not necessarily an immediate thing, but like obviously thinking about this long term and how we want to help the team communicate better in the long run. Right. Yeah. I like that a lot. I think I'd be, I love the idea of phrases, but you have to be a little bit careful about sending mixed messages. I think what I would really ask for is to say, let's figure out what our priorities are.

37:05And then honestly, for me, I would say, unless there is a patient safety component, I want you to avoid giving feedback to the text in the moment. And instead, I want you to, like, let's share a document. and I would do a document or I would do a spreadsheet or something like that. But I would say, I want to collect these things because I want to batch them together and give them the feedback around the time that I'm giving them the training and saying, this is what we're working on. If there are, if there's a patient safety thing, if there is, if there is an immediate, if it's a small, if it's a small change, something like that, then, you know, then I think that there are some phrases that I would use and we could talk about it.

37:48But honestly, I, even if it's taking away the way they say it, like, oh, I'm not going to do that, or I would never do it that way. I still think that the problem of changing and challenging the protocols in the moment in front of the team, I think that's a problem. And I just don't think there's that many instances where, again, unless there's a patient safety protocol, I really don't think that everything has to be challenged right there. And also the staff doesn't have the ability to change that protocol anyway. And so I would try to open up a path for, I want this feedback. I want you to give it to me, not to them.

38:32And I don't want you to be texting me all day long with things. And so let's build a system. Let's put a place where we can give that feedback. And then you and I can revisit the feedback and then we can start to put it together in ways and see how it fits together. and we can start to address chunks at a time and then fix it and move on. But again, I just think having one person who's spot challenging everything or lots of things, I think that's a bad idea. So I don't wanna send the message of, hey, we'll fix these systems. And also here's how you give a bunch of feedback in the moment. I would say, I want you to minimize your feedback in the moment and then let's work on this.

39:08I think there definitely needs to be training here for multiple things because there are some areas in which you're right. Like if it's a full protocol change and we all need to change this workflow, then there's a route for that. There are still gonna be times when this doctor is gonna have to give feedback in the moment because we know that feedback is better in the moment, especially positive feedback, right? Like being able to tell them that they did a good job. And honestly, I feel like all veterinarians in practices are leaders and they constantly have to be giving feedback. And that is one of the areas in which we do a disservice is we don't train a lot of veterinarians on how to give feedback, but they're constantly having to give feedback to their veterinary technicians or their veterinary assistants.

39:47So I think it's smart to have the conversation on minimizing the feedback. I think saying that you're never going to have to use these phrases at all is setting them up for failure a little bit because they're going to be put into situations where they're going to have to say something in that moment. And we can't say that that's not okay. I fear that then that creates a situation where they feel like they're stepping on toes and they're like that whole walking on eggshells thing, like don't give them the feedback directly, bring it to me always, is not going to be the best long-term solution.

40:20Maybe in the moment when we're talking about let's prioritize which protocols we want to grow, there are still going to be some minor details here, whether it's like if somebody's doing a catheter placement that's different and they're like, oh, I want you to use tabs here. You know what I mean? That's not going to require an entire protocol that maybe this person's not following the protocol. If the staff is trained in how to put catheters in and tape them in and you want tabs, you should shut up. Like, you should just, like, tabs are not a thing where you say, I need to intervene here. It's like, put that down and just say, hey, can we talk about taping these in?

41:00I think this is a minor thing. And then I go, great, let's talk about it. You know what I mean? But let's bundle it together. And again, I just use that as a thing. if you have said we trained our techs in how to put in catheters and we signed off on them I know it seems like a small thing to the vet to be like I like mine a little bit different it's like you've undermined the consistency with which we train this entire team and reinforce them and again that's why everything this is the other thing I would say is everything is contextual and so it is not my standard advice to say don't give feedback in the moment my standard advice is the opposite.

41:34But when we're dealing with a vet who has this sort of tendency right now to criticize and the staff is feeling criticized by that doctor, I would say, for right now, I think your primary source of feedback should be to me. And again, if I have another vet who never says anything to the staff, I would say, I think you should practice giving feedback in the moment. And again, it's a spectrum and it's a balanced thing. So where are you getting this person then the opportunity to actually practice giving feedback correctly if they don't get to give it to them. So just like I would have them come to me and I would try to say, listen, taking, changing a whole team takes time.

42:16I would say to this person who's going to have the conversation, changing doctors takes time. Changing human beings takes time. And Rome wasn't built in the day. And I don't think that you're going to sit this doctor down and say, hey, so I need you, we need to talk about protocols and how you're doing protocols. And also we need to talk about how you're giving feedback and let's talk about the right way to give feedback. And also we need to do a communication training and let's go ahead and get that scheduled. Like, I think that that does not feel like the, like sort of the check-in initial conversation that we have.

42:48I really think that if we go in and we ask the right questions at the beginning and we start this as an open conversation. I think that we can start to figure out what are the real issues here. And a lot of times if I can get them just to understand, hey, change takes time and these people want your approval and they want you to respect and they want you to think they do a good job, then a lot of times the communication issues will resolve, you know, because we've changed this mindset. We've changed the way that we're looking at it and things like that. And then I think we should see what we get and sort of see what changes are made.

43:22And then I think that just like, I want to continue to collaborate with this doctor so that we can grow the team in that way. I want to continue to collaborate with this doctor and grow the doctor in that way. And so I think that we might very well end up needing to talk about effective ways to do coaching and feedback. But I think also we have to kind of have to pick the thing of like, what is the behavior that we're going to try to address first? And then I think we're going to have to sort of continue to work with these people. And I think in the best scenario, we continue to give them feedback and they continue to give us feedback.

43:52And this is a multi-year ongoing sort of developmental type process. I think my conversation, I think you make a really good point in terms of not, you know, shutting down this person's development or taking away skills or things they should be developing. I think I was more thinking about sort of the acute phase that we're in now of helping them to sort of get on board and to integrate with the staff and to feel like they're being supported and to feel like this practice can go where it needs to go. But I think that just in the same way that they come in and they're like, you need to change this, this, this, this, and this, I think we run the same risk of going to them and saying, hey, you about yourself, you need to change this, this, this, this, and this.

44:32And so I think that we, again, it's kind of like, it's like giving feedback to a family member. It's like we have to believe that they're going to be there and prioritize that relationship. And we need to decide what is the thing that we want to kind of talk to them about today and then talk to them about that, you know, and assume good intent on their part and that they'll see what we're talking about. And a lot of times people have to figure things out for themselves. And so I think we can continue to sort of coaching guide them. Well, I think that's part of the coaching conversation, right?

44:57When I say let's look at the AI, let's look at communication training, let's look at these phrases that they can replace, let's look at the systems in which we have for updating protocols, all of these things are part of the conversation. And as we're having the conversation with this individual and we're asking them, whatever idea or whatever solution we go with to improve the situation, it should come from that individual. And I'm just, as a leader, I'm anticipating that this individual is going to say, well, what do I do in the moment when I have to bring something up? Right. And you being able to say, well, don't give any feedback at all in the moment is going to come off a little bit harsher.

45:32And I think that's what I'm talking about is, is we're not saying go do everything that we just shared with you all of these ideas. These are different phases and they're different steps. And when I talk about communication training for the individual, I'm not like, hey, so you've been communicating with the staff terribly. And as a result, I'm going to put you through communication training so that you can improve yourself. And that way, nobody will have a problem. The problem is you. Right? No, no, no, no, of course not. We're addressing the situation with this individual. We're coaching them to come to the awareness piece of, hey, the communication here, I love that you're doing this.

46:04This is how we want to do it. Everything that you're talking about, whatever solution comes from it, we need to understand that they're going to ask you those things and you should be prepared with like a, not necessarily the solution, but a solution that's going to work with the team and whatever comes from them, they're going to be more bought into, right? So as they say, well, what happens when I can't do this? I want you to think about, well, what does happen when they feel like they can't give feedback? Well, what does happen when they feel like, like if they're like, if they respond, they're like, well, I just feel like everybody's really sensitive and nobody understands that we have to get things done.

46:40I'm just trying to be direct. That's probably where I'll be like, you know what? There could be some truth to that. I would love to do some communication training so that everybody can meet each other where they are, because I think we're all different individuals and some people maybe do that. No matter what, I think as leaders, we need to anticipate that there's going to be some pushback as we coach. A lot of it is asking the right question and getting them to that realization. And then hopefully to a solution, something that we're going to be able to move the needle on later on. So I think that that part really depends on that individual no matter what.

47:08I agree with you, though. If you go in and you give them like 10 different solutions, them being the problem, then obviously that's going to come off in a certain way. I really love your call out. And I think that you put your finger right on it. And this is the thing that we can't really do when we're sort of talking in the theoretical. You know, I think that the coaching and the tools and how that rolls out, I think a lot of it depends on what they say to you and what their desires are and what questions they ask. And so I think you and I are laying down a lot of different tools and approaches, but I really do think like where you get traction will dictate kind of where you go.

47:40And just to be clear, and I think you understand this too, is I think what I was trying to bring across is if I have somebody who's giving feedback continuously to the staff, especially if it's conflicting with things they've been trying to do, I don't want them. And I can't imagine a scenario where I'm like, don't give people feedback. But I think that I would probably say something more along the lines of, I need you to prioritize collecting that feedback and working with me on what we're going to communicate to the staff together as a unified front and how we're going to actually support that feedback with training, implementation, clear communication, things like that.

48:19Yes. That's what I want to do. I'm not trying to silence anybody. A thousand percent. I would say for corrective feedback, I would love for you to bring that to us so we can do something that's going to train the entire team. I would love for you to prioritize positive feedback. Yes, I like that a lot. Finding things that the team is doing well so that you can build the trust bank so that when you do, when we get to the point of having to give corrective feedback, you've built enough positive feedback. And so I think switching the framing from don't give any feedback to can we try and switch it to give positive feedback maybe is where we can come to an agreement, my dear mentor and friend.

48:59Yeah. No, I agree. Speaking in absolutes is always a bad term. So anyway, no, but you're exactly right. But that's just kind of my thing. Yeah, hopefully I can get them to understand, again, the perception of the staff and also make them know that we recognize their intention to help the team improve. And just say this, hopefully we can get them to understand the way they're going about it is not working. And then they can make some commonsensical adjustments to how they do that. And it's not about give this amount of feedback or that. But I do agree. I love your point of saying, hey, if you really want to guide the team, lean into your positive feedback.

49:38And so if there's things that you like and you see them doing it, make sure that you're highlighting those things. Again, that will help them feel secure. And honestly, it's going to open up opportunities for you to give some constructive feedback later on after they've gotten some positive feedback for you and they feel like, oh, she thinks I'm good at my job. You know, she respects me or he respects me. Then that opens that up a lot more. And, you know, I think too, if it helps at all, we go through the entire trust bank situation in the leadership essential certificate that is available to uncharted members, which covers exactly how that works.

50:11And I do think that it's the positive feedback or is an easy concept for most veterinarians to understand because animals are the same way, right? Like negative reinforcement versus positive reinforcement. You always have that analogy in your pocket to coach the individual with. And I think that that helps us too. So any other final steps here, Andy, before we wrap this set? Well, I think this is, I think this is good. It was a great question. It's somebody who's clearly thinking a lot about it. My, my, my final thing would be, I would try to keep the stakes low. You know what I mean? That's why I like, like, let's just go have a check-in.

50:43Let's talk about what's going great, what's going okay. And then what, what we would like to see change. And then after sort of trying to, trying to keep that down, then, then I would really, I would really lean into into into asking the questions and trying to understand and encouraging them to ask me questions as well and so this is going to be a process that we work through but just trying to get the person to understand what you're saying is important and I want you to have a voice here and I want to continue to collaborate with you to grow and develop this practice and also I need you to have patience and we need to pick what our steps are going to be and we can't come in and change everything at once and so let's start to work together in an organized way and this will be really fun and I think it'll be really rewarding for both of us and I think that if you can really frame it that way and you really see it that way, I think this is not a hard conversation to have and in my experience, people tend to respond really well to that much.

51:45I love that. I love all of that. Well, that's all we got. Thank you, Andy. This was really fun. And that's it, y 'all. That's what we got for you. I hope you enjoyed this episode. I know I certainly did. Andy is such a wealth of knowledge whenever it comes to coaching conversations. And so I just love picking his brain about all of these different things. I hope to see you at VMX in 2027. It's happening in just a couple of months. Registration is still open January 15th. We'll put a link in the show notes. And as always, if you enjoyed this episode, please leave us a review wherever you listen to your podcasts or even just send us a message on social media, do our email.

52:16We just love to hear from you. So thank you so much for tuning in. Thank you to Dustin for editing this episode. And as always, thank you to Tyler Harry for making sure it is out in the world. So thank you to everyone involved. We will catch you next time. Bye.

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