427 - The Smelly Team Member Conversation

0:00Maria Pirita: Ten years ago, I thought people came to conferences for information. I was wrong. You can Google almost any answer in 30 seconds while hiding in a supply closet. What you can't Google is skill. Skill is having hard conversation when you're exhausted, short-staffed, and the person across from you is upset. And that only comes from practicing with people who will tell you the truth when you miss. That's what Uncharted is. On Friday, January 15th in Orlando, the day before VMX opens, we're celebrating 10 years with a one-day conference built around leaders practicing hard things together. You'll get Dr.

0:37Maria Pirita: Peter Weinstein, the Uncharted team, and about a dozen mic drop talks from people in the community, people you know like Dr. Phil Richmond and Dr. Caitlin DeWild. I'm not going to tell you it'll be easy because it won't. But if you want to do the work alongside people who get it, come and join us. details are at unchartedvet.com. Register today. Don't miss your chance.

1:00Ron Sosa: Welcome back to another episode of the Uncharted Veterinary Podcast. I am your host, Maria Parita, and I am sitting down today with the Ron Sosa. I brought in Ron Sosa because he is such a wonderful coach. He is so good at having the hard conversation, and that's actually the mailbag that we have today. We've received a mailbag from a practice manager who has to have the odor conversation. Y 'all already know what I'm talking about. We've had team members before who maybe body odor has been a little offensive to clients and to the teams. And we now have to have a discussion with that individual team member.

1:30Ron Sosa: However, in this particular mailbag, it's not exactly body odor. It's actually cigarette smoke. So this practice manager is dealing with a team member who obviously has the habit of smoking and comes in kind of smelling like cigarette smoke. Now they do have a handbook policy. They've had to send this individual home before, and it's still an issue. And so they're wondering like, how do I even have this conversation with this individual now that we've been here and we've had the conversation in the past? And so obviously that is why I brought on Ron Sosa. We talk a lot about how to have this conversation without embarrassing the individual.

2:01Ron Sosa: We talk a lot about what we're allowed to say, not allowed to say. We talk a lot about like the setting, the atmosphere. And then we also talk about in general, what does follow-up look like? How do we measure success? All of these things, I think they're super important when we're talking about the actual individual and supporting our teams through this kind of awkward conversation. And so if this sounds familiar to you, if you've been here in the past, or perhaps suspect that you might be here in the future,

2:24Maria Pirita: I want to take a moment to talk here about something that hits close to home for all of us that are working in the vet clinic. We all know that veterinary medicine isn't just a career path. If it were just a job, we'd probably all have much cleaner clothes and way lower blood pressure. No, it's a calling. It's that thing inside you that keeps you showing up for your patients and your team, even on the days when the coffee machine is broken and the schedule is double booked. Well, our friends at Zoetis get that. They've just launched a new initiative called Care Is Your Calling. It's specifically designed to recognize and support veterinary teams, not just for the work that you do, but for the reason that you do it.

3:03Maria Pirita: And here's the thing. Hundreds of people at Zoetis are actually veterinarians themselves. They've been in the trenches. They understand the realities of daily practice, and they've spent the last 70 years working arm in arm with pros like us to push the profession forward. Everything Zoetis does is about strengthening that partnership, whether it's through clinical tools, reliable solutions you can actually trust in the exam room, or just listening to our feedback to build better resources for the future. They want to support your calling so that you can keep doing what you love. So do me a favor.

3:34Maria Pirita: Go check out careisyourcalling.com. Take a look at the resources they're building for you and your team. That's careisyourcalling.com. All right, let's get back to the show.

3:47Ron Sosa: You're going to want to tune in and let's get into this episode. And now, the Uncharted podcast.

3:58Ron Sosa: Welcome back, Ron Sosa. I am so excited you're here because I, first of all, we had a lovely comment. It sounds like Andy, somebody reached out to Andy and was like, hey, I don't know who that guy you've been having on the podcast recently, but he's great. And Andy's like, Ron Sosa, right? Immediately, because we knew it was you. And so you are getting tons of love from the audience, I got to say. Thank you. People love hearing from you. So thank you so much for joining me again. I wanted to pick your brain about this mailbag that we got because it is sort of a coaching conversation and also kind of an awkward conversation.

4:36Ron Sosa: And so I felt like, you know who the perfect person for this is, is Ron Sosa, because Ron has a way of being able to be direct but kind. And I know that from personal experience. And so I love that about us. But anyway, before we get started, what are you working on? What's getting you excited? How are you doing?

4:50Maria Pirita: I am super excited. The competence cohort that I did with Uncharted, my time there went extraordinary. And I'm doing that now with my own business. And so it's just been, I love watching the impact that is created and doing the, like figuring out the before and after impact of the cohort has been phenomenal because what I would never have expected is for the impact to reach not only just their professional life, which is the assumption, right? but their personal life and how they work with their own children and how they're teaching their kids the tool. That to me surpassed the impact that I thought was possible.

5:28Maria Pirita: So that's what I'm super excited about is giving veterinary professionals their confidence and self-trust back.

5:33Ron Sosa: Yeah. Boy, that is such a beautiful consequence, I think, of some of the work that we do. Really, I see exactly what you're talking about because a lot of times when we do communication at Uncharted, some of the feedback that I get is I've started using this with my family or I've started using this with my partner. And it is just so wonderful because it's so true. A lot of the leadership skills that we talk about, whether we learn about them in Uncharted or in general, a lot of the leadership skills do transfer over to your family, right? Like being able to build psychological safety, being able to build trust, you know, feedback.

6:04Ron Sosa: It is significantly harder to give my husband feedback than it is for my team members. But a lot of it ends up being very similar to what we learn. And at the same time, I just, that's what I love about these skills is they're very transferable. So I'm not surprised by that is what I'm saying. And I think you are just such a light in veterinary medicine. So I'm glad that people have you as a resource. And we'll definitely put in the show notes where people can reach you directly or find more of you. But for right now, I do have a very specific mailbag for you, which I think you are the perfect person for, for multiple reasons.

6:34Ron Sosa: One, we've done this like war on cigarettes before, which I think is kind of funny. Yeah. On cigarette breaks and how important cigarette breaks were. And this is not this. And like, that was a joking episode. Obviously we were more talking about breaks and bringing down break, bringing back breaks, but we have somebody, somebody, but we have a mailbag from somebody who is dealing with a team member who likes to take cigarette smoke breaks. The only issue is that they're coming back into the clinic, smelling like cigarette smoke after their breaks. And now in the mailbag, they flat out said, you know, that they don't have a problem with what this person chooses to do in their personal time.

7:09Ron Sosa: It's just the fact that, you know, the team and clients are noticing this odor. And they didn't say they have a general dress code policy where it addresses hygiene in their employee handbook. But it doesn't necessarily address cigarette odor. It just says odor as a blanket statement. And the policy is, like, they have to go home and change. And they have sent this person home to change in the past. But they come back and they still smell like the cigarette smoke. They're, like, assuming maybe they're smoking in the house. You know, maybe they're smoking on the way back in from changing. And then it feels like this really awkward situation because it's like, do I send them home again because they still smell like cigarette smoke?

7:47Ron Sosa: They've considered adding the policy to their handbook, you know, but they also just don't know exactly how to approach it where it would actually make sense. And I guess the main part is like, I thought they were so sweet. They don't want to embarrass the employee or make them feel judged for smoking. They want to be respectful. and at the same time, they do feel responsible for maintaining a professional and comfortable environment for their clients and their team. So like their main question is, can I actually tell the employee that they can't come to work smelling like cigarettes? Should I update the handbook first and then have this conversation?

8:20Ron Sosa: Or how do I have this conversation without it turning into like a much bigger issue? Which I thought were all really great questions. And so before we jump in, like into all of this, what do you think is the actual problem that we're trying to solve here?

8:34Maria Pirita: Okay, so bear with me because I think the actual problem is not the problem here. The actual problem is a manager who is carrying this emotional weight of having to tell something uncomfortable to their team member, right? So every day, every week that we avoid this, co-workers are talking, the clients are noticing, and that person becomes the last to know about their body odor or their cigarette smell or whatever. So the delay, it might feel kind, but it's actually probably the coolest option that we can give this employee.

9:09Ron Sosa: Yeah, I think you're spot on. And I'm so glad you brought up the body odor conversation because I feel like that's the most common one that we see, right? Is this person needs more deodorant or this person needs to like, we have a body odor situation. I have been in the cigarette smoke situation, so I'm happy to talk about it in a minute. But that's kind of where I drew a lot of my information from. I was just like, it comes down to the same thing. Oftentimes, we don't tell the person that they have this body odor or we don't have the conversation because of that secondhand embarrassment. Yeah.

9:40Ron Sosa: But at the end of the day, it is absolutely more embarrassing to me if the whole team is talking about it, like you said. And now I had no idea that this was happening. And I feel so much more embarrassed now because it's been happening for so long. So I agree with you. The kindest thing here is to actually have the conversation, which it sounds like they've started to, at least they've sent this person home to change already. But I think you're calling out one of the beautiful parts of what makes this hard, right? What makes this situation particularly difficult? What else do you think? What else do you think makes this hard besides the actual secondhand embarrassment?

10:14Maria Pirita: Oof, this one, this one can sting, but I think the policy is written wrong.

10:19Ron Sosa: Oh, man. I know what you were talking about because they didn't send us the policy. But the first thing I said was, I wish I could look at the policy in the handbook.

10:28Maria Pirita: Yeah. So the way I think the way it's the way you said it or the way it was written, I'm not sure which was something like we need to send the person home to change. well. And what we found was, and the consequences of sending this person home to change is that they still smelt, right? So our policy, number one, has failed because we've made it very specific, right? Without taking into account that that's not actually going to work. This is often what we do. We nitpick and we get so nitty gritty into policy is that then they become failures. And all we think we need to do is add another line to the policy when really the policy needs to name the negative impact and the positive outcome that we're looking for, right?

11:09Maria Pirita: Like the negative impact is we can't have smells that affect our patients and our team in a negative way, right? Because we know from the fear-free that pets are going to pick up on scents. We know from, we're healthcare professionals, we understand that cigarette smoke and even secondhand, I don't even know if it's secondhand smoke or thirdhand smoke, I think it's called, we're smelling it off of somebody is still dangerous. And so we're medical professionals. I think it is totally valid to have a policy that says that it's an unacceptable smell in the practice. And what we did is we named how to fix it and not the outcome that we're looking for.

11:47Maria Pirita: What we need is an outcome that says that that smell is no longer the impact, right?

11:54Ron Sosa: Yes.

11:54Maria Pirita: And by naming a specific lane to do that, you've taken away not only the person's autonomy to fix it. We've now sent them home, probably, I'm going to imagine, without pay, right? So we've impacted their paycheck. Instead of saying like, hey, maybe it's you go and freshen up with spray. Maybe it's you need to throw your scrubs into the washer dryer. There's so many action items we can get into here. But I think the policy itself is written wrong as the starting point.

12:21Ron Sosa: Yeah, and we'll definitely get into those action items. I love where you're going with all of that, but that is truly where I wanted to start with this as well, because I was right there with you. We need a better policy that really addresses the why behind all of this. And I love that you brought in fear-free because I actually have had the situation in the opposite part. And it was a conversation that I had to have and the policy stated the odor specific and it stated why we do it, right? The animals can pick up on that scent. They're trying to figure out why you're hiding your scent. It makes them more nervous, more uneasy.

12:49Ron Sosa: So we at this clinic try to avoid wearing heavy perfumes. However, we do, you know, obviously freshen up, you're allowed to have whatever deodorant in your locker, whatever you need to do. However, we just avoid the heavy odors. And so I think that that is going to be super important. You're not really managing the cigarette, you're managing the workplace impact. How does it impact the patients? How does it impact the team? And I think that that's kind of where we need to start with some of this. So in general, like, where do you think that we draw the line between an employee's personal choices and an employer's right to establish workplace expectations?

13:22Ron Sosa: Because the question here is, am I allowed to tell them not to smoke? And obviously, you and I know that answer right here. You're not allowed to tell them that they can't smoke outside of work. But what can we do? And I know that you have had some specific policies that we've talked to in the past, which is why I really wanted to pick your brain around this. But yeah, so tell us a little bit about that. Where would you draw the line between the the employees' personal choices, and then obviously the workplace expectations.

13:49Maria Pirita: Yeah, I go back to what you said so beautifully last, like a minute ago, which is the impact of that smell, right? The impact of something being overpowering, the impact of the thing, right? I don't necessarily tell you you can or cannot smoke, but I need to tell you that the smoke smell is a negative impact on the practice, and that's something that we can't tolerate. And then make sure that if you're going to create policy, right, that we actually are willing to die on that hill, right? If we're going to create policy and you're going to make exceptions to the rule, like, oh, well, it's fine for the veterinarian to do it and not the technician to do it.

14:28Maria Pirita: Or it's fine for this person because they've been here for 25 years, but we're not going to allow the new person to do it. Like, is that a policy that you can hold across the board to all team members, regardless of who they are, and willing to stand on that policy through the end.

14:44Ron Sosa: Yes. I love that you mentioned that. Originally, one of the questions that I had is like, what makes this hard? And I talked about, well, obviously the whole secondhand embarrassment makes this hard. Also, I think what makes this difficult is sometimes we don't want to have this conversation because usually if we value this individual, if we like their skillset, if we think that they're a value to the practice, then obviously we get afraid that if we have this conversation that they're going to get mad and then quit and leave, right? And so I think that that's a very real possibility for all of us in management.

15:15Ron Sosa: And so at the end of the day, we sit there and we wonder, is it worth it to have this conversation? Is it worth it for me to lose a team member over this situation? Now, I will caution people because I do think that you have to consider that. You have to consider your policy with the hill that you're willing to die on. if you enforce it, know that there's a slight chance, perhaps, that the individual may not want to work there anymore because you're enforcing that policy. Now, I'm going to give you an example too, because if you allow it to happen, you're also setting a standard for all the future employees, which is exactly what you were kind of mentioning.

15:48Ron Sosa: And I remember in practice, so originally, mind you that this clinic opened up in the 90s a long time ago, like early 90s. So this clinic that I worked at had a policy where you couldn't have like any off color hair that wasn't natural, essentially. So no blue hair, no pink hair, no like all these bright colored hairs. And this was the policy at this practice. They were kind of laid back about tattoos. The practice owner had tattoos, but they couldn't have this kind of hair. And I remember this specifically because I was like, that seems kind of silly, but OK, like whatever. I'm not planning on dyeing my hair so it doesn't affect me directly.

16:21Ron Sosa: And I remember the policy only because by the time I became a practice manager at this location, we were hiring an inventory manager, incredibly skilled, great veterinary technician skills, great inventory management skills. I was excited to hire her on, but I had talked to my practice owner. I said, well, here's the thing. She's got bright red hair. That's not technically not a natural color, but like it was this like bright, like red, red, not orange. You know what I mean? So I was like, you could tell it was not natural.

16:52Maria Pirita: A clown nose red is what I would like. Yes, exactly.

16:54Ron Sosa: Yeah. Like almost burgundy red. Like it was definitely not. So before I wanted to make sure I set the expectation with this individual. Right. So I'm talking to my practice owner and I said, hey, just, you know, this hair color is super bright red. I don't know if this is one that, you know, draws the line or not for you. And he's like, well, red is technically a hair color. So it's not. And then I was like, I hear that. Here's a situation. if you allow it, you're setting the standard. And I'm just letting him know, it's like, if people see one person doing it, they're gonna think that it's okay for them to do it.

17:25Ron Sosa: I'm like, so just know that that's where we might be at in the future. And he's like, yeah, I guess we could probably become a little bit more relaxed about that policy. Okay, I don't think we're gonna run into that, but yeah, it's fine. You can just, I was like, okay, fine. So at this point, we hired this individual. We had them on the team for a few months. It was only about like maybe four months in. that all of a sudden my receptionist comes in with bright blue hair. And I loved her hair. It looked cool. And again, I didn't have a problem with colored hair. So I come up and I'm like, hey, your hair is blue.

17:58Ron Sosa: That's so cool. And she goes, yeah, is that going to be okay? I noticed in the handbook, I was like, oh, so you knew the policy and you did it. And she's like, yeah. And I was like, okay, cool. She's like, I'm glad. I told her, I was like, I'm glad you asked. And she's like, well, because I noticed so-and-so's hair. And I was like, I knew it. I knew that was going to happen. I just, I knew that was going to happen. So, you know, I told her, I was like, no, I totally get it. I think that that policy might need updating. Let me talk to the practice owner before we move forward on anything. Right.

18:30Ron Sosa: And, and just, just have that discussion. And so my practice owner was like, yes, we can, we can update the policy. It's fine. Like I didn't like it early in the nineties. I feel like it's a lot more accepted now. You know, it's one of those things. I was like, yeah, absolutely. So we were fine with it. But the reason I tell you that story is because I truly think that sometimes when we have these kinds of policies, just know that if we are allowing this person, because they didn't say what position they're in. Like if this is a veterinarian, for example, if this is a veterinarian that's coming in smelling like smoke and you're not addressing it because of their skills or because of their position or who they are, not only do you open up yourself to a discrimination suit if you do enforce it somewhere else, but it also sets the standard.

19:10Ron Sosa: And so other people will start to notice it. And so just know that if it's like somebody who's on the reception team, for example, and you're not enforcing that rule, that policy, there could be a situation in the future where you're put in a situation where you feel like you should enforce it. And now you can't because you set the standard already.

19:30Maria Pirita: I'll take it like a step further, right? So, okay, we allowed this one person to smell like smoke, right? And maybe they're the 25-year-old new veterinary assistant, But now we've hired two years later, we've hired, you know, somebody who's 45. And all of a sudden we're like, hey, we can't tolerate this. We're not going to do it. We're going to have to let you go because they're all they're, quote unquote, in their 90 days. By the way, probationary period really doesn't actually exist in the eyes of law. And so what happens is now you have an unintentional age bias, right? You've created discriminatory practice without even realizing that you're doing it because we didn't remember.

20:09Maria Pirita: how we treated people based on whatever it was, gender, sex, religion, et cetera, et cetera. All of that can play a card and you won't even know it because they said, well, so-and-so was 25 and I'm 45 and therefore I'm being discriminated against. Open the door for discrimination. That's not something I want to be on the other end of.

20:31Ron Sosa: Yes. Yes. I totally agree. I'm right there with you. This is one of those situations where I think you have to lean on what your handbook says. You have to lean into trying to do this as fairly as you possibly can. And then like you said, try to avoid the lawsuits in general for discrimination that we could be seeing if we're in this situation. I do also think when it comes to that question, where do we draw the line on their personal behavior versus in the clinic? There's something that I think is really important. Veterinary clinics can be smoke-free work areas. And a lot of times it's because we have oxygen tanks and things like that.

21:08Ron Sosa: Like that could be a very serious situation. I think even there's been veterinary clinics that I've been at where I've seen them tell people that even outside the building, they have to go 15 feet away.

21:16Maria Pirita: That was my practice. So we had three practices before I left. And so we had a smoke-free campus and that included clients and team members. And so you wanted to smoke, you had to get in your car and leave the grounds and the property because we felt that strongly that if we are medical professionals, then we shouldn't act in a way that looks like against medicine. And so it was very much caring for the employees, making sure that healthy habits are created. And obviously, we can't stop people from smoking, but I don't want clients to see that you smoke. I don't want to have smoke smell on the grounds.

21:53Maria Pirita: And I capitalize on the fact that it is now like we can have on private property. smoke-free environments. And we totally did that. And I will tell you, I had probably five out of the 105 employees who were still smokers and absolutely hated it and probably were cursing me to this day for the time period that they worked for us. But honestly, it's something I truly believed in as a fellow practice owner that it was something we were willing, that was a hill we were willing to die on. Yeah.

22:23Ron Sosa: No, I mean, I think it's a super important point. State laws can absolutely protect lawful off-duty tobacco use and employees, employers should be cautious about how restrictions are written and enforced in our handbooks. At the same time, while employees have personal autonomy, I think employers have legitimate interest in maintaining safe and functional workspaces. And that might mean in a veterinary setting, having a smoke-free establishment. The fact that smoking is legal doesn't automatically prevent an employer from addressing its workplace effects. And so I think that that is what I would lean on here.

22:57Ron Sosa: No, I would never try to tell somebody whether they can or cannot smoke off the clock. You can protect your workplace. And so I would definitely lean there. Is there anything else from a headspace perspective that you want to touch on before we get into some action steps? Because I'm really excited.

23:12Maria Pirita: I find it still so funny in this age that we're at, right? And especially being in veterinary medicine. Like we get anal glanded and we get parvo smell on us. And yet we're still so afraid to tell someone that there's smoke smell or they have a body odor. I'm still so shocked at this day and age that we are so scared of having this conversation still.

23:35Ron Sosa: Well, you know, it's funny because I think part of it does depend on your psychological safety, right? In the practice. And like, I think that that makes a big difference because I I'll tell you if I'm on a team where I feel comfortable like ron if you and i are working closely together and you're you know you've got some body odor going i have no problem telling you like hey ron i think you need to reapply that deodorant and you'd be like oh shoot my bad let me go do it right but it's because you and i have good psychological safety built in those areas where it becomes difficult i do almost want to question like why can we not bring that up with each other because you're right if i had gotten anal blinded i'm gonna get mad that you didn't say something you mean you let me walk into those rooms smelling like booty?

24:16Ron Sosa: I'm like, no, that is not okay. So I don't know. I think some of it has to, I think I'm glad you brought that up because some of it does have to do with psychological safety. This was a little bit tough, I think, because when it's like body odors and stuff like that, sometimes we don't want to embarrass them. Sometimes there could be a real medical condition and we understand that. Sometimes with smoking, I think we're afraid that the individual is going to take it the wrong way because we're now addressing a behavior of theirs that I'm sure a lot of people do judge, you know what I mean? Like whether we want to admit it or not, people judge me when I'm stuffing my face with donuts.

24:48Ron Sosa: Like it happens, you know, like to me too, that would be an uncomfortable conversation. And so I think that all of those things make this hard. At the end of the day, you have to protect your practice. You have to protect your culture. You have to protect the standards that you're, you're trying to set. And at the end of the day, you had to do what's kindest to that individual, which is obviously addressing the problem. And And that's what we got to do.

25:08Maria Pirita: Yeah. And the last headspace thought I had was, and I think that the question is really based around that, is make sure that we're going into this without shame, right? There's already enough shame in vet med. We want to make sure that we're protecting their dignity. So when we get into action items, to me, that should be top of mind. How do we protect dignity in this person?

25:26Ron Sosa: Yeah. Well, let's get into it. Want to take a break right here?

25:28Maria Pirita: Yeah, let's do it.

25:31Ron Sosa: You believe that Uncharted is turning 10? That's right. Uncharted Vet Media Conference is celebrating 10 years and you're going to want to be there. It is happening on January 15th, 2027 and registration is open right now. Uncharted Vet.com. Hope to see you there. All right, let's get into this. We've got the situation going on and it's time to get into some of these action steps. Let's say you're the practice manager, Ron. What should you do before approaching the employee? What would you do yourself before approaching the team member?

26:00Maria Pirita: First, I would, is this something that I experienced myself or is it something that's been brought to my attention? If it's something that's been brought to my attention, I don't want to pull someone aside. Just like I would for anything that's been brought to my attention, we need to investigate.

26:15Ron Sosa: Literally, my thing was first, identify what you've personally observed rather than relying entirely on complaints. So we're right on the same bar.

26:23Maria Pirita: Things have backfired in my face. Like I have been that early, like, you know, green practice manager where it's like, oh, somebody complained, let me go and deal with the problem. And I did not investigate and I put my foot right in my mouth. Right. And so definitely, is this actually a problem? I can't tell you how many people is like, I think this person smells like alcohol. I'm like, that is their cologne. It just has a little bit more of an alcohol smell. Right. Like this is not somebody who's drunk at work. And so definitely figure out what is real. Notice it yourself. Right. and don't act what people are saying.

26:56Ron Sosa: Yeah. And on that note, I think it's really important to assess the actual workplace impact. So like I would avoid exaggerated statements about like, you know, the patient safety, but do be real about it. Like it does make them wary if there are these smells, right? That they don't like. And so same with clients' satisfaction without evidence, right? Like if we know that clients have mentioned this, I'm gonna investigate and figure out which client, when was it? Maybe it was a day when, you know, know, this individual like didn't get a chance to have enough time for their break, right? And that's that way they know like, oh, well, I do remember that day.

27:30Ron Sosa: I did have one on the way to work. And maybe I didn't, you know, change my script top before that, what have you. But if you have the complaint notice and information, then they can actually draw those lines and those conclusions. We don't always have that. That's fine. But if you have it, I would definitely look at it.

27:44Maria Pirita: For me, the next couple of things are going to be where are we going to have this conversation, right? Do you actually have a private office or do you not? And if you don't, because there's practices out there that don't have private offices, where are you going to have a conversation? Right? When we think about dignity first, we don't want to have this conversation out in the treatment room floor, right? In front of other people. We don't want to have where clients are. We want to be able to protect their dignity in a private space. So that could mean at the end of the shift, if it is something that is sort of tolerable throughout the day, or if it's really offensive.

28:16Maria Pirita: Where are we going to pull this person at and have this conversation? And the biggest thing that I have seen, and I can't say that I haven't done this myself, is stop hinting at it, right? Don't send them smoke sprays to help get rid of it. Don't give them the gift basket. Don't send them anonymous little notes in their locker, right? Don't like all team hygiene memo. memo this conversation stop trying to minimize the conversation for your own comfort because all we are doing is making it cooler and cooler on the person when everyone knows it

28:52Ron Sosa: i'm so glad you mentioned it because i know there is a practice manager somewhere that sent out a gift basket with deodorant in there one day hoping that they got the message that's so lovely i love it and also like it feels so awkward if you have that whole team memo around team hygiene. And then the following week, you're pulling that individual aside, like, Hey, I knew it was like, Oh, so that one meeting was just about me. Like, you know,

29:15Maria Pirita: that hurts. We don't allow rumors to happen, right? Like we shut rumors down. No, you just created the rumor because everyone knows who you're talking about. Right. Yeah. Without even realizing it.

29:28Ron Sosa: Yeah. Such, such a good point. I think part of the action steps here before you officially have the conversation is like, also we talked about the handbook policy. If you are updating the handbook policy now, because you recognize that like go home and change is how to fix it. Not necessarily like the actual policy of the impact of the odor and, and why we do the things that we do. And then also what the expectation is that we, you know, if you're going to update it, you should call that out in the conversation. And I, and I mean that because I would say something around the sense of just like, Hey, this is on me.

30:01Ron Sosa: I recognize that the expectation wasn't very clear, right? And for that reason, you know, I'm going to go ahead and update this so that we understand. But either way, I do think that if you are changing something on the handbook, we need to address the fact that like, that's on me and I might have not made this very clear. Only because if we're now setting a new expectation, you know what I mean? Like, it's not necessarily fair to that person to write them up then and be like, oh, well, if you don't shape up, I'm writing you up. You start from square one at that point. Exactly, exactly. You got to start at square one because otherwise it's like, you got to take ownership that the policy then itself was not written in a way that made it clear.

30:39Ron Sosa: If, if that's how it was, if the policy itself was written and it's very clear, because again, we didn't get a chance to see it and it's very clear and they still broke it. Well, that's a different story, but I'm just saying, I'm sure there's somebody listening to this podcast being like, oh, I need to update that policy in my handbook.

30:53Maria Pirita: And so, and I probably, again, like rumor mill prevention is I probably am not going to update that one policy and send it out, right? Because - Thank you. Start from a mill. I think I would probably like, what things can I update? Now it's time to review section five of my handbook and I'm going to update 12 things, right? That I've now realized like I should be naming the impact and not how they should handle it. Let's update those 12 things and like slide that on in there and get new signatures or whatever that may be. Or it might be, you're going to have to like Like sit with that handbook for a little bit longer, right?

31:27Maria Pirita: Ride through it so not everybody is like naming that person. And then you bring it up at a team meeting three months from now when everything is cooled off.

31:35Ron Sosa: Yeah, absolutely. And in general, I'm a big fan of practice management being able to update their handbook yearly if we can because laws change. Things need to be updated. I know that it becomes really difficult. There's somebody right now listening in. They're like, I haven't updated in five years. That's okay. Like just, no, it's time to update it then. Like it's just to update it. And with that, definitely you can always consult an HR or an employment lawyer for these things too. If you have an EAP, an employee assistance program, they're a great resource for these things. Because I know that it can be kind of scary to think I got to update my employee handbook.

32:06Ron Sosa: Or in general, if you're considering a new restriction or disciplinary action, you know, or if a protected issue might be involved here, kind of like this smoking situation. You always want to seek counsel with what you have, you know, like whether it's your clinic's lawyer or whether it's that EAP program. but it's definitely worth considering. Anything else before you officially have the conversation that you would want to make sure to have planned out?

32:31Maria Pirita: Yeah, I would say I would probably, and you've probably heard me say this a million times, Maria, I was like, let's wipe out the story that we've created for ourselves, right, about the other person. Like we need to go in there, blank slate, get curious, just like any other conversation we're going to have with a coworker, but like take the story out of your head and like, okay, you may have created one because our minds love to do that. And let's remove that story before the conversation.

32:56Ron Sosa: Yeah, that's a great way to do it, especially if you are carrying any kind of bias yourself. You know what I mean? Like, which we all have, we all carry them. Like we all carry them. You know, whether it's like, oh, my mother was a smoker for 35 years and that's why I hate it. Whether it's, you know, whatever bias you might be had, just recognize that it might be there and it's gonna help you get there. Yeah. How do you actually start this conversation without embarrassing or alienating the employee? And I know you already kind of started there because you said, well, the location is really important.

33:24Ron Sosa: You're not going to do it out where everybody can see, but what else can we do to, beyond having the conversation privately and promptly to kind of lower that?

33:32Maria Pirita: Yeah, the way I would handle this conversation is like, say it in the first 30 seconds, like, hey, this is going to be really awkward and I care about you, right?

33:42Ron Sosa: Yeah.

33:43Maria Pirita: Right off the bat, like, this is awkward for me, just like it's awkward for you to receive it. And I've noticed that there's a really strong odor over the past day, week, whatever. And I want you to hear it from me privately. That's how I would start that conversation. And then what is so hard for all of us, shut up. Shut up. Shut up. Stop talking. Don't, don't. I like, I call sandbagging the conversation and trying to qualify what you're saying is you just be quiet and let them process and hear it. and then once they have processed and they have questions is there anything i can do to help you is what can i do to support you because they might name medical changes they might have like named some stress in their life and like why they're doing it and it's really hard to quit and all of the things like i've really tried i'm on this medication to try and quit like i'm down to a pack a day instead of three packs a day like they could tell you all of these things you will never hear it if you just don't close your mouth and listen yeah right yes and what can I do as the manager of this practice, as the owner of this practice, what can I do to support you in this change?

34:51Maria Pirita: Because it's what we can't have happen, right? The impact is what we can't have happen.

34:55Ron Sosa: Yeah. Oh man, you are so spot on. The opening that you did there was so beautiful because you're calling out that awkwardness and I'm right there with you. Like I would say something around, Hey, this is good. This might feel a little uncomfortable, but I also wanted to bring it to your attention before it blew up into something else, right? Like I wanted to have I wanted to reach out to you privately because I care about you. Like you're just starting out from that place of caring. And then I love that you took that conversation into support, right? Like what can I do to help you? The truth is for a lot of people that might be smokers, they might not even notice it anymore.

35:30Ron Sosa: Like they might not notice the smell because they're around it so much. I genuinely have a fear of that with my own body odor. Like I will straight up ask people, hey, like you don't smell me, right? because like you just at some point you're around it so often that like you don't notice it anymore and so I think that that's a very smart way to support someone to be able to say like what can I do like because they might say well I don't even notice it myself like maybe maybe I do need to keep an extra pair of scrubs here you know what I mean that's washed within the clinic so that it doesn't smell that way maybe I just need you to tell me in a kind way and give me a reminder what is that reminder between the two of us really look like you know I think all of that really goes into that support.

36:09Maria Pirita: I will happily stock mouthwash and body spray in the bathrooms. That's an easy, cheap way. And if that helps my smokers not be fired, then I will happy to keep good talent with mouthwash and body spray in the bathroom.

36:22Ron Sosa: Yeah, absolutely. I'm right there with you. So what if the employee becomes like defensive or says something like, I'm allowed to smoke on my break. So why does it even matter? Or something along those lines.

36:32Maria Pirita: Yeah, I think I would agree. Like, yeah, you are absolutely allowed to smoke on your break and your time off 100 % and stick to the impact. What we can't have is the smell, the after effects of that habit or that whatever you're doing on your time off impact our patients and our colleagues around us.

36:51Ron Sosa: I couldn't reach through the screen right now, grab your face with both cheeks and just like, thank you so much, Ron Sosa, because you just started your conversation with agreement is what I love. You know, oftentimes we want to battle that. so much because they're becoming defensive, but disagreement only hurts the conversation more, right? It's the same way that like, if you have a client that's like, well, my breeder says, and you're like, well, your breeder is wrong. Now we're starting the conversation from disagreement versus saying something like, oh, well, I love that you're getting multiple, you know, recommendations that shows you really care about your patient.

37:26Ron Sosa: Now we're coming to agreement. So it's the same situation here. They're getting defensive. They're like, well, I'm allowed to smoke. Why does it matter? I would totally come from agreement. Like, yeah, you are totally allowed to smoke. And I want you to have that right. That sounds really important to you. This is about the impact of the practice. How can I support you there? And then bringing it back to that impact. So acknowledge their point without getting pulled into the argument. Re-center that conversation on the impact and the expectation. And then also I would say, don't assume that defensiveness means the employee is unwilling to cooperate.

37:57Ron Sosa: I think that that's also important.

37:59Maria Pirita: I love that you said that, especially because I always come from a neuro-inclusive perspective. And I'm like, sometimes feedback feels like rejection and rejection sensitive dysphoria for some of our neurodivergent folks is real and they need to process. And we have a Ferrari engine when it comes to emotions and boom, right. And we need to allow them to process what they're feeling and what they're going through. And then not just hear that as a fight, but just as a listen, like I'm here to support you. I understand that this is upsetting you. And as long as this is respectful, then we can, and I can just continue to listen to your emotions.

38:35Ron Sosa: Yeah. I love that. I think it's so, so smart. I love asking the team member for the solutions that they think are realistic. There are a lot more bought in usually when the solutions come from them. And if they do say like, oh, I don't know, like, okay, well let's, let's think about this. Like where, you know, what would make you most comfortable, right? Like, do you like going home and changing every time that like you know okay well then what if we had scrubs here right and i might start interjecting some ideas but the the the hope is that they're all coming from that individual because whatever makes them comfortable whatever they're bought in they're more likely to do in the future so like yeah if you're telling me you're gonna stop moth wash for me like yeah i'll do that you know what i mean so i think that that's really important i do think it's also important to not make any promises or legal assertions about break right break rights that haven't been verified or anything like that.

39:25Ron Sosa: And what I mean by that is like, you know, oftentimes we'll be like, well, you can't smoke within 15 feet of a building because of this, yada, yada, yada. It's just like, well, that's true. But again, we're coming from disagreement instead of agreement, right? Like we're fighting over and over again. And I think that that does a disservice to the conversation that we're trying to have. So what happens if we've had the conversation, clarified expectations, offered some reasonable solutions, and the problem continues. Like in this case, you know, the mailbag submitter was very much like, well, she'll go home and change, comes back, and we still smell like cigarette smoke.

39:57Ron Sosa: So in that kind of case, what would you do there?

40:00Maria Pirita: It's a follow-up conversation about the impact. Hey, I noticed you went home and changed. Thank you so much for trying to do that. What I am noticing still is that there is a really, like, there is really, what was the right word? Obnoxious. No, obnoxious is going to be defensive, but there's still like a intense smell from cigarettes.

40:19Ron Sosa: Noticeable.

40:21Maria Pirita: There's a noticeable smell coming from the cigarettes and that is still impacting our patients, our clients and our team. And so what are some ways, like now that we've tried changing, obviously that's not working here in this situation. Are there other things that we can help support you with? And maybe it is reiterating, Hey, mouthwash in the bathroom. Would you like to put mouthwash in the thing? Do you want to have a body spray that you leave with us? Do you want to keep multiple pairs of scrubs that we have paid for for you here? And then you change here so you don't have to drive all the way home and then have multiple factors for making that change.

40:57Ron Sosa: Yeah. Yeah. You're so spot on. I love the follow-up rather than, you know, like trying to pretend like we've never had this conversation. I'm a big fan. This is where I was talking about earlier in the episode where I was like, you know, acknowledge that there might be something wrong with the policy and be able to say like, Like, hey, I love that you went home and changed. Thank you so much for doing that for the team. There's still a noticeable odor coming from this cigarette smoke that we've got. And maybe that wasn't the right solution. I'm afraid maybe I wasn't as specific in our handbook policy moving it into what kind of barriers are you running into, right?

41:32Ron Sosa: Like, was it on the way here? You know, like, maybe we do need to keep the scrubs there. But like, acknowledging the fact that they did go home and change, acknowledging the fact that perhaps, you know, the policy, if all it says is, you know, that we're just need to go home and change and come back, might have some holes in it. But really then seeking the guidance from them, right? Like I'm trying to apply the standard consistently across comparable situations. And so like, how do we do that? Right? And so I think that progressive discipline may be appropriate for repeated, substantiated violations, knowing that if you get to the repeated violation situation, you may end up getting to the point of dismissing this individual, letting them go, and making sure that you're okay with that for the situation.

42:16Ron Sosa: The only reason why is because I don't, I'm not a fan of like saying, hey, this is the policy. This is what you have to do. And then you set the expectation and then you let them, you know, not that you don't follow the policy. And now, well, you've made this threat of letting them go, but you didn't follow through. so everything else then, every other policy is going to feel the same way. It's just like, well, they didn't let me go because of this, so can I break this policy? Well, they didn't let me go because of this, so can I break this policy?

42:45Maria Pirita: Those actions and consistency is what creates culture. I mean, that's a whole talk, but that's what we're really talking about here.

42:52Ron Sosa: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think you're right. I think we got to, that's just what it comes down to is if we've had this conversation over and over again, and there was a whole, if we had this conversation over and over again, and there was a hole in the policy, we need to address that. If there wasn't a hole in the policy and it was very clear, and now this person went and changed and they came back, I might address it even further and be like, we need more solutions. And if it's still happening over and over again, I think that's when we need to have those disciplinary conversations. Just know you need to act when you say you're going to act.

43:24Ron Sosa: Oftentimes I feel like we forget the follow-up or we'll have one conversation, things will go well for like a month. And then it's like, we start back at ground zero. You know what I mean? And it's just like, technically it should have been a continuation if we set that expectation that we were going to follow up in 30 days, right? So for my final question, Ron Sosa, because I know we're running out of time here, what's the biggest leadership lesson practice managers should take away from the situation?

43:47Maria Pirita: Oh, that's a good one. Don't be afraid of hard conversations, I think is number one, right? Because the amount that you hold on to is actually greater than the conversation itself. Like this is what I see. Like to me, I see this as like, I hold on to all these hard conversations. And honestly, that's what leads to some of the practice manager burnout, right? Don't burn yourself out by holding on to conversations that just need to be had. The uncomfortableness is way better to have and even fail at than the burnout for yourself and then how that will affect the practice and your team. Yeah.

44:26Ron Sosa: And I would say, you know, like this conversation as awkward as it is, it's going to keep happening. You're like, I don't, I've not met a practice manager who only had to have the body odor conversation once so far, you know what I mean? Whether it's body odor, cigarette smoke, whether it's odor in general, like cologne, I already told you I've had to have it three different ways, body odor, cologne, and cigarette. So it's just like, just know that these conversations, they happen. The more reps that you get into it, the more practice that you get and the easier that they do become over time. For me, consistency matters.

44:56Ron Sosa: Employees are more likely to trust expectations when they understand the reasoning behind it and see them applied fairly across the entire team. And so I think that that's the most important.

45:07Maria Pirita: Boundaries, right? Like despite the fact that we hate to enforce them, we love boundaries. We love to know where we stand. Our rules are going to be applied equally, right? And so people, as a general rule, as a human race, we like to test our boundaries and there are going to be be people that are going to test the boundaries. So consistency matters. The other thing I want to make sure that we, we think about the flip side, right? Cause we're always thinking on that. Well, what if they don't improve? What if they don't improve? Right? Like, well, what if they do now, what are you going to do?

45:38Maria Pirita: And I would say definitely name the improvement at least one time and never mention it again, right? Dignity intact. Hey, I noticed that there's been a significant difference in how you've been coming in and not having that smoke, any smoke smell anymore, I'd really appreciate how much effort you put into that and leave it at that. I would never mention it again because I want to save their dignity.

46:00Ron Sosa: Like, yeah, yeah, I don't want to

46:03Maria Pirita: overharp it and say, you didn't smell great. You smelled great today. Good job. You smelled great today. Good job. Right. Like start to deplete their dignity.

46:11Ron Sosa: At some point, I'm going to roll my eyes and be like, can you just shut up about that?

46:14Maria Pirita: Like, do we have to harp on that all the time. But it's it's us wanting to like make them feel better, which actually does the exact opposite.

46:22Ron Sosa: Yeah, that's so true. I love that you mentioned that because it definitely happened to me, not necessarily with that situation. But like when you make a mistake, and it gets mentioned over and over again, actually reminds me of Ted Lasso. So what was it? I don't know if you meant to Ted Lasso, but a lot of people are into it right now because a new season. But there's this one point where like, Nate, one of the coaches like messes up saying something. And I think he said wonder kid instead of wonder kind or something like that and like people keep bringing it up and he gets oh like upset over and over again because he's like it was like it's not what i said but it kind of reminds me of that it's like yeah if you you try to praise them over and over again for this behavior but at the same time like don't overdo it don't overdo it so i love that anything

47:03Maria Pirita: else before we wrap up that was it thank you so much this was a good episode this was fun thank

47:08Ron Sosa: you so much i need to be the perfect person to talk to about this because uh so spot on on so many different things. And in general, you have this way of being like, all right, let's think about what's best for the individual, for the practice, for everyone involved. And so I think that these are common and hopefully this helps quite a few people. So thank you so much.

47:25Maria Pirita: Till next time.

47:26Ron Sosa: Next time. Yeah. See that. And that's what we got. Thank you so much for tuning in today. Thank you so much to Ron Sosa for joining me for this discussion. I had such a great time. I always have a good time talking to Ron, but in general, when it comes to these conversations, I know that they're tough. I know that we always want to do what's kindest. I know that sometimes we can avoid it because they're hard, but at the end of the day, we just got to do what's right for the team and what's right for this individual. If you were the one in the situation, you would definitely want to know that there is a problem and you would want it to be a conversation that comes from curiosity, from compassion.

47:57Ron Sosa: If we need to update policies, we can always do that. But overall, I just hope that you enjoyed this episode and that you got something out of it. If you did, make sure to leave us a review wherever you listen to your podcast and join us for Uncharted 2027 happening January 15th, you're not going to want to miss it. I know we're planning some really cool stuff, stuff they can't even really talk about yet, but it's going to be really cool. The most of the program is already available online. So make sure to put a link in the show notes. Thank you all so much for tuning in and we'll catch you next time.

48:27Maria Pirita: Are you a medical leader who has not invested in themselves recently? Guys, don't miss your chance. The 10 year anniversary of Uncharted Veterinary Conference is coming up in January. January 15th, the day before VMX, come to Orlando, have an incredible time with us, and then stay for the conference. Don't miss it, unchartedvet.com.