#49 - Bread & Jam Festival LIVE - From Startup to Sold, What it Takes to Exit On Top

0:00Hello, hello, hello. Welcome to a very special Bread and Jam live panel from last week's Bread and Jam Summit. This was a fantastic panel all about exiting your business and what that entails. What does it look like? What options are there? We had some brilliant audience participation. We dig into the nitty gritty. How long does it take? What process is involved? How do you make your business look attractive? This is with founders, so I do apologize. It's a slight sidestep from the unfounded mentality, but it's really, really worth listening to. to gear up your business and your work and within to see if you ever want to exit one day what that can look like.

0:32Huge thank you to Aztec and the rest of the team at Bread and Jam for getting this audio recorded. It's absolutely brilliant and I really appreciate being able to share this with all of you. So without further ado let's dig into the episode. Are you a founder of the next exciting food and drink round? Are you looking to scale and grow? Well let me introduce you to Mission Kitchen London's home for food and drink entrepreneurs and sponsor of The Unfounders. Mission Kitchen gives you the equipment, support and community to take your business to the next level. With flexible access to commercial kitchens, expert mentorship on site and a network of hundreds of like-minded founders, this could be exactly what your business needs to level up.

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1:23hello everyone thank you for coming into this wonderful talk um before we get started quickly introduce myself so my name is mitch i work for pact we do organic frozen fruit and veg and on the side i also run a podcast called the unfounders so if you're a founder you wouldn't be welcome the podcast is all about employees and celebrating the unsung heroes within your teams so it's all about the Unsung Heroes. But today we are talking specifically more about founders and business. So quick show of hands in the room, who is looking to exit their business in the next 10 years? How about the next five years?

1:56How about the next three years? Okay, so we've got some people ready to go. So what we're going to focus on today, this talk, as you very much know, is all about the exit strategies and things you can do. And let's speak to our lovely panel. Starting with yourself could you please introduce yourself and let everyone know your businesses sure so the name is john stapleton and um i got to go way back to 1987 which is going to predate most people in the room but we set up new covent garden soup company back then and back then no there wasn't any fresh soup it's kind of weird if you think about it fresh soup is everywhere all liquid soup was in a can so we kind of created that category um and then 10 years later sold the business that was the first exit um and then there was a second business called glencoe foods which was based in the States, and it didn't go so well.

2:42We didn't actually exit. We tried to exit, but we couldn't exit. And the euphemism is like we had a withdrawal from the market, which means we went bust. And then Little Dish was the third business set up in 2007, or more or less then, and we exited that in 2017. Nice, happy commercial exit, successful business at the beginning. Nice, happy commercial exit at the end, and in the middle, a failure, which is why I call that summary of my career, my shit sandwich. There's a lot of shit in between. It's a different topic. We'll talk about the shit bit at some other time. But today, I want to talk a little bit more and answer the questions you guys have on the exits.

3:19These days, that was 2017 when we sold Little Dish. So these days, I'm more involved maybe on the other side of the fence. So I've always had investors involved in the business. We almost always had institutional investors, private equity, venture capital, involved at various stages along the business growth. So these days I'm involved myself, either through Mission Ventures here in the UK, through the Reesdale Foods Fund, which is an Irish-based VC fund designed to invest in food and drink businesses in Ireland. I used to be traveling to Fisher Farms for a bit, which is a vertical farm business.

3:50I'm doing a few other things as well. So these days I do a lot of different things. But mostly I'm sort of poacher-turned-gamekeeper from being an entrepreneur before to being more of an investor today. And I do some angel investing as well. So hopefully I have something to offer of you guys in terms of the topic exit. So you don't do much then? No, I try to keep well away from doing anything. I'll just talk about stuff. And Anna? Hi, so I'm Anna, co-founder and CEO of Two Checks. Two Checks brings innovative, egg-based, convenient products to market that we basically wanted ourselves but couldn't find in the market in the UK.

4:26I launched it in 2007 to introduce the first liquid egg white into retail here after I spotted a gap in the market in the US. We actually sold a majority stake and closed the sale three months ago. I'm Phil. Thanks. So I'm Phil Halesmith, managing partner at a law firm called Jolson. We advise founders and entrepreneurs on everything from start-up to exit. Some of the brands that we've worked with, Two Chicks, we helped Anna and her co-founder close that transaction a few months ago. Earlier this year, we also worked on the sale of Biotiful to Muller, and that's just this year. There's been plenty more in the past.

5:05For example, we work with the founders of Innocent Drinks from foundation to exit to Coca-Cola and have been very fortunate to work with their investment fund, Jamjar Investments, on all of their investments recently, including the sale of Wild in terms of one of the keynotes that we spoke about earlier. Brilliant. So yeah, there's going to be lots to unpick in this. But for just top line, Phil, could you just touch on where the kind of exits that businesses can take? Obviously, there's multiple, so just kind of a few options. But we're obviously talking about an exit sale. But is there any other avenues for anyone who's building a business?

5:38Like what, what could the future look like if you go, okay, someday, I want to move away? Yeah, I mean, listen, there's loads of different options. I mean, the traditional one that is quite common in the food and drink space is a full sale to a strategic investor. So we take Biotiful this year. That was 100 % sale to Muller. The deal we did with Anna was a majority stake. So a strategic investor acquiring the majority of the business. But Anna and her co-founder remain invested in driving growth and hopefully receiving some additional consideration in the future. and then other types of exit options so private equity which again can be a sale but also is usually a way to kind of get some money off the table and then continue to invest in the business and grow the business with a an institutional investor and the other one which isn't talked about that much but is venture capital so when you do a venture capital transaction it's becoming more and more common to do what's called a secondary transaction primary is where you take venture capital money and it goes into the business to help you grow quite often if you've been running a business for a little bit of time venture capital quite often recognizes that founders might want to take some cash off the table which is called a secondary transaction so you negotiate a deal where there's cash that goes into the business to grow and then cash that also is paid to some of the shareholders so they're slightly de-risked but then progress to grow the business going forward so we all know that brand is important right but what if i told you it can impact growth and customer acquisition costs by up to 50 against ordinary are a brand agency who help founders, marketing departments, scaling teams ensure their brand is the most powerful tool for growth.

7:13From brand strategy, tone of voice and visual identity to helping you get retail ready with ongoing brand growth retainers. They really are the full circle agency for growing your brand. B and the team are absolutely fantastic. Just imagine what they could do for your brand. So what are you waiting for? See how they can be your grand growth partners at againstordinary.com. Anna, going over to you. Obviously, the business started from a gap you went we really want this product it doesn't exist was an exit or that strategy ever on the cards from day one or is this something that over time you're like oh actually the business is doing really well maybe we could sell this on one day like how how was that journey and when did you first realize and go oh actually like a sale a sale is an option um so when we wrote the business plan back in 2006 we actually always put a sale as the kind of route that we wanted for the business and then of course at that point you know we didn't even know if we could get a product into the market or launch anywhere so of course there was no time frame on that then as we kind of grew and kind of got listed with all of the major retailers and overseas we started to get some approaches all from egg producers basically in Europe so you know within the industry and then we kind of talked to a couple you know at the time we weren't that happy with you know what they kind of wanted to give or we didn't think it was the right time and then we had another approach and then we got to the point where we thought let's run a process so let's you know just go out to market properly Clearpoint Corporate Finance, there's been a few people interested.

8:35The people that I'd already spoken to, I gave the heads up to. And then we kind of went from there, really. And when did the sale actually go through? Did you say this year, was it? Just three months ago, we closed, yeah. So from 2007 to this year, is that, I mean, Phil, coming back to you, is that a standard length of time? I mean, obviously, every business is different, lots of metrics. But for those in the room who are like, yes, I want to sell within three days, three weeks years 10 10 years whatever it is what what kind of would you say is the time scale to make that happen so if the question is what's the usual time scale in terms of when does a business exit there isn't an answer to that because every business is different and the growth metrics are all different the timing is a really key factor in terms of when you think about you know planning for a sale um and market dynamics as well so you know if we go back two or three years consumer was an extremely hot proposition.

9:27I mean, Freddie from Weil talked about it when they were raising capital, when you were selling businesses. So post-COVID in 21, it was completely crazy. You know, businesses were getting sold and funded at crazy multiples. Obviously, cost of living crisis has changed that dynamic, you know, and a lot of investors and a lot of financial institutions are kind of put off consumer a little bit. And so it's slightly harder at the moment. I mean, I would say that you shouldn't really be thinking about an exit before five to seven years when you start a business because actually what you've got to demonstrate you know is your minimum viable product growth and the ability to scale before you can really have credible conversations with investors or strategic buyers around you know can can this product scale internationally is it possible to sort of take over and become a dominant player within the current market you're in and that just doesn't happen in you know before you know four or five years really let me add to that because i think that's exactly right i mean you're closer to what's happening these days five to seven years, five minimum to seven years seems about right.

10:29Back in the old days during New Covent Garden, it was probably eight to ten, because I think you need that time to demonstrate everything you need to demonstrate. In other words, put it the other way around. If you get out sooner, you're probably leaving money on the table. You're probably leaving value on the table. You're probably leaving potential on the table. It takes that amount of time in the food industry, and it has become shorter. Certainly, it's not maybe eight to ten. It can be, but it's seven or eight right now, because things have changed in the marketplace, and you can scale more quickly and there are more routes to market and DTC didn't exist back then, those sort of things.

10:58So I think generally speaking, if you want to really develop and deliver the potential of your business, you need to stick at it for a few years. And my kind of rule of thumb, which doesn't always apply clearly, is eight years. So the two businesses that we exited, New Covent Garden and Little Dish, they were 10 years. Now, they just happened to be 10 years, but they were 10 years for a reason that we kind of figured out, this is probably too early to sell. It's right now, we have to sell. A lot of factors come down to the other side and what's right for them and who the strategic partner is and timing for other reasons.

11:27But I think eight years is a good kind of rule of thumb to say, before then you're leaving money on the table. And after then you can decide what other factors are important to you. Going back to New Covent Garden Soups and building that brand, when you were building up to the exit, what were the kind of things that you needed to demonstrate to the buyer? Is it EBITDA that's important? What are the main kind of key metrics or things that potential buyers are interested in? Is it points of distribution? from a tangible perspective that people listening can kind of take away? Yeah, sure. And if I go back to those days, again, that was 1998, 10 years after we launched.

12:01We did a trade sale or a strategic sale. With Little Lace, we did a private equity sale. But when New Covent Garden was very much selling, we sold to Daniels, who you probably recognize as a major player now. Back then, they doubled in size when they bought New Covent Garden, which was$25 million roughly in revenue. So they were quite small. It was one of their probably second or third acquisitions. and they were on a very aggressive acquisition trail. To answer your question, it was all about revenue. Number one, it wasn't really about EBITDA. I'm not saying EBITDA is important. From an investment point of view, breaking even is really, really important.

12:30It's like night and day. But once you get past them, there's no real incentive to generate a lot of profit because guess what you do? You just pay tax on the profit and really you should be investing all that profit back into growing your top line again, which again is more important. And then you're into, okay, so revenue, but then you're into quality of revenue. And it's like, you know, there's little point in my experience selling a few pallet loads of stuff to Singapore or to Dubai or whatever it is, because that's like one sale. It adds to your revenue, but it's kind of poor quality revenue.

12:57What good quality revenue looks like is repeat purchase. So retails in the UK, established relationships day in, day out, skew additions, a little bit of NPD, but not NPD that doesn't work, which is really obvious. You've got to choose NPD that does work, which then you are perceived to be somebody who knows what they're doing and knows what they're talking about and expanding the category or moving into new categories. The problem is if you do something that's a bit of a stretch and you do NPD that doesn't work, you then perceive to be, well, a failure, right? So stick to anything and go back.

13:28And then when you're trying to get to your multiple conversation, which is revenue times multiple, you've got a much stronger argument to say that I know what I'm doing and I've demonstrated I know what I'm doing, so my multiple can be two times revenue as opposed to one and a half times revenue, those sort of things. So when you're trying to maximize valuation, which is maybe a different question, it's a question of revenue to start with And then what your multiple is. And a lot of factors are at play with that multiple issue. And these days it's different. Going back to, you know, compared to 1998.

13:57But they were the factors we were looking at. Really important. Grow the top line as much as you possibly can. And demonstrate your MPD works. And don't do things that you kind of hope will work. Because if they don't work, it's a black stain in your copy book. You know, it's like, for example, we thought that we could always take New Covent Garden to the continent. We could always export New Covent Garden. but we never did it properly. We did a bit with Delays. We did a bit with Casino in France. We really just played with it to be able to demonstrate there was a market rather than doing it and screwing it up.

14:31That would demonstrate there's no market, right? So we said, you guys come in and you buy us and you can put a lot of your marketing resources, not just money, but experience behind this and take it to the continent, right? And that is a value-added approach. But pay tomorrow's price today because we could do it ourselves. We had no intention of doing it ourselves. So if it's something that's a bit of a stretch and you think you might get it wrong, if you're in year eight or year nine or year ten, I would say take the conservative approach and don't do it because you might just fuck it up and then that would ruin everything.

14:59So do a little bit and tease it out and demonstrate the opportunity and demonstrate the upside. And make sure you're speaking to a strategic partner. And Anna, coming back to you, in terms of the process you've been through, you said before we came on there was a few things where you got messed around, or things took longer than they should. Now you've kind of gone through the exit. what are some of the learnings and what things would you have changed kind of going oh that wasted a lot of time or money or energy i mean i definitely going back which did affect the exit we at the start we didn't have any money to start up on so we we gave away 20 equity at launch for really not very much money and we had gone for a grant to one of the government councils and i wish and then they kind of said no and we just didn't try again we didn't appeal it so we just did it And we never got that equity back because, and you know, we took a little bit of investment after that kind of over the years, but not since the last 10 years, but not more than below 500k.

15:52The thing was then people get invested themselves. And because it was kind of family and friends, they then were like, oh, waiting for their payout. So you just, that's something I would say never at the very start when your company has no value. So you're basically giving away a ton of equity for no money. I would recommend really trying your hardest not to do that. So I always wished we'd had a kind of mentor and taken an investor that had an active role in the business and had experience of scaling food companies because that was something we really could have done with. And again, another thing, you know, slightly off the point that I would have wished we'd kind of taken on someone as a kind of chairman or something sooner.

16:27And often these people want equity. So I think definitely if you can find an investor who's sold out businesses before or at least scaled them so you have that kind of advice. With the, as part of the sale, obviously with what you were doing at Two Chicks being like liquid egg whites and then as the range expanded, how concerned were you about own label and other kind of players coming into the space that you had? And was that ever part of the conversation or were you able to prove actually as a brand, here's what value we're adding to the category and this is why we're important? Definitely. I mean, when you first launch, no, because until you get to a certain level, they're not even going to try and do own label.

17:01We had a competitor come into the market that was owned by one of the largest UK egg producers, so that was pretty stressful and kind of trashed our pricing and had to recover it, but we kind of managed to outsell them, and that was in three of the major retailers. So we kind of had that. In terms of own label, do all now, which I anticipated. I thought they were always going to be the first, being kind of a premium retailer. We launched into Waitrose. I kind of saw that coming. Yeah, I think it's important. So now that we've sold, we're really focusing on NPD, because, of course, the more you can build up a line of products, the less vulnerable you are the stronger your brand is i think at this point our brand's quite strong in that category so yeah brilliant and i think on that as well like innocent pretty widely known that when that was sold actually they only wanted the smoothie side they didn't want the meal side same with i think bear with yo-yos it was like we just want the yo-yos we're not bothered about all that distraction so phil from from your side in terms of like how important when a brand is looking to sell do the families need to go actually let's have a look at what your your real point of difference is or your real revenue generator is actually an investor may only want that like you might have to detract yourself from the passion around that other product line or that other skew?

18:06Yeah I mean that's I suppose that's a really difficult question. The tricky bit is making sure that the core product range actually is hitting all of those metrics. So you know going back to the question you asked John about is it revenue or EBITDA multiple? Ultimately any investor whether that's financial or strategic is going to want to see that this brand can scale and scale profitably. And so you need to make sure that the core proposition ultimately is going to be that thing that is either going to scale internationally or able to grow through that category and become the category leader in your core markets and then get to a point where your gross margin is generating sufficient percentage that shows that in the future when you get the top line right, that's going to generate profit.

18:50Because ultimately EBITDA isn't a profit number, right? I mean, we all know that. It's actually, you know, it's a calculation that's based on what your P &L looks like. It's not actually profit. So, you know, showing an EBIT number, even if that's not what you're achieving, is really important because ultimately most businesses, you're going to have investors who are going to be looking at your revenue line, revenue growth, but seeing how that will then drop, fall through your P &L so that you can see that there is an EBIT multiple that can be supported. Because, you know, if you get, you know, a revenue multiple that's, let's say, two or three or maybe even four times which you know at the top of the range is probably less achievable right now maybe wild is a different conversation but but ultimately that will always be underpinned by and in the consumer space it's going to probably be hopefully high digit EBITDA multiples so if you're talking nine to twelve that would be the kind of metrics that a super performing business is going to be but ultimately you've got to think what is the core category that we're focusing on.

19:50Innocent's a great example. Actually, when we did that deal, Coke weren't actually that interested in smoothies. Funny enough, they're interested in the brand. And the brand was all about being number one in Europe in fruit juice. And when we did that first deal, yes, they were doing great in smoothies. And yes, they'd started in fruit juice. But actually, the business plan and the trajectory was all about fruit juice. And you look at where they are today, a half a billion pound business, it's all about fruit juice, right? The smoothies, although we all love to drink those smoothies they're actually a very small proportion of what they generate so you know a lot of it funnily enough is you know is the brand strong enough and if we're talking about consumer brands which is a lot of what you know we talk about of a bread and jam the investment in the brand and investment in that category you know because they created a new category but actually then that transitioned over to fruit juice which is not a new category but but the brand was strong enough to be able to do that and that is the magic the secret sauce ultimately just for anyone in the audience who has never heard of EBITDA and that's the first time you've heard it can you just say what that actually means yeah it's earnings before interest for interest tax and appreciation and amortization EBITDA does everyone know that and John coming back to you from you've obviously exited two businesses uh if not more now um but between from the new covent garden exit to then the little dish exit what was there anything that you learned from the first sale to go actually we're not going to do that again we're going to do this slightly different i know you said it's a slightly different way that you exited so was that intentional from the off so i guess the first thing is we were always going to exit any business we set up the intention was to exit so some people say how could you sell your baby and well well the intention always was to sell the baby i'm sorry to to tell you and that that there's a great benefit in that because you know you are going to exit you are going to get out you're it's not going to be a lifestyle business and therefore you can be professional i'm not saying lifestyle business aren't professional, but I think it really is professional.

21:40So what I'd make sure I do is, put it this way, nobody would sell, nobody would dream of selling their house without getting an estate agent involved, right? So typically, if you're selling your business, it's even more valuable than your house. It's the most valuable asset you'll ever sell. So get some professional advice. It sounds really obvious, but you know about your business. You know how to run your business. You know how to grow your business. But you don't have any idea or any clue about selling your business, and you shouldn't. You've never done it until you've done it. So get some professional advice, get some legal advice, get some accountants who are familiar with this category or familiar with startups.

22:12It's critical because it's a completely different set of better criteria, a mature business versus a startup. And the third piece, which is kind of like going back to the point of getting an estate agent, is get a corporate advisor, get some corporate finance advisors, get a boutique, by the way. I wouldn't get the large ones. I'll tell you a story about we actually sold Newcomer Garden twice. It doesn't make sense, but we did actually sell it twice. We engaged with Goldman Sachs back in those days, 1997 or something. And we engaged with them to celebrate. We thought, these are the professional guys.

22:42They know about it. And they were charging a million pounds, which was a lot of money back in those days. And they couldn't sell it. They couldn't sell it for a proper exit price that we thought we would value. Because they weren't. Goldman Sachs are the best in the world. But they don't mean anything about this industry down here, the small-scale industry. We were 25 million euros pounds revenue. So we weren't that tiny, but we're nothing like as big as what Goldman Sachs were used to dealing with. The point about it is get a boutique, small corporate finance advisor who really understands what your business is about.

23:15And get talking to them now as well. Don't wait until you're ready to sell. Get talking to them now and build a relationship. Build a relationship with the legal guys and the accountants as well. But talk to these guys because these guys, the corporate finance advisors, not only will understand your language. It's their job to understand your language. But they'll also know about the strategic guys, and they'll begin to kind of draw lines and say, I see where these guys are coming, and in three years' time, when you might be ready to sell, these guys will be probably over here, and they'll be interested in, guess what?

23:41You. But you need to be more clear about what you are. And so set yourself up for sale without being too obvious about it and without ruining your business. Continue to run your business, but at the same time, be smart about setting yourself up for being visible to those guys who by then will want you because of the following reasons. Now, you won't know that at all. How could you? But it's their job to know that. A boutique corporate finance advisor who is in this scale of space is vital to add a huge amount of value that you'd never dream of. You can be working hard at adding value to your business in the way you'd EBITDA or revenue, whatever it is, NPD and expansion.

24:19And they can add another 20 % just by doing their good job. So it's crazy not to get to work with them. Chemistry is really important because you've got to trust them. That's why you get to know them way ahead of the sale date, like years ahead. Now, now, whatever now is. When you're setting up your business that early, start talking to these guys. Because over time, you need to trust them. They need to trust you. They need to understand you. They need to understand your business. I think that's part of, don't be distracted by it because you've got to run your business. But that's part of getting ready for exit.

24:50And if you always needed to exit, come back to what I said at the beginning, we always did, then you can do that ahead of time back to you in terms of when you're ready to sell but when did you actually start engaging with the final buyer who actually did the the purchase and sold things and how long was that process and like was this someone you've kind of already known and how did that come about because is there like a list when you're like i want to sell it's like how do i find these people yeah so the thing is um we sold to one of our producers so we'd actually been working with them for 10 years the other one was also kind of in the process as were lots of different producers some that I'd had kind of conversations with here and there so yeah we'd you know we'd been engaging with them for a long time we'd actually been talking I'd done some kind of calls with them around the sale as well but then I thought you know we have to kind of do this properly you know we're not in a position to negotiate the right deal and because there were other people that had shown interest we didn't just want to kind of immediately run with them and looking at it now I mean it's really complicated selling and there's no way that the negotiations that then took place we could have negotiated that in the same way yeah I obviously had a lot of contacts and then because arguably we could have said did we need to you know because we ended up selling to one of our producers and with me having these discussions anyway but I think on balance for ourselves as well we needed to go to market we needed to see what people offered and I couldn't have got the deal I got without you know the kind of corporate finance negotiating that and obviously being a few months post sale now what what does your role with two chicks look like have you got a kind of exit strategy to step away from the business completely are you always going to be involved um and then on to you john same kind of questions with your businesses so um we're currently tied in for a minimum of three years so i have some equity left in and that i can you know get out at that point um i always did all the sales for the business so i got us listed everywhere and i don't know why but i kept myself as a point of contact for all these accounts for way too long so when we exited i handed over at about like 20 hand handover meetings and took someone on and then now I'm purely working on new business so that's all I'm going to look at I feel like we need to go into more geographies new products so yeah I'm just going to focus on that as opposed to maintaining any of the accounts that we already have is there is there like revenue targets kind of attributed to that exit or is it kind of at when you hit three years that's it like thank you we'll we'll take that from you I think we'll have the option to stay on and yeah there's there's a way it's calculated that is already laid out you know at the point of sale and then john yeah for for you with new cover garden soup little dish do you have any involvement with those anymore no and it was different uh from what you described and for us i mean in both cases actually i mean you come and garden soup company was a straight sale we were none of us in the business were in any way interested in carrying forward so we said we were going to structure the deal in a way and it was easy to do it in the end because we were talking to somebody who knew that anyway that we're not going to run the business going forward but i think you can only do that if you've got strength and depth in your team now we we we we We were running a 10-year business.

27:47We had two factories. We were manufacturing ourselves. We had a lot of middle management, a lot of senior management out of necessity. That allowed us to be able to make the claim and actually deliver on the claim that we, the owners of the business, the main trailers, the management of the business, didn't need to manage the business going forward. We could hand it over to these other guys who were in the picture and had been running the business, frankly, for a couple of years already by then. And by the way, the other thing is to mention, it's quite a distraction selling your business. Even if you've got these professional advisors around you, it's a great distraction.

28:19And you could easily, which is what happened, by the way, in the States, but that's a different story. You could easily get distracted to the point of not really doing your business justice. So what happened at Newcombe Garden Soup Company, and I guess a little list to a certain extent too, was that we had strength and depth in both management teams. They would run the business and we would sell the business. I think that's important. But no, we were setting to get out completely. That's what we did at Newcombe Garden. And then I went to the States with a little dish. It was slightly different.

28:45We sold to a U.S. private investor, and my business partner actually stayed in, but everybody else got out. And so that business is now owned by the U.S. private equity player, plus my business partner at the time. So basically you can make this up any way you want. As long as you get good advice, accountancy advice, legal advice, tax advice, all the rest of it, but you can figure out what your own justifications are and wishes are and lifestyle choices are. And if you want to get out, then you can figure a way to get out. you might need to stay longer than you wish to get out cleanly you know there are lots of different ways to do this i think and my experience is that you just need to know what you want which is difficult enough to figure out because you're busy running your business and it's taking all the energy that you possibly can find and muster into your business it's often difficult to think what you want strangely but yeah that's how it worked out for us on both counts the middle business it didn't work out at all so that's another story and what's it like now seeing like your Covent Garden Soup or Little Dish and what they're doing is there anything like you see and go like that hits me or like oh I love what they're doing is it it must be an interesting feeling something that you've built and then sold and then are no longer involved with to then I don't know if anyone else spotted all the Little Dish adverts on the way here they were all over the tube and to think oh yeah that was that was my baby yeah having having said that we were always going to sell our baby it sounds like you know very detached and it was but actually I showed your picture on my phone i was in saintry just last week and there was a it was a chilled ready meal side of section and on the top was little dish and there's a whole bunch of stuff in the middle and the bottom of this new coven garden suit so i thought it was a an excellent little 360 of of uh 25 years just like that but yeah of course i take interest in i'm i'm one of these people who used to you know 10 years after selling new coven garden okay it was an estate even when coming back i still rearrange the the fixture you know i go in and oh let's turn it around stupid but you know you can't help it um and and it's great as well seeing little dish very much more mainstream than ever before i would say in terms of uh the ads on on on underground since i've left and since we've sold 2017 there's been a huge number of changes and the packaging has changed and design has changed and oh all right this is new i didn't know that you know that kind of thing so yeah i mean julia my wife thinks i'm crazy we're going let's go into waitressing and have a look around no we're not good we'll take 45 minutes and you'll just want to know and leave So there's a bit of that for sure.