#88 - Marieke Hammes - The Canned Wine Group [Head of Operations & Sustainability]

0:00Marieke Hammes:Hello, hello, hello and welcome back to our founders. Today I'm joined by the lovely Marieke Hammes who is head of operations and sustainability at Canned Wine Group. Now this episode is coming out on a date where they have just gone live in Waitrose with the rebrand of two delicious wines which are phenomenal. Going and check them out. I can't rate them enough. I'm a huge fan. And it was really nice to dig into Marieke's background, how she got into the sustainability space, why she's so passionate about it, Why Can Wine ticks that box from a sustainability point of view, as well as the kegs they're doing in the entree.

0:31Marieke Hammes:I really liked speaking to Marika about getting into operations. She's been in the business six years now and has worked her way through various roles. And operations has been that steep learning curve, loads to do, but I think it's absolutely fantastic. We've met before at Boxfest, which we both raved about on the podcast. I think there's loads in this. You're going to love it. Get yourself to Waitrose and grab some cans. And without further ado, let's get on with the episode. We all know that brand is important, right? But what if I told you it can impact growth and customer acquisition costs by up to 50 %?

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1:38Marieke Hammes:Hello and welcome back to Young Founders. Today I'm joined by the wonderful Marika Hammers. So Marika, can you let everyone know where you work and how long you've been there? Hiya, thanks for having me here. I'm Marika, I work at CanWine Group as head of operations and sustainability. been there for six years and we now have two brands can wine co and the cover amazing i am a huge huge fan of both brands um they are absolutely delicious wines um for anyone who's not aware of the brand hasn't seen it before like what are can wine group what do you guys do what makes you special all that good stuff yeah so can wine group is all about showcasing really exciting high quality wines in a single serve format and we now have two brands we have can wine co which which is focused a bit more on the premium side of things with exciting wines from all across Europe.

2:26We have Austrian wines, Italian, Spanish and French. And our Copper Crew brand is all organic Italian wines from Puglia. And we have that one actually in cans and now also wine on tap. The brand, we started as Can Wine Co. We're now Can Wine Group with both of them. And it was started in 2019 by our co-founders, Simon and Ben. They just really wanted to provide a more exciting option than what was available. It was often, you know, single use plastic cups that were being poured at festivals or you have some small mini bottles that just weren't the most exciting. So they thought there can be something else.

3:08Let's try something that's more exciting without costing the planet. And that's how they ended up doing canned wines with Simon coming more from the business background. He's worked at HelloFresh and Eat First and Ben started his own wine business at 22. So he came from the wine angle.

3:24Marieke Hammes:Amazing. And for you, what was it about Can Wine Co or Can Wine Group that when you saw it, you're like, oh, I could see myself there. Like, what was it about the brand? You're like, this is for me. Yeah, it's kind of a funny story where I hadn't left all the Facebook groups after leaving university. So I saw a post come up in the Wine Society Facebook group from Bath University. I had no plans because my plans got cancelled due to COVID lockdowns and saw the post come up that they were hiring their first intern for this like sustainable, cool wine startup in Bath. And I just thought this is the most perfect opportunity.

4:00I grew up in a wine region in Germany, so was all used to the world of wine and sustainability is what's really close to my heart. And I had nothing to lose. I had a master's that was coming up a few months later. and looking back I probably wrote the most confident email of my life and was just like hire me give me this internship and I never really left.

4:21Marieke Hammes:I was gonna say you've been there nearly six years now and you've changed role a few times like what is it about the brand the business the team that is keeping you there because you were first employee if I'm not mistaken so you've been there now to see this growth and doing everything you're doing so how big is the team and yeah what are some of those things that you're like yeah this is this is why I love what I do? Yeah so we're 10 now as of yesterday and we have another new joiner ahead of sales joining in June and then we'll be up to 11. It's yeah it's been a bit of a wild ride. I started as marketing intern in 2020 and now I'm in ops and sustainability.

4:58It's I think it's kind of two things about the business that kept me there and also made me move around. One is really the team. Everyone's so passionate and Ben and Simon like really believe in in the people they hire and like push us to um to kind of grow out of our comfort zone and take on new challenges it was um the both of them that were like you should move to operations and also that gives you more kind of control over the sustainability side than if I looked at that from a marketing side so in 2022 I moved into operations and it was literally like baptism by fire. Like every day I was learning something completely new.

5:38I had to learn how to dispatch pallets and what a co-packer is and label compliance and supplier approvals. And honestly, every day was just so overwhelming of new information and like really steep learning curve. But I just really liked the brand, really liked the team, liked how tight knit everyone was and just how passionate everyone was about like making this work. And so I stayed along for the ride and then we built a little operations team with new team members. I became head of ops and now I'm also the employee representative to the board. So that's kind of like the second part. The first one is the team and the second is that there's so much room for like personal growth as well.

6:19And that you can really take on such a wide variety of responsibilities and learn something so different every day. and that's I think the kind of environment that I thrive in the most and that's why I'm still here six years later.

6:34Marieke Hammes:I love that yeah and I think this is the exact kind of unfounder mentality as well as you're not a founder but I think I imagine you're going to feel like you are one of the founders because you're so passionate about it you can you can tell that and from going from when you first joined like what was the business doing like how are you selling there to where are you available now where can people actually find the wines and buy them because as I said the the Quality speaks for itself. I think canned wine has kind of gone on this journey of being like, no, actually, you can put incredible liquid inside a canned format.

7:02Marieke Hammes:It's just more sustainable. So that seems to have changed. But yeah, I'd love to know that business trajectory and where people can get their hands on it nowadays. Yeah, it's been such a big change. And in like the first two years, it was a lot of like indie farm shops and wine merchants. Obviously, it was all quite our plans were thrown by COVID. Simon's first full-time day at Canwanko was the first day of UK lockdown. And so there was like no turning back and just had to make it work. So the first year was a lot of like your neighborhood shops that were still allowed to be open. No hospitality, no festivals, none of that.

7:39And then D2C as well. And then shortly after I joined, we also had another intern join, Abby, who's still with us now in sales. And she was, you know, then as the lockdowns ended, knocking on all the doors, just trying to find new avenues. And that's when we got a few theater listings and some more restaurants and cafes. And it was still focused quite on like the independents because we didn't have a national distributor yet. So I remember in the first few years, it was always like we have to get into a national distributor. And that was like everything that we were working on. And now we're in several national distributors, which really helps, who then sell on to all kinds of hospitality businesses.

8:21We're very much like B2B first and sell into everything from like BA and train companies. Our wines have been at Wimbledon. We're in Harrods. We are in Waitrose as well, Ocado, and then our online shop. and yeah it's it's mostly hospitality focused and then with a bit of retail as well yeah love that

8:44Marieke Hammes:yeah I've definitely had a can on a BA flight in the past year or so and Waitrose I think I mentioned before we hit record still on my target for Pact like we will be in there but yeah it's exciting to see that that new relaunch in Waitrose so what's that been like in the build-up because this is coming out on the day it's being announced so it's kind of a exclusive without being exclusive because it's now out there in the ether. But yeah, for those like going into Waitress, like what wines is it? How's that conversation gone? And yeah, what does it look like? Yeah, so Waitress was always like at the top of our list where it's like the one retailer we really, really wanted to work with.

9:19And we just kept on working on making that happen. And then at the start of 2024, we finally got the good news that in autumn our wines were launching. And it was such a big team effort And it was probably one of my favorite things we ever did as a team together because there was marketing, thinking about the launch plans and how we could, you know, do a coordinated team photo. And there was ops being like, OK, and now we need to create a new packaging design and all the retailer compliance and setting up with all the platforms. So it was so special once we finally had our wines on the shelf. And then the new thing is that we're actually launching two new wines into Waitrose on the day this podcast comes out.

10:02So we have our Gruner Veltliner, which is our best seller among the Cam Wine Co range, launching. It's the first Gruner, I think, ever in alt format. Launching into retail, which we're so excited about. And then we also have our Garnacha made by Nora Robertson, a master of wine in Spain, that's launching as well. And yeah, it's just been so exciting. we've had those two wines for the last six years so there are og wines and giving them a bit of a brand refresh and then launching them uh has just yeah been so exciting and everyone's feeling so

10:36Marieke Hammes:like positive and giddy about it yeah i've had both of those wines i can confirm they are absolutely delicious so if you're listening to this head on down to your nearest waitress go grab some cans you won't regret it but for for those new to the world of canned wine like why do you think there was or is still this kind of misconception and why is canned wine actually such a great format yeah great question i think um there's this one sentence we always get and it's like our pet peeve is canned wine is so great for a picnic and yes it is great for a picnic but it's just great for so many other situations as well because it hits so many different points that businesses are trying to solve right any venue that has a no glass policy that has is trying to hit like recycling targets that want lower weight like an airline that just want a really small menu because they don't have a lot of shelf space or someone that literally just wants to like try something new or doesn't have a lot of wine sales and so they don't want to open a bottle and then have like half the bottle left over at the end of service can wine can solve all of those so as a format that's very useful because as b2b first business we always have to think about what operational no niggles are we solving for our customers and that's kind of check check check for the format the one thing where we noticed it doesn't always work is for like high volume venues which is why we brought in the kegs and that's where we see the kegs sit where it's about faster service time and just having those 20 liters available to you and another I think misconception is just thinking that it won't taste as good as out of the bottle or that it can only be low quality wine and that's really at the center of our business and just wanting to showcase that it can be really high quality and really pushing the boundary as well we've made some mistakes we've taken some risks we had a barrel-aged verdacho that has had a wild journey in Cannes where the taste keeps changing it's a real like marmite wine where some people absolutely love it and some people can't stand it and we launched with a Tariga Nacional from Portugal which didn't work at all in Cannes and it's never been produced again by us.

12:49But it's all about taking those risks and learning. We were one of the, I think, more early brands to hire a technical manager. We are still such a small team. I think other businesses would always invest in more sales staff. And we're like, no, let's get a technical manager in-house so we can do more R &D and actually really understand the can format and how to bring high-quality wine into can. And I think, yeah, in future we have many plans of how far we can push that format and I mean the ultimate dream at some point would be to have like port and all kinds of super funky wines and really expensive one I don't know 20 30 pounds a can but that's that's a bit of

13:28Marieke Hammes:a pipe dream love that yeah I'll give you one more um case uses my wife is currently pregnant and if I want wine I'm not going to have a bottle because I always need to be like oh do I need to drive somewhere so actually a single can where I'm like actually I can have this with my food and like it's just one can the bottle's not going to sit in the fridge like it's it's perfect so actually it's it's a really good from a one person in the household who drinks you might just want the odd glass and i love variety as well so actually you very kindly sent me some and i've got like a lovely range in my my fridge and my cupboards where i'm like oh actually should i have this one um but also even for for cooking that's another one where sometimes you want a whole bottle you want to have your glass with it but um yeah often it is like oh i just need some some white wine for my risotto great account perfect measure so yeah i'm i'm totally bought in i think it's such a great product format brand i think your your branding and the the range that you guys have built with the the kind of two sub brands absolutely brilliant for you what does your typical week or month look like i know it's always changed obviously with waitress i imagine there's going to be a lot going on behind the scenes for the last few weeks getting those new cans in and doing all of that fun yeah what would your kind of typical week be yeah definitely it's completely unpredictable really and there's no typical day I think because I sit kind of across operations and sustainability I constantly like juggle both of them obviously some tasks are just both at the same time like a supply approval process but I do anything from production planning booking in a tanker booking in label production or the slot with the co-packer to then going to B Corp events that we're currently doing our positive luxury recertification, prepping for organic audits, and then doing things like this.

15:08Or next week, we're at London Wine Fair, and it's all hands on deck for that. We're on three panels and have two stands and everyone has to pitch in. So I think there's no real typical day or week and typical startup fashion. It's a bit of everything all the time.

15:24Marieke Hammes:Yeah, love that. Yeah, I always always ask it, but I never expect everyone to be like, right Monday I do this Tuesday I do this like no one has that routine nowadays and I think that's why I love it but for you going right the way back growing up what was your kind of dreams or aspirations going okay when I'm older this is what I want to do like you've touched on you you went to university but prior to that like what were you going yeah I think when I'm older I want to do this yeah so I think I was always kind of working towards getting onto the Unilever grad scheme because I had that interest in sustainability but also business they just always seemed like the pinnacle of that and I did the IB and I did my extended essay about Unilever and their acquisition of Ben and Jerry's and then I was at Bath for international management and some of my friends did go on to the Unilever grad scheme and I've heard so many you know positive experiences but I realized that I wanted to go deeper into the sustainability route and that I wanted to do a master's instead so I did that in Edinburgh in carbon management and because at that point I'd already done my internship with Camwine Co and never really left it just I just joined Camwine Co and it's been a bit of a you know coincidence not a clearly like defined career goal that I've landed here and I get to kind of write the sustainability strategy work on the sustainability certifications alongside doing all the op stuff yeah love that and it sounds like wine was part of your your family and your upbringing yeah yeah exactly i went to wine growing up and um i've just been home and i literally every night i just go for a walk in the vineyards and what out of interest from your like family side of things like what what were their thoughts on canned wine initially did they have like a strong oh no that's not right or have they been pleasantly surprised Yeah, I think my family have been super excited about it and always proudly have some cans at home to show people.

17:19Germany is definitely a more traditional wine market. And when I can just walk to my neighbor and buy a bottle for probably the same price as in the UK, we pay for a can. People haven't quite entered that canned mindset and there's definitely more preconceptions towards the quality as well. So I do actually think that the UK market is much more accepting and more excited about those kind of innovations as well. But yeah, my family have been great about it.

17:44Marieke Hammes:Love that. So just going back from university and your focus on sustainability, what was it around sustainability that was so important to you? Where did that kind of passion or drive come from to be like, yeah, this is where I want to spend my time and energy? Yeah, I always think like, what's my sustainability origin story? And I'm not entirely sure. I think my grandparents were really into that and they had a huge garden and growing all their own fruit and veg and kind of like instilled those values of secondhand and like think about where your things come from. They worked at this shop that was kind of like a charity shop that sold handcrafted items from like small communities all around the world.

18:26And I think that probably like sunk in more than I realized and just meant that I've always been really interested in environmental protection and nature based solutions and wrote most of my essays about carbon offsetting, although more from the negative side during my university. and it's just something I feel like we should all feel so responsible for that like the earth is our home and there's so many great things and let's try and preserve it and nurture it yeah I think it's often a question of how you can like integrate that into your work life but it's it's something

19:01Marieke Hammes:that I do try and do at Calmind Group yeah love that yeah I think I did a post today about a book called Michael Recycle that I spotted around my my mum's reading to my daughter and it was like a really cute book about yeah helping helping the local people plant their edge and do all of this stuff and david atterbury's just had 100 and his life's mission's been all about sustainability so i think people are so aware and i think it is actually understanding things like you said the carbon footprint of a can of wine versus a bottle of wine like the weight the like everything within it i think there's there's so much in that and so for you guys to be leading from the front and getting that buy-in from retailers like ocado or waitrose or elsewhere i think is really good for you what have been some of your favorite independent or stories of in the six years there must have been like some either festivals or events or things that you've done and you've gone oh this was such a great experience for the wine or getting the product here was great yeah i think to really stand out well i already mentioned the waitress launch two years ago the first one then we also were at wimbledon and we were allowed to do a like team day out and just take a day off work to go to Wimbledon and we queued and we then saw our wines at like all the different locations that they had like across Wimbledon from the grab and go fridges and the bars and just felt so incredibly excited that all the work we'd done as a team had like led to this moment and that all these people were seeing our cams out and about and then another moment that was really special was big festival we've done it a few times we don't do that many events anymore but we worked out as a team you know everything from like ceo to sales intern and we got so much positive feedback that people could like feel our passion and just the positive energy we were trying to bring to our tent and we're coming back for like seconds and thirds and that was just so nice to see when you see the cans and hands it's just such a full circle moment that all the behind And the scene's work has paid off for someone to now enjoy this moment of time and wine together.

21:04Marieke Hammes:No, big festival. I didn't go last year, but I know the PAX team went and had a great time. So we booked to go again this year because it was just such a great brand opportunity experience. I think actually everyone's in such a good mood and you're there giving your energy and being like, come along, try this. And I think it's such a good first touch point that people often overlook. And I think, yes, you want to be sampling. Yes, you want to be promoting and doing all these things. But actually being there in person and speaking to a consumer who either knows the brand and loves it already, always discovering it for the first time is so valuable.

21:34Yeah. Yeah. It was definitely that like, how can we get those? Is it three touch points that you're meant to get with every consumer? And it was just a really fun, fun time for the team as well. Very long days, but super fun and enjoying the music on the side.

21:48Marieke Hammes:Now, coming back to operations, Opsfest, both there. I'm pretty sure I had one of your cans on stage. I definitely had some canned wine. That was such a good conference. I think it was like my favourite conference I've ever been to. Yeah, I mean, Phil and the team absolutely nailed it. That was the second one. It was even bigger and better. And I think they've got even bigger plans for this year. Excited to see that. From your role in operations now, what have been some of your steepest learning curves or toughest days where you're like, actually, this is really tough? Yeah, I think there's quite a few.

22:21There is so much firefighting going on constantly in ops. but there's there's one instance this was a few years back now that has to date been like our most stressful time where basically at that point it was our biggest production we'd done like a full tanker of our most expensive wine and it turned out that the canning site we were working with was probably fraudulent and like completely neglecting our wine they lost 8 000 liters during offload which is like completely unheard of um and then they filled the wine uh in a bad state to the point where we weren't comfortable selling it and like in monetary terms this was just like such a big cost to us and we actually had a second tanker on the way to that canning site and we had to reroute it find a new canning site find cans send the labels somewhere else because this canning site can't actually label and it was just a huge saga and stress for like two months of trying to solve it and then the consequences of that like hit us for like months to come um but it was like a huge wake-up call that even though we had visited the site beforehand that we now have like a super super rigorous supplier approval process for our co-packers that to like never go through

23:41Marieke Hammes:that again yeah sadly it sometimes takes one of those things to happen to go well actually we need we need to look at this thing yeah whether that's compliance or yeah co-packers there's so many things that that could go on and it often always comes back to operations so it's a when it's production it's even tougher because it's like actually it's the source issue that is the problem it's not getting it from here to there yeah i think and there there is often a lot of pressure because you feel like i want to have enough stock so the sales team can confidently sell sell sell but also i don't want too much stock so i'm not tying up all of my working capital and just having that pressure sometimes you know it can get to you where you're you're trying to do best by like every team and by the resources you have available and with wine we need to be careful because it's a vintage product we can't just brew more we can't just um just we have to stick to the allocations we've like pre-agreed with the winemakers it feels often quite like high stakes of getting it right when forecasting as a growing startup is a nightmare anyway from your perspective then when it comes to the range like you've got so many different products and varieties now like what would be the one when you're like everyone you need to go out and try this is it is it like the Gruner that's just gone into Waitrose like what's what would be the one you're like okay everyone like this is this is the one you need to get your hands on yeah oh it changes all the time I think every few months I change my favorite but I do think the Gruner is just such a fun variety it's that vibrant and zesty white wine that so many people love but it's just a bit more unusual compared to the Sauvignon Blanc.

25:12It's from Austria and it's just exciting to try something new. And then, of course, you can now go and get it at Waitrose.

25:19Marieke Hammes:Love that. Yeah, I can confirm. It is an absolutely delicious wine. So yeah, I'll be getting some when I see it next in Waitrose. For you and looking ahead for canned wine, obviously the Waitrose news is going out today, so super exciting. For the rest of the year, you've obviously got this wine event this week as well. What does the rest of the year hold? Or have we got any new varieties coming out later in the year? Is there anything you can kind of tease? Or is it all just a watcher space? Yeah, so we're doing another batch of our sparkling Chardonnay. We have actually just run out. But because we do second fermentation and some of these aging on it, rather than like carbonating a still wine, it just has a longer kind of period that it needs.

25:59So that's going to kind of relaunch later this year, which we're really excited about. I do love that one. And it just always hits the spot. And then we have a few projects that are like in the works, don't have a date yet, but we're just trying to think of like what other wines can we bring into Cannes? How can we like collaborate with new winemakers we haven't worked with before? So hopefully something's coming next year on that. And then we have the Copper Crew Wine on Tap, which is still kind of like our newest addition to the range. And we're really excited seeing that in more spaces now.

26:34We're in some airport lounges. It's going really well into Italian restaurants and it's also great for pubs. So a big project for this year is kind of unlocking the pub space with the wine on tap. And then I think it's just working really closely also with the accounts we already have and growing with them is a real focus for this year.

26:55Marieke Hammes:Love that. No, it's great. Yeah, I can confirm Copacru is delicious with Italian food. And we actually made some peachy pasta the other week. And I was like, perfect, I'm going to have some with it. Because peachy, whenever I've been to Italy, it's always my favourite pasta. It's just like really fat spaghetti, kind of like an udon noodle. And it's super easy to make. So we're like, oh, let's give it a go. And it turned out great. And the wine was just the perfect accompaniment. So I can see that being a hit in, as you said, Italian restaurants on tap just for that convenience, ease and sustainability.

27:23Marieke Hammes:because ultimately that's all tied in with it. Sustainability, we have our positive luxury recertification this year and we're working on our carbon footprints. We're working on a product carbon footprint as well to compare the keg and the can and then hoping to finally write our first impact report this summer as well. So lots happening. Amazing. For you then, for anyone who's considering getting into the kind of FMCG space, what would your top advice be? What would your top tips? I think like definitely try it. It's such a fun industry. I think a thing to remember is just like how many different jobs there are.

27:56Like you could be in finance, you could be in HR, you can be in sales. All of those exist in FMCG. I think one thing, and it's probably a piece of advice I might have given myself, is to maybe do a year or two at a bigger company just so you can like learn the ins and outs of the industry so that when you then go to a startup, you're not kind of trying to invent everything yourself and just being in the deep end constantly and having like a bit of that knowledge from how the industry works from elsewhere who've already figured it all out.