#67 - Jo Taylor - Dionilife (MASH GANG) - [Global Marketing Director]

0:28Hello, hello, hello. Welcome back to your founders. experience lessons and learnings which she shares with you today and I really really liked unpicking what the future holds for this alcohol-free space what her vision is for it her passions her excitements around all the things she does and that clarity over and over again of what you're representing when you're doing these brands so there's so much in this I really really hope you enjoy it and without further ado let's get on with the episode we all know that brand is important right but what if I told you it can impact growth and customer acquisition costs by up to 50 percent against ordinary are a brand agency who help founders marketing departments scaling teams ensure their brand is the most powerful tool for growth from brand strategy tone of voice and visual identity to helping you get retail ready with ongoing brand growth retainers they really are the full circle agency for growing your brand being the team are absolutely fantastic just imagine what they could do for your brand so what are you waiting for see how they can be your grand growth partners at against ordinary.com

1:35hello and welcome back to some founders today i'm joined by the wonderful joe taylor so joe can you please let everyone know where you work and how long you have been there hello nice to be here mitch um so i'm joe i work for a business called dione life so it is an exclusively non-alcoholic portfolio of brands essentially born from the really big and true seismic shift in how people are drinking so we have a series of brands all in the non-alcoholic space but our absolute mission is to level up that experience to make sure that nobody can say that any one of our drinks is second best to a full strength drink so we've got mashgang beer which was our original brand it's a great full flavored crisp juicy bold and non-alcoholic beer in lots of great irreverent can designs and then most recently we've got two fantastic new spirits brands so we have Pavari which is a little bit like an Aperol just without the ethanol in a ready-to-serve can as well and then we've also got Mexican blue agave spirits which essentially is used like a tequila alternative called Labarosa.

2:46And again, it's available in ready to serve cans to enjoy on the go. Actually, we're finding a lot of entree bars are actually using those to serve to their customers as well. Amazing. Yeah. I mean, gorgeous portfolio. Personally, I knew of Mashgang. I didn't know of the other ones. So for you, how did you first discover the brand? How did you get involved in it? What was it about the non-alc movement in this space? You were like, actually, this is where I think I can do something. Yeah, interesting. So I guess my passions have always been in two clear spaces. I'm a real foodie, and I'm really into health and nutrition.

3:21And I guess that has driven most of my kind of, you know, decisions on where to work to date. And what's interesting is, all of the products I've worked on so far have been very kind of individually consumed. I've always had a bit of a craving to go into this much more kind of social space, which is all about I mean it's essentially it's a real human need it's it's a really healthy thing to go out to socialize to be with friends so I'd almost see it that this this portfolio is almost like the third part of the Venn diagram where you've got food you've got health and wellness and then this real kind of social space so it's always interested me and I've always had a bit of a craving to to get into it and I happen to know somebody who works with MASH gang I'd drunk the beers, fell in love with them.

4:09We have a bit of a MASH gang ritual in our house actually. And I got talking to them and found out about this new role. And I think the other thing that's brilliant about this role and kind of taking on this opportunity is that it's a great combo where we've got all the original founders of MASH gang who are all still part of the business. There's also a wealth of experience from people who've come from the spirits industry and have that background. So I personally feel that there's just loads of great people that I can learn from. And it just feels like a really exciting kind of next move. Amazing.

4:44And being global, is there particular territories in particular looking at? Is it UK, America? Or is it like worldwide? What's the scope? Yeah, so we've got three brands. We have two major markets so far. We've got the UK and the US. We're in four states in the US. So again, huge learning for me. I'm getting my head around the US markets, which is you know it's completely different to the UK and then we have our e-commerce business and our kind of bricks and mortar business so actually there are a huge number of different sort of you know lenses and channels that we work with what's the kind of difference in attitudes but um towards kind of alcohol and alcohol free in America versus the UK because obviously being from the UK I've been part of this wave of people who as a consumer myself I would actually pick up an alcohol free beer or spirit and go actually don't fancy drinking today but I just want that taste.

5:32What's that like in America? It's actually very, very similar. So the trends are very similar across the pond. So we're finding that, you know, I think it's only just over half of adults in the UK and the US now drink alcohol. So it's really come down. We're finding that four in every 10 people are actively making a decision to go a whole week or more without alcohol. And then even with the people who are drinking, a third of people, both sides of the pond, switched between alcoholic and non-alcoholic drinks in what was termed zebra striping. So regularly kind of switching between the two. The UK market is a little bit more established.

6:12There are more brands in the alcohol-free space and consumers are generally a bit more comfortable drinking alcohol-free. It's interesting that in the US, there's still a little bit more stigma associated with it, But ultimately, the whole category is born from a really clear consumer insight, which is that whether you're drinking or you're not, people just want to fit in and feel like they're part of the crowd and have a great night. And I guess our mission is to make sure that we're offering people that choice, that taste, the full experience. I think a lot of other players in the market aren't really offering.

6:49So the whole premise is, you know, you order a MASH Gang or you order a Guinness. It's kind of, you know, it's very, they're very much interchangeable and we're kind of largely, I guess, ABV agnostic. It's, yeah. So, yeah, similar trends, both sides of the Atlantic, I'd say. Love that. I think it's very much being adopted in the UK. I think I said before we hit record, it was actually one of my best friends was like, oh, I saw this advert for this brand called MASH Gang the other day. Do you know them? And he's the kind of person who was like, what's the point in alcohol free beer? I don't get it.

7:19He's like, if I want a beer, I'm drinking beer. Like, that's it. whereas now he's kind of gone actually during the week i don't always want the effects or the alcohol or the calories sometimes and he's really into his fitness so what do you think some of the misconceptions are when it comes towards alcohol-free beer or alcohol-free spirits especially with regards to like cost because often they they do still cost a lot to make and therefore they're similar price points so how are you combating that from your side when anyone's like oh yeah but what's what's the point of it or why is it so expensive as a brand um how are you communicating this?

7:50Yeah, so I guess our premise is essentially, you know, if you take the beer, for example, I mean, it is beer. It's brewed in exactly the same way. It's got all the depth, the body, the complexity, those layers of flavours that you would expect in a really great craft beer. And we are offering that without the alcohol. So there's just as much time, effort and passion. We actually talk about the fact to get to our, you know, core lineup of beers, our head brewer, Jordan went through I think it's 222 beers and counting so it is that kind of obsession with quality and just continually optimizing the products that has led us to those those beers and they do take just as much love grit passion and you know avoiding those shortcuts that some of the sort of the more mainstream products are leaning towards and offering something that's just it's essentially a really authentic real beer that happens to be alcohol free yeah often it's the same ingredients and everything it would just be in the process of like a final step to remove alcohol or brewing to a strength of alcohol other than that it's the same process you're just not necessarily being hit by the same taxes as a business which is a nice side but um how big is the business and the team now in terms of uh do you have an office you work remote what was it about the ins and outs of this role that was exciting for you?

9:12Yes, I guess like culture-wise, it definitely, it suits me. We are a remote team. We've got a team kind of distributed across the UK, but also in America. So, you know, we are, yes, we're remote, but we all come together very regularly. For example, we've got the Waitrose Food and Drink Festival tomorrow. We generally come together at kind of big consumer events, But we also get together for, you know, planning sessions and that kind of thing. But ultimately, there is a real, it's a really, really unique culture, whereby everybody is a self starter, everyone is empowered, you run your own agenda.

9:49And really, that can be, you know, wherever you want, wherever you want to work. interestingly there are things like you know for example we don't have a holiday allowance it's like no you just run your time as you want to run it and you take as much holiday as you need to take it's like it's very much leaning into the kind of you know full ownership self-starter you know you make what you can of it and as part of that I guess you can work wherever you want to it suits me personally we live a little way out of London but I can still really easily get into London to do you know but we had a content day the other day so i'll be doing some filming in london but equally you know there are things you can run a photo shoot in your garden or i just think having that flexibility for me personally really helps kind of manage the juggle especially with you know family and kids and everything else no love that and yeah i think that's exactly my approach to working at pack that was one of the things that attracts me because it's that same concept of we've got people up and down the country we come together in london or twickenham when we need to but ultimately everyone's trusted to get on with their work from wherever they are and I think that's such an important part of business some cultures and teams especially ones I've spoken to on here they love that office vibe of like everyone getting together smashing ideas doing that but I think especially like saying I'm getting old I'm 36 but it's like that like I've got a family I want to be able to do the nursery run and all these extra little bits that like that makes a difference to actually I'm going to put in all the hours I can because I can work it around my schedule and I think that is so important now from employers exactly and I've always been the sort person I don't you know I I've never had a had a setup where I said you know on this day I must not do any work and on this day I'm working it's like I just see them as two worlds that kind of coexist and if I want to do something with my my kids at some point for an hour that's great and I'll work in the evening and I think it's that flexibility to be able to sort of manage your own time and the trust that people put in in essentially delivering the results and that's ultimately what matters.

11:42Exactly. Yeah, love that. Now, I want to take things right the way back to when you were younger, going, when I grow up, I want to do this. And then take us through your career to how you've got here, because you've worked for some absolutely fantastic brands and had an incredible career. I'd love to know when you were young, what was it you thought, that's where my passion is, that's what I'm going to be doing? Because I imagine an alcohol-free brand was never on the cards at 10. No, it didn't even exist back then. I guess I don't think I really had a really clear view of what I wanted to do.

12:11I was probably a bit of a geek at school. I liked lots of different subjects, could have been pulled in lots of different directions. But equally, I was brought up overseas for most of my childhood in, you know, different cultures and meeting different people. And the other factor is, you know, my dad had a very kind of, you know, corporate job and role. And I guess I think I remember being in sixth form and filling out one of those questionnaires which says like you know what career are you going to take what career path and I think the answer spat out that I was either going to be a foreign office diplomat or a librarian and then I think my mum said you know Jay you should be a weather forecaster because you know you quite enjoy being on your feet you're quite into you know presenting and you know quite interested in the weather having lived in lots of tropical climates but I think having seen my dad go through you know big businesses I felt like that was probably the right thing to do so after my degree went about applying for different you know graduate schemes in business having done a degree in languages and and some business I did have a bit of a taste of marketing and I just thought oh that's you know this is a really fascinating area and a great combo of like you know the consumer insight and that fascination with people but also does have a really strong like creative channel and outlets.

13:34So I think I started looking around for a marketing role and got onto the graduate training program at L 'Oreal, which was just the most awesome marketing training ground you could possibly ask for. Then went to Danone, but I felt that the corporate world wasn't necessarily entirely for me. I love the profession and the marketing, but I always had a bit of an itch to be, I guess I've always wanted to do things my own way and I'm a bit of a, you know, a self-starter. And so I thought about going into the startup role. And that was just at the time where a headhunter called me up and said, well, Innocent Drinks are looking for somebody to take on, you know, a new portfolio, a new kids range.

14:15And I thought, well, that sounds great. But I remember speaking to my dad at the time and him telling me, I mean, it's a bit risky, you know, Joe, maybe you should stay in the big corporate world. And And I was slightly worried that I might be kind of, you know, joining a bunch of hippies. And, you know, it was going to be something that might not work out. And I remember it was Valentine's Day. And this is a very random story. I was meeting up with my then boyfriend for dinner. And I said to him, you know what? I'm thinking about this job at Innocent. I'm really not sure if I should take it or not.

14:50But I'd noticed on the back of the Innocent bottles, it said, you know, fancy a chat. why not come and visit us at Fruit Towers? So I said, I've got this great idea. Just before we go for dinner, I'm going to park up in the car park and you're going to go in, you're going to go around, check it out, see what it's like. And then you're going to come and report back and let me know if I should go and work there. And I think he came back about an hour and a half later, literally the biggest grin on his face. He just said, you have to join, Joe. It's absolutely phenomenal. You know, just spent this, you know, this tour around Fruit Towers and, you know, Lots of people still there working.

15:25Everyone's really diligent, but they're having a great time. And I guess I never looked back. I was then there for about a decade. So Innocent was fabulous, had 10 great years there. I really did feel like an entrepreneur within a bigger business. So I started out with the kids portfolio, reaching out to a whole new consumer group of parents and kids. And it was a great marketing experience of talking to parents alongside the kids. I then had a really great entrepreneurial experience setting up the brand in France. So I was a one man band running all the marketing to set up Innocent in a different market.

16:03I then set up the food business, which then led to the role, the future role at BOL. So that was great, you know, taking Innocent from fruit into vegetables. And we had this great idea that, you know, you get your two of your five a day from a smoothie, three of your five a day from a veg pot. it's your full five a day. And that sort of really flew. And then I guess my final role at Innocent, which was like from the sublime to the ridiculous, I launched the big juice range for the company. Essentially, the whole idea was, you know, Coke were on the cusp of taking the business over and wanted a juice portfolio to really take on Tropicana owned by PepsiCo.

16:45So it was a complete other end of the spectrum given an eight and a half million pounds marketing budgets and a really really you know big launch um so yes it was it was a great great 10 years really and that's yeah sort of end of end of the innocent days amazing i'd love to kind of go a bit step by step because you were saying as you talked about l 'oreal you were like your eyes lit up and you're like oh such a good experience obviously everyone knows the l 'oreal brand but what was it about kind of coming from university going into that graduate scheme and being like oh this is this is amazing I want to do this and this like what was it they did really well that we could maybe learn from?

17:20I think that the thing with L 'Oreal is the it's the consistency that they apply no matter which country you're in it's incredibly clear consumer messaging very consistently executed you know even through to when you're in store looking at a nail varnish display the execution is second to none so i think they do they obviously do that brilliantly and then the the product innovation just the constant stream of innovation um and then i think on the marketing side being able to to really bring that emotional connection to consumers and obviously the the great line because you're worth it but you know they really they understand what makes people tick and give products that people just uh that are a joy to use essentially and then obviously from l 'oreal must have been huge teams into Dannon, which I imagine, again, still big teams.

18:15And then going on to Innocent. When you joined Innocent, how many employees was there at the start and towards the end of your 10 and a half years or so you were there? So I think I was employee, I think I was, I was 40 something. So we weren't tiny by that stage. But it was still very, very early on. I remember I got my contract through. And they said, well, before you even start, would you like to come on the Innocent Nature weekend and come and meet everybody. And it really was like, it was just a big family at that stage. But then within one year, by the following year, we'd got up to number 100.

18:50So I guess I was just on the cusp of when they essentially went from tiny, tiny startups to really putting the foot on the gas with expansion and recruitment. There's so many people now that I speak to or see in the industry who've gone on to work for other great brands. Obviously, Boll kind of separated off from Innocent and has become its own absolute juggernaut of a brand which is amazing and we'll dig into that soon what was it about the the ins and outs of working at innocent because it's always the gold standard when you think challenge a brand innocent will 100 % come up whether that's marketing copy whether that's attitudes whether that's fruit towers like from your experience so there's any other things that aren't talked about you're like I really think this is another reason why innocent was so good yeah I'd say the three things that for me personally that I'll take out of that experience and that I'll always try and replicate wherever I work.

19:42So the first one is an obsession with the product and the quality. So a lot of people talk about the brand and the tone of voice and don't get me wrong, the tone of voice was an absolute secret weapon in the armory of why the marketing works and a great part of it. But the obsession with the product, and we have this expression called Kaizen, So the approach to continual improvement, we were obsessed with quality, lived in the kitchen. We didn't see it as like we've launched a new recipe. Now it's, you know, that's it. It's a market. We always wanted to keep improving it. So I think that's something that, you know, ultimately, if the liquid doesn't live up to the brand, then it won't fly.

20:24That for me was a real success. And then I think the other thing for me about Innocent was I just learned this theory of kind of simplifying and exaggerating and almost thinking of us as as marketeers, a bit like a comedian with a sketch that they put on telly. So, you know, finding that little consumer truth, that insight, honing in on it and then exploding it, really turning up the volume and finding creative ways to kind of bring it to life. I'd say that's probably one of the things that Innocent was, you know, that we were absolutely brilliant at was finding those little, you know, consumer nuggets and making sure that we're really kind of exploding them in a big way.

21:05But I also think just, yeah, the humanity behind the business and the brand, and it's something that I've been speaking about with my current team. It's like, how can we be, you know, this, and I think it's where, you know, MASH gang in particular comes in. It's like, we want to be the real human face of the beer world. We are a gang. We want to drive that kind of, you know, that participation in a world that's moving more and more into, you know, AI. We want to be that real human face. And I think I learned a lot of that from Innocent, which was all about what you saw on the outside was exactly what it was like working in the business.

21:44It was one and the same thing. Yeah, I love that. It's amazing. Like, I think someone needs to do like a bit of a map of like people are innocent and all the businesses that have come from it. Because it's just in the last 10 years, like the amount of businesses and experiences of like having Innocent on your CV is just like a great, like you're going to be good. there's that attitude which is incredible when you think about it's the same from the bigger brands like if you've worked for a blue chip company it's that's what a lot of brands will be looking for so i think it is that like the equivalent of that now especially regardless of the coke side it was like before that it was exactly the same thing i mean it just seems to have accelerated but yeah i think the thing that we love there was just i mean if you're the sort of person that just loves to make stuff happen which is what my personality profile is i just love just I'd much rather be brave try something and then ask for forgiveness if it doesn't work so I think you know just taking that learning of like what do you need to do brilliantly as a marketeer you need to disrupt in the market and you need to make people fall in love with your product and your brand and again I think that's what we were just that's what we were taught to do you know L 'Oreal was a great business school from you know in terms of learning those those techniques the marketing principles but to be honest Innocent most phenomenal business school for just how to go about getting products out there and learning as you go along and and taking risks and just going for it.

23:10So then from from Innocent you you continued on with Boll and I'd love to dig into that because Boll especially in the last couple of years it just feels like the the brand's kind of just grown and grown and it's something like yes this is who we are this is what we stand for this is what we do and it's just it's become really staple now like we absolutely love the soups the shakes are great I think the the ever-growing range of products is really really solid and as a brand I think it's fantastic so with you kind of leading that being involved I'd love to know your your journey with bowl because I think as I said especially the last few years in particular just really seems to have just taken off just like Innocent.

23:45Exactly yeah no I mean I I guess the the original product range came from Innocent with the with the bowl food pots. So I've, you know, definitely, you know, the guys who used to work at Innocent, we all worked together. So I'd kept in touch with them for many years. And they got to a point where they were saying, right, okay, we've now, we've had ball around for the last, you know, nearly 10 years. It's been, you know, very much focused on eat plants, love life. So the quality of the ingredients, but very much focused on the plants inside the pot. And there was a real desire to transform the brand into a much broader lifestyle brand and that's where I was brought in so essentially it's like how Joe how can you take this brand and turn us into something that people are going to really see as part of their lifestyle and again that's the point of simplifying and exaggerating you know it was it was it's almost the simplest things that you you realize can be you can explode in a really big way so BOL bring on life it's like this is it's the most simple idea but it's a truth that connects the products through to how it makes you feel and that kind of unstoppable feeling that we were looking to kind of bring to life so so yes I was kind of part of that that journey and transforming the brand from that kind of eat plants love life to bring on life eating to feel unstoppable and yes worked on the launch campaign so we had you know posters all over all over london i worked with a brilliant um film producer to create a film to kind of announce the new the new era of the brand and it really kind of started from there and then i think it was a gradual process of going from you know the plants in the pots with the soups and the meals to you know a power shake which is it's the ultimate encapsulation of bringing on life it's a really enjoyable product full of great stuff and great nutrition which helps you feel unstoppable so yeah on the power shakes specifically it was a real journey with so many learnings along the way you know the first iteration of the power shakes really i mean they were great from a nutritional perspective and you know people who are real health freaks absolutely loved them but they weren't really kind of appealing to that mass mainstream audience so part of my brief was like right how can we take the concepts that make you know bring flavors that people will really really enjoy drinking um keeping that same nutrition and I guess that's almost it's probably the thing that's connected every part of my career journey so far it's like I almost see my job as like getting the best ingredients but wrapping them up in a in a in a liquid and in a in a packaging that people are just going to love consuming so yeah and it was it was a really interesting journey and you know people do humans want to have their cake and eat it so they want to have something that tastes insanely delicious but is also going to be really good for them and that was a journey and we did find some really incredible new ingredients along the way like monk fruit which you know gives that incredible sweetness for very you know little sort of on the calorie front but equally no nothing artificial so it was yeah it was a real journey and i think that the latest power shakes are the ultimate you know they are really now kind of ready to rocket and i know that they're now in in in holland and in other u in other markets as well so yeah it's been a been a great journey and a great fun team to work with yeah no i think uh i've tried every iteration in the power shakes and i agree it's like the the early ones i remember the it was a glass bottle the bottle was amazing but it wasn't quite there it's quite savory it was a little bit grainier in texture and it's like i get it from a health perspective but i'm not going to rush back because it's just ultimately you want it to feel a little bit naughty a little bit indulgent but but you need to know it's good for you there's that like kind of balance of it needs to be both so i feel like that's almost where you are now it's the same equivalent of a mash gang beer tastes like a beer like it is beer it's exactly the same thing it's not like you're going oh it's So it's good, but it misses this.

27:59It's like, no, actually, it's a great beer. I think that's the beauty. So from all your lessons and learnings, is there anything you're going to translate into Dione Life in how you get the message out there, what you guys represent, or even how you operate internally going, okay, this was a really good thing that we've done in this business? Yeah. So I think the number one thing that I see as my role is, you know, whether I'm working with somebody in the team or a new creator or a partner, it's like, how can we truly disrupt the market, get noticed, and then make people, you know, understand how we fit into their repertoire and essentially bring to life, you know, that product and build that emotional connection.

28:40So I will take on as well the Kaizen continual improvement. We're going to keep making the beers even better. The category just keeps moving at pace. Everybody is bringing out drinks that get better and better and more and more aligned with full strength alternatives. So we can never rest on our laurels. We've got to keep making the product better. And we've got to keep, you know, just making people fall in love with the brands. Yeah. And obviously, MASH Gang recently getting into Waitrose, doing the Waitrose Winter Festival. I think that's great. We did it last year as La For Marjorie and it was an incredible experience.

29:16What a cool festival and experience. Are you there both days or a weekend? What's your involvement for the next festival part? Yeah, well, I mean, to be honest, I love nothing more than talking to people on the grounds and seeing their reaction. I mean, literally nothing beats that sort of that moment where people go from a little bit cynical to tasting the drink and like, wow, bloody hell, that actually tastes really good. So I'm looking forward to, you know, every time I'm out there tasting with consumers, it just gives you such a buzz, doesn't it? so I'll be there at least one day this weekend again it's like it's we're very we're really lean teams it's entirely the team we're on rotation everybody will be taking their turn and I think it's really important no matter which part of the business you work in that you're out there talking to to consumers the whole team's involved and we've got a bit of a rota going over the weekend are you going there with with your no sadly I'm not it was one of the things when I joined PAX was like we need to go as a team just for a day out because the amount of people that came in and to be honest everyone was leaving just absolutely hammered like the amount of free food and drink I think having MASH gang and it's a nice little break to help people's Ebra strike because people very much took advantage of the free alcohol side so yeah no we've had a real learning on that actually with the alcohol free drinks and that's because we've done a couple of festivals and you know events over the summer and if you solely focus on catching people on a big night out people tend to be on a on a bit of a mission to get to their you know to get to the bar that they're you know their destination to their night out we actually had a big success at a music festival that ran over three or four days which essentially meant every single person who came to that event had at least a few moments during that weekend where they you know they were just open to trying something that didn't have alcohol in it and that's the moment where you catch them and they're like wow this is this is like nothing else I've tried before in the alcohol-free space because like I say that there are barriers that we have to break down because some people have had a bad experience and it makes it harder but more rewarding when you win those people over and they're like you know what this just tastes like the real thing it just tastes like a beer it just tastes like a real spritz it's yeah it's great yeah I mean we were we were in the cheese cellar selling well i say sampling plant-based cheese and we wouldn't tell people we're just like do you have any allergens and just checking them because they were nut-based cheeses we just let people try it and oh it's really creamy that's really good and i was like and that's vegan and they're like what and i had a few people who would come back and be like this is the best cheese i've eaten in this room so having those kind of moments i think it's the same it's like just letting people try it be like oh do you want some great beer and by the way it's alcohol free you see that like shock on people's faces they're like no it can't be vegan cheese now it's delicious there's acasci nuts and that must be a lot more expensive to produce than dairy cheese so yeah so yeah it's a fun one but again they're doing amazing Ailish has recently been on the podcast and sent me some more of their new range so delicious but I'd love to now talk about some of your the highest highs in your career like campaigns or marketing things that you've been involved in that you're like this was probably a career highlight and then really tough day where something just didn't go to plan.

32:34I'd love to kind of get that contrast because you've got a whole host of things to be able to pick from. Wow. Okay. Well, I mean, there's one example that was probably a bit of both, bittersweet. So I remember back in the day launching the Innocent Juice range. And the other thing that was great about Innocent actually was that we did have, I mean, yes, it was really a lovely, playful, fun business, but behind the scenes, wow, there were some brains in the business and whatever business proposal you put forward you can guarantee would be pulled apart in a good way they would they would challenge make make sure no stone was unturned um and there was one particular occasion where um you know my brief was right we need to cut through in the juice category in a sea of tetra packs in that fixture and we have this great idea to launch innocent juice in a carafe as we called it it's the bottle and i remember going into a board meeting rich adam and john you know each of them there so how's this going to go and i said well look we we want to launch innocent juice in this lovely bottle it means the liquid's a star of the show it just looks delicious looks zingy looks refreshing but here's the catch um we can't afford to put it in a litre carafe because you know the the the financials just don't stack up um but we've got a whole new concept we're putting in a 900 mil bottle and a 1.5 litre bottle.

33:57And we're linking it back to the number of portions of fruit in each bottle. So 900 ml is, you know, is exactly six portions of fruit 150 ml a go. Yeah, it was kind of essentially I put together the rationale and there was a lot of cynicism. It was like, I'm not sure if this is going to work or not. But we did the maths, we did the consumer testing, we got it on shelf and wow it just it just flew within you know within the first six months or apple juice had already overtaken you know capella really big apple juice brands it was completely the right decision it was it was sort of it was one of those days you're like you know this is my big new launch and i'm not sure if it's going to get you know if it's going to work but i think that was a great example of you know the risk paying off and and taking those you know those disruptive steps and it just yeah it just it did look fantastic in a sea of in a sea of cartons you love that yeah i remember when they first launched to be like oh this is fun like even just like the shape of the bottle being able to like pick it up like hold it by like the neck of the bottle and yeah obviously the the liquid inside doing the heavy lifting because once you try it like oh that's delicious so i think as you said the product has to be really good how you package it market it that's what gets people in but what keeps people is that that quality and i think again mash gang are about great at doing both of them before anyone other than waitrose if people want to get hold of mash gang or try any of these brands like where can people find the products so we are on our d2c websites and we're also on amazon so very easy to get hold of and then you know in terms of the beer yep we're in waitrose and we're also in quite a number of independent outlets especially in Brighton which was really the heart of the brand before before it grew so we've got some awesome venues down in Brighton from Bison Beach Bar to the Dome the West Tap so um yeah definitely get it and I have to say when you drink the beer on draft it really really is the special experience so and we also got lots of pubs up in the sort of Leeds and Manchester area but yes watch this space we're continually looking to um to expand amazing and And if people want to get hold of you specifically, where's the best place to do that?

36:14So LinkedIn is great. You know, it's, yeah, I mean, LinkedIn is just easy, isn't it? I will get LinkedIn as a sponsor one day. I'm like every single episode, we're bringing people to you. Come on. But final question is the music one. So this is one I ask every guest. If there's a particular song that really comes to mind when you think of your working career, whether it's a particular brand or business or just there's a story around it, like what is that song for you? So this was an easy one. it has to be Phil Collins in the air tonight. And I'll tell you why, because back in the day, throughout my 10 years at Innocent, every single Friday without fail, five o 'clock, that song would start playing.

36:54Obviously, it's great. It's got the slow intro and it builds up and the drinks trolley would be coming around through towers. And you just knew it was the start of the weekend and I've actually mentioned it to my team at the moment I'm like this is the feeling that we want MASH gang to bring it's like you know it's the end of the day the working day and the beginning of the evening when morale just lifts everyone's in a good mood and how can we really kind of capture that feeling um and I just yeah the song's obviously great it was um used in one of the best marketing campaigns of all time um with the gorillas so yeah it's got to be Phil Collins yeah love that I'm pretty sure I've heard someone else reference that before in the past and I think you need to get Mashed Gang on that uh on that trolley it needs to be part of their routine now as well assuming it's still going yeah that's that's good longevity at least one play a week for that song but no this has been brilliant I think you've moved into a really exciting category sounds like you've had a phenomenal career working with great brands and doing amazing things so it's been really nice to kind of unpick some of those and I'm excited to see what is next for building these brands where you're working now.

38:02Fabulous. Well, thanks so much for having me, Mitch. And yeah, good luck with PACT. It's, yeah, new exciting ventures. Thank you so much. And to everyone listening, thank you so much. We will see you on the next episode. Goodbye.