#72 - Chloe Reeley - Holos Kombucha [Head of Sales]

0:00Hello, hello, hello. Welcome back to the founders. Today I'm joined by the wonderful Chloe Reale who is head of sales at Holos Kombucha. Now, Holos is an absolutely incredible mission-led kombucha brand doing amazing stuff for the community and tackling modern-day slavery. The products they make are all Great Taste Award winning. I am obsessed with the Citra Hopped version. It is like the best non-alcoholic beer you've ever had. And I love Chloe's energy. We see each other at events all the time. We've known each other a few years now, and it's great to see how her career has chopped and changed and dig into the ins and outs of LucasAid Feed, lead Lily's Kitchen and all the great success they're having at Holos already like their waitress listing.

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1:35Hello and welcome back to the Unfounders. Today I'm joined by the wonderful Chloe Reely. So Chloe, can you please let everyone know where you work and what your role is there? Yeah, of course. Hi Mitch. Hi, I'm Chloe. I work for Holos Kombucha. I'm the head of sales and we make a beautiful range of delicious tasting award winning drinks down in West Sussex, all tea based, all organic, all natural. And for those who've never heard of Olos or don't know anything about the brand, the story, like give us a spiel, like who owns the brand? Like, how did it happen? Like, what is it about your kombucha that's so special?

2:10Yeah, love that question. So the purpose of the brand is actually we're a social impact business. So we were founded and we're set up and we run specifically to support survivors of modern slavery, trauma, exploitation. It all began like about 10 years ago when Naomi and Megan met in Cambodia. They were on a charity trip to directly support women on the streets, basically, who've been trafficked or exploited. And what they realized on that trip was the impact of work and having meaningful employment opportunities and how much that can change individuals' lives and help them rebuild a new life.

2:56And it's also the kind of the hardest thing to get into, but it's the number one factor that really changes people's lives in that situation. so the entire business model was designed around being able to create opportunities for vulnerable people and actually be set up to support them give them the flexibility to be able to get back up on their feet into society modern slavery really is a silent hidden crisis and but it's the fastest growing crime in the UK so that's why we exist and how we support people but in terms of the team and the founders we've actually got we're spoiled we've got four founders so Megan and Naomi are the ones I mentioned who we met on that trip and then a couple of years later is when they actually founded Holos so that was back in 2019 with their wonderful husbands Tom and Joseph and each of them bring their own like magic and there's just the most beautiful array of complementary skill sets amongst the four of them which is beautiful so Tom's our managing director, leader.

4:01He's the brains behind the machine. He's got a background in engineering. So, I mean, that makes sense. He keeps us all in check. And he's the master brewer as well. So, this is one of our lovely kombuchas. That's the ginger in his fist. It's delicious. Yeah, he just makes sure the product's perfect, keeps us all motivated. And then Joseph is another co-founder. He's our kind of creative genius. um he does all the photography videos marketing he's also just really fun he's a break dancer and just a bit silly you know brings the brings the energy and the passion and the vibes um and then naomi she's like the master of the coaching and the leadership and um and obviously is her between her and megan as well they're leading the holos foundation which is you know part owned um by by holos is part owned by the foundation that they're sort of running and leading um yeah she brings the the love and the energy and the kindness and the spirit to the team and then megan who's been like for the last decade working directly with survivors here and in cambodia she's just an incredible powerhouse yeah brilliant brilliant woman and she does a lot of the marketing and the writing and supports us but they've actually also got between the two couples they've got six kids between them as well so it's so fun it's completely unique uh experience in terms of a place to work because there's just always always fun and kids running around and energy we've got a Christmas party the week after next and they're all going to be there so I love it it's great love that yeah four founders is quite the quite the experience but aside from the the founders how how big is the team now and do you guys have an office do you work remote like what's the the setup at the moment I imagine with six kids running around it might be a bit more of a hybrid approach yeah hybrid for sure I'm London based and the units in West Sussex where we brew and craft everything ourselves.

5:54I tend to go down every other week, but Tom and Joseph are in there most days because they're managing and running the brewing with a couple of other team members and then with Sam as well, who does our marketing. So there's seven of us in total full time and then obviously other people supporting. Love that. And for you personally, how did you come across the brand? because I think we haven't touched on it yet, but my favorite is the hopped one. Like it's a three-star Great Taste Award winning. I remember the first time I tried it, I was like, wow, it was unlike any other kombucha I've ever had.

6:27It's absolutely kind of like my favorite flavor when it comes to the kombucha sphere of flavors. And I think you guys have absolutely nailed it. And I think when I saw you at an event the other week, it was like, yeah, pretty much every flavor has won a Great Taste Award. How did you discover the brand? And what was it about the opportunity with Holos that you were like, yeah, I could see myself doing this. Like, why kombucha? Great question. So I've been obsessed with all things gut health for the last probably four or five years. And I moved within my career, I guess, to smaller startups, challenger brands, because I just love the excitement and the pace and the opportunity and the meaning and the purpose behind these brands as well.

7:09And Holos stood out to me because of the social purpose was the main thing for me that resonated. And wanting to commit myself to a bigger purpose and knowing that the more we grow, the more people we'll be able to support and more lives we'll be able to change. But most of all, I just love it. It's such a tasty drink. I first found it in Whole Foods and we're really growing our distribution. And the Citra Hop is just an absolute smash. Thank you for putting that in there. Yeah, three-style Great Taste Award. Every single one of our children has won a Great Taste Award, which we're super proud of.

7:46And we've actually, for the first time, brought out a festive limited edition. This is our Mold Spice Kombucha, which is a literal taste and smell of Christmas. And I think it's really nice to have a soft drink that feels festive, that's healthy at this time of year. It's really hard to come by. So this is our first year doing that, but we're going to go even bigger next year because we make everything ourselves in-house. We have such opportunity to make new, exciting things, special things and turn things around really quickly. And I genuinely think Tom and Joseph are geniuses when it comes to taste and flavour.

8:24And the Citra Hops was just their baby and that came from a love of IPA really and just experimenting, putting the two together and it creating something really, really special and really unique as well. As I said, I haven't tried anything else that is like that one. And I mean, yeah, I had plenty of samples and took some home from the Hoolahan Loki event the other week. And the festive one, I can confirm, absolutely delicious. I think right now as we're recording this, we're going to that Christmas period. It's super festive and it's nice to have that more adult soft drink that you know is better for you.

8:56And it's not just like a Diet Coke or something like that, which has this place. Like, let's not beat around the bush, like still love it from time to time. but few and far between I think if it's the the option between those two it just it has that kind of like quality and that experience and then you go yeah I'm getting a bit of goodness for it too so for um for you like how how long have you been in uh Holos now and what have been some of the the highlights in your in your time there so I actually only joined in June which doesn't feel like very long but so much has happened in that time the first thing I guess we did when I joined was realize we were so we as I said we manufacture everything ourselves but we were also picking packing and shipping every single order even Amazon so there was no way we were going to be able to continue to scale and we had you know people that should have been doing marketing and packing orders so the first thing I did was look at 3PLs and lead a project to get into third-party logistics so that we could really scale and grow and we actually ended up in two different ones because we had our Waitrose launch kind of happen in the middle of all of this, which has been incredible.

10:06It was our dream partnership. And yeah, so far, so good. But yeah, we need a separate feed PR for that. So kind of getting everything set up there and getting to know the team and the category and building a pipeline. It's been full on, but it's been by far my favorite place I've ever worked just because of how special the team are because of the vision and that combination the dream combination of having that alongside a incredible product that I truly believe in that has you know also got the health benefits and is completely raw and pasteurized live bacteria just just just good for the gut so so yeah having those those elements for me was has been the best best part yeah no I love that um and now I'd love to kind of take things right the way back to kind of early days in your career and your experience like growing up kombucha probably wasn't even a thing when you were younger like I feel like it's just kind of fallen to the scene in these last few years yeah so when you were younger what was your kind of like vision for what you would be doing when you were grown up and kind of how have you then got to where you are today like what brands have you worked for and what have you done good question I I actually wanted to be an optician growing up I don't know why I've never really been able to work out that because I I ended up going into A-levels to do science and maths because I was like yeah well obviously I'm going to be an optician like do I like science like is this is this what I want and I was a bit lost to be honest thinking what on earth am I going to do if not that I think it was just a genuine obsession with eyes and yeah fascination really with them I kind of took a step back at that point and my sister was probably my biggest inspiration because she'd gone on like a sales training course and had at this point had a few different roles within that space and that opened my eyes really in terms of what a career in sales can look like and the opportunities and mostly I just wanted to be speaking to people and I kind of told myself that you know I'll be helping people and you can make a difference and it is a good pace of work as well and I also the first couple of roles I had were all field-based as well and I was terrified of working in an office behind a screen even though that's basically what I do now most of the time so yeah I think the first couple of roles always been in the food and drink space so started off on water coolers and coffee machines moved to Lucade Ribena did that for three and a half years in various roles also did a stint in marketing there which I really enjoyed I wanted to be creative and wanted to get involved in the bigger projects and see something I'd created on the shelf but yeah I think I missed the pace of sales the excitement and to be honest I flew straight back into there and that point was like yeah this is where I see my career going and after that I moved to Lily's Kitchen and I'm obsessed with animals and pets I've got a little dog so she she was a Lily's Kitchen baby whilst I was working there for a couple of years in groceries in account management and then that's when I thought I'd kind of moved to a startup actually funnily enough there was 80 of us which grew over the two years I was there and I realized towards the end of that journey that I wanted something smaller and something where I could be involved in every aspect of the business and make a difference and grow something you know with with purpose as well so my first role in a startup was at feed which I know you know Mitch make delicious plant-based meals that are really convenient 100 % natural whole foods just to try and really increase people's veggie veggie content um in a really convenient way um Shane was the founder and still to this day one of my biggest um inspirational people in my life um I I love that so that was I did that for over a year and then and then that's when I found Holos to be honest and I think I just kind of pivoted so I moved from the Lily's Kitchen of over 100 people when I left to being employee number two um which is a big jump and there were definitely things I missed and I think the the pull of Holos was like the family aspect and being in and around a team again so I I wouldn't ever underestimate the power of just being around a really great team and having people there at all times that's what that's what I really miss but I absolutely love I'm still involved and I still love the the mission of the business and everything they do and I'll always be a customer and a supporter of the brand but right now I feel like I'm in the space where I want to commit you know the next however long it is five ten years probably ten years to this brand amazing yeah I'd love to know that from like you said you did the water coolers then it was like Lucas A Ribena and then going to Lily's Kitchen like oh I've gone into a challenger obviously like Lily's is now massive brand as well and I think Lucas A would have been even bigger so from these these bigger businesses what were some of the I guess lessons and learnings for you because you said even at LucasAid you went from sales to marketing and got moved around and I think it's been really eye-opening for me I've never been in these kind of bigger companies or roles but all the people I'm speaking to a lot of them are like oh yeah when I was at Pepsi they did this and this and Unilever did this and this and Kellogg's did this so I think it's very interesting how these big businesses do promote people and push them to go hey you're doing this but why don't we see how you are in this space what was your experience going through that and have you taken anything with you into feed or into um holos that you're like yeah like we need to make sure this is in place to grow there have been so many learnings from those experiences in those bigger companies and i wouldn't change it at all i was very fortunate within luce to be making contacts and sort of have an expressing an early interest in marketing and wanting to kind of i guess grow get that that cross-channel experience and understand different aspects of the business and I think even now there are there are so many things I've learned and brought into startups but the main the main thing is just the pace like you're really working at such a slower pace in these businesses and that's why I was literally speaking to my friend yesterday he's only ever worked at big businesses and I was like you need to take the leap like challenger brands is where it's at it you it It does not compare at all.

16:49No, your days and weeks look really quite similar in these bigger businesses. You know what to expect. You're kind of on a bit of a conveyor belt, which maybe some people love and I appreciate that. But for me, I think you just miss the magic and the excitement and the variety that you get in a small business. But I think by having both, I was able to pull on certain learnings and systems in terms of how I'm tracking things and measuring things and getting into the category data and other aspects of my job. I think I really benefit from having that experience and also contacts. You know, I think I met so many great people.

17:30Some of them are still my best friends to this day. So I definitely wouldn't change a single thing. But I'm really pleased that my career sort of went in this direction. and that I am working in the challenges space. Was there anything like a trade-off in terms of like, oh, like a Lucas A. Rubino, obviously budgets for marketing, for promotions, for all of this are kind of going to be huge. And then you go into a smaller brand and be like, oh, let's do it like this. Because I've kind of had the opposite where I've gone from like working in small brands where it's like, we haven't really got any budget to now like even with Pax.

18:03So actually, you know, like we're going to be tactical and these are going to be our promotion schedules and we're going to build this costume and it's like much more structured and something that I've kind of learned as I went. But I think if you're going from the big experience to smaller, it must feel like you're like, oh, where's my pot of marketing money gone? But it does make you so much more creative, I think, when you don't have those big budgets. You know, sometimes you're sort of spending it because you have to and it's there and there's so much pressure to grow that like 1 % market share or just literally turnover.

18:35over I I like the the the creativity that comes in the challenger space with these small budgets and we've created so many fun campaigns we've got something really fun coming out this week actually and just just just silly bits I mean it would be be nice I think to have like unlimited budgets and do loads of stuff but equally I think you really need to be careful about how you how you grow and how you pace as well at this stage of our business especially when we're making everything ourselves so I think yeah we're on a good a good trajectory with it yeah I think it's it's also the thing of like a lot of challenger brands or smaller brands when they have that investment on that injection of cash like oh we've got money we can spend it it's so easy to spend money so I think that's the other thing it's being tactical on where and how you spend that budget and how you promote things like for for Holos obviously you've mentioned Waitrose like for those listening and be like I think I've heard of it or like where can I find it like are you retail first are you DTC do you have a food service like wholesale angle like what's the kind of business split or goal for the growth of the brand and the business from your perspective like from a head of sales absolutely so we are primarily DTC and we're on Amazon as well and that's where we see the most part of our revenue at the moment but I think that our forecast for the next year is that that really is going to shift heavily towards retail and Waitrose being the biggest one of those.

20:05And then we are in wholesale as well. We've got a bigger growing out-of-home sector as well and a lot of exciting stuff in the pipeline, some really good partnerships with some great restaurants, coffee shops and like hotel as well. But I think that for me retail is the most exciting space and getting that first foot in the door, So much build up and effort goes into that. And then you get there and then you realise, oh my God, there's so much more work to do because staying on the shelf, I think, is the hardest thing, improving that rate of sale. So we have literally pulled every lever and even without budget, even without a massive budget, I think there's so much that you can do in terms of how you're targeting even on social media, people near the stores that shop there just to let them know that we're there, whether it's, you know, couponing or media and every single thing we can do to drive that we will because we want to prove that rate of sale, maintain that distribution and grow our listings in that space.

21:10Yeah, no, absolutely. I think that's all very well said and very vital in terms of like how you can activate and how you can grow and being being clever with budgets. And I mean, the brand, I think it's a gorgeous brand that's like looks super nice. And I think the liquid being so good is obviously what you need. So how are you guys for events and things like that, like coming into 2026 now? Are you guys turning up at events? Are you doing consumer trade shows? like what's your kind of view when it comes to actually getting liquid on lips because in the drinks world that seems to be the big conversion is like people have to try it love it and then go where can I find it yeah I think liquid on lips is like massive for us because our repeat purchase rate on our Shopify is almost 70 so we know that when people try it they keep coming back they love it so events are huge for us um we've been at London Coffee Festival the last couple of years we've done lunch actually this year for the first time I think we did a couple of years ago but yeah back back on that one which I really enjoyed and then we're going to try and actually run some more of our own little events we did a brew live recently and basically had 10 pairs of people come in to one of our coffee shop partners and then Joseph who's our fun creative head of master the brewer he ran a live workshop which we streamed on instagram and everyone in the room brewed their own kombucha in the brew kit which we do sell the brew kits as well so people can make it at home and they got to take it take it away with them and keep it keep it brewing at home so we want to do more things like that and actually partner with some of our wholesalers and some of our key customers to run those workshops when we're trying to get into offices in different areas and then we're looking at sort of a galentine's event and a international women's day event where we can loop everything back to our social purpose and how we're supporting survivors and and women and i think that the the message is is quite a hard one to talk about and and i don't think people really understand a lot about the people that we're working with and the struggles they've had so I really I'm excited to do more things to bring not just our brand forward but highlighting other a lot of our charity partners and a lot of other brands that are supporting survivors and talking about this and just making it more making people more aware of that space and how they can get involved to support people as well yeah no I love that I think it's you see the likes of Tony's or even like citizens of soil like talking about their producers their growers and just being like super transparent on like supply chain or how we work with people or how we support communities and give back and I think owning that kind of like event space and bringing people kind of into the brand and along with the story there's so much to that even today I was talking to someone and it's kind of like there's a very big difference between kind of like having a product and having a brand which stands for something and people are like emotionally invested into as well as actually going well the product itself is amazing so I love it so I think that's there's a lot around that in terms of like the brands who are doing really well are often the ones who are doing all this other great stuff as well so I think that's really exciting to see love that yeah I agree I think that's that's why I wanted to get into this space and that's what I always tell people even if they don't want to work for Challenger it's about supporting those brands because you can have so much more impact and you can that yeah the charity aspects And I think, yeah, it really frustrates me that so much of what we consume in this country comes from these massive, massive corporations, you know, who are doing the absolute bare minimum to help people.

24:57They're just driving profit at the end of the day. I'm a huge fan of the B Corp movement, you know, and balancing the environment and the communities with, you know, making profit. it I think that that's what business should should should be doing as a responsibility there and at the moment it's just so massively out of balance but there is a shift and I think that that shift will continue and people are becoming more and more aware of what they're consuming and who they're supporting and the bigger picture yeah totally agree and um it's a nice movement and I think it is I mean even like bringing politics into it like right now seeing the movement of the Green Party and Zach Polanski, who's just absolute icon, like huge fan, seeing that conversation come to life.

25:41And like, he's sounds like he's someone who is actually talking relevant stuff that people go, yeah, like this does make sense. Why are we just turning a blind eye to these big companies doing everything? Everyone should be looked after, like you can just do a little bit from these people and it's going to have way more impact than actually hitting everyone hard. So I think as a consumer, when you are going, where am I going to spend my money? actually voting with your money like that was a huge part at cura it was like vote with your fork like every time you're buying food or drink like that is a vote of confidence or belief in what that brand is doing so it's really valuable to those who are actually supporting causes versus like a massive conglomeration who is just like a drop in the ocean for them exactly yeah it's got deep and zach is an icon as well i literally love him he's given me hope for the first time in politics in this country for a while him and jez and corbin obviously yeah obviously classic but now i'd love to i always ask everyone about kind of a tough time but i think it's uh i still want to dig into like through your experience like especially with sales what have been some of your favorite moments in your career because i think for me i fell into sales it's something i never really imagined doing but there's those moments of those wins where you see products on shelf or in a customer and you're like i did that it's a really nice feeling i think across all these great brands you worked for I'd love to know some of like your your real highlights of like yeah like these are the proud moments in my career a big highlight for me was being at Lily's Kitchen and launching in M &S so that all came about they had a really poor kind of pet food range and I'm like you're a premium beautiful grocer you should have premium natural pet food every pet deserves that the quality of some of theirs was you know just not as natural as as what we were rooting for as as a brand um so there was like a six month period of of relentless communication with them and eventually we got to speaking to the buyer and it was kind of that you you find in sales these things do take so much longer than we think um it's a relentless process but you sort of stick to it if you really believe in something and you have a vision and eventually when we got speaking to the buyer and stuff we did face a lot of initial resistance but we managed to agree to a listing in the end and I remember when we were recommending what we wanted to put on the shelf you know and I think I said well we may as well go with like recommend eight well we recommended 16 SKUs because I thought they'll probably pick a couple so eight dog SKUs eight cat SKUs um and they came back and listed like 13 and we took over like almost half of the entire pet food fixture in up to like 500 stores so it was a completely crazy um I think that was my most proud achievement for seeing the like from start to finish all the way through in the setup and working with them and then seeing the results in the end and being the only sort of natural pet food available there.

28:53So, yeah, I always look back fondly at that and my time there. And with feed as well, I think from the opportunities that come from contacts that you make, you know, out in your networking or, you know, I've had just friends from uni that have helped me and given me sort of ins with buyers and things like that. And there were some huge wins that came, yeah, just from that with Feed as well. So, yeah, but I think the proudest thing for me is getting set up and doing everything at Holos with Waitrose. Gosh, you'll know how much goes into something like that, especially as a first retailer. So, yeah.

29:34Yeah, I'd say, I would say Waitrose. I mean, I knew it from Farmery. We're still knocking on that door, fighting with Dutchie, trying to get our lovely frozen fruit and veg into Waitrose. And you've got in Waitrose. not yet that's the thing everyone assumes Pact is a Waitrose brand and we're like come on guys but we've got some very exciting I mean we've got frozen pomegranate which is a I think a proper Waitrose product so that's one that's like let's make it happen but yeah hopefully by listening now we're murmuring away in the background and it's coming for 2026 because I saw La For Marjorie is in Waitrose isn't it?

30:06Yeah yeah La For Marjorie is I mean right now it's the Christmas Christmas hamper time it's absolutely delicious Ailish came on the other week so they're combined honestly tasty now and just they are ultimately like absolute incredible vegan cheese producers so yeah hopefully by now anyone listening has had their lovely cheese boards and has well gone because we're we're gonna be in january when this comes out but now i would like to talk about the tough times um that's obviously absolutely amazing i think seeing all the work that goes into it and then actually walk up to a fixture where i mean 13 skews is like wow that's quite a quite a brand block.

30:41Amazing. What an achievement. But now on the other end of the spectrum when something like that hasn't gone to plan or it's seeming good and pulled last minute like what for you what's been one of those tough days where you're like that was really hard. I think over the years I've I've dealt with all sorts. There's been catastrophic D-lists recalls there's we've had to let people go we've lost people there's been gosh harassment every type of drama tragedy and disaster you could possibly imagine has happened over the years um but what i would say is it just made me closer to all the people around me at work and i think that's why i've formed such strong friendships with the people i've worked with and having my sister my friends and family my dog um around me just to just to sort of pause and like reset and get through the day i i can't think of an example of like one particular moment that that sticks out in terms of tough because it's you get one a week and a start off there's always somewhere where you know sales are declining or something needs needs changing or you've run out of stock or you have to have a recall you know um it really it really is quite constant yeah but that's why we do it we live for it exactly you've got to have the highs and the lows because you've got experience both to get that that steady middle of like okay everything's pretty good right now it's not the highest high it's not the lowest low but it's good it's good so yeah i think that's super super important but yeah it does definitely build resilience and i think on that for you now such great sales experience and fantastic career to anyone who's looking to get into this space or into the industry you've obviously had big brand experience small brand experience what would your top advice be would it be like right get the big brand then go to a small brand just get involved where's your head at now in terms of if someone came to you like hey I really want to get into the food and drink world what's your kind of top recommendation the number one thing I would tell someone is just work for a startup I think that should be a priority before I worked in the startup space I I wanted my own business for as long as I can remember and I'd come up with a brand I whole business plan I poured so much into it I'd even started the company and like was working on this chug chug chugging away in the background before I'd actually joined feed and then I took a bit of a step back from that and thought right I'm just going to focus on feed and building this brand and you learn so much so quickly but I think that unless you've been in there and you've done it it's really easy to underestimate the level of stress pressure esters side noise and you know internally as well hiring and managing people there are so many challenging elements to running a business that I kind of actually changed my mind to be honest and I was like nah I if I if I do start a business it will be a lifestyle business I'm dreaming of like a doggy daycare on the beach you know or like a little doggy rescue sanctuary or just something where I can incorporate the charity but launching a brand in FMCG no way like I'm not going to do that because I've seen the toll it can take and I know what's there and it's not that I don't think I can do that it's just weighing that up with everything else in in life you know so many there There is probably a bit of a fantasy about what it's like running your own business and being your own boss.

34:28And my number one piece of advice is just try it first, you know, go and work for a challenger. And if you come out of that and you really think this is something I want to do, and maybe in five years I'll change my mind and be like, yeah, OK, I'm ready to do this. But yeah, it can really change your perspective. And also you build such a network as well when you start working in this space. And I think that that's such a good foundation if you do want to start a business as well. So you'll get the experience, the insider knowledge, the network, and you'll know what you're getting yourself into before you start raising or start pouring your life and your finances into something that might be incredible.

35:09But sometimes things that are, you know, incredible just don't make it because it's so hard out there. And the landscape is really tricky. And there's so many things we don't consider before sort of jumping into it. So that's been my biggest takeaway and learning. Yeah, I get asked all the time, are you going to start another business? I'm like, no, I had my foray into that. Like for me right now, I'm still living and breathing like it's my own brand. Like it's that same thing. But I also I have a salary. I have security, I have like consistent stuff. And also at the end of the day, it's not my business.

35:44It's not my brand as much as I live and breathe it. Ultimately, the same level of headaches and stress and all of that. Obviously, I lived through some of them, but not all of them. And I think that's the major point of difference. And I think exactly why the Unfounder starts, because I really want to normalize being an employee, but actually being an employee where you live like an entrepreneur, you have that experience, you work in the great brands. you're as involved as the founders and you're still being able to come up with ideas and see that direct impact you can have as a single employee.

36:15I think that's so powerful. And it's exactly why I wanted to get you on because I think you're doing amazing things. Thanks, Mitch. And it's really good to be here. I love the podcast. I'm really happy to be a guest. Well, final question. You'll know it's coming. It's the music one. Yes. What song comes to mind for you when you think of your career or your experience? I've been excited about this question to be honest um this song is because of all the incredible people I've worked for that have inspired me in so many different ways so it's Gabrielle dreams because they can come true and I've watched it happen um even if they don't I think there's so much that you learn from that and actually you realize you're back on on the path but you've really got to have that initial sort of spark and idea and drive and the vision of Holos was obviously just to to change people's lives and and help people and yeah having that dream and then yeah watching that come true one one person at a time one story at a time amazing yeah perfect um what an absolute tune that'll get added to the playlist um so yeah love it for anyone who wants to get hold of you is linkedin the best place or if they want to find out more about the brand like where should they go yes so i'm on linkedin um and holos obviously is on linkedin as well and you can follow us and all the founders on there um i'm always open to a message or email or anything yeah brilliant yeah and uh i think for for anyone listening if you haven't tried it get to waitress go support that listing and definitely if you see the citra hopped version i don't know if that's one of the ones that's in waitress but it's there good i know what i'd buy next time i'm near a waitress but no absolutely love this really fun to chat and thank you so much for your time thanks Mitch it was great to see you and to everyone listening thanks so much we will see you on the next episode goodbye