Any Given Wednesday

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1:05Congratulations. You made the varsity of the podcast. My name is John Aranda, and I'm Puck's sports correspondent and the host of this pod. And today, Kerry Sibowitz joins the pod. Kerry is, behind the scenes, one of the most powerful executives in sports media. He's the co-head of UTA Sports and has a roster of clients like Barstool, Rich Eisen. We're going to talk a lot about the changing market for sports media personalities, the creator market. We're going to hash out the general state of the sports media business. But before we get to Jerry, today is Sunday, May 17th, and here's what I'm watching.

1:41The NFL released its 2026 schedule on Thursday, and there are a few aspects to it that I find particularly interesting. First, there's all the new windows. NFL games are now going to be played on the Wednesday before Thanksgiving, and the league added a couple of Saturday windows in December as well. A record number of nine games are going to be played internationally. Now, I can tell you in conversations with some of my friends, they're all confused. That's because way back when, the NFL used to be just on Sundays. Then they added Monday, then Thursday, then Saturday, then some Sunday mornings.

2:15Now you can throw in a couple of Wednesdays too. When does all of this become too much? Now, in the NFL's defense, all of these new windows have worked. If you judge the NFL's popularity by its TV ratings, an incomplete but a pretty good measure, the NFL hasn't suffered at all by adding these windows. In fact, you could argue that all these new windows have helped the league to grow. Anyway, that's one storyline to consider. Another one is the streamers. Now, it's no secret that the NFL has looked at streaming deals as a way to grow the game internationally. Netflix, YouTube, Amazon Prime, they all have subscribers across the globe.

2:51But of the league's nine international games next season, only one is going to be carried by a full-scale streamer. Netflix is going to have the week one game between the 49ers and Rams in Australia. Weren't those games supposed to anchor the five-game international package that the league was shopping? The NFL wants the streamers to bid up the international games, But the streamers are mainly interested in big tentpole moments like Netflix's Thanksgiving Eve game or Amazon Prime's Black Friday game. Now, I'm curious to see how and if this changes as the streamers get more addicted to NFL football.

3:27OK, now let's get to Jerry Silbowitz. Jerry Silbowitz, it's always great to have you on the pod. I had you on, I think it was about a year ago that you were on this pod. And we talked about a lot of the issues involving sports media. I see you out frequently and we always sit down and we just hash out a lot of things. You have your finger on the pulse of so many things in sports media. And I think I just want to start with you at like a 50 ,000 foot level. I want to ask you a really open ended question on just the one or two main trends that you're really focused on and really following in sports media right now.

4:05What's what's out there that sort of maybe a little under the radar trend that you're working with? I don't know if it's under the radar, but definitely a trend, you know, especially it's been brewing for years, but I think hit hit an extra high note last year. And it seems to have the momentum staying into this year, which is a lot of the sort of talent led owned and operated IP that they're either delivering direct to their audience or and or partnering with a platform, you know, like a Fox and Netflix and ESPN to, you know, deliver to their audience. You know, so when you see which like our client, Dave Portnoy and Barstool, where great business delivering to their audience every day, but then added Fox as a partner, you know, and delivering, you know, not only Dave and his services and the rest of the gang on BNK, but then also wake up Barstool and in partnership with FS1 or even.

5:01And I think we touched on this as well on the last time what we spoke, but even Rich Eisen moving his show again, but going home. But from a different perspective as a licensed partner with ESPN initially, obviously, fast forward, they acquired the NFL Network and his partnership with them will be more holistic as talent. But that and then you saw Netflix's entree into the podcast market, Fierce and Fast. Again, we were fortunate to be a part of that with Part of My Take, Ryan Russillo and Spitting Chicklets with Dave and the Barstool team, as well as we had other clients like our client Bobby Bones, who's a country music talk personality and his show in partnership with iHeart and the Slate deal they did.

5:46You know, so I think that has and probably will continue in the short term for people who deliver high quality shows with meaningful audience that makes sense to either continue to deliver direct and or with a partner. And I think about the creator economy and sort of its impact in sports media. So, Jerry, let's stick with the creator economy. And I'm particularly interested in like Portnoy and Barstool. and as you look at them, Barstool is so popular. Their podcasts are popular. Why did you want that extension into Fox? What does that extension to have an FS1 show mean to Barstool? It almost seems like Fox almost needs it more than Barstool, I think.

6:37What was the advantage of creating that for something that already was really popular on a digital front? I'd say that I think it was a great complimentary partnership for both sides. You know, I really tip my cap to the leadership team at Fox, you know, from Eric Shanks and Jordan Bajon and Brad Zager and Paul Cheeseborough on the 2B Media Group side, you know, and their vision and their embracing of digital talent and people with followings and audiences and how can that interact and collaborate with the things they do really well in the live event space and some of the studio and the studio weekday shows they do.

7:13So honestly, both sides thought that one another had a great complimentary sort of thing to offer. And, you know, Dave's mission, you know, is, you know, when you look at the Barstool content, it's on a lot of platforms, you know, typically on Barstool branded channels, you know, whether it's a YouTube or X or Twitch or any other, you know, social platform. And when we looked at the Fox opportunity, there was both the live event piece with Big Noon Kickoff and Dave's integration into that. And, you know, wake up Barstool. And I think I have to maybe sort of add on from your conversation with Kafka from was that two weeks ago?

7:53You know, when you look at wake up Barstool, FS1 is the initial platform it exhibits on, not the only platform. So when we look at the way we distribute Barstool IP, that's just the cable window just goes first. It doesn't mean we're not distributing it the way we would any other Barstool show on RSS feed as a pod, on YouTube, on TikTok, on and as the list goes on, both in long form and in short form. You know, the only difference was that there's just one a cable window now that doesn't exist with some of our other shows. But as soon as that window ends at 12 o 'clock, it then goes through our normal digital distribution as well.

8:35You know, so, yes, do we want as many people watching on as many platforms as possible? Always. But in the case of that, we just look at that as an added window and added audience for the cable window. This is why I'm so happy to have you on, Jerry, because, like, I'm a TV guy. And that's sort of that's my whole background. and the numbers for Wake Up Barstool as a TV property aren't big. I don't have them in front of me, but they don't do particularly well. What is the success for you? How do you determine success? Just the fact that you're in that time slot with that Barstool branding? No, it's, look, I mean, yes, great partners are always, I think, a great thing.

9:21And I think both the Fox team and the Barstool team feel the same way about one another because every conversation is always open-minded and sort of let's do what's best for both brands and where can that intersect. But I think consumption, you know, consumption, you know, and again, he was a cable, longtime cable person. And, you know, you can still be a TV guy. We're still watching moving images on a screen. You know, now, you know, when you talk about cable, it's just because a copper wire delivered it to your screen as opposed to an Internet signal in a stream. Come on, Terry. I've had fiber in my house forever, not copper.

9:58Come on. Of course. Of course. I forgot fiber. No, but look, consumption. Consumption, awareness, you know, positive momentum, getting entertaining and informing an audience, being authentic to what the brand stands for. I mean, look, we're on the varsity right now, and the show's origins was as an audio-only podcast show. We've now moved into video, and people will be watching this on Nessun and a variety of other social channels. And it didn't come at the expense of a listener. It just came at the addition of video viewers that weren't already there and now get to see both you and I, which is an additional treat for them.

10:36But again, and I'm going to assume it's the same for you, consumption. And then the other part, and I'm even looking at your content, is that you'll then aggregate and make news off of these conversations that will then get parsed and pieced and delivered to us in a variety of shapes and sizes. So not every part of the success of this show or these shows is how many people download and how many people listen. That's a part of it. But when you look at the total pie and the amount of content it creates and the aggregation it creates and the parsing, it creates an ecosystem and a community. And obviously driving revenue is what we all have to do to keep the lights on and have talented producers and talent.

11:17But that comes, you know, especially in this world today where it comes from doing all of these things and fueling all these things. You know, we probably, you know, it's funny when a cable show would premiere, not a sports show, but some of these non-sport shows would premiere. You'd only look at the initial rating of the initial episode, even though the show would repeat a million times. And it was almost as if that didn't count, you know, and then the success of the show and the fate of a season two pickup would be in the hands of, OK, only the initial exhibition, you know, but then fast forward now when these shows are being reported and if, if it does get a linear window before it goes to a streaming service, it will report it on the initial exhibition as well as the repeats.

12:01And if they're going to multi, you know, platform it, I mean, even when, you know, not that Yellowstone needed any help because it was really successful from a ratings perspective, but they'd have it run on at least three or four Viacom than Viacom channels and it would get a streaming life and it would report it in the aggregate.

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13:09to find out when they feel the most on par. We're breaking it down with Don Lemon, Aaron Parnas, Lamont Jones, laughing it up with Josh Johnson, Dan Soder, many more. You know, the results are in. Great conversations are always on par. So follow and listen to On Par wherever you get your podcasts. Do you buy into the idea that, you know, somebody like Barstool, like it's a brand that is so successful on the internet It's a very successful digital brand. Do you buy any idea that that doesn't necessarily translate to other forms of media like longer form streaming, like cable or broadcast? I think each, I believe, each platform has sort of an audience and a nuance, both from how we serve and deliver our content to them to then how they want to respond and react.

14:02So when you look at the traditional cable bundle, the audience has a certain expectation or could be of a certain age or just might want something a certain way or that are in the case of Barstool. Our audience is also accustomed to getting it on YouTube or X or TikTok or Facebook, wherever they might consume it so that they could still end up watching Wake Up Barstool. They just might watch it after 12 o 'clock on a social channel because that's their habit. You know, so some translate, some don't. I just, you know, even when you look at Pat McAfee, I always thought it was so unfair the way people covered the success of his show on Linear because Pat never took a platform away.

14:47He only added a platform. He was adamant about serving the audience where they were historically accustomed to watching the show or listening, but added a cable window. So people are like, oh, the ratings are down from first take. And not really a fair statistic because Pat's show grew on all the other channels and just added an extra window that didn't exist, as well as the SVOD window. So in terms of conversion, I just think we're in this sort of – we are in this in-between place where we have a variety of consumers watching content, how they are accustomed to doing it, and they have a ton of choices.

15:25So when you asked me earlier, what's success? The success is the aggregate. All right. So I have a two part question for you. The first part is dealing with bona fide stars. You know, you're Dave Portnoy, you're Rich Eisen. Do you want them on as many platforms as possible? Do you want them to be like, is that better for them to as a strategy moving forward? It's a little nuanced, you know, yes, right. If you have a blanket, yes, but not. You have, you want to create value, like a value. What is the value to your partner? What is the value to your audience? You know what, you know, in, in Rich's case, right.

16:08The show still lives in AM FM. It lives as a podcast that streams live on the ESPN app and Disney plus and Hulu. It then has a fantastic life as clips across a myriad of the social channels like we all we all deploy a similar strategy obviously the execution and the quality of the ip and the talent then help deliver an outcome that can vary um so depends like look looking at rich and i'd say for pat and i'd say for some of these and dave and you know the list goes on of other people that are doing this like if you can have an opportunity where you have sort of that talk vehicle that that your show or whatever it is that thing that you do and you're delivering it on, you know, a variety of platforms in different shapes and size that are native to each platform on a platform by platform basis.

16:56And then maybe there's some other aspect of it that touches the live game live event thing, which is different than what you're doing. I mean, look, Pat, I mean, college game day, Monday Night Raw, the list goes on. You know, I think that is beneficial if the person has the energy and the time to be everywhere. You know, even with Dave, We thought it was a great fun opportunity with big noon kickoff and the embrace he got from the Fox team, both in front of the camera and behind the camera was fantastic. And the fans seem to enjoy it, especially the Michigan ones, I think, liked it better than the others.

17:30So I think when you can put the right portfolio mix and it's really on a case by case, but trying to find that mix of exposure. And if there is that connective tissue with the live game, plus whatever this other thing you do is. All right. The second part of that question deals with somebody who's not a bona fide star. Let's say somebody that has achieved some sort of bit of fame on TikTok, has a million TikTok followers and comes to you. and again, I know it's nuanced, but we're talking like at a 50 ,000 foot level and saying like, what should my road forward be right now? I'm sort of, I'm popular on certain social channels, but I want to expand that.

18:14Actually, I don't even want to expand. I just want to make money. I want to move forward in that way. What would your advice be to that type of person? But authenticity, and I know we all use that word and it's so frustrating, but when you see some of these creators who really cut through. I mean, not to harp on Dave. Dave's authenticity and his care for the audience and his fan base and the stoolies and the big cat and all the talent. I mean, he won't compromise it in any way. That authenticity rules the day. So in that case, our job is to protect that and sort of guide that. If somebody was just completely native in what the scenario you described, look, if they had an authentic passion, One of the agents on my team works with a young creator named Kylan Darnell.

19:04It was the Alabama sorority girl on TikTok and Instagram. Super great following, had a passion for broadcasting, a passion for the SEC. And he was able to get her a couple opportunities with the SEC Network on their SEC Nation show where she contributed a couple of times. And in that instance, and it wasn't, hey, TV is my North Star, or not to say it was or wasn't. And it was just, I'm really passionate and authentic about football, the Southeastern Conference. I'm studying broadcast journalism at the University of Alabama. What could make sense? And taking a couple of steps toward that. I have another sort of 50 ,000 foot question for you.

19:47And I stuttered because I'm trying to figure out how to ask this. Because right now we're seeing a big trend in media where you have Paramount buying Warner Brothers Discovery. You have ESPN is contracting with McAfee and giving him like three hours. And in some respects, those windows on linear television channels are becoming really tough to get. They're almost tough to get than they used to be. You just referenced the Alabama social media person. So there's also more outlets out there. If I were just to ask you, describe the market right now for on-air talent, how would you answer that question?

20:35And I'm leaving that purposely open-ended. I'm not talking about TV versus social versus streaming, just in general. So, you know, we already covered authenticity, so we take that out of it. when even looking in this dab on the sports media side like things that can go on platforms and have a place of purpose right so if it's games you need play by play and you need analysts so i'd say those continue to be bought and you know and hired in various shapes and sizes obviously at the top of the top it you know those are some of the highest salaries that are reported on or in the industry. And then there's a great ton, a lot of, a ton of work for others to have in it.

21:22As it relates to talk personalities, there's, you know, referencing consolidation, but at the same time, there's more opportunity for people to, and it sounds easy when we say launch your own thing, but you need a following, you need an audience, you know, but there's at least a chance, or if you were established or if you are established talent, and maybe you were not continuing your path at one of the, you know, an ESPN or Fox and, you know, the conversation is like, well, if I'm leaving ESPN, can I go to Fox or NBC or CBS? And if those opportunities aren't there, what do I do? There's at least sort of another path that, you know, with the right personality, the right situation, you know, the right ambition and patience that you could pursue some type of show format and go direct to your audience or an audience.

22:14look at the varsity the varsity podcast you know what 20 years ago if you wanted to do this show what would we have had to do you and i me as your agent and you as the talent they're like all right who's who's going to produce this with us who's going to be our prospective partner where does it fit in a programming grid because right we lived in a linear world where it had to fit within a grid and then who's going to want a sports media show and you know answer all these questions that then they can sell it, monetize it versus lo and behold, you have a great following, a great show. You rolled out the written word first, then you rolled out the audio and spoken word, and then you complemented it with the video and the visual and you built a very successful business as a creator in your own right.

22:57Oh my God. I need you as I need an agent. I don't have an agent. I need you to talk to John. I got to put you in touch with John Kelly of Puck right now. That's it. We have to advocate for you. I can tell you what's so interesting about, you know, you bring up the varsity. I'm sitting in my home in Washington, D.C. You're from the DMV, but you happen to be in Indianapolis right now. And so 10 years ago, could we have had this conversation over video in two different areas? It's become a lot easier and a lot less expensive for people to come into a TV show 10 years ago, even on the RSNs. You know, you have to have a studio, you have to have the lights, you have to have the whole crew, the camera crew and everything.

23:41And it's become a lot more streamlined for sure. There's no question. I mean, we'd be looking for you. We would plan this week's interview. We'd be looking for a studio of some kind here or there'd be a truck sitting outside the building I'm at right now that I'd either be sitting in or, you know, beaming this to some satellite somewhere versus the ability to like what technology is supposed to do. Smaller, cheaper, faster. you know and that's what it's done so then when you look at the barrier to entry as these creators look at it whether it is a native creator a younger person who has only who's built their fan base on fill in the blank platform or it's existing you know media talent that said hey i really good at doing this on air thing and i have an audience and why shouldn't i speak directly to them but then the ability to to do it you know i think i probably said this in my last conversations I hate how much I'm repeating myself, so I apologize to your listeners and viewers.

24:37A year ago, nobody remembers Gary. You're good. You're good. Okay, that's true. You had way better people since me since then. But even look at some of these established, like Pat, right? Pat, whatever you guys report on, right? He seems to have a successful business at whatever shape and size, or Rich, or Stephen A. Smith. And when you want to hire, whether it's talent, executives, production people, you have the resources to do it. And there seems to be executives or producer people or talent available that you can just hire yourself. And why not? Because if you want to expand your business and you want to expand your output or the quality of what you're making, you have the resources to do it.

25:21So you could always just hire the people you used to work for or that did this for a living and now work for you. And you can do this. Here's the thing about Pat McAfee that I find interesting. If I think about Pat McAfee, I'm not even thinking about maybe it's because it's on in the middle of the afternoon, in the middle of the morning or early afternoon. I'm not thinking about his show. I'm thinking about his the field goals on College Game Day, you know, that that that that he does. I'm even thinking about his star turn as an announcer at WWE events. But I guess you need, like, what begets what?

26:00Do you need those in order to have the three-hour show? Do you need the three-hour show in order to allow those? Are they symbiotic there? Or is that a stupid question? No, there's no stupid question. It's just a different path. I mean, look, the through line with any of these people we've talked about in the small sampling that we've had in this conversation so far is talent, popularity. They're magnets for attention and charisma and entertaining and informative. And so then when you apply that in a variety of ways, you're going to have memorable moments. You're going to have an engaged audience.

26:35And that's – again, all of us say do this, do that. Here's the plan. some of us have nuances and better versions of it but the secret sauce always is can you identify the right talent and that thing that will resonate and then everyone's gonna have a version of that that they like you know so even with rich eisen i mean some people might only watch the clips on instagram or youtube and love the celebrity interviews that he does or might love the nfl content he does or just like to listen on the am dial because it's still available there or as a podcast. I think the biggest thing now is the consumer preference.

27:14You know, even when, you know, John, you often cover, you know, even streaming versus cable and, you know, and, oh, ESPN going over the top or Fox one. And this is coming off of my Kafka lesson with you. And none of it was that dramatic because the audience is, they want to watch ESPN. ESPN just made it available in case you just wanted to buy it as a singular product as opposed to a multi-bundled product. And that was very dramatic at a point. But now in 2026 or 2025 when it launched, it's not that dramatic because if you want to be in the cable bundle, you're going to stay in the bundle. And if you want to have a singular product, then that's easier for you.