Kevin Burkhardt's Art of "Not Showing How Smart You Are"

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1:35Congratulations! You made the varsity, the podcast. My name is John Aranda, and I am Puck's sports correspondent and the host of this pod. And today, Fox's top NFL voice joins a podcast. Kevin Burkhart is an all-around good guy. People in the business really like him, partly because he's paid his dues. He covered high school football and minor league baseball for local New Jersey radio stations at the beginning of his career. But before we get to Kevin, today is Sunday, September 20th, and here's what I'm watching. I've talked on this podcast many times about what YouTube's incentive would be to make its own, say, NFL rights deal, since it already has access to games through YouTube TV's carriage deals with Fox, ESPN, NBC, and CBS.

2:19Well, a friend of the pod, Lightshed's Rich Greenfield, addressed this in a recent note that he sent to clients when he talked about NBC's deal to make Peacock's ad-supported version available to YouTube Premium. Peacock gives YouTube NFL games without a new rights deal, Rich wrote. Well the worst case scenario for the NFL is that Netflix and Amazon follow suit with similar sub-deals that would mitigate all three companies' need to license NFL content in the future. And the answer, Greenfield believes, is that the NFL will cut down the number of packages that it offers. As Rich said, fewer scarcer, more event-sized packages or more global packages are a real answer to the risk of a shrinking bitter pool.

3:05That's certainly food for thought. As for now, let's get right to Kevin Burkhart. The number one NFL voice for Fox Sports. You're at the World Series. You host the studio show at the World Series. But I really want to talk to you about your time as a sideline reporter for the New York Mets. Because just this past week, everybody that listens knows I'm an Orioles fan. Pete Alonzo, home run against the Mets. He did a curtain call at Citi Field in New York as a member of the Baltimore Orioles. I've never seen anything like this. What did you think about that? yeah you know i i have never seen that in my life and especially from you know new yorkers like there's always a fondness from you know your players who perform well there and a love but you know i was telling you john a little bit before we started like i remember as you know daryl strawberry was my favorite player growing up um i love straw um and when he went to the dodgers it was crushing right crushing and always rooted for him but i could never imagine him coming back and, you know, getting curtain calls.

4:13You know, I just think it speaks to how much Pete resonated with Mets fans. I thought it was actually cool. Surprising, but super cool, especially because he had a home run to tie the game off the closer in the ninth inning. But I think it just goes to speak. I think the beauty of Mets fans and, you know, growing up that way is that, you know, there is a bond, you know, kind of like a, he's one of us or she's one of us type of type of bond as a Mets fan community and I think that's what makes it so great I think that's what made my time there so special among with all the great people that I work with it's just there's something about that fan base that you are kind of you know family forever uh and obviously it showed it with that curtain call for a visiting player in a critical moment yeah I'm not sure if uh actually I'm pretty sure they would not have done that had the Mets been in contention, the fans on the ninth inning home run that tied the game.

5:11But it was. It was so unique. It was neat to see. And I don't want to turn this into a Mets podcast, Kevin, but Howie Rose is going to call his final game today. He started with New York Mets radio, I think probably when you were in grade school, 1987 is when he started. he's uh he's uh ending his career well uh this season do you have a howie rose story i mean what what was it like when when you didn't work directly with with howie but when you were with sny working with sny certainly you cross paths a ton of times yeah i mean howie's an all-timer man he's an icon and i think for me so yeah i was either 12 or 13 when he got that job but you know growing up like so i didn't have cable tv growing up right so we listened to mets games on the radio all the time so for me the soundtrack of my summers it was bob murphy it was gary cohen how he rose like that was what every day was in the summer for me and then you know like they would have games on television on the weekends so um excuse me geez um you know like kiner's corner and tim McCarver and Gary Thorne, all those guys, like guys that I wanted to grow up, you know, and be.

6:32So when I got the job at SMY to work with the Mets, you know, getting to work with my crew and Gary and Keith and Ron was unbelievable. And then just being around Howie, you know, and having Howie and Gary interact, there's just, there was a level of excellence with them that it made you want to be better at what you did. Like, I know I held my standard high because I was around them and because they were so damn good and they knew everything and studied and remembered everything. And then they're just great guys who are funny as hell. Like, we just had so many laughs of, you know, being in some, you know, random clubhouse or a rainy day or waiting for something to have, you know, baseball.

7:12All you do is stand around and wait, you know. So I think, you know, when I think of Howie, you know, when I think of Gary, like those two to me are, you know, almost, you know, twins together in some ways, but they are the Mets more than any player, more than a, you know, team. And I think that's kind of the beauty of the organization and what Howie's been able to accomplish, man. He is absolutely an icon. Well, I want to get to your career, of course. And I want to talk to you sort of about the art of broadcasting, because one of the things I think that makes you so good is that you make it that when you call a game, it feels effortless.

7:51You know, I think Mike Tirico, Joe Buck, you can go down the list of the people that are really good at calling the games. It's just, you seem to have this knowledge of the players, their numbers, sort of what's happening. The dirty secret, of course, of broadcasting, you have spotters, you have people in your ear that are helping you. but you're able to call in real time what's going on. How do you – do you, like, cram weekly? So today you have the Commanders versus the Cowboys. Have you been, like, just studying the Commanders rosters and the Cowboys rosters since Monday? Like, take me through your work week leading up to today's game.

8:34Yeah, you know, I mean, I always – you know, when I talk to, you know college kids or younger people i always equate it to taking a midterm test so the game is the midterm and it's always like okay when you were in school when you studied your tail off for a midterm even if it wasn't always like an a plus you felt pretty good like going into it felt good taking the test and you know thought like oh i get a pretty good grade on this again if it's not an a plus hopefully a decent grade so i think this is no different you every week you know we're not ingrained with these teams so every week we have to become an expert on the two teams.

9:07So it's, you know, look, I've put in 40 hours of work on these two teams and it's, you know, Friday midday by me and I got more to do. So that's just kind of the way it is. Like you, you follow the league year round, you know, the ins and outs, you're talking to people, you watch everything, but I don't, you know, I have a routine and everyone does, you know, all of us, we have our different ways of doing it, but it's all to get to the same place. And that is to be an expert on Sunday. And, you know, it requires just reading everything, you know, on the team. And because, you know, the other part of this too, John, is you're talking to different audiences, right?

9:40You're talking to people who are diehards and know everything about this team for the last 30 years. You're talking to like casual football fans who kind of know like the big stories and know some stuff, but you kind of have to maybe explain things in a more general term sometimes. And then you're talking to people who just kind of flip it on because they're with friends and, you know, maybe they know the big players in the league, but they don't know like some of these people necessarily. So you're, you're couching all that and delivering it to them on Sunday in that way. And, you know, to turn all that prep in the way that I, my philosophy is always this way.

10:14And every time, you know, I've been with, you know, training new people or, you know, trying to help people along, it's always, you're at a bar with a good friend, having a beer and you invite like millions of others to come and sit with you at the bar and have the beer and shoot the breeze and watch the game that is at least how i view it and how i wanted to feel and that's the same whether i'm doing a game whether i'm hosting the pre - or post-game show the mechanics are a little different obviously but i think you want to be like a friend you want to be like a family friend who they feel like they know and they're kind of in on the conversation not like you're talking down to them and they don't know what the hell you're talking about so that's always kind of been my philosophy just paired together with all the work and again like we all have different ways of getting there i have my routine certainly but um and then if you do all that sunday's a heck of a lot of fun like you know we have a great time on sunday tom and i just laughing and you know watching football like how lucky are we we get to sit in these press box and watch these amazing games and talk to everyone at home while they're watching the same thing it's just that part never gets old on me, John.

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11:59We're still talking about all the hilarious behind the scenes details from the office with icons from the show like Rainn Wilson, Greg Daniels, Melora Harden, and so many more. And we can't forget our two conversations with office ladies, super fan, Billy Eilish. Hello. So join us for brand new episodes every Wednesday. And revisit The Office rewatch every Monday. Follow and listen to Office Ladies wherever you get your podcasts. I'm going to pretend that we do the same thing. Kevin Burkhart has done a super role for 130 million people watching. I do a podcast with dozens upon dozens of people listening.

12:38But sometimes when I prepare for these podcasts, I feel like sometimes I can overprepare. and and I if I know too much I'm going to be trying to shoehorn these facts or these stories or something into this conversation instead of actually listening to what to what you're saying and and going off of that can you over prepare for for what you do I think maybe you can't because you need to know who number 51 is on Dallas and who number 47 is on Washington yeah I mean like it's a great question in fact we were just talking about this morning so like from a a player standpoint and like knowing who's on the team players coaches all their backstories all that you can't over prepare because you never know like when something's going to happen again when someone is going to affect the game even even if this person hasn't affected any game for the last two years i think that's kind of the beauty of it so you can't over prepare for that but there is like in today's day and age when there's so much available online and so many people are involved in, you know, digital and social and articles written.

13:41It is hard sometimes just to be like, I've done enough and kind of, you know, get to the game. And I think that kind of crosses over when you're doing the game. I think a hard thing is, you know, you want to show the world how much you prepared. So like, oh my God, I've got this great story. I've got this good nugget. We've got this. And again, like you mentioned that we have a team of many that props us up and makes us look good. We have such a great team of support that kind of ties it all together to make the TV broadcast work. Certainly, it's not just the four of us on air and then five with Dean.

14:09But it is doing the game, not showing how smart you are, and also paying attention to what the hell is in front of you. I think you are, I'll go back to the NFC Championship game last year. We had all these things, you know, thought about, prepared. We thought it was going to be like more of a defensive game, Seattle's defense, this, that. And then a game broke out and it was nothing like we thought it was going to be. So you have to adapt to that. You have to pay attention to what's going on in front of you. Sometimes you come in with all these narratives and all these things and you're right, but then five minutes in, they're all dead.

14:44So how do you react to that and use what you know to convey what's happening and kind of, and even if you're dead wrong, by the way, it's cool. Hey, boy, this is certainly different than we thought, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So I think that's all part of it. Being prepared enough for me, like, you know, Saturday night, I'll do stuff till when I go to bed and then it gets over. I shut it down. I'm done. Like I'm, you know, tired of doing the prep and I'm if I haven't done it by then, I'm not going to be any better. And then I wake up Sunday and, you know, get a workout and get some coffee and go do the game.

15:14So but it's hard in today's day and age because you don't want to be wrong. You don't want to miss something. There's always a fear of like, how did I not see that? Thankfully, we got a lot of people around us who hopefully with all the eyeballs we have on it someone has seen it if it hasn't made so you know what you mentioned earlier is like you're you have hardcore fans you have casual fans and you have non-fans you have like that's what happens when you have more than 20 million people to tuning tuning into each game when i when i hear when i'm watching you i i don't need you to narrate a two-yard run up the middle you know I think a hardcore fan does want you to narrate that.

15:53But I'm more interested in sort of off-field storytelling or story arcs about the game. How do you view that? Do you even think about that? Or do you just sort of sit there and say, I'm going to narrate this game? I think about that stuff all the time. I mean, truth be told, and again, everybody's got a different style, right? My style is different than everybody has distinct things that they do or that they believe in. And I really, I don't care about a two yard gain or who made the tackle on that gain or like for the most part, like some of that stuff is it is what it is. I'm not saying that it is important in the grand scheme of things.

16:30You know, later in the game, someone's having a big game and, you know, he's got 12 tackles. He's kind of been everywhere. Well, then we'll talk about it. But I think, you know, again, in being conversational, if you're just robotic, like call the play, analyze, call the play, analyze. I think it gets kind of boring. and so the idea is to have conversations now look if you start into a conversation and something big happens well the conversation's over and you're probably not getting back to it right unless like it really allows you to circle back and that stuff kind of happens there's been plenty of times i'll bring up something that i really want to get into and tom's like got great stuff and hot on it and they'll be like i'll set it up and then you know tom maybe starts talking a little bit and then the next play is like a bomb and there it goes gone you know like that's just part of it.

17:16But I'm always thinking in terms of, you know, look, the easiest ones to call are the ones where it's nonstop action. I mean, you don't have to, you know, that's just like you're, you're sitting there just calling what's happening in front of you. And there's so much going on. The hard ones to call the ones that are disjointed, or there's not a lot of action, or there's a lot of penalties or things like that. So how do you keep moving it along and keep it interesting? And I think the way to do it is to try to have the conversation and, And yes, of course, you're calling the game. But I don't know.

17:48It's a lot more than nuts and bolts to me. There's a lot of things that drive a broadcast that keep people interested. The thing that really makes a good broadcast booth in sports is chemistry between the play-by-play and the analyst. Most times, that's up to a Brad Zager. It's up to sort of the president of production to say, okay, we want to put these two people together. But as play-by-play, you're sort of the quarterback of the booth. How much are you thinking about the chemistry? Maybe you don't think about chemistry, but how much are you thinking about, okay, this is where I have to pull somebody in versus somebody just kind of stepping in and doing it?

18:39You know, I wouldn't say I'm thinking about chemistry in the middle of a game, but I would say that nonstop portion of my job is always on that. And I, you know, I think the look, I think you the reality is you don't have to be best friends with someone to do a broadcast and do a broadcast well. But I certainly think it helps, you know, if you know them well and if you have a little something and, you know, I've been fortunate. I work with so many great people who I truly am really, really good friends with. And, you know, when I got this job or when I got paired with Tom, I should say, you know, we spent a ton of time together and just hanging out, going to dinner, talking on the phone, FaceTiming, getting to know each other, playing golf.

19:24Like, I don't know any other way to really get to know someone. And other than just time spent together, that is not necessarily like talking about a broadcast. And so like so much of our time was spent just getting to know each other. What makes each other tick? Things like that. Like, of course, I knew Tom from a working perspective. I'd interviewed him and talked to him for production meetings, all that stuff. But, you know, getting to really know the person and then build a trust level. I think that leads into, John, kind of what you're asking. like, you know, he gets to know like what my strengths and weaknesses are and what I like and don't like.

19:57And I get to know what his are and what he likes and what he doesn't like. So hopefully we get to a point in the game where there's something that happens. I know what he's thinking, or I know what he likes, or I know I could ask him this because I know he's hot on it. That stuff comes from time on task being together. And, and, and, and the trust thing is everything, you know, it's, you know, to trust someone and believe like, you know, it's going to work. I think the beauty is like, I think you could kind of sense that on the air if the people are close or if they're not. And hopefully people can sense that about us because, you know, we've gotten really, really close and we're really good friends and we have a great time doing it.

20:34So I think the chemistry key is old school, spending time, going out to dinner, golfing, whatever it is. And I think that helps everything else. You know, I there's put it this way. I think it's pretty hard to magically just show up on Sunday, talk to each other for the first time or whatever it is broadcast you're doing and have it be great without having some kind of a background. You know, even back in the day you're doing, I don't know, whatever sport you're doing, I'm doing college basketball. And maybe it's an analyst I didn't work for before. Well, that week, if it's only a week that I got or if it's a late ad, I'm going to spend as much time that week I can on the phone if we can't see each other in person, just trying to get a little vibe there.

21:13It's a huge part of what we do to make it, you know, entertaining. And I think to make people feel like they're invited in, which is key. Kevin, I'm dying to know who's a better golfer, you or Tom? Who gives the strokes on that? I mean, what do you think, John? I mean, like, you know, if you beat Tom Brady, that's, that's going to be my, my lead in my newsletter on Monday. Like who, who do you think is the better golfer, the seven times Superbowl champion quarterback or the pack weekend golfer broadcaster? Um, honestly, like we, he, he's fun to play with though. We have a great time. Like it's, it's, uh, that's, you know, you could, you could tell a lot about someone on the golf course on like when we played golf early on, like, obviously I know Tom's competitive, but it's like, you know, you really get to know someone and how they behave on a golf course, who they are, that type of thing.

22:02It gives you a little background on them. And we like, we had, uh, we had so much fun early on kind of using that as a backdrop to build our relationship. It was really cool. Yeah. It's funny. About 25 years ago, I was on a boondoggle and I was paired up with Joe Namath. And he beat me, but on one hole, I sank a putt to beat him and he cursed. He was legitimately angry. These people that play professionally that have a different sort of competitive set than I have. I'll never forget that. That's funny. I want to stick with Tom Brady, of course, right? This is now the third season that you've been with Tom Brady.

22:47how has your role changed like what what are you going to be doing differently today with commanders cowboys than you did three days ago or excuse me three years ago when you first started well i think two things number one like we're always you know looking to grow right we're always looking to get better and you know like much like a player and that's that's whoever i was with like in forever how many years i was with them like even when you get really comfortable, you're always like, okay, we could do this a little better. You're always talking through things. So that never changes. But I think what, you know, people probably didn't understand back in the time is when, you know, Tom got this job, you know, a lot of guys, John, like they think about TV, like later in their careers, and they start putting themselves in position to kind of think about it, maybe to get some reps here and there on a bi-week, Super Bowl week, whatever it is, like practicing, you know, coming forward and doing more of the public relations stuff while they're playing.

23:45So a lot of guys are thinking about that. I truly don't think he was at all until like this really kind of came about. And so when we started with Tom, you know, working behind the scenes, it was all of us together as a team kind of building the earliest foundation of like how TV works, you know, let alone broadcasting. You know, I gave him so much credit because it's such a leap. And by the way, there's a reason that not everybody does it because you know there's plenty of people you're like oh that person would be great on tv that person would be great doing games and we're probably right but it's hard and you're out there for three hours unedited and it's it's you know you're taking a leap of faith here so i think we went from just starting from the very beginning you know which was a few years ago when we were working in the off season hard and you know now we've built up we've built something you know we have chemistry we have a playbook from the last couple years and I'm not saying we're a finished product but I'm saying that I feel really good where we are and I feel really um just excited about what's to come you know I I feel like it's been fun this whole process of getting to be where we are as a unit like our whole group um and I think it's been a great ride along the way and he's just been the best teammate man no shock I mean he's he's he treats everyone amazingly certainly has for me from day one.

25:04And, um, I just think it's cool among other things. I think it's really awesome how much he enjoys this. And, you know, I, I don't think there's any way to know. I think he was hoping to enjoy it, but he, you know, we're talking in the off season, one of our many conversations and he's just like, man, I'm so excited to be back. I'm, I'm really enjoying this. And I'm like, I'm so happy to hear that, you know? And I knew that, But to hear him say it and just to see it like him really just enjoying being a broadcaster. I think that's cool, man. For the greatest player to ever do it, I think that's pretty freaking awesome.

25:40Two years ago, you would lead. It seems like you were leading, Tom, into saying like, hey, why don't you talk about X? And it seems to me that during the – I watched your game last Sunday, you know, and toward the end of last year. you're just kind of calling the games and and and it seems like tom brady's jumping in more sort of on his own is is that fair is that something that that that is that a natural progression is that something that you've noticed as well yeah i think so i i think you know look you have to my job is a is a point guard you know whether i'm doing you know and i i think it's the same for me if i'm doing play-by-play or from the studio host it's now look obviously when i'm doing games i to call the plays and it's a little bit different role but i still in the point guard my job is to make sure the analyst is set up for a chance at success it's his show you know when he's good we're good that's the whole idea so you know i think you know again going back to my last answer on us like as a group i think it was just kind of working and starting and kind of getting going you You know, year one, that first game.

26:50And look, John, you could do a million practice games, and we did. But until you actually play the game, it's just – there's nothing like the live reps and live TV, and it's like, holy cow, right? So I think, yeah, I think it's probably fair that they were probably, especially in year one, like I probably asked him more questions, which I don't normally do during, you know, play-by-play as much, maybe less conversational. But that was just part of the building process. Like I just was, you know, we were just reading cues and talking to each other and looking through each other. And I knew what he wanted and I knew his thought process.

27:24But if that's what it took to kind of help get there, then that's fine. Then hopefully I did that and helped him there. You know, and I feel like, yeah, I feel like now I feel like we're really hard, just like totally like simpatico. Like we're the same, you know, we're like brothers. We got the same thoughts. We're laughing at the same jokes. and he's just he's come so amazingly far in such a short term like like i said i just think it's cool that now he's like you know one of us like a tv nerd you know it's it's uh it's pretty cool like you know tom brady the broadcast nerd i mean he won't even be mad at me calling him that because it's just it's just a cool development to see like how he's embraced it and loves it so yeah i think that's a fair question and i think you're probably right i don't know kevin i've never seen a tv nerd on doing fashion week in new york or anything like that you know well well sunday's when he's with us he's a tv nerd is that fair we say that he plays it on tv i want to get back to chemistry because i'm i'm i'm actually really interested in that because like over on cbs you have uh you know anybody that gets paired with iron eagle all of a sudden becomes like the the best of all of all analysts that's out there.

28:39You had Greg Olson, and Greg Olson did really well. And Tom Brady, you've seen the improvement from year one to year two, and then more improvement from year two to year three. Is that a learned behavior? Is that something that you try to develop? What is going on there? I don't even know what that question is, Kevin. It's just something that I've just noticed that not every play-by-play person has, but the ones that have it, it really sticks out. I was going to bust your child and say, John, is there a question in there somewhere? Yeah, I have no idea. Look, I think the idea is, number one, be yourself, right?

29:28Like, and, you know, again, like I, you know, however you want to say it, I'm a point guard. I'm an offensive lineman. Like I want to help my partners succeed. And, you know, it's their show. Like I'm, I may be steering it at times, but it's, it's their show. So, you know, whether it's Tom, cause we're talking a lot about that or like go back in the day, like when A-Rod joined us, right? Like similar situation. Like I knew Alex from baseball interviewing him, but I didn't have a personal relationship with him at all. and when he was coming in and he was still playing when he came in and joined us um gosh i'd been doing this is 14 years that studio and he's i want to say he's done 12 of them i'm probably gonna get the number wrong but he's been there for a lot of it because he came in when he was still playing but i'll never forget like and that was like something we didn't have like super long advance of like obviously tom i had like a whole off season um or really another year you know a year before like he was actually on the air so like alex came in and he was coming in like next week and you know he reached out to me he's like hey can we come in a day or two early there are things i want to go over i'm like absolutely so we came in spent time kind of went over like the very basics of tv like where do you look how do you turn your body like there's stuff that you would never know if you haven't done it um and he was so inquisitive and so i was thinking okay what can i do to kind of make sure like he swims and not sinks here like this is intimidating this is hard like you don't know like you know can you imagine me being thrown into a ninth inning of a major league baseball game and try to like catch a fly ball.