Can the WNBA Survive Its Own Success?

0:00This summer, I'm taking a new approach to styling the smallest spaces in my house with help from Bob's Discount Furniture. Bob's has the small space solutions that America's waited 250 years for, like retro chic bedroom sets with plenty of storage, dinner party-ready dining sets in four fun colors, stylish, spacious, Bobopedic sofas, and feature-packed power recliners that let me kick back in even the smallest rooms. Plus, I know that Bob's styles are backed by thousands of real five-star customer reviews, so I can trust that the furniture that I'm getting is not just affordable, but built to last.

0:34And the best part? Bob's furniture ships fast, so I can enjoy my new styles all summer long. So when you're ready to ditch the furniture you're not excited about for the latest trends in small space styling, stop in or shop online at Bob's Discount Furniture, where America shops for furniture. Imagine you're watching the game at a buddy's house when you get a call that someone tried to break into yours. In a second, everything can change. That's why there's ADT. No one wants to feel unsafe in their own home. ADT's security systems help keep your home safe with 24-7 monitoring. The ADT Plus app keeps you in control the whole time.

1:08ADT's network is built for those game time moments. They have the most company-operated monitoring centers in the industry. Don't leave your home wide open during an emergency. When every second counts, count on ADT. Visit ADT.com or call 1-800-ADT-ASAP.

1:28Congratulations! You made the Varsity, the podcast. My name is Jon Orand and I am Puck's sports correspondent and host of this pod. And today, I wanted to get Amy Costable on the Varsity. The WNBA just had its All-Star game a week ago, and there are a bunch of storylines that I'm following. The league has seen a tremendous amount of growth over the past few years, but that has done little to help Kathy Engelbert's job feel safer. Engelbert is, of course, the commissioner of the WNBA. Anyway, she's overseen a new CBA, its media deals are only a year old, and the business really should be booming.

2:04It is booming. TV ratings are up, attendance is up, sponsorships, you name it. So why is everybody at each other's throats? That's why I wanted to have Annie on this pod. She covers the WNBA for The Athletic, and she has a background in sports business, so I'm really happy to have her here today. But before we get to Annie, today is Sunday, August 2nd, and here's what I'm watching. My focus is on Capitol Hill again. Now, I'm still skeptical that Congress will pass any kind of college sports bill this year. This is Congress, after all. We're a couple of months away from the midterm elections, which will slow things down even further.

2:40August recess starts in a few days. Oh, and the bill doesn't even seem to be all that popular. Sure, it's billed as a bipartisan bill supported by Republican Ted Cruz and Democrat Maria Cantwell. But this is also a bill that came out of committee with nine no votes. That's not the type of bill that usually gets fast-tracked. Anyway, the SEC had its media days a week ago. The Big Ten, they had theirs last week. And in both circumstances, SEC Commissioner Greg Sankey and Big Ten Commissioner Tony Petiti said that there's more work to be done before they can support the bill. And if they don't support it, it won't pass.

3:18I took notice of Tony Petiti's quotes on the bill last week. He said that he's more open to working with other conferences if the Protect College Sports Act stalls. How do we come together to make the necessary changes, he asked. How do we get to a system that is more sustainable and more predictable, he asked. Yes, it looks to me like college administrators should be focused on plan B. Okay, now let's get to Annie Costable. Annie Costable, thank you so much for joining the show. I know you were in Chicago over the weekend for the WNBA All-Star Game. And here's what confuses me about the league that you cover so well, is that everything seems to be going well.

4:04The TV numbers are up. Attendance is up. You know, there's a lot of sponsorship dollars flowing through. People are dying. Investors are dying to get involved with the WNBA. But management and players, everybody's at each other's throats. It seems like everybody should be getting along better than they are, considering sort of where the league is and where it's headed. Is that a fair read of what's going on with the league? Yeah, I think, you know, it's an interesting point you make and one that like many people continue to bring up because to a certain degree, you're right. But I think the quality about the WNBA that gets lost on a lot of people is how player-driven it has been since its inception and how much the players and the coaches, for that matter, too, have really been at the helm of sustaining it.

5:04while many executives kind of like turned their back on it, left for the NBA, obviously owners, sold franchises, et cetera. And so this gave way to a collection of players who at any moment can be very, very inclined to speak on issues that have nothing to do with money or the, to your point, the current success of the league, but more kind of details that maybe people don't see outwardly. And I think that's because there's this kind of sense from players like we have nothing to lose. We've come from X. We're here at Y. We know everything that lies in between. And we don't really care if the public perception is that we're doing well.

6:02If we have an issue with something, we're going to vocalize it. And so I think that's what's really different when compared to other leagues is the amount of kind of confidence and the way players are emboldened to speak up on issues is really incomparable in the WNBA. I think these players are very confident in taking matters public in a way that we don't see in other leagues. And I think that has given way to a lot of pushback on Cathy because, again, the players aren't complaining that they're getting paid more. They're complaining that they're getting harassed online. They're complaining that racial slurs are ending up in their DMs.

6:49They're complaining that the league's infrastructure is lacking when it comes to security. Like these are things that maybe other players in other leagues would keep more private. And as a result, Kathy is, I think, taking a lot of flack. All right. So you identified, you know, the online abuse as being one of the main issues. If you were to sort of triage the issues, what are the three main problems that the problems even the right word? Let's stick with issues. the three main issues that WNBA players have with their current working situation? That's a good question. You know, I'm hesitant to speak exactly to what the players feel like the three main issues are.

7:36I obviously know the online harassment is certainly one of them. So I would say that falls under one that they've vocalized as being an issue. I think, in my opinion, the other two would be the league's reactiveness to two problems that arise. Like right now, obviously, there's a whole lot of talk online about, you know, this wager between Angel Reese and Paige Beckers that the league tweeted and then deleted. And so now there's all this in-between time of people that are going to speculate about whether the league's going to find these players. I haven't actually made any calls on that, and I haven't reported on anything about that.

8:25But this is just the latest example. I can guarantee you that Kathy Engelbert is not sitting in the WNBA social media room sending out that tweet. That's some poor intern. No, she's not. But that's not what we're saying. she's not sending out that tweet, but it's the league's responsibility to react to whoever did. It's the league's responsibility to address these players about a wager that was made publicly that they both commented on publicly. There are rules in the CBA that outline gabbling, wagering, etc. So I'm just using this as an example to emphasize that the league is reactive and not proactive.

9:02And so I think the other issue that I would say the league is kind of navigating is, oh my God, sorry, I'm staying with my friend and she has cats. So you guys may see them just like bounce around. But anyways, the last one I was - Can I interrupt you for one more second? We are a very pet friendly podcast here. I have a dog. And when we interviewed Gary Bettman, his dogs were barking throughout. So the cat will add a little charm to this. No worries. Yeah. Saint is sitting right here out of frame, but he may jump in frame. But I would say the last one is the communication between players and Kathy Engelbert.

9:45And the other thing I want to say about the communication, because I heard this stated, in my opinion, really well, and I'm blanking on whose podcast it was. So apologies, but it was one of my colleagues, you know, national pundits who talk about the W and they said that, you know what is you know actually it was sarah spain's podcast and it was muffet mcgraw who was commenting on she said something along the lines of i'd love to see kathy ingobert's job description because is it actually her job to reach out to every single player when you know they hurt an ankle or something and the reality is you know what it's it's probably not but if you're the commissioner of the league and you have the face of the league in four-time MVP Asia Wilson saying she only talks to you when she's getting awards that's not a good look if you have a player who again is another face of the league and Caitlin Clark saying she has a better relationship or she has a relationship with with Adam Silver but then doesn't really comment on having one with you that's a problem especially when a player like Caitlin is used in this to Adam Silver's point as this political football, you should have a relationship with her.

11:02You should be in communication with her and ensuring that she feels like the league leadership has her back and other players back to the point that they've all made in terms of being on the receiving end of the harassment and the racism. Those players should feel like you have their back. They should not feel like they're on an island. And I think that's what is kind of questionable to me. Because again, it's not about every player per se, because if you think about even a business, right? Not every employee in a business is going to have a direct line of communication to the CEO or to the founder, depending on how big said company is.

11:48But your VPs are, your top executives are so i say asia wilson and caitlin clark fall under that category they're not the vps of your of your company who who is you know so that's those are the three i would say is the reactiveness and then the lack of communication between um kathy and top stars top players in the league yeah it's uh zero surprise to me that for these first couple of questions, Kathy Engelbart has been sprinkled throughout your answers because the big story for me during All-Star Week in Chicago was about Kathy's future and sort of, you know, what will become of it. And again, like, if you step back and take a look, like she oversaw a new CBA.

12:39I don't know how involved she was with the media rights situation, but she oversaw a media writes you know that that on on certain business metrics that people care about the league's doing well but she her grip on the commissionership seems tenuous at best uh my first question to you is do you think that she will be commissioner at the beginning of next season

13:10that's so tough that's so tough because i don't even know if she knows I don't even know if she knows. And the reason I say I don't even know if she knows is because I think they're in an evaluation process right now. And the reason I believe that is just because of the communication that I've had, which obviously I've reported in The Athletic in the sense that, you know, stakeholders' confidence in her is, I think, questionable. And so this stage right now seems like one where she's going to have to turn a page for the better if she'd like to remain commissioner. And so I think her answer, I asked her this question very directly during All-Star Weekend.

13:55And, you know, I think all of our journalism teachers would advise us not to ask yes or no questions, except in situations like this where we need a very clear answer. And she went on a two minute tangent, but never said yes or no, whether she expects to be the commissioner at the start of the 2027 season. season. And I think that's very telling, you know, and I think it's telling that Adam, when asked about her future, has consistently said, you know, we're going to be having those discussions. So the sentiment I'm hearing in all of these answers is that there's uncertainty as to whether or not she's going to be commissioner.

14:38But what I know, again, based on the conversations that I've had is with stakeholders is if she is going to remain commissioner of the WNBA, things need to change. And again, it starts with some of the things that we kind of highlighted in the previous answer. So, and I just want to go through those changes. Is it because it's more than just improving relationships with the players, I would think, right? Or is that really the the main thread here for how Kathy can keep her job? I think it's also improved relationships with the stakeholders from the sense of owners and also a better breakdown of or more separation between the NBA and the WNBA from a leadership standpoint.

15:31And that's where I kind of questioned whether or not Kathy will be the commissioner long-term or for, because she's already been commissioner for seven years. So whether it's she finishes out this year and has one more or, you know, remains on for another chunk of time, I think that's where I question if that's possible, just because of the dynamic that seems to exist between her and Adam in terms of the separation of power. And when we see Adam step in in different moments, it puts Kathy's kind of status into question as far as how much power, how much control she really has over the success of the league.

16:18And obviously you mentioned the media rights deal, but that was negotiated in partnership, collectively with the NBA's media rights deal. So that's a prime example of there being this lack of separation between NBA and WNBA business. And some would argue that maybe that isn't good for the WNBA to have separation from the NBA. But if you look at the ownership structure as it currently stands, it's not conducive to the long-term success of the WNBA, in my opinion. And that is another area where Kathy, I think her leadership has come into question from certain stakeholders is that 16 % stake sale.

17:08And a lot of people want to celebrate that and say how vital it was that the WNBA go out and raise that$75 million capital raise that they did in 2022. But there are others who have serious questions about whether or not that was a smart long-term business plan, because now you have 16 % of the league that belongs to an outside group. And there are questions about whether or not that money could have been raised internally. And so I think there's, there's, yeah, there's questions about some of her business dealings. Well, while again, she's been at the helm of this, of the league through this hyper growth, she's certainly not batting a hundred, you know, or like, so it's, there are business questions too.

17:56It's not just communication. I encourage all of our listeners to go to theathletic.com and read Annie's reports on this, especially from Chicago, which is why I really wanted to get you on this pod here. You talk to, you say that you talk to all these stakeholders about, you know, which I'm assuming is sponsors and media and people that are sort of attached to the WNBA. Where does Kathy have support? At what area of those stakeholders? I think she has support in all areas. It's just not 100 % support in all areas. Like there are players who support her. Nekka Ogumike's relationship, at least publicly, she's been supportive of her since the CBA got done.

18:50And I think that, again, highlights a marginal shift in her relationship with players. I think there are a lot of owners who would speak to the success that this league has accomplished under Cathy's leadership. I think sponsors as well. So I don't think that it's a matter of one area she's winning in and another she's not. It's a separation within each group, specifically owners and players, I would say. So I don't think you can separate it that way of, oh, she's winning in this category and she's not in others. There's varying degrees of kind of disconnect within each bucket, specifically owners and players.

19:36Yeah, the thing that I'm so fascinated by, you brought up the Paige Beckers, Angel Reese bet, you know, that got the WNBA. I, I, at every point, like Kathy can't outrun these bad news headlines, you know, that from, and, and, and at some point that momentum, just like it overtakes you. So even if you do have assets or even if you do have support in certain areas, there is just a, like, there's just a negative, like, I hate to say this as a reporter, but it's like negative vibes that sort of keep coming out that that's really hard to outrun it seems yeah and you know I think a large part of this is because the WNBA has existed in this bubble that and I've said this a lot on our podcast over at The Athletic but the WNBA has existed for decades for its the greater part of of the first three decades of its existence in this bubble that has largely been you know protected from mainstream criticism mainstream headlines mainstream media i mean that all deserves analyzing right i mean we everyone's jumping in now but you could really beg the question of where has media been for the first three decades of the wmba why hasn't mainstream media covered the WNBA like it is right now.

21:10We don't need to get into that side conversation unless you want to. But I would say the bubble's been popped and the league didn't have the infrastructure in place to handle all these little fires that are popping up. And so that's where the reaction is coming from. That's where the reactive quality is coming from is as these things are arising, they are reacting to them. And so the W is mainstream now. And with that status comes criticism. And I think criticism to a lot of the counterculture qualities that have defined the WNBA, right? If you just think about women in sports, that is inherently a political statement because women weren't allowed, like Title IX exists for a reason.

22:05There was actually something that had to be established to give women equal opportunities in sports. So naturally, the existence of women playing professional sports makes it political. Well, if you kind of dive deeper into that, that is one of the reasons why the WNBA has existed again, like I said, in this counterculture bubble where people who maybe haven't felt accepted in the mainstream sports landscape have found acceptance here. And so now that the W is going mainstream, we're seeing these two kind of qualities but heads. And it's the WNBA, I think, leadership, maybe not Kathy, but the league has to be prepared to kind of answer all of these, again, fires that that are popping up as a result, in my opinion.

23:04So I don't know if that answers your question. I feel like I kind of just went a little off script. But but yeah, I think that's part of the reason why all these fires are popping up. I mean, even you think about what's going on in Seattle, what just happened in Seattle with the co-owner getting fined and or the team getting fined in the corner being suspended five games. Like there's all these little things that are happening as a result of a league that was once very niche now going mainstream. And it's like two storms kind of coming together at the same time. And yeah, it's creating a lot of tension.

23:48Squarespace is not only the best place to build your website, but to discover new domains to something like that. Like topfootballcamp.com for your top football camp. Whisperingbloom.com for your silent retreat. Or whisperingboom.com for your shouting retreat. Maybe velvetchords.com for your music studio. Or existentialglitter.com for your artist studio. With a website from Squarespace, you can build your brand and your business all at squarespace.com. Get your domain before they're gone with offer code MAKETREAL for 10 % off your domain or website. Hey, it's Jen Hatmaker. Here's what I've learned in midlife.

24:21Joy isn't the reward you earn after all the work is done. Joy is the work. That's what this new series on For the Love is all about. The sacred yes. It's choosing delight, rest, and pleasure on purpose. Because saying yes to yourself, that's the thing that finally lets you fill your table with everybody else. Come find your sacred yes with me. Follow and listen to For the Love wherever you get your podcasts. And you referenced this earlier, too, when you talked about Caitlin Clark as being sort of a pawn. I'm not sure what the – I forget what word you used to describe it, but she's in the middle of these culture wars right there.

25:05And what happened in Seattle was her teammate, Sophie Cunningham, getting also in the middle of these culture wars, which has happened. It's happened with the NFL. It's used at more mainstream sports. that that's that's a part of being uh in those sports it's almost new to the wnba and and and right to me almost seems like growing pains for the leagues about how to for the league about how to deal with it yeah no i agree with that 100 again like to use the example that just happened in seattle last night sophie cunningham obviously has taken a stance and when you do that you have to answer to it.

25:47You don't get to just say an opinion as a professional athlete, at least, and not then be questioned about it publicly by media. Right. So yesterday there is, and forgive me because I I'm not in Seattle. So I'm not going to talk about what allegedly happened. I'm just going to explain, you know, what we know to be true right now. And that's that, you know, there was an interaction between a Seattle Storm co-owner and fans that were there in support of Sophie Cunningham. And the co-owner has now been suspended five games. But what was interesting to me about it from kind of a media landscape and from an Indiana fever landscape is Sophie Cunningham, to my knowledge, was not made available in Seattle.

26:36She did not speak to the media in Seattle. The other thing that I think is noteworthy is that when Stephanie White, Indiana Fever's coach, was asked about it postgame, was asked about, you know, the fans that were there in support of Sophie Cunningham, when she that was brought up postgame, the Indiana Fever PR stepped in to answer the question for Stephanie and read a statement from the Indiana Fever. And then the room was advised to ask basketball questions. This is a prime example of where the WNBA, and it's not, in this case, it was the Indiana Fever. At the beginning of the year, it was the Dallas Wings who a PR person stepped in to answer a question for AZ FUD.

27:25This is where the league is getting in its own way because while, and I said this then when it happened with AZFUD at the beginning of the year in Dallas PR, and I'll say it again, Indiana Fever PR does a great job. I have had no problems working with them. I appreciate and value the work that they do. Same goes for the Dallas Wings. But the problem is that in this specific instance, in my opinion, a mistake was made because Stephanie White's an adult. She should be answering that question. She's capable of answering that question. Sophie Cunningham is an adult who shared an opinion and is now going to have to answer for that opinion when it gets brought up by the media.

28:15This is what happens with mainstream sports. And I think to your point, that's where the kind of like lack of preparation is. And maybe there's people who think they're doing the right thing or think they're putting out a fire, but they're really overemphasizing it. And so that's where these growing pains are coming in. And that to me was like a prime example because why can't you let Stephanie White answer that question? Why can't Sophie Cunningham be made available to address a topic that she's already addressed publicly? She's signaled she's comfortable talking about this because she's brought it up herself like so what do you mean now she now she can't answer these questions that's not how it works and so i think that's one growing pain that the league really has to get in front of like there's got to be some some pr training in the off season yeah and you know what though that that's such a great point that you just brought up because you know what i find to be interesting is that yeah they're they're grown adults who you say should answer the questions or they could just say i'm not going to go there i'm not answering it and they can say that right and right and that happens that happens all the time is a comment right right exactly like you know when az fudd wasn't uh wasn't answering questions earlier on or when the indiana fever um uh banned a uh a sub stacker from you know from from uh getting a press credential earlier earlier in the season but there didn't seem to be a ton of pushback from uh from like wnba fans for for that to happen which is sort of it's almost like within the bubble it's like you're going more mainstream you have to accept that you're going to get asked different questions that probably have nothing nothing to do with the game sometimes that happens in baseball locker rooms basketball locker rooms football locker rooms you know name your main mainstream uh uh sport as well so i i think that you really have hit on something that really caught me off guard because I, again, I'm coming from the business side of things and I'm just seeing this massive growth of a league that's associated with the NBA.

30:29And then I just see certain decisions that are made that just make it look JV almost. Yeah. And I think, again, like that's where some of these JV problems arise is the league is, again, when I say the league, I am talking about teams, you know, in this case, the Indiana fever earlier in the season. Yeah, but I'll say if the Indiana Pacers did that, what do you think Adam Silver's response would have been to the Indiana Pacers? So I think you can talk about the league, right? Or no? Right, right. So I just want to make sure like listeners understand I'm kind of like lumped, but thank you for making that distinction because you're right.

31:10So I think the league has to, again, whether it's PR training or whether it's Kathy making direct calls that maybe we never hear about, but then we see changes happen. The league cannot keep getting in its own way in this way. And because to your point, it makes the league look really soft. It makes the league look really unprepared and that's gonna prevent it from continuing to grow continuing on on this upward trajectory it's the lack of kind of overall professionalism overall kind of varsity status to your point because like i i just i'll never get over that of of a pr person interjecting for an adult.

32:07Like, let them answer the question. This isn't high school. These aren't children. They're very capable of answering these questions. And also, you're a longtime reporter. You've been a reporter for a while. What's your reaction when somebody says, you can't ask about this? That's all you want to ask about. Maybe I won't ask in this forum, but now it's going to become a storyline well for sure and it also is just because i you don't even just get this from pr people and again i want to emphasize i have never been advised by any franchise in recent years you can't ask about this and so jackie um fever pr amazing job she has consistently done an amazing job.