Hans Schroeder’s NFL Media Huddle

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1:05Congratulations. You made the varsity. The podcast. My name is John Aranda. And I am Puck's sports correspondent and the host of this pod. And today I have a treat for you. You're going to hear from Hans Schroeder. He's the NFL's top media executive. Who's been at the center of just about every media deal. you can think of with the league. Hans and I spoke at our In the Arena event last month, and I wanted to share this with you. During our onstage conversation, we touched on everything from when the NFL is going to open up its next round of media rights to the NFL's plan for adding more international games.

1:41So I think this is an interview you're really going to get a lot out of. But before you get to Hans, today is Sunday, November 9th, and here's what I'm watching. I got my hands on some really interesting viewership numbers that pertain to Disney's YouTube fight, which is still going on as I tape this pod. I've been especially interested to see how ESPN's viewership is being affected by going dark on a distributor with about 8 million subscribers. And I've been really surprised to note that ESPN and ABC have held their own for the most part. For instance, last Saturday, ABC's coverage of the Georgia-Florida game had the biggest college football audience of the weekend.

2:25And while ABC's primetime ratings were pretty soft, it did go up against a thrilling World Series Game 7. And I do mean thrilling. Okay, before I go on, it's really important to note that these are numbers from just one week. One week's worth of data means absolutely nothing in the grand scheme of things. but it does present some trends that I'm going to be following closely. So pay attention to these. One of those trends points to ESPN's pregame show, College Game Day, as being one of the shows most affected by this dispute. And it's not just because College Game Day posted the smallest audience of the season on Saturday, which it did.

3:09And it's not because Fox's pregame show, Big Noon Kickoff had its second biggest audience. The trend that I'm watching deals with YouTube viewers and Fox's viewership within YouTube homes was, get this, three times bigger than usual. Okay, I have a couple of stats I'm going to throw at you. This season, Big Noon Kickoff was averaging 167 ,000 viewers in YouTube TV homes. Last weekend, that number jumped to 491 ,000 in YouTube TV homes from 167 to 491. That's a really big jump. And I was really surprised by that at first. I mean, why is ESPN holding its own with live games, but seeing softness in what is probably ESPN's most enduring and endearing studio show?

3:59My theory is that a YouTube subscriber who's interested in watching, say, Tennessee, Oklahoma, is not all of a sudden going to be interested in watching the seventh game of the World Series. or a YouTube subscriber that wanted to see Florida and Georgia, I'm not so sure they're going to be interested in the Big 12 game that was on Fox or the Big 10 game that was on CBS. But if you're used to watching a college football pregame show, it's logical that you just gravitate to something similar. College game day and big noon kickoff speak to exactly the same audience. But on further review, when I thought about this, it really does make sense to me that this is where you would see the biggest impact.

4:39Okay, now let's get to the NFL's Hans Schroeder. You're almost an NFL lifer, right? 24 years yesterday was my 24th anniversary. Really? That started October 15th, 2001. So certainly an interesting time. Did Y.A. Tittle win that Super Bowl? Let's see. Who was a one? That was the Pats' first Super Bowl in New Orleans. That was a year disrupted with 9-11 when we had to move the Super Bowl back a week and work through New Orleans. And it was Brady's first Super Bowl. So, yeah, very memorable. Of course, Brian Rollap used to be at the NFL you worked with very closely. He took off to the PGA Tour. A lot of other responsibilities fell to you.

5:25How has your job changed? Yeah, as I told Brian, I think he's on the back nine now somewhere, just like relaxing a little bit. Literally, that's good. No, but it was bittersweet. He's figuring out, by the way, at the PGA Tour, he doesn't quite have the leverage that you have. Yeah, well, I'm sure he's going to be incredible. It was very bittersweet. Brian and I worked together for probably 20 years and can't think more highly of somebody. We were just together last weekend at his son Ben's football game as a quarterback at a school near us in Connecticut. So I'm super excited for him. He will no doubt do incredible things for the PGA Tour.

5:59But it's also fun. It's fun to be around a while, had a lot of experiences at the NFL, but certainly to get more and have the opportunity to do more is fun. And I think that's not only for me. You know, they took Brian's role and looked at it in the breath and saw a few of us and said, look, there's more opportunity, more growth for Hans, for Rini Anderson, for Christine Dorfler. And so I think rather than sort of have the chief business and media officer sort of put media in one place, Rini in her world, Christine got some of the operations in L.A. So we're three months in or so and it's going well.

6:35So what are you working on now that maybe you weren't earlier? Yeah. So I think a few areas have been pulled back, I think. You know, and it's a little bit of back to the future. It's areas that previously in my career certainly worked on. But I think as we think about a few things, one is just the increasing nature of media being one where the learnings and the evolutions away from linear to digital or otherwise are applicable to any market in any place. There's another aspect that we're starting, and we saw this with Netflix. We've seen this now with YouTube. But as partners look for global rights for the first true time of looking for that intersection of not only having a rights holder and being a rights holder in one country, but around the world, that global aspect is bringing us together in a different way.

7:25And then lastly, as we look out, and I'm sure we'll get to it at some point, but Roger's comments from a few weeks ago, like at some point we'll be doing these and entering these next phase of discussions and negotiations with our partners. You know, the intersection of that and how we deploy our rights and having been at the center of that, overseeing the deal side domestically, the schedule creation, but now really pulling in all the licensing we do across media beyond just the live games is for Sunday Ticket, our social, digital, new emerging platforms, and then the global piece as well. So we have one central group thinking about how and where we deploy our rights across all media, all countries, everywhere, I think is a real opportunity for us just to be more efficient going forward and better align with some of those with the work we need to do to make sure we have the best plan when we get to that next stage on what those future partnerships look like.

8:18All right. So you brought up the media rights. Rights go through 2032, I believe. There's an out in 2029. The commissioner has said that he's willing to go early. The media executives that I talk to say they want to go early. Like, why aren't we talking tomorrow? Is there a possibility of that? Well, you know, it's interesting you say that. Like, we are always talking to our partners. I mean, there's a reason we're talking to our partners, and all of a sudden we're playing a Peacock game on Friday night in Brazil last year. There's a reason you fast-forwarded it this year, and we expanded the YouTube partnership to play in Brazil this year on Friday night.

8:53Fox has a Week 16 doubleheader on Saturday with some great traditional football matchups. All things which we're always having conversations with our partners. And I think, to be clear, and maybe a little bit more precise with the commissioner's comments, because I think some of that got maybe misconstrued. I think he said it could be as early as next year. I don't think he gave a definitive that it'll happen. But I think from our perspective, we're going to be ready, and we're always ready whenever our partners want to talk. We're happy to talk to them and engage, and we want to listen. We're always smarter to hear what our partners and what nonpartners.

9:29There's a lot of interest in NFL. We're incredibly fortunate about the place and the position and the interest in our content. And so for us, I think, and we've seen this over previous cycles, the more we can listen, the more we can be smarter about the landscape, about the potential partners, about those opportunities, I think is going to let us have those conversations at the appropriate time in the best way. And look, looking back, I've been here long enough to do our deal with DirecTV in 2002. Like in 2004, we did the deals a little bit early. We did some deals really early in 2009, I think, where we did some extensions.

10:05We did the deals then in 2011, 2011 again. And those were getting a little bit closer. And then we did the deals in 2021, sort of a year or two out. So we have this marker out there after 2009, but there's no need to wait for it. And I think we'll be ready when the time comes. Of course, you will see higher rights fees to come out of this, no doubt. But what are you looking to get out of it? What do you want to see from the next round of media rights discussions? This is more of a personal view than an NFL view. I think as we looked out and going through those successive cycles of deals, unlike most of the other properties who all have great businesses and great models, with the uniqueness of our model being concentrated on Sunday and so dependent on reach and size and scale distributors of partners that really can deliver those NFL-sized audiences, you really don't see them in many other places.

11:04I think as we looked at, there was a time probably in 2008 or so where NFL Network had limited distribution, and we were trying to grow it. We had just come out of that Giants-Pats simulcast debacle and great game, but debacle as far as some tension that led to us with certain distributors. And so we weren't fully distributed. And so we decided to do this product on dot com, NFL dot com that looked in and out of NFL Network games. And of all things, we had a Packers Cowboys game on NFL Network. Hard to believe today. But back in the day, we had that. And we're literally streaming the game just for bits and pieces of the game.

11:39And the CEO of one of the CDNs at the time called me and said, you're about to break my infrastructure. We just can't hold it. And it It was like 400 ,000 concurrent streams. So, you know, for a while there, it was always, and that led to a little bit of the strategy. How do we put more on mobile? How do we then do simulcasts on Thursday night with Amazon? But throughout that was building that relationship, building those technology foundational elements that could handle the size and scale to get to NFL games. But still, there was always that question of the unique aspect, and broadcast has been so intertwined.

12:12It's still such a dominant reach platform. But as you looked at, are you going to be able to reach that as some of these digital platforms emerge and grow? They're going to be great. They're going to have really viable models. But are they going to provide the same reach? And I think the thing that I'm most excited about as we sit here today and think about that flexibility and opportunity we have is you look at sort of a year to year, you know, Peacock to NBC match up on a wild card. It did a similar audience. You know, two years ago, we did 28 million viewers on Christmas Day. hey, Netflix did 25 last year.

12:44It's not there, but it's not that far off. So thinking about how the popularity of the game, the accessibility of the game is so dependent and predicated on the availability and being so widely available. To me, what I love as we look out is all these platforms and all the partners that we're likely to be talking to, it feels like whereas at one point, maybe reach was gonna be a question. I think our model that is so predicated on reach is gonna be very sustainable, almost with whatever partner we choose, which to me, I think that's a great thing for us. I think it's a great thing for sports overall.

13:17It's a great thing for fans to have that type of access and availability. So that leads into my next question, which is I've always looked at the NFL media packages. They seem very similar to me to the ones that were first created back in the early 1970s. You have an AFC package, an NFC package, a primetime package or two. With the Netflix, with the streaming, and not just Netflix, Peacock and Paramount Plus and ESPN app, is there a new way to imagine the types of packages and how you sell them? Look, absolutely. And I think one of the things that got lost in the last cycle of deals, it's not sexy, it's not what grabs people's headlines.

14:04But prior to the deals we did in 2021, every NFL game, the minute the season ends, if you think about our schedule, right, there are six games against your division. You know who you're playing. There's four games against the division, your own conference. You know you're playing those. There's four games against the division in another conference. And then there's three games that are standings based. Yeah, how teams finished in another division that you'll play. So if you won your division, you play the teams that won the other division. Like the whole schedule is determined the day the season ends, right?

14:39Previously, every game was predetermined to start in either the CBS or Fox package. You know, if you were an away team from the AFC conference, you were in CBS. If you were an away team in the Fox conference, you were on the NFC package, you were in Fox. And what we got in that deal is, and then we could pull certain games back and put on Sunday or Monday or whatever. the way it works now is every game, all 272 regular season games are free agents. They can go anywhere. We can put, like we did for the first time, I think last year in like 30 years, put Philly-Dallas back on CBS. And so as we've expanded now playing more Thursdays, more early games, more international games in general, late season Saturdays, that flexibility to take every one of those 272 games and put it in its right home has been huge for us.

15:32So, that's a little bit different than what games and how many at certain times and otherwise. But the flexibility it's enabled, which you've seen the growth in viewership since we've done these new deals, nobody really talks about that. That's a huge, huge driver for us in flexibility. So, as we look out, look, I think the windows generally feel right. But the platform flexibility, Like the whole idea of how we regionalize and distribute on Sunday afternoon, largely tied to how broadcast and broadcast infrastructure works. As we look out, does that stay? Does it evolve with a more digital partner?

16:06A digital partner could think about Sunday afternoon a lot different. So I think there's going to be a lot of different interests and opportunities for us. I think broadcast is always going to be really critical for us because it's still so wide reaching. but I think there's going to be ways in which the platforms and the partners and the interest we have give us different options to consider. And so before we're in that mix, it's hard to say where we end up, but I do think the things we're thinking about are a lot of different configurations that don't exactly have to map just to what it looks like today.

16:35Hey, it's John O 'Ran back in the studio. Probably doesn't surprise anybody that I opened this interview with a bunch of questions about media rights and when it's going to open up. We're going to take a quick break here. And And when we come back, I'm going to ask Hans about the streamers. I think you're going to like this.

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18:01What have you learned from Netflix and from Thursday Night Football and YouTube this year as well. What's different about games on those platforms than on regular television? Well, the best part is there's nothing from a fan's perspective. Although when you're there and you're watching, it feels like a first class NFL game. Watch what Amazon does when they pull. I was just listening to a podcast the other day and they're talking about pulling into Cincinnati, some of the Cincinnati beat writers. And they're like, when Amazon comes to town for it's different than anybody else. It's like Super Bowl production level of trucks and equipment.

18:35And you see that on screen. You see that with the YouTube game, which NBC produced for YouTube and did a great job. You saw that with Netflix, which CBS produced it. So the first and foremost, if you're an NFL fan, I think the best part is it feels like a great NFL game. But the scale they're able to bring, and I think you're starting to see them tap into the innovation and the opportunity to bring an enhanced viewing experience. what they're doing with Prime Vision on Thursday night with some of the AI layered enhancements that auto detect who's going to blitz or who may be the open receiver.

19:10Maybe that's for everybody. Maybe it's for a part of the audience. But they're capturing that digital first platform in a way. I think you'll see them do more on the advertising side. They're just scratching the surface of making sure the overall viewing experience is as deep and compelling as it can be. And part of that's making sure you get an ad. And so maybe somebody in the Midwest that's in their 20s that had a baby recently is seeing a minivan ad versus somebody that's seeing 50 in the Northeast is seeing an SUV versus somebody on the West Coast or in the Midwest wants a pickup truck. Those type targeting things in a way that it's going to be more contextual and more relevant to you.

19:46And then areas to introduce things like commerce. That's a whole other way in which, as you think about our audience, there's opportunities to give more opportunities to those fans and viewers to do things that hopefully are relevant to them, but also another way for our partners to add value through our relationships. So, look, those partners have all been fantastic. Their ability to dive in, scale up, deliver flawless executions for our games at like TV size audience has been incredible. And we have great partners across our partner base. And those three are just the most recent. A story that's been going around is that you open up the deals early and you create a new package with the international rights.

20:34Do you have enough games to do that currently? I think that's an idea that's been floated around. And it makes sense because if you look at our calendar, there's not another natural window, A, to play games. You know, we can't play, you know, on Fridays and Saturdays by the Sports Broadcasting Act from the second week in September through the second week in December. So I'd argue there's not a lot of open dates or windows that make sense for us to play in. And playing in international markets, which we want to continue and becoming more of a global sport is critically important to us. A lot of those time slots, particularly in Europe, fall into those early windows.

21:15So it makes a lot of sense. What those games also do that people don't talk about as much is they get into other parts of Asia and otherwise that typically don't get a game in a great viewing hour. So they actually become primetime games in Asia, which we like and are excited for what that can mean for growth opportunities in those places. So it's the natural place to say, hey, there's windows there that you're probably going to play in. Are you going to do more of it? You know, the time and place, we're still working through when that might. And if that ever comes to bear, it's certainly an option.

21:45I think there could be a sense to it, but it's too early to say if and when that definitively happens. I mean, it would be tailor-made for a streamer who can go global, right? Exactly. Those would be great windows here and abroad. And look, we've seen some continued viewership in those windows. People are becoming a little bit more familiar with them, which is also we're playing the ability we got when we expanded the season to have all teams participate in our international games. I think it's seen the quality of those matchups continue to grow too, which I think is great for the fans in those countries, but also seeing that in the viewership as well.

22:21And you're seeing teams that actually want to play now as opposed to a couple of years ago. We see teams, I think, generally do want to go. We now have programs, the way the NFL works, clubs have certain marketing rights in their designated marketing areas, usually geographically adjacent and around their home markets. Now they can have international markets that they adopt and a lot of clubs are choosing. They want to go play in those markets as a way to deepen their fandom in those markets. So I think, you know, there's always some bumps to work through, but a lot more excitement to certainly play as the home team.

22:54A lot of excitement by clubs to be the away team. There's a lot of clubs that would love to go back every year as an away team. And in fact, this year was interesting. You know, it was the first time we had the Vikings volunteer and work with us to be the away team on back to back weeks, first in Dublin and then in London. And by all accounts, that was a really good experience for them and competitively probably helped them. They didn't have to go into two tough home markets in Pittsburgh and in Cleveland. And they could actually play those games in London and Dublin with loud crowds, but not necessarily a home crowd.

23:26Hey, it's John O 'Ran in the studio again. We're going to take a quick break. And when we come back, I'm going to ask Hans about probably the biggest deal he's worked on over the past 12 months. And that is having the NFL take a 10 % stake in ESPN.

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