Is the NFL Unstoppable?

23:41It had a TV channel. It was one of the first on streaming, NFL films. They are in the process of selling their media assets to ESPN. To me, they're almost not a media company anymore. Would you agree with that? Yes and no. This is a, that was an interesting tension between Jerry Jones and, and Robert Kraft. Jerry Jones actually wanted to sell NFL Network years ago. Comcast made a bid for it around 08, 09. And, and Jerry's like, great, mission accomplished. We, we floated this thing in what, 03 is when it went up. and Comcast is like, hey, we'd love to buy basically your six games early in the season on Thursdays, which at that point were really were kind of trashed by people as kind of not appointment viewing.

24:27They were, you know, the teams weren't particularly appealing.

24:30Ken Belson:But the other owners, including Robert, were like, whoa, wait, we haven't really developed this. Like, what are we doing selling now? And and in some ways, Jerry was could could have been right because that's sort of when cable peaked was around 2010 in terms of subs. So, but Robert was like, but we're, we're, you know, where are we as a business? And I think he was right in the sense that they built out their programming. They added games, they got better at it, but they waited too long. I think they, they, you know, they, they didn't see the curve. You've had Michael Nathanson and others on your show talk constantly about the decline.

25:07And I think they waited a little too long. They were, they were hoping for a bigger price and they didn't get it. I think it's kind of an interesting, um, solution. Uh, and to answer your question, I don't think, yes, they're not producing in the same way,

25:20Ken Belson:but they certainly are producing content. Um, so there's a, there's a circle of owners who just want to reduce costs. Well, you've just offloaded all that production. Uh, you don't have to hire seasonal, you know, producers and editors, uh, out in LA, and you don't have to worry about the headaches of the on-air talent and all that cost. So let's say we're talking like$100 billion a year, let's say. That's a big number if you're an owner or to anybody. So they've given all that to ESPN, but they still have NFL films. They still own the rights to everything, social media and otherwise. And so they don't need the sort of bricks and mortar part of it.

25:59Ken Belson:But yeah, they're still in charge of it. They're doing more. I mean, you look at the Kansas City Chiefs. they're sort of doing their own content production. Now you're going to see Jerry with his Netflix documentary, Robert on Apple TV. The teams themselves are still spinning out plenty of content. And I don't think the average fan cares where it comes from as long as it's produced. So strictly speaking, they're not a media company, but they still are producing a lot of media. You referenced Jerry's Netflix documentary, Robert Kraft's Apple TV one. What do you think of both of them? Uh, in, in all honesty, I haven't had time to listen to cherries yet.

26:37Ken Belson:I've been working on the book, finishing the book Roberts. I did see, um, I, I, I thought it was, I'm, I'm glad Bill Belichick took the time to sit for it. I thought he did himself no favors whatsoever. He played into the stereotype of Bill as a taciturn sort of angry guy. And, and, uh, it very much felt like a Robert Kraft production, uh, with Brady vouching for him. Um, so I suspect Jerry's is going to be similar that, you know, you hear the main dog, it's crew produced by Kraft Enterprises, whatever the tagline was in Robert's. Um, yeah. And, and, you know, they can't help themselves. These two guys.

27:20That's why you wrote a book on them. It makes them such fascinating characters. I mean, at some point they have to be sort of happy with their status in life, but they keep pushing and to keep getting out there. And the all access documentaries, it's totally fast. They are the two most unique owners probably in all of sports. Yeah.

27:39Ken Belson:And it's interesting. This is something that I didn't appreciate until I started writing the book or the chapters in the book was that they're actually remarkably similar in ways that I had not contemplated. One is they, they both came from sort of humble roots, you know, lower middle class, whatever you want to call it. Both their dads were small businessmen. Um, both never made a fortune. Uh, both had their sons like, you know, grew up close with their sons. Um, and, uh, and, and Robert's dad died, uh, in the seventies. Um, so, uh, you know, they, they both were very much influenced by how their dads were salesmen and, and, uh, worked in the community and so forth.

28:16And both Jerry and Robert we're sort of entrepreneurial from a young age. There's a great scene where Jerry is 23 years old.

28:25Ken Belson:He's just got a business degree from University of Arkansas and he's just smitten with the AFL. And he goes down to Houston and he's in an AFL owner's meeting, just sitting in the lobby in a hotel. And he eventually like befriends Joe Robbie, the new owner, the incoming owner of the Miami Dolphins, and then flies to Miami and helps Joe Robbie move into his office. He's like literally moving a desk up a flight of steps with this. It's like this really enterprising kid. And then he basically tells Joe Robbie, I want to own a team. And Joe Robbie says, well, you know, the San Diego chargers are for sale or soon to be.

28:59Ken Belson:And Jerry organizes a commitment from the central state's pension fund, Jimmy Hoffa's pension fund, the Teamsters union as a letter of credit. And obviously Baron Hilton doesn't sell it to him, but like that's moxie. Right. And Jerry and Robert learns similarly with the Boston Lobsters of the illustrious world team tennis and takes away good lessons. Both of them took away lessons like I want to be in sports. I love sports. I see the value in it. And they both take high risk when the time comes to buy their teams. So they're really fascinating. And yet, you know, when you meet them, they're just completely different people, like socially and so forth.

29:37Ken Belson:And yet they live with each other and in a weird way, complement each other. So they were easily the two, you know, when my publisher said, you got to pick three people. Who are they? Well, it's got to be Jerry and Robert. Those were the two most obvious. And they get along, but where have they butted heads? Oh, yeah. There's been many times. I would say the 2011 labor talks were one. Jerry was really hard driving. He really wanted to rake back money from the players. It was the lockout. Robert is much more conciliatory. We're all getting rich. Come on, guys. Let's figure out a way to just keep getting rich.

30:17Ken Belson:Robert's wife was dying at that point. And really, he left the owner's side of the table because he had a frustration with the histrionics on both sides and the lawyers, right? He just said, what am I doing here? Where are my priorities? He went back to Boston to be with his wife. And his wife was the one who told him to come back. So Jerry was just like, I wouldn't say he was tone deaf, but he didn't see, or at least Robert didn't think he saw the bigger picture. And, you know, you asked earlier about key moments in the NFL as a business. One was 2011. That was the moment where they went from a five-year labor deal to a 10-year labor deal.

30:52Ken Belson:And nobody could give me a straight answer on who proposed it. Both sides took credit for it. but boy, when you get not just five years in labor peace, but 10 years, well, now you can go to the networks with something to sell. And so their media deals, you know, uh, like accordion light grew with that and the numbers went up. They went to 55 billion and now 110. So, um, yeah, that, that I, I don't know whether that was Robert who takes credit for it. There's too many stories. I couldn't get it straight, but that was key. The other was back in the nineties when Jerry was, was cutting his own sponsorship deals.

31:25Ken Belson:Uh, he got Nike instead of Reebok. He got American express instead of visa. And Robert wasn't pleased with that at all. I think he understood Jerry's, um, motivation, but not the way he was doing it. And then most famously, at least in my estimation was in 2017. Uh, they were, uh, Jerry was an ad hoc member of the compensation committee and they were giving Roger Goodell a big pay package. They were negotiating. It was, ended up being$200 million for five years. And Jerry was along the ride and, you know, was going forward with him. He wanted more in bonuses than salary, which he ultimately got.

32:04Ken Belson:But then Roger had the nerve to suspend Ezekiel Elliott. And for something that happened when Ezekiel was in college, which was, that itself was unusual. But in any event, Jerry blew a gasket. And there's this great scene in the book where they're on a conference call and they think they're sort of getting towards the end of the, of the negotiation of the contract. And Jerry says, by the way, I've hired David boys, the famous lawyer, uh, to, to look at suing all of you. And, and all the owners said, one of the owners said, all you heard was click, click, click, click, click. They all just said, like, like, like mob bosses.

32:40Ken Belson:They, they all just said, we're out of here. We're nothing. We're not going to say anything more. That was way beyond. I know the owners were real, the owners on that committee, Arthur Blank, uh, Clark Hunt, they were pissed at Jerry. You know, it's one thing to aim a gun at somebody else. Don't aim it at us. We're all in this together. And that was, I don't think I've seen the owners that pissed off internally in a very long time. But you know what I find to be fascinating about this is that the owners are all pissed off, but they all like have a grudging, like, I don't even know if it's a respect.

33:13They all like him, right? Oh yeah. Yeah.

33:16Ken Belson:Look, I forgot who was Carmen Policy who butted heads with Jerry when he was in charge of the 49ers for years, uh, said, Jerry taught us how to make money, you know, and, and he can charm anybody. Uh, there's a great line from Robert. I, uh, I asked him what he thought of Jerry and he said he could, he could get a dog off a meat truck, you know, uh, uh, it's a funny line, you know, it was like, Jerry just, he's ravenous. He just keeps going, He keeps going, his head's down. But boy, you know, he could get a dog to come off Amitra. He's just such a good salesman and he's relentless and he's charming in his own way.

33:56There was, you know, there was the famous, not famous, maybe for you and I, but the federal trial out in LA last year on the Sunday ticket issue, the antitrust trial.

34:07Ken Belson:And Jerry flew from, I mean, not that we should feel bad for him. I'm sure he flew private, but he flew back from the south of France on vacation to get back to LA to spend a week prepping with lawyers to go, cause he was going to be on the trial, on the stand. And, you know, a lot of owners, number one, wouldn't put their neck out and go on federal, in a federal trial. They wouldn't show their face if they didn't have to, but then he, he showed up like he, he wanted to be in the jury box. I mean, that, that's, that's a pretty brave owner. He believes in his product. He believes in the NFL and he wanted to help the NFL.

34:41So although he's often portrayed as a me first owner, he's very much a league first owner too. Ken, let me take one more quick break. I want to come back and I want to spin all this forward.

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35:27And we're live from the living room as Doug eyes up the match they spread. He's reaching for the Buffalo wing. Perfect. Hang on, what's this? Oh, he's going for a can of Pepsi, too. Incredible. What a finish. Sensational combination. Look at the delight on his face. There's no doubt about it. It just tastes better. Match days deserve Pepsi. Food deserves Pepsi. Grab a pack of Pepsi Zero Sugar for today's match. It's poetry in motion. Okay, the beauty of having journalists on this podcast is that we're by default negative people. So go through some of the red flags that you see that the NFL needs to address in order to continue to grow and continue to be the dominant, not just sporting league, but entertainment vehicle in the United States.

36:25Yeah, there's a lot of places or a lot of elements to that. One, let me just start with NIL. it maybe is a little bit of a not the first thought but but it's or maybe let me just say that i i'm totally shocked that the your first answer on red flags is to talk about nil i'm looking looking forward to this one i say partly because i'm i'm not much of a college football fan but i think the empowerment of players in college the fact that they are free agents essentially every year through the transfer portal and now are being evaluated in dollars

37:03Ken Belson:as well as whatever they do on the field for their talents is creating a very different player. And I can see them coming, a generation of players coming into the NFL saying, oh, you want me to show up to the draft? Pay me. You want me to come to the combine? Pay me. Like you're using my IP for nothing. Oh, you want me to hug the commissioner? The guy who's going to, you know, eat my lunch at the negotiating table? Pay me. Right. So I think that's going to be something that, you know, it's going to take some time. It's also going to create a very different players union when the time comes, right?

37:35There's going to be a - Where is the resistance to that going to come from? From the owners, from the league office, from everyone?

37:41Ken Belson:I think the NFL is going to have to figure out ways to, you're talking about to not pay the players to come to the combine? Or to where that actually becomes an issue. Yeah. Like, yeah, it's just paying me. Right. Yeah. I don't know. Right. I mean, I don't have an official count, but it seems to me they've started to limit the number of players they invite to the first night of the draft. I think it was down to 17 this year. They used to have a green room with more than 30 players. So I think the, I think some of that is the players are getting smarter. Um, they don't just want two first class tickets.

38:13Ken Belson:Um, they want eight first class tickets or they, you know, they want to bring their entourage or whatever. And I don't blame the players. Like you're using their IP. Um, you know, of course, some of them want to be there and hug the commissioner. It's a big night. I get it. But they also like, but pay me, right? And now you're starting to see some top draft picks saying, I don't need to be there. It's certainly being in whatever draft city is doesn't create, doesn't help me in the draft. That's just a TV moment, right? So I think that NIL will reshape the dynamic with the players. I think gambling is a huge issue that is, we're just scratching the surface.

38:48Ken Belson:I noticed the NCAA is going to allow players to bet on games, NFL games. Well, okay, seniors in college know rookies in the NFL. Like, how's that going to work in terms of sharing information? Maybe, just guessing. So I think the integrity of the game is always in question. And I think the way the fans consume football is changing dramatically. You know, fantasy football seemed like a benign device, right? You would watch a meaningless week 17 game because you had the tight end. Well, now you got money on it, right? So I think fans both interest and disgust that the league will potentially escalate.

39:34Ken Belson:And then, you know, there's simple demographics, right? The NFL is like every other league. The birth rate in America is slowing. They're looking overseas for more fans. It's a really long-term play to make money overseas. The chiefs, Mark Donovan, team president, told me this was about less than a year ago. He told me that they made a million and a half euros on sponsorships in Germany the previous year. I guess it would have been 23. And I said, wow, that's fantastic. He said, yeah, but we've spent three million on marketing. So that's the chiefs, right? So you can imagine the Panthers. That's a key.

40:10With a Taylor Swift connection over in Germany, you would think that that would be an easier sell. Yeah. Oh, it's easy in the sense that he got a million and a half in euros and commitments, but it takes money. My point is it's taking, it's going to take a long time to turn that into the black and start profiting from all of this. And so it's a very long play. So I don't think international is the, the immediate fix. They've got to do it, but I don't think it's the immediate fix. And the other is the, the health and safety issues.

40:39Ken Belson:I know we're past this sort of concussion, quote unquote, crisis, but a lot of parents are putting their kids into baseball, into soccer at a younger age, not Pop Warner. And the way the sports works these days, it turns into a 24 seven commitment. And so you don't circle back to football. And so the pipeline issue is potentially a bottleneck. I also think, you know, in money terms, the fans who are the most avid in any sport are ones who have played the sport. I grew up playing Little League baseball. I quote unquote understand or have some basic understanding of how baseball works. Baseball is my sport.

41:20Ken Belson:It has been. For a lot of fans, if it's football, football will be their favorite. But if you don't grow up playing it at six years old, the way your dad might have, well, then you might be just as much a basketball fan or a soccer fan or something else. So, you know, I think fandom is going to change partly because youth sports participation has changed as well. Final question for you, Ken. Thank you for taking the time today. And I saved this one for the end because we're going to get in the weeds as a writer. You've written, this is your second book? Second book, yeah. How did you come up with the idea of the book?

42:00When and how did this become something that you thought that you'd write an actual book about? I had in mind, I actually pitched a book on the NFL, I want to say around 2016. it was built around a story about where the first round picks from the 1990 draft ended up that was amit smith and junior seo and some others and i wrote a big story that ran that year and i thought well there's there's a lot in here and that book fizzled um this book sort of happened by accident uh in the sense that or it approached me if you want to call it that uh i had written a

42:35Ken Belson:story in 2018 about a recording, uh, I, I, two and a half hour recording I obtained of the owners talking to the players at NFL headquarters about Colin Kaepernick and how to end the protesting. This was in the fall of 2017, right after Trump had, um, had attacked the league and, uh, and told the owners to fire the protesting players and so forth. So I had this story, this was 2018, and I was approached to turn that into a 30-minute documentary. And the documentary fell apart. We went through a couple of scripts and it would have been really interesting, but it didn't work out. And I thought, wow, somebody's interested in this meeting.

43:16Ken Belson:And what they were interested in when I was talking to the producers of it was who these characters were, like sort of how we've been talking about Jerry and Robert. And I was like, you know, you could probably use this meeting as a jumping-off point to just talk about how the NFL works. So I pitched that idea as a book and the agent, I think wisely said, it's going to appear to be a Kaepernick book. And I think the Kaepernick story, this is 2022 already has kind of crested. It's five years later, but she said, why don't you just write about the business of the NFL? These are, I watched the NFL and I don't know where any of this stuff comes from.

43:53Ken Belson:You and I breathe this for breakfast, but you know, like, why am I watching the NFL on good on black Friday? Why am I watching it on Christmas? Where did all this come from? And, you know, a lot of this, I could just riff on without, you know, without much trouble. And she said, you already know this and you've already reported on the Superbowl or the draft or the combine or the owner's meetings or the lockouts. And so you have all this material. So that, that was the genesis of it. It was 22. I pitched it and sold it in 23, early 23. And, and it was really the, um, my agent and the book publisher who said, you need to pick some main characters.

44:33You need to build it around them.

44:35Ken Belson:And really, it was almost, as I said, Jerry and Robert were no brainers. I could have gone with Tagliabue or Goodell, but Tagliabue's been out since 06. He's just more of a historical figure at this point. He was immensely generous for the book for that era, which I had not covered as a journalist. So Roger was the logical third. And Jerry and Robert, not coincidentally, very much had a hand in making sure Roger became commissioner. So the three fit together nicely in that way. So yeah, using them as sort of pivot points throughout the story was helpful. And it frankly wasn't very hard. They had their fingerprints everywhere.

45:16Robert a little later, just because he didn't buy the team until after the Fox deal in 94. So, uh, but yeah, they were everywhere else and I have them, they intersect throughout

45:25Ken Belson:the book, um, you know, in various ways. So it was a lot of fun. I, and because I've interviewed them so much over the years, it wasn't, wasn't that hard. Uh, it was, it was almost more fun to get other owners to talk about them, uh, that it, that it was getting them to talk about it. Cause they've told their stories a hundred times, but, uh, and also Robert's line about Jerry getting a dog off a meat truck. I thought it was one of the winning ones. I know I said that that was the last question, but I'm remiss that I didn't bring this up when I asked you about red flags. And you mentioned in Colin Kaepernick, of course, like sirens went off.

46:00Like a bad reporter. I didn't ask the obvious question. You didn't mention politics as being a red flag. And we also, you know, we saw what happened when they announced Bad Bunny as the halftime show. Did Roger Goodell, did he steer the NFL through that? or is that still potentially murky waters out there?

46:20Ken Belson:I can't speak for Turning Point and the others who are pushing back on Bad Bunny, but I've kind of thought about politics in the sense that politics are a bit transitory, right? I mean, we could get a change of administration in a year or two or whatever, three years. This could just sort of die off. But I have looked at how the attacks and how the league has tried to handle this. And one is really not taking the bait. Right. And the fact that they've been incredibly disciplined in their messaging, I think. Yeah. And it's it's it's the middle of October and we're talking about the halftime show.

46:59Ken Belson:So let's face it. They're already like the promo campaign has started, good or bad. And I suspect there'll be people who hate watch it for all I know. The other is I think the NFL has learned a little bit from Trump 1.0 and they've got tried to get out ahead of it. Trump was invited by Gail Benson to the Super Bowl in New Orleans. In February, the language behind the end zone lines that used to say things like end racism were muted and changed. You know, the NFL chose to, Roger Goodell chose to announce the NFL draft in Washington, D.C. in 2027 in the Oval Office, where Josh Harris, the owner of the Commanders, gave a commander's jersey to the commander-in-chief, Donald Trump.

47:47So I think they're trying to like

47:49Ken Belson:understand that flattery works or flattery could work, um, you know, trying to, uh, stay in contact with the president in that way. It won't stop the president, uh, and others from attacking the league, but, um, it may not, uh, it might mute some of the pushback. The real risk, I think, uh, and you'll follow this, I'm sure, is the ESPN NFL Network deal and whether there's problems in the regulatory process. I don't know. That's been speculated. But, you know, stranger things have happened. Certain things have flown through and other times they've asked for a pile of blood. One thing I'll say about that is Disney and the NFL have excellent lobbying teams in D.C.

48:33Who knows what will happen, but my bet is that it'll sail through. Yeah. And there are owners who are still friendly, you know, Jerry Jones being one of them, uh, still friendly with the president. Um, so I don't think as many owners speak to the president as prior in the prior administration, uh, that was the case.

48:50Ken Belson:But, uh, you know, and if Steve Ross is a real estate developer, he, he, and, and, um, uh, he and Donald Trump had known each other for 40, 50 years. I mean, there's a lot of owners who are in his circles who live down in Florida, live in Palm Beach, have him on speed dial. So, yeah, I don't know. I mean, there could be some ask, but there could just as easily be none at all. Ken, this is so fun for me. I could have you on for like another hour, so I have to end it at some point. Ken Belson wrote Every Day is Sunday, a book about the growing business of the NFL. Good luck with that. I'm pretty sure it's going to do well.

49:30You have the boldface names in there and can't thank you enough for stopping by. It's a lot of fun, John. Thank you.

49:40I really enjoyed that. I could talk about the business of football with Ken Belson for hours. So I really appreciate him taking the time to stop by today. And the one answer that really stuck with me is when I talked about red flags. And the first thing he mentioned was athlete empowerment. He mentioned the NIL. He mentioned the idea that athletes want to be paid to go to the draft or to go to the combine. It really is about changing leverage in the league and how the league office and how the owners are able to adapt to that, because it is certainly something that is slowly starting to happen.

50:17So I want to thank Ken Belson for taking the time to join the pod today. I really enjoyed that. More importantly, though, I want to thank you for listening to The Varsity, an Odyssey podcast in partnership with Puck. I also want to thank Puck's executive editors, Gobby Grossman, Ben Landy, John Kelly, and the great team from Odyssey, Bob Tabador and Patrick Antonetti. If you like this podcast, make sure to sign up for my newsletter, also called The Varsity. Head over to puck.news and use the code word The Varsity, all one word, for a 20 % discount. And I will see you on Sunday.

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