Jim Gray’s History Lessons

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1:09Congratulations! You made the varsity, the podcast. My name is John Aranda, and I am Puck Sports Correspondent and the host of this pod. Today is Sunday, September 6th, Labor Day weekend, and I asked longtime sportscaster Jim Gray to join the pod. Jim is a great storyteller, and you're really going to enjoy his stories about interviewing Mike Tyson, Pete Rose, and of course, The Decision. Now, this interview runs long, so the intro is going to be short, but I want to highlight the U.S. Open in New York, which is undoubtedly making a ton of money this week, but boy, is it getting some bad press.

1:43The event seems lost. Well, maybe not lost, but certainly changing from what it used to be. And I'm not even talking about those overhyped honey deuces. When even the hedge fund billionaire Bill Ackman complains about ticket prices, as he did on Axe, something's wrong. When a sport rife with match fixing allegations signs a deal with Kalshi, something's wrong. And when the USTA courts social media influencers and they disrupt the matches, something's wrong. Yes, something's wrong. Okay, now let's get right to Jim Gray. First of all, Jim Gray, it's a real thrill to have you on. I've been following your career seemingly since the start.

2:24Obviously not. You started way back. We'll get into this, but a Denver affiliate, I think the ABC affiliate, running tapes, talk about a job that doesn't exist anymore, right? And you came out with a book a couple of years ago, Talking to Goats, because you've talked. you know you've interviewed everybody and uh yeah i can't wait to talk to you about you know the pete rose interview that people still talk about or you know lebron james and and the decision but we are right now just uh a couple of days away from the start of the nfl season and you have covered the nfl for for decades and so as you're looking at some of the storylines in the NFL.

3:10How do they differ? Is the NFL and the storylines, are they the same storylines that you would have covered back in the 90s, back in the early 2000s? Is there anything that's different and more unique about the storylines today? Well, the season's long, and so, you know, it's really a marathon, and who can survive, who can still be standing in the end of November. Did the show for a long, long time with Tom Brady. Let's go. We were on the radio together. Still contributes to it. He used to always say that Coach Belichick told him football begins at Thanksgiving. So who can make it and be standing by Thanksgiving with all of the injuries?

3:55And it's just a 100 % injury rate. So the story's going in. Just look at the Rams, what the Rams have done on paper, have made them such a huge, huge favorite going into this. And will Patrick Mahomes be the same guy that he was before he hurt his knee? We all certainly hope so. He was just magical to watch. And so it looks like his rehab has gone well. So I think that's a storyline. You know, the season playing in Australia, the teams are flying. What is it? 17 hours, 34 hours plus ground time. So let's call it 36 hours to go play a three-hour game in Australia. So I think that's a bit odd or unique or different.

4:39I guess the folks down under will get to see three hours of football and the players will go out. The Rams have decided to go the day before, so they're not going to deal with the time change. And the 49ers are already there. So, you know, it's just interesting. But at the end of the day, you know, I used to travel with John Madden. and lived at Madden's apartment at the Dakota for five years. And he always used to get so excited about opening day and wondered why there wasn't bunting out like baseball opening day. But at the end of the day, he would always say, you know, it's the game that matters.

5:12It's not everything that goes on around the field. It's what goes on in between the lines. And so I think when you ask, is it different? At the end of the day, it's football. And that's what makes it so great. And that's what has the stranglehold on America. That's why everybody tunes in. You traveled with Madden. You got on his bus and took off? Sure did. We used to go on the Madden Cruiser. I even went on the train with John a couple of times before he got the Madden Cruiser. And he was such a unique, wonderful guy. Taught us all so much about football. But as a friend, he was just a great friend.

5:50I had gotten my job. I was hired by NBC to work for the Olympics. It was my first network job. And they wanted me to move to New York, and I didn't have a place in New York. Then they said after the Olympics, you wouldn't have to live there. So John said, well, you can just stay at my apartment at the Dakota instead of getting a place. Because John was traveling, and he would only come in when he had games on the East Coast. So if there was a game in Washington or the Giants or up in New England, Philadelphia, he would then stay at his apartment. Otherwise, it would be empty. So his son, Mike, Mike Madden, at the time was working for the Los Angeles Raiders.

6:37And so I gave my apartment to Mike Madden and we traded. So Mike lived in the apartment that I had in Marina D 'Orae and muted over. And I stayed with Madden. But the difference was when Madden gave me his place at the Dakota, I was like the guy who came for dinner and never left. And I ended up staying there for five or six years. I'm trying to picture Jim Gray. I like my image of you, especially in the 90s. Like you wore a suit coat and a tie and you're buttoned up. And John Madden, as I remember him from the 1977 Super Bowl, right? And the untucked shirt and everything. It's almost like a modern day odd couple that you lived back then.

7:20Well, he wasn't there a lot, and his wife, Virginia, didn't travel much. And his sons, Joe and Mike, Joe was in school at the time on the East Coast, and so nobody was using the apartment really other than me. But I'll tell you a quick funny story. I used to go down to Ray's Pizza on the corner, so I went down to get a pizza for Madden and I to eat some dinner. And I walked out of the apartment, and a guy rolled up in a big black sedan, and the window rolled down. He said, are you Jim Gray? And I said, yes, I am. And I waved at him and kept walking. Well, the guy went around the blocks when I got to 72nd and Columbus before I walked into the pizza parlor.

7:59The guy said, hey, are you Jim Gray? I said, yeah, we kind of established that. And I was kind of nervous because he had these real dark tinted windows. And he said, President Nixon would like to speak to you. And they rolled down the back window and there was President Nixon. So I got into the car and it was unbelievable. And he was just had so much information. He was talking, and I talked to him for about 45 minutes, and he was literally Google before Google and Siri before Siri, and he had all this names and information and statistics. And I didn't know if any of them were right because I didn't obviously know the history that he was talking about in the way that he did.

8:29And anyway, it was just a fascinating conversation, and it was so much fun. So I got out of the car, and I walked back, and I didn't bring back the pizza. I said, Madden, you're not going to believe what happened. You just won't believe this. He said, well, where have you been? I said, well, I've been talking to President Nixon for the past 45 minutes. And he got up out of the chair. And it was one of the very few times, if ever, that Madden got upset with me. He said, you don't madden, you can't madden. I said, what are you talking about coach? He said, I had everybody, Matusak, Villapiano, Sistronk, I've had all these guys.

9:03Bantazak, don't come in here telling me a bunch of BS. That's, don't ever madden. And he walked away. Okay, one year later. almost to the day, Madden comes back into the apartment and he says, Gray. He called me Gray. I'm sorry I called you. So what are you talking about? He said, last year I called you. I said, yeah, you did. He said, you won't believe what just happened. I just spoke for an hour to President Nixon in the car outside about sports. Had the exact same experience. I said, what is is this guy stalking 72nd street here? I'm trying to imagine Richard Nixon just driving the streets of New York, looking for famous people to talk to.

9:47That's great. But it was a great joy to have a terrific friendship and to be in coach Madden's company and his family. All right. I can't wait. Let's just jump right into it. I can't wait to talk to you about Pete Rose, the decisions, some of the, some of the the bigger like the the cultural flashpoints that that that you've been a part of but before we dive into some of those uh you've interviewed everybody i mean that was the whole point of of the book that you wrote you know from uh boxing figures to the stars of the nba nfl etc for in your mind not necessarily what what the ones that kind of went viral uh in your mind what are the ones that you appreciate the most?

10:34What are the ones that you're sort of most proud of in terms of interviews? Well, I'm most proud of the Tyson ear biting. And that's the one that people usually talk to me the most about. Because that had never happened before. And it hasn't happened since. so this was long before youtube and and the proliferation of the internet and social media but i just knew when he bit that ear and then bit it for the second time uh that i would be speaking to him and that no matter what he said or how the interview went it would be played and replayed over and over and over again so i was just you know it's the only interview probably john where I've walked away where I said, you know what?

11:26I did that interview right. I got that right. I didn't stumble on any of the questions. I didn't miss any of the things that he said because I wasn't listening. The director wasn't talking to me or the producer in my ear so I could concentrate. And I just walked away knowing that I couldn't do any better. And so that's probably the one that I'm most proud of. I've spoken to the last 11 presidents of the United States. I'm proud of all of those. Mikhail Gorbachev, President Mandela. So all of those have been really unique, incredible experiences. Being able to do President Bush's documentary, First Pitch, that became a 30 for 30.

12:08That kind of stands out because of what it meant to the country and what that moment meant. And it took us 14 years to convince President Bush to do it. And he did it. And it's kind of an appropriate time to be talking about this, John, because he thought that people were starting to forget about 9-11. And now as the 25th anniversary approaches, you know, it's one of those times in our lives where we all remember where we were, what had happened, and just the tragic scenes that were coming out of New York.

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14:02Whether you're defending a title or desperately avoiding last place, I've got you covered every single weekday. The bar is open. It's Fantasy Football Happy Hour with Matthew Berry wherever you get your podcasts. i want to get into something you said the the tyson ear biting interview was one that you didn't have any regrets over and i think people listening to this is going to be jim gray has regrets over some of these you know interviews that that he does like i i'll listen back to this podcast and i'll be like boy my syntax is terrible it took me forever to get to the question i interrupted here I should have asked that follow-up.

14:42You come out of almost every interview with some, regret might be too strong of a word, but like - No regret. A feeling it is regret? No regrets, zero regrets on any of them. However, every time I think I could have done better. Why didn't I ask that question? why did I pause? Why did I stumble on that word? Why didn't I hear the essence of what he was saying to follow up better? I think that we all kind of review these things and just think, you know, I think that all of us in sportscasting, and I'm sure it's the same with producers and directors. That's why we review the tapes, because we want to do it better the next time and try and be better tomorrow than we were yesterday.

15:29So I've always done that. So with the Tyson interview, I just couldn't have done any better. And I didn't blow it. I didn't make any mistakes. And I couldn't have done any better. So that's what I'm proud of, of that. There have been other interviews that I've liked. And I've thought, you know, geez, that was that was pretty good. But by and large, you know, of the 10s of 1000s of interviews that I've done, I just think, you know what, I'm going to do better tomorrow. Do you think about maybe maybe maybe maybe Maybe we're tortured souls. Maybe we're all tortured human beings. Nobody will ever describe me as a perfectionist, possibly.

16:09Do you ever think in terms of do-overs? That is actually an interview I wish I could have done over from the start.

16:20No, but there are things within interviews that I wish that I had had that hindsight. And it's always 2020. So it's not regret. You don't walk around and say, you know, that was terrible or boy, I'm awful. Or boy, you know, this is a disgrace. I had that feeling and I still don't and I won't. No, I've basically been fulfilled and satisfied. So, but I mean, you want to talk about the Pete Rose interview. And, you know, that was a celebration. Okay. It was the first time that Pete had been back on the field a long time because Commissioner Seedling allowed him to be able to be a part of the celebration of that team.

17:04And so when I was watching the ceremony from the dugout, that ceremony felt okay because they were just beyond second base and shallow center field is where it took place. and in the stadium it was pretty quiet with the exception of the roars for some of the guys particularly Hank Aaron so the people at home were having a very melancholy feeling they were hearing the music they were hearing the violins play they were hearing all of those things and I wasn't looking at the monitor so that was a mistake because the tone that I had and what people were receiving at home were different. So that was a great lesson when I watched the tape back that I should be watching TV because if you're on TV, that's what people are receiving.

17:59And so when I came on and started asking him these questions, it was in a different tone and a different feeling than the people were seeing Sandy Colfax and Brooks Robinson and all of the great players that they had this wonderful feeling about Ted Williams and so forth. So with that being the case, that was a terrific lesson to have learned. Because while I don't regret any of the questions, and it was an opportunity for Pete to come clean, and the questioning was the proper questioning, but perhaps the timing and the tone could have been different had i been watching the television monitor now that's interesting because i distinctly remember watching i wasn't uh covering the sport sports business so as a baseball fan i'm watching and those were the questions that i wanted uh but then it did just kind of blow up because that because of what you said but the the tone and sort of the way that you asked it.

19:07That was, as I said, before social media, but it was something that went viral and you were part of a, you know, you were a storyline that went on for seemingly weeks afterwards. How did you deal with that?

19:27Well, you know, it was, I had a great boss, Dick Ebersole. And that was the model of how to treat an employee who was under siege. He came out, put me back right out of my spot the next night, had me present the trophy, and was facing a boycott from the Yankees. And a couple of interesting stories happened there. At that time, we were staying at the Regency Hotel. That was the NBC Hotel. And George Steinbrenner lived at the Regency Hotel and used to see Mr. Steinbrenner all the time. And he became a good friend. And we would sit downstairs sometimes in the bar after the games. And he would be sitting by himself.

20:17And I would see him and go over and have a Coca-Cola. And so at one o 'clock in the morning, after Chad Curtis decided he wasn't going to talk to me in his greatest moment, he decided that somehow he was going to honor Pete Rose and not want to talk to me about the game winning home run that he hit that gave the Yankees a tremendous victory. he said that the team had decided that they weren't talking to me because of the Pete Rose interview, which was idiotic and moronic in all phases by Chad Curtis, that he would take his greatest moment as a pro and turn it into something that had happened, whatever it had been at that time, 48 hours before in Atlanta, within a travel day and then a game.

21:04He decided not to do it. Well, drove back to the hotel that night with Bob Costas in the car. And obviously, I had felt bad that, you know, Curtis and the Yankees didn't want to be a part of speaking to me. And Bob and the broadcast had felt bad. He had been very supportive, as had Joe Morgan and Bob Uecker and Ebersole and everybody on the production, Sam Flood, and so forth. And there was a New York City policeman who was assigned to sit outside my door because of all the threats that NBC had been getting. The switch was inundated, and I had this security guard sitting outside the door. one o 'clock in the morning uh i got a knock on the door and i had my t-shirt on and shorts and was getting ready to go to bed and i thought it was the security guard maybe wanted to order something to use the restroom or something so i opened the door and it was george steinbrunner in his coat and tie and overcoat and he had just come back from yankee stadium and he said can i come in i want you to know that what chad curtis did tonight does not represent how the yankees feel about you.

22:26There's nobody on our team who's going to be boycotting you. And I will not admit that I said this, so please don't repeat it because I'm superstitious and I don't believe in counting anything before it's done. I don't count on it. He said, but if we are so fortunate enough to win this trophy, I will stand next to you during the entire proceedings and there will not be one New York Yankee who will act out of line. They will treat you with the courtesy and respect that you have earned. And I shook his hand and got a little welled up. And I said, thank you, Mr. Stine Runner. I appreciate it. I gave him a hug.

23:08And that next night they won and he stood up there and he didn't let any of the players who had a feeling that they were antagonized by that interview, he didn't let them up there. But Mariano Rivera was up there Joe Torre was up there. Derek Jeter was up there. And George stayed. Usually the owner accepts the trophy and walked away. George stayed there the entire time. You said something earlier, Jim, about the interview that people bring up to you the most is the Mike Tyson ear-biting interview, which surprises me. Because I saw you in Vegas in April, and the first thing, I couldn't wait to talk about the decision and the LeBron James story.

23:53I would have assumed by far that would have been the biggest one. Well, they do that, too. Okay. They do that one, too, yeah. They do that one, too. uh and that that was that was of course the one where lebron left uh cleveland to go to to miami and uh did a whole uh half hour with you uh the interview uh when all all anybody wanted to hear was the question of the answer to one question uh which was uh you know where are you going what are you doing um that that was another instance where you were in the middle of the there was a A lot of ire focused at LeBron for sort of, you know, leaving his hometown to go to play in South Beach of all places.

24:40And you as well. Take us through sort of what that was like, sort of dealing with all of the just press coming from that. Because unlike what you described with the Yankees and unlike the Mike Tyson one, this was all over social media, which is a different kind of just a heater, just a heat wave that you have to deal with. I'll give you two quick stories of how what happened in the past helped prepare me for what happened with LeBron and the decision. um about a week after the Pete Rose interview Al Davis who was a mentor and a dear friend uh called me up and he said how are you doing with this and I told him I'm doing fine doing okay you know um wasn't what I anticipated he says do you get upset that none of your friends have stood up and put an end to this and and and defended you and I said well some of them have but yeah a couple of them?

25:43I am. He said, you can't be upset with that. And I said, why? And he said, because that's just normal. They're not going to take on your problems. They have families to feed. They need their jobs. They're not going to jump into this haymaker and try and diffuse it. That's just normal. He said, so don't be upset with people for being normal. Be grateful for those who are abnormal. And I thought, wow, isn't that something? So there were a few abnormal ones and I'm grateful for them. And so we'll get to LeBron in just a second. And then about three weeks later, I got a call from Marlon Brando. And I did not know Marlon Brando.

26:21And I did not know why Marlon Brando was calling me. So I thought this was Pat O 'Brien fooling around, being a jerk, you know, playing a prank. So I didn't return the call because why would Marlon Brando be calling me? So it turns out I played golf a lot with Jack Nicholson, the great actor. And Jack and Marlon shared the same property. And Marlon had called Jack. My number is, he used to read several newspapers a day, and he was wondering, he continued for so long about the Pete Rose interview, and he wanted to talk to me. So I was playing golf with Jack about three weeks later, and he said, what did Marlon want?

27:01And I said, well, Marlon, Marlon who? He said, I gave Marlon Brando, I gave Marlon your number. I said, Jack, I didn't call him back. I thought it was Pat O 'Brien screwing around. No one doesn't call Marlon back. Better get to him right away, you know? So I called him back and he said, may I offer you some advice? And I said, sure, Mr. Brando. He said, I've been reading all about this on the back pages of these New York papers. And so I called Jack and I asked him, what was the big deal about this interview and what kind of guy you were? And so he gave me your number and he said, I just want to pass on to you that everything they say about me is true.