Matt Berry’s Real Life Sports Fantasy

27:30This is, by the way, this is like 2004. I mean, like this is, you know, years and years ago. And he said, but we're waiting somebody to come in and give us a plan. You know, if you'd like to present us a plan, what you think we should do with fantasy basketball, I'd love to hear. So I put together a pitch and I pitched it to him. and they said, we like it. We're in. We'd like to hire you as a consultant. I wasn't going to be a full-time employee of the NBA, but like, hey, here's a number of hours a month and here's what you're going to do and help us build out fantasy basketball and do more with it than what we're currently doing.

28:08So I did that for about two years and it was great. But in the contract that I had, like I was exclusive to the NBA. Like I couldn't do anything. You know, I had, at this point, I had my own TalentedMrRoto.com website, which is, that was when I got the meeting with the NBA was I was running TalentedMrRoto.com. And we were doing a lot of content for people, including NBA.com. So, but the contract was basically like I was exclusive to NBA. Like I couldn't go work for somebody else. And I got the offer from ESPN. ESPN was like, we want to buy talented Mr. Roto. We want to, you know, bring you to Bristol.

28:51We want to make you our, you know, main fantasy talent. And I'm thinking to myself, but I got this, I got this contract with the NBA, you know, and I don't, I don't know if the NBA is going to let me out of the contract, you know, ESPN is a partner, but would they consider them a competitor? I don't know. So I'm all nervous. Like I'm getting myself all worked up, all worked up. And I like, Like, so I get a meeting with Adam Silver and I go in and like, I am sweating bullets, right, John? Because this is, you know, this is a huge thing. And I like, I love my relationship with the NBA. I don't want to ruin that.

29:22But on the other hand, here's this amazing opportunity and what do I do? And blah, blah, blah. And it's not like, you know, I know Adam Silver well or anything like that. Right. At this point, I've, you know, met him once or twice or whatever, but like super, super nervous. And so I go in and I sit down. And I'm like, so, you know, we catch up a little bit. And I'm just like, so I have this opportunity that I want to talk you through. And so I told him about it. And I said, you know, I don't know. Can I buy myself out of the contract? But, you know, I'm like, and he just like, he's just like, he just looked at me.

29:54It's like, what are you doing? He says, it sounds like that's an awesome opportunity. You should take it. Like, I'm like, but I have this kind of, let me worry about the contract. Don't worry about that. What are you doing? Like, it was just like, this sounds like an awesome opportunity. Like, to him, it was just like, I can't believe you're sweating this or worried about this. Like, it's just, he's like, you know, you should take it. And you should take it with our blessing and go with God. And, you know, like, you know, hey, when you get to ESPN, mention the NBA occasionally. You know what I mean?

30:24Like, he was awesome. You know what I mean? And anyone that's ever dealt with Adam knows, like, that's just who Adam is. But, you know, and now I would be, if somebody came to me with the same sensation, I would say like, oh yeah, Adam's awesome. Just talk to him. But at the time I didn't know that. Yeah, that's great. Cause that's a story. That's a story about Adam and that, that describes who Adam is. I've found that that's a unique story about the sports business. And, and, and I keep telling people that the sports business is such a relationship-based business. And, you know, Adam knew, well, he could have kept you to that contract.

31:01I bet you in, in, in, like, if you were in Hollywood, I bet you, they would have kept you to that contract. That's probably why you were so, paranoid about it, right? He could have done one of two things. He could have easily kept me in the contract. And what am I going to do? Fight the NBA? Fight on himself? Of course not. The other thing he could have done is he could have said, oh, let me talk about it internally. And then he picks up the phone to ESPN and he says, hey, I hear you want my fantasy guy. What are you going to give me for my fantasy guy? Right? And then ESPN either has to like, oh, Now we're in a negotiation with a league partner about, you know, some fantasy guy.

31:36And if I'm ESPN and I get that call, you're like, let's just find another fantasy guy. You know, we're already paying the NBA, you know, a gazillion dollars. Like, I don't need, you know, I don't want to be, you know, whatever. I don't know what their reaction would have been, right? But certainly he could have done that behind the scenes if he wanted to, which he would have been well within his rights. I was under contract. He would have been well within his rights to say, hey, broadcast partner, You want one of my employees? I'm happy to, you know, have that conversation. But what's in it for the NBA?

32:06He absolutely could have. He would have been 100 % within his rights, but didn't do any of that. He literally just said right in the meeting, 30 seconds into me making the pitch was just like, dude, what? Stop. Like, go. That sounds awesome. Yeah. Stop with the pitch already. Take the yes. And, you know, and, you know, and obviously went to ESPN and, you know, was there for 15 years. It was an amazing run. And, you know, anyway, yes. But yeah, I mean, he easily could have done that. And so, again, I've written that story. That story's in my book. A version of that story's in my book. But I'm forever indebted to the NBA.

32:45I'm forever indebted to Adam Silver. Let me take one more quick break. And I want to end just with a couple of industry-focused questions.

33:04all right so there's uh i've been odin on some of these prop bets and the scandals uh that that have hit all the different leagues uh and there's a real dichotomy from people that i talk to like if i taught uh old friends who are not in the business like are appalled by this this is an example of legalized gambling going too crazy. And of course, this is happening. And then if you talk to the FanDuel's or DraftKings or executives that are within the sports betting sphere, they're going to say, boy, thank goodness for the legalization of gambling because now we're catching these in a real world way.

33:47I suspect that you're more in with the sports betting viewpoint of this. But my question to you is like, what are you noticing within the leagues? Do they also feel like, okay, the sunshine is on this. So now we're able to root out the bad actors quicker? Or are they like, holy crap, we just unlocked Pandora's box? Or are they somewhere in between? Yeah. I mean, I don't know that it's my place to speak for any of the leagues. so I'll merely say my opinion is that I am with the DraftKings and FanDuel and sportsbooks of the world. I agree. I just remember when Passport was overturned and people were like, oh, are you worried about your job?

34:34Are you worried now that sports betting is legal, that no one's going to play fantasy? And I was just like, that question basically has the premise that no one has ever bet on sports before. And you're like, it was a multi-billion dollar industry well before PASPA. It just was illegal and offshore and being done on street corners with bookies and, you know, and, you know, sites, sites that are offshore. And now it just can come into the limelight. But like people have been betting on sports since sports started. And, you know, so the idea that, you know, that now all of a sudden, because the proliferation of sports betting ads, that suddenly, you know, players are more susceptible or whatever, like that's, there's, that has always been an issue.

35:20That has always been an issue that, you know, is there a player on the take? Is there a player that is not, where the game is not straight up, right? Whether it's, you know, a boxing match, you know, baseball, whatever, pick your sport, Right. And so that's always gone on. And so I would agree that the more the more regulated the industry is, the more regulated the industry is, the better, the better it is. you know, and because you're right, because it's much more easy to catch, you know, players or people that should not be betting to catch them, right? You're not going to do it as much, but like, I mean, you know, what was the, you know, think about the scandal with

36:18Shohei's interpreter, right? You know, I mean, like, that happened in a state where sports betting isn't regulated. That happened in California. So I don't know, I'm a big believer. I think, not surprising. I think sports betting should be legalized in all 50 states. I honestly think it should not be a state issue. It should be a national issue. There should just be a national, here are the rules around sports betting, around DFS, around DFS 2.0, pick them, around paid season-long fantasy football. Whatever form of sports gaming that you're doing, there should just be one national law. And yes, the more regulated, the better.

37:07I will tell you that one of my sons, I have three adult children. one of my sons works for a major, major sports book. And the amount of responsible, and he deals with players. So what he actually does is he works in VIP and with clients that bet a lot. And the amount of responsible gaming seminars that he does, the amount of responsible gaming that check that he does, like it's, it's half, if not more of his job is, is, so I can tell you that the company that he works for and all the major ones, they take responsible gaming very, very seriously, not just for athletes, but for everyone. Can you help me out?

37:59Like what, what is responsible gaming? Is that to identify problem gamblers or is that to identify? This is somebody that is betting more than they should, that has suffered a lot of losses. This is somebody that is

38:19displaying problem, showing signs of addiction. Yeah, 100%. It is making sure that people are are betting for the right reasons, which is entertainment, um, uh, you know, and, and within their means. I hate to do this because that's a good thread, but we're nearing the end of the pod. I want to hop to one other topic. Um, you started at NBC, as I said, uh, three years ago, you're, you're entering your fourth year, August of, uh, 2022, August of, yeah, I think I made my debut at the Hall of Fame game, the preseason Hall of Fame game on Football Night in America, August 4th of 2022, August 5th, something like that.

39:04That's crazy to me. It still seems like two weeks ago that you started. I just did back of the envelope math. You're entering a contract year. Yes, I suppose so. How are you viewing the overall media market? I think it's a really interesting one. And I think that, I think in general, I won't speak about myself specifically because I'll let other people decide. But I do think, listen, I think it's a really good market at the moment for people that have brand names, that have large audiences, that have proven those audiences will move with them. I think especially, you know, especially if you have a large audience that is mostly digital.

39:52Right. So so I think it's I think it's I think it's a really good market, obviously, given the the amount of interest and money that are generated by sports betting, by fantasy sports, being that that's my that's my beat, as it were. You know, I feel pretty good. Like, you never know. You never know what the next year brings. But I do think the market for sports media talent, if you've proven you can drive an audience, is really robust. We've seen some really, really big deals in the last year or so, right? And what we've also seen is that companies overall are much more willing to work with talent.

40:40I think it's specific to the talent, but, you know, you, I don't, you know, Stephen A and like Stephen A's top of the market. Right. But I don't know that even Stephen A gets the kind of deal that Stephen A did five years ago. And Stephen A was top of the market five years ago. But you know what I mean? Like, I think that, you know, as you see some of these. Well, I mean, if you do talk to Jimmy Pataro and you referenced the whole idea of, you know, a digital audience, he places a value. And I don't know how much of Stephen A's$25 million deal is this, but he goes viral. Who else at ESPN goes viral as often as Stephen A on first take?

41:23And they place a lot of value on that because it reaches people outside of that walled cable garden. For sure. And it's just, where can you be valuable to the company? There's a lot of different ways that you can be valuable to whatever company you're with. So listen, I'm at NBC. I'm happy at NBC. They seem happy with me. They've not only let me build Fantasy Life, they've partnered with us. Again, we are among the partnerships that Fantasy Life has. We are the official tools partner of NBC Sports. And so if you go to NBCSports.com or you go to RotorWool.com and you buy a premium tool, you go through the checkout and buy a premium tool, you're buying a subscription to Fantasy Life Plus.

42:11And we share in that revenue, obviously. And so they've been great partners to me and to Fantasy Life. And so, you know, I don't want to speak for NBC. But, you know, so far it's gone very well. So we'll see what happens at the end of this year. But I'm excited about it. I'm excited about sort of seeing, you know, how this next year plays out. I'm excited. I'm excited to be at NBA. I'll say this real quickly because I don't want to, you know, people will make headlines, you know, and I'm at NBC. I'm at NBC and I'm happy at NBC. I want to be very clear about that. I want that. You know what I mean?

42:48But, you know, this year at NBC is going to be awesome, right? You know, where we've got the Super Bowl this year. We've got the Big Ten Championship. We've got, we start the NBA. We've got NBA All-Star. We've got Western Conference Finals. We've got, you know, we've got NASCAR, Olympics. Um, there's 8 million things I'm forgetting big 10 football, Notre Dame football. Uh, we got the world cup on Telemundo. Um, you know, it's, uh, it's a embarrassment of riches at NBC, not to mention, of course, like the Kentucky, some of our standard tentpole events like the Kentucky Derby as well. So it's, um, uh, it's, you know, PGA golf, all the champion, you know, Ryder cup.

43:28Uh, it's, uh, yeah, it's, it's just, um, it's gonna be a fun year to be at NBC. It's going to be really fun. So, and then we'll see what happens. I ask this of every NBC executive that I run across. You, of course, are going to spend Super Bowl week at the Super Bowl. You're going to go to the Super Bowl. Are the Olympics in your cards? Have you thought about that? Have you planned? I would love to be part of the Olympics. I don't know if I'm in NBC's plans for the Olympics. I haven't had those conversations with them. I've certainly raised my hand and say like, hey, how can I help? But they know that about me.

44:01I've always said that, how can I help as well? So, you know, we'll see. One of the things that, one of the things I really like about NBC, and there's a lot, but one of the things I really like about this is that Rick Cordella is a fantasy guy. Rick Cordella came up through fantasy. He started at Rotoworld. Him and I actually started at Rotoworld about the same time. And so he, him and I, you know, sort of slightly different paths, obviously, but we literally like, he was writing player blurbs and doing backend coding while I was doing my first love hate column on Rotor World in 1999, I swear to God.

44:39And so, you know, and obviously he's just had a meteoric rise and now he's president of NBC Sports, but I love the fact that like, he's a fantasy guy. Like he gets it, Like, you know, I've worked at companies, I've worked for people that weren't fantasy guys and weren't fan, didn't understand like, oh yeah, I heard it's popular, you know, whatever the, you know, and yeah, I know it makes us money, but you know, they don't understand the kind of the culture and the ethos of it. And, and Rick really does, uh, which is exciting. Like I'm at, I'm in a guillotine league with him. Like has Cordella ever finished ahead of you in, in a fantasy football?

45:17He, I'll tell you this in, in our guillotine league. Yeah, he did actually. He survived longer than I did. By the way, I love Rick, but Rick hired somebody to make his picks. No, no, no. Rick's into it. Come on. Rick's into it. Rick's into it. I had a partner in my league. And so the partner in the league that I'm in with Rick, me and I had a partner. And so, you know, sometimes when you have a partner, you know, like you get a player, I got a player. But anyway, whatever. That's the beauty of Guillotine League. You have the greatest team in the world. I didn't even tell you guillotine league, but anyway, so Rick, yes, Rick beat me in our guillotine league.

45:57Here's guillotine league because you play fantasy football and for anyone listening, okay? You're in a league, you draft a team like normal. You start a lineup like normal. Here's the twist. At the end of the week, the team that has the lowest score in the league gets cut, chopped forever. Your season's over. And then you just keep repeating that until only one team remains. It is literally fantasy for the fearless, right? And the other big twist is that all the players on the team that got chopped go back into the free agent pool. So now every single week, instead of bidding on like some fourth string wide receiver or a backup running back that you're hoping there's an injury to the starter, you're bidding on actual starters.

46:42You're bidding on some team's first round pick, their second round pick, their quarterback, their star tight end. You know what I mean? Like it's week six and you're like, holy crap, Jamar Chase and Saquon Barkley are on the waiver wire. How is this possible? How much should I bid for Saquon Barkley in week six? Like, and it is, I will give you a mind blowing stat here, John. So one of the reasons we acquired Guillotine League is because A, I played the game for the first time. I became so addicted with it. Like I loved it so much, I bought the company. Literally that, right? But it's also like, it is everyone that's ever played the game has been like, I love this.

47:22Like, I'll give you a story. One of the players in, I'm in a guillotine league with Maverick Carter. After we did the first round of financing for Fantasy Life, I put together a guillotine league because you can also have up to 18 people. So you can have a big league. I put together a league of all the investors in the first round of Fantasy Life. And I think we were like four weeks into, I think we were four weeks into the season and Maverick texts me and be like, when are we buying guillotine leagues? This is awesome. And I said, way ahead of you. I just had a conversation with Paul last week about if he would be willing to sell.

48:02Paul Charchian, who founded Guillotine Leagues and now works for Fantasy Life. And so, yeah, I mean, it's a - I'm just trying, Matt, I'm just trying to pick you're the team that loses in the first week. I mean, you must be like, oh my God, I prepared for the draft and now I'm out forever. But yeah, but oh, it's awful. But then you like for 18 weeks, I mean, again, some leagues and the leagues I'm in are like 18 people. It gets thin quick. And so you have one guy with a bad week and you're just like, you know, the average session per user on guillotine leagues is 22 minutes. Like it's like, that's 22 minutes.

48:42It is such an addicting format. It is such a crazy, crazy format. So we're really excited about the potential of it. Matt, I could have you. I love having you come on. I could talk to you for another hour. I promised a half hour. We blew through that in the first two segments. Well, you asked me for the pitch for Fantasy Life. That's what killed it. That's what, you know, you get me talking about Fantasy Life. I can't. By the way, when you said a half hour, I was like Cliff Notes. I knew it was going to fall somewhere in between. But congratulations,$7 million and boldface names. And Fantasy Life is, I mean, what an advertisement for Fantasy Life this week.

49:22Just the number of people and the interest and everything through it. Sincere congratulations to you on building something like that. I appreciate that. Thank you so much. It's less about the boldface names to me. It's more about that people that have the option to invest in whatever the hell they want and that pitch things 70 times a day believe in what we're building and said, I want to be a part of that journey. And I want to be a part of that journey in a way, not just, hey, good luck to you, but hey, here's my money and my name. You know what I mean? Like, yes, use my name in a press release.

49:58Yes, talk about me. Yes, you know, with Maverick. Yes, let's do a picture and make sure that gets out. Like, that's to me the most important thing in terms of what we're building. And I have to say one last thing. I just want to make sure I get this in here. I think the thing I'm most proud about with Fantasy Life is that last year, both Sports Business Journal and Front Office Sports named us one of the best places to work in sports. And you know, John, from your time at SBJ, like, that's an award that you can't buy, that you can't influence, that is done entirely anonymously. All your workers, we have 25 full-time employees, have to talk.

50:41They do independent reviews. They do third-party research on that as well. I know companies that have actively tried to win that award and have not. They've tried to pressure either front office sports or Sports Business Journal into giving them that award and like, nope, it's entirely independent. So the fact that we won both those awards to me is like, you know, the culture that we're building, I think is really important. That's, you know, I think, right. It's all, it all comes down to people. Right. And so, um, so that to me is probably the most impressive thing. All right. My get out question number one in the, in the draft, Jamar Chase, no question.

51:20Listen, there's, if there's, there's a handful of people that if you said like, I'm going with, I'm going with Saquon. I'm going with, you know, Justin Jefferson. I'm going with Ashton Gentry. I'm going with CD lamb. I'm going with B. John Robinson. Like, sure. Like they're all awesome. You know what I mean? I have Jamar Chase at number one worth, by the way, proud fantasy life investor, Jamar Chase, um, by the way, on our cap table, I'd say that another bold face name, another bold face name. Unless we have like Joe Burrow, Josh Allen, Jamar Chase, Austin Eckler. I mean, they're, you know, Larry Fitzgerald.

51:52That's a fantasy team right there. It really is. George Kittle. I mean, no, we have a bunch of fantasy superstars on our team. And Larry Fitzgerald, who, of course, was a fantasy superstar for many, many years. John Legend. I forgot to even mention John Legend. I can't believe I forgot John Legend. Yeah, how did I not bring that up at first? Yeah, crazy. John Legend, by the way, John Legend is a really good fantasy player. I just randomly, no one would think that, but I've been in a fantasy league. I've been in a bunch of fantasy leagues, but I've probably been in, I've been in at least one fantasy league with John Legend for six or seven years now.

52:27And he's never not made the playoffs. John, he like, he takes it seriously. He's like in four or five leagues. He is like, John Legend knows his stuff, man. He's, he's a really good fantasy player. What makes a good fantasy player? Is it the draft? Is it the free agency? Is it a little bit of both? It's, it's all of it. It's, it's mostly paying attention to be honest with you. But it's also like, no, but it's drafting well, being able to make waiver moves when you don't draft well or when somebody gets hurt or that kind of stuff. So it's about roster management. It's about the start-sit decisions you make.

53:06It's about trades you make. Like, I've never seen John Legend make a trade where I went like, wow, he got ripped off. You know what I mean? Like, you know, when the notification comes through on the league, you're like, good trade for Legend. Like, yeah, he's, yeah, he's just, most of my league are all very good players, but just, I'm always amazed at, like, people that are insanely, insanely famous and busy and, you know, incredible demands on their time, right? It's what I do for a living, right? But, you know, John Legend is, you know, multi-talented musician slash businessman slash entrepreneur slash brand, right?

53:49And he is, he's, anyway, I'm a big fan of John Legend. Matt Berry, I gotta cut you off or we're gonna go on for another hour. Yeah, no, sorry. You're the best. We're gonna get you on before the football season again, hopefully, to really get into fantasy. Yeah, and I want you to do a guillotine league this year, John. I want you to, you should honestly, because it's a completely different format. Like you should go to your high school buddies. I know you're in the same league forever and ever, ever with your buddies. And go to them because you can do it with any kind of, any size league. So you can do it with the 10 guys that you got.

54:21Just say, hey, I want us to also try a guillotine league because it's a completely different format. The way you draft is different. The strategy is different. You know, you're not aiming for upside. You're aiming for floor. you're just, all you want to do is just finish second to last every week or better. You know what I mean? There has to be one, somebody worse. Yes. Right. You don't have to outrun the lion. You just have to outrun one guy, right? That's the thing. You just have to outrun your buddy, you know? And so that's the, um, that's the beauty of it, but it is, it's one and done like you.

54:55Um, so, uh, anyway, yeah, we have a, we have a brand new app and a brand new platform for it at guillotineleagues.com. So check it out. Free to play. You're great, man. Thanks for time. Appreciate you, brother.

55:12That was great. I was most interested in hearing Matt talk about the market that's out there for him personally. His contract is up after this season and he can see what others have done, like Stephen A. or McAfee. I mean, with his fantasy life platform, Matthew Berry can put numbers on his own popularity. Now, I'm not trying to start anything. He's happy at NBC, and it seems like he's going to stay there. He said as much on the pod. Plus, there's something to be said for being in front of 20 million people every Sunday night through the fall. That's got to help Fantasy Life, right? But the whole first half of this interview, when he talks about the growth of Fantasy Life and what he's been doing to build it, that shows that the dynamics of sports media are shifting as we speak.

55:59So I want to thank Matthew Berry for taking the time to join the pod today. I also want to thank his PR team for helping to set this up. Matt Sanders, Chris Cunningham, Stephen Moody. More importantly, though, I want to thank you for listening to The Varsity, an Odyssey podcast in partnership with Puck. I also want to thank the team from Puck, executive editors Gobby Grossman, Ben Landy, and John Kelly, and the great team from Odyssey, Bob Tabador and Patrick Antonetti. If you like this podcast, make sure to sign up for my newsletter, also called The Varsity. Head over to puck.news and use the code THEVARSITY, all one word, for a 20 % discount.

56:34And I will see you on Wednesday.