Matthew Berry’s Sports Media Crystal Ball

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0:49Congratulations! You made the varsity, the podcast. My name is John Aranda, and I am Puck's sports correspondent and the host of this pod. Today, Matthew Barry joins the pod. He is, of course, a fixture on NBC's NFL coverage. And he's an entrepreneur. He launched Fantasy Life a couple of years ago. I've known Matthew Barry for a while now, ever since the talented Mr. Roto days. And he always has had a sharp mind on sports media stories that matter. So I'm really looking forward to this conversation. But before we get to Matthew Barry, today is Sunday, November 23rd. and here's what I'm watching.

1:28Today, it's all about NBC's decision to consider selling next year's Big Ten championship game to Amazon. I broke this story in my private email last week, and it's a wild one. NBC has had talks with Netflix that I'm told went nowhere, and now NBC is talking to Amazon about the 2026 Big Ten championship game. Those talks are still early, but they are still happening. And the thing is, this all comes down to a money issue. Just last week, NBC agreed to pay baseball around$200 million per year. Last month, it started paying the NBA$2.5 billion per year. That's billion with a B. And the NFL? Well, it's about to open up its TV deals, and believe me, they're going to break the bank.

2:17So if NBC can find an opportunity to make some money back on a one-off game, it's going to consider that. Remember, next year is the only time NBC has the rights to the Big Ten championship game. CBS and Fox, they carry it every other year. Now, this is a problem with all of legacy media. As rights fees continue to increase and the number of paying subscribers continues to drop, legacy media is going to look to cut costs in new areas. and sub-licensing a game like this is certainly a new area. So this is a story to watch because it's not clear that NBC even has the rights to sell this game to Amazon.

2:58I'm told that both the Big Ten and Fox would have to ratify this deal. Fox, of course, owns the majority of the Big Ten network, which is why it has the power to ratify this kind of deal. And I'm told that Fox hates the idea that NBC or CBS has the power to cherry pick games and then sell them elsewhere, particularly a sale to a streaming service like Amazon. It's an interesting story that it could go nowhere. And even if it does, nothing's going to happen anytime soon. But this is a story that I'm particularly interested in because it offers a snapshot into where sports media is currently, and more importantly, where it's headed.

3:38Okay, now let's get to Matthew Barry. Matt Barry, thank you for joining us first of all, but we've known each other for a while. We get together a lot. And I love talking to you about, you're sort of a sports media savant almost. You know a lot about issues. I'm going to just open up with an open question. Sports media stories that you're following right now, like what's the biggest one that you're following? Well, listen, I'm a talent. So I'm egocentric, like all talent. I only care about myself. I'm egocentric. I don't think I know we're on TV now. I don't think I'm talent yet. I think I'm still a reporter, right?

4:17You're still a reporter, but you're getting there. You never know. Stephen A. Smith started as a reporter. People forget that. He was at the Philadelphia Inquirer. Now he's the biggest guy in sports media. So you never know, John. You're on your path to becoming one of us. But anyway, as a myopic, self-centered, egocentric talent, the sports media stuff that I care the most about is talent deals and what's going on at some of the big mergers and everything like that, just in terms of potential employers, potential partners for what I'm building at Fantasy Life. So those are all, I'm very myopic in terms of what I follow.

4:57I'm fairly, I don't know that I would call myself a savant, but I'm certainly a fan of sports media. I devour everything you write. Marshan, I'm a big fan of as well. The front office sports guys do, I think, a really good job. On and on. Awful Announcing, I think, does a really good job. So lots of people in sports media, I think, do a really good job covering. So you tell me what's on your mind. What do you find coming up the most? Well, let's stick with talent for a second, because right now it would seem that with all of the streamers, with all of the TV networks, and with all of the digital opportunities out there, it would seem like there's no better time to be a rising talent right now.

5:40Is that true, or is there too many opportunities so it's hard to break through? I don't know about rising talent. I think being a talent that can bring an audience. I think bringing a talent that can move the needle. I think AI is going to, already has started to, and it's going to commoditize talent in a lot of ways, especially like written, you know, in terms of video, in terms of television, not as much, obviously. But I think that anyone that has an audience, that has a movable audience, I think this is a really great time. Because to your point, there are so many channels and streamers and companies that are desperate for attention, that want an audience, that are trying to, in some ways, monetize their audience, whether it's to subscribe to a streamer or buy a product or play a fantasy game or bet with them, whatever it is, they're all looking for talent that can help them drive revenue, right?

6:40And so I think it's a great time to be a talent that has that ability. A rising talent, a mid-tier talent, that might be tougher. It's positive in that there's so many outlets, but it's a negative in that there's so many outlets. And so, and that there is, you know, there's candidly, there's a lot of talent as well. And so not every company is investing in talent. They're investing in sports rights. They're investing in technology. Some companies are, but not every company is, it feels like. Let me, you mentioned AI. Threat, friend, obviously a little bit of both. How is it a threat? I don't think it is a, specifically to me, the idea is that AI can find the best odds, find the best matchups can quickly, you know, hey, I'm looking to, in fantasy football, I'm looking to start this person, start that player, what decision should I make?

7:35And so AI suddenly can encapsulate all sorts of information very quickly, right? And so I'm in the information business, you know, now I do it in an entertaining way. And I don't think chat GPT or wherever you perplexity or whatever you use is going to get there on the personality front. But in terms of information, you know, it's right there. The other thing that it hurts when it comes to digital, specifically traffic, is that as you notice, you Google something, all of a sudden, here's the AI result. And so SEO has become very, very challenging in terms of driving traffic digitally. And so having people that are search terms, people that you're looking for, that people are actively looking for, that they're not just looking for, you know, in my, I'll use me as an example, right?

8:20Like if you're looking for fantasy football rankings, it probably doesn't come up. But hopefully what I've done is I've developed enough big of an audience and a brand name where people instead of instead of searching for fantasy football rankings, they're looking for Matthew Barry's rankings. Right. And that's what you're hoping for. Right. But even still, you know, there's there's an AI crawler that will crawl and says, here's who Matthew Barry's ranked. And so they they search the web and they find my rankings, which are at NBC Sports dot com. And they you know, then they publish them. So that's where I think AI currently is.

8:50a challenge and a threat to at least what I do and specific to anyone that's doing content that's written, I think, on the web or digital. That relies on digital traffic is probably a better way to put it. Are you concerned at all about, what is it, Sora? You know, people taking like your likeness. I mean, you're on TV. Your videos are all over the internet and taking that likeness. um i i you know there's so many other people like you know i i'd rather be me that for that specific topic i think i'd rather be me than you know sydney sweeney uh but because people are going to get creative on the internet for sure i think sora's done a good job of labeling this is sora i think the concern becomes when you get a company that has sora level technology but not the ethics of Sora, where they don't clearly label, this is obviously AI, this is obviously fake, this is obviously somebody's imagination.

9:51That's the concern is where, is you get into that scenario, right? But Sora, you know, anytime you see a Sora video, you know it's Sora. Like they have done a very good job of being like, this is fake. So I think it all depends on sort of what you do. I think for me as a talent, as I just sort of think out loud at that question. For me, the concern would be specifically is that if somebody, you know, I'm not worried about someone, you know, necessarily putting me in a compromising position. But I do think that if somebody had my voice and face saying something that I would never say, saying something that is, you know, racist or sexist or bigoted or, you know, something that, you know, candidly gets you canceled, right?

10:44You don't want that, right? You know, and so, and that's, that's unfortunately, I think that's a possibility for people in the public eye. That you've already seen some of that and it's all, to date, it's been, it's been somewhat crude and you can sort of tell, well, clearly that person did not say that. But, you know, there's Instagram accounts that are literally like just fake player press conferences that, you know, that just have professional athletes at a press conference saying stuff that they would never say at a press conference. And it's very funny. And it's clearly AI, but you're getting towards the part where some bad actors will take advantage.

11:24Yeah, even without video, there's some Instagram sites that take out quotes that somebody apparently said at a press conference that never actually happened. And you see them getting moved on. But what's funny is you asked me what I'm looking at as well. And ironically, it's the exact same thing, but not through a talent lens. I mean, we're seeing so much disruption right now with legacy media that it's that that we're I just in the opening here, I just retold the story about NBC looking to sell the rights to next year's Big Ten championship game. And they're trying to find somebody for that. and they would like to get some money back for it.

12:07Because right now, money's at a premium for these legacy media companies that are spending more and more and more on sports rights and finding that the number of paying subscribers to cable or to satellite or to whatever continue to drop. And so one of the fast, I've said this for a while, the biggest story that I'm going to be watching is where that line is drawn between the haves, obviously the NFL's a half, Obviously, the NBA is a have, college football is a have, and the have-nots. And whoever falls under that line, could it be Major League Baseball? We'll find out in 2028. I don't think it'll be, but it could be.

12:45Could it be the National Hockey League, which is coming up at the same time? It's going to be a big sport and a big league that somehow falls below that line that's going to create a tsunami of headlines. Yeah, it's interesting, right? Right. I mean, so especially because, by the way, it all depends, I sort of think, on appetite. Right. Because, you know, so much has been made about the MLS Apple TV deal. Right. And so I think was that a good deal or is that a bad deal? Right. For both MLS and Apple. And so you sort of think about that. The other thing that's interesting is that you become it's weird.

13:22I feel like on some level, John, there's more buyers. right there you know there's we we're seeing the the the youtubes and the and the amazons and the netflix's the world get into sports more and more and more but then you're also like you know warner brothers and turner like whether whether it's paramount or or uh or netflix or uh you know um comcast feels like you know that's going to be a buyer that becomes smaller right nfl network nfl media and espn they're combined forces so now that's that's one buyer instead of two right and so um and to your point they're gonna they're going to watch their budget and the concern becomes the nfl doesn't have to lose any sleep college football and the college football playoff they don't have to lose any sleep the ncaa tournament doesn't have to lose any sleep the masters um doesn't have to lose any sleep the nba doesn't have to lose any sleep but like if you're a sport that doesn't uh you know all these companies are smart all you know like they're all just like hey um i realize this is going to cost me a billion dollars two billion dollars three billion dollars whatever it's going to cost you know for a year two years whatever but i know i can make money from from the ratings from the advertising from the sponsorship from the surrounding programming i do around it but there's going to come a point where that those price tags in some of those sports john i feel like it's not going to justify the investment right and so i feel like companies companies are willing to spend a lot of money but only for the right thing and ironically too i think that you're seeing at the at the low end of that market you have a property like tgl you know that's rory mcclroy and tiger woods is indoor golf and and they've sold stakes in that to to the networks paul rabel's pll the premier lacrosse league espn bought a part of that so they're set it's like the middle it's a middle class that that's really getting hurt on this, it seems.

15:20Well, and again, like you're smarter about business and, you know, 90 % of the people listening are smarter than I am on this. So, you know, my dumb, uninformed view on this is that that is a really smart way to go, that the NFL, you know, getting a piece of ESPN and vice versa, that, you know, you saw basically the sports leagues, whether it's MLB TV, NBA TV, NFL Network, on and on and on. You saw them trying to distribute their own content with middling success and now saying, all right, listen, what we do really well is produce content, games, et cetera. Let's let somebody else worry about the distribution.

16:01Let's let somebody that's an expert worry about the distribution. This is a bit of a detour. But to your point, I think I'm a big Michael Rubin fan. I just think he's, I'm so impressed with what he's built in Fanatics. And I think it's just a super smart company and a very forward thinking company. And when Ruben was building Fanatics, that's what he did, right? The NFL has a piece, the NBA has a piece, all these professional, all these players associations and all these sports leagues all have a piece of Fanatics. They're all financially incentivized for Fanatics to have the success that it's had so far continue to grow right and so again we talk about uh you know you talk about the nfl and espn deal so smart i thought that was so smart by both both the nfl and by espn to financially incentivize each other for their success and their long-term growth and so i just think seeing more and more deals like that make a ton of sense and especially if you're something like if you're somewhat of a niche product like the pll like it's a no-brainer it's a no-brainer you've seen it somewhat with women's sports as well.

17:07I just think it's all super, super smart on devils in the details, of course, but I just think that's really smart by all participants. Matt, let me take a quick break. I want to come back. I want to get back into talking about you as a talent and how you view that the business is a talent. Sure.

17:30Matthew Berry:Hey, it's Bill from the Bill Simmons Podcast. FIFA World Cup 26 fans. Listen up. It's the official beer sponsor of the FIFA World Cup 26. Michelob Ultra is giving away $1 million worth of FIFA World Cup 26 tickets and prizes. Enter now at MichelobUltra.com slash superior access slash FIFA World Cup 26. Michelob Ultra FIFA World Cup 26 superior access. No purchase necessary. Open U.S. Residence 21 Plus begins on December 1st, 2025. Ends on July 31st, 2026. Multiple entry periods. Visit www.miclobaltra.com slash superior access slash FIFA World Cup 26 for free entry, entry deadlines, prizes, and details.

18:01History That Doesn't Suck is a legit, hard-hitting American history podcast told through entertaining stories. As we approach America's 250th anniversary, now might be the time to go back and learn how we got here. With more than 200 episodes, you can bend your way, decade by decade, defining event to defining event from the founding into the 20th century. Join me, Professor Greg Jackson, for History That Doesn't Suck, an Odyssey podcast, available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Okay, so if you're somebody of my age, and your age, you're at the pinnacle, man. You're at NBC.

18:39You're at a broadcast network. You are involved with the most viewed primetime program going, I forget whether it's 13 years or 12 years, for a long time. I mean, that's where you can - Chris McCloskey will send you an email reminding you exactly of how many years it is. I'm sure, don't worry about that. Absolutely, yeah. It's a lot. And it'll be another one next year. You can just keep adding to it. As you look at the landscape out there, does that matter as much still? Like being with a broadcast network versus, say, even being a TikTok star or being an influencer that actually goes to more people seemingly.

19:24If you look at the number of followers, number of downloaders, obviously you still want to be on broadcast TV. That's not a serious question. But how do you balance those two? So I can answer that question two ways. I want to answer that question for me specifically, and then I want to answer that question for talent in general. So the question for me specifically, yes, very important. It was important to me when I left ESPN. I'm like, all right, well, if you leave ESPN, the legit worldwide leader in sports, and I've said this many times in many interviews, and I'll say it again. I left with hugs and handshakes.

19:58I still like ESPN. I still root for ESPN. I think they do a great job. I'm a big fan of Jimmy and Burke and everyone on the way down. I got many talent leave ESPN, and it's not always a great breakup. I loved my time at ESPN. I had a great run. I got nothing but good things to say about the company. So if you're going to leave, and I had a great gig. I was the fantasy guy at ESPN, the largest fantasy game platform in the space. So if I was going to leave a place like that, it had to be a scenario that, you know, I felt was, you know, was a step up, honestly, on some level, at least for me specifically.

20:39Right. And so for a fantasy guy and a sports betting guy to be able to be on football night in America, you know, not only an NFL pregame show, but like the NFL pregame show, to your point, the most watched one before the Sunday night football game, you know, with with a bunch of absolute legends. like that was like that was compelling uh obviously and so uh for me specifically as a there were a lot of opportunities to do different things when i decided to leave espn but um that being able to be part of an nfl pregame show was really important to me uh given that you know i'm a fantasy guy and i never really had been before and then the opportunity to be a part of that specific uh pregame show football night in america and all capital letters was you know super compelling and interesting and it's been an awesome experience.

21:25You know, we've got the Super Bowl this year. And God willing, I'm going to be, you know, I will be there. I'll be on the field in, you know, in the state, in whatever, I don't even know what we call the party more. You're showing your age. I was going to say candlestick. You show my age. But I will be on the field in San Francisco on the sideline as a part of a Super Bowl pregame show. I've never played the game. I've never thrown a pass. I've never coached an NFL player. I've never done any of that. I'm a fantasy football nerd, and I'm going to be part of a Super Bowl pregame show. And that's unbelievably meaningful to me.

22:05It's an incredible opportunity. Thank you, NBC. And so for me to have that opportunity, to push the ball forward for people in my industry, in the fantasy football industry, in the sports betting industry, that's where I came out of. Not an ex-player that's like now suddenly doing prop bets because a sports betting sponsor sponsors the NFL pregame show that they work on. But somebody that literally came up through the ranks to do that. And I, you know, I can't imagine there's anyone else. Maybe I'm wrong on this. But I believe fairly strongly that I will be the first fantasy football and sports betting analyst, pure fantasy football guy, to be on a Super Bowl pregame show when that happens this February in San Francisco.

22:46go. So for me specifically, John, going to a broadcast network, a big legacy media company was super important to me. Now, for other talent, especially at that point in my life right then, right? I love the NFL and I think it's important for me to be, as a talent, I have fantasy life and we talk about that, but it's important for me to be adjacent to the NFL, as close as I can in the line with the NFL. I love the NFL, it's important to me. And so I think for me and my specific career, I think that's important. Okay. But to answer your question about talent in general, no, I don't think it is. I think, you know, I remember reading an article, an interview with a publicist, you know, with a, it was a Hollywood publicist.

23:36This is gonna sound weird, but go with me for a second. And they were just talking about the fact that, that the talk shows, getting yourself on, you know, know, I'm making something up here, but, you know, getting yourself on, you know, a whatever, Good Morning America, right? Getting yourself on a show like that was, wasn't nearly the thing that, you know, it's, it's almost important, if not more so to get yourself on, you know, a chicken shop date, or whatever, you know, that's a YouTube show that, you know, this woman does where she interviews potential dates, and it's like a, you know, at a chicken shop, and it's like this massive thing.

24:10And so that was the example that publicists used. But yeah, I mean, we see it all the time that where there are people that have massive followings on TikTok, on Instagram, on YouTube, that have never been part of traditional broadcast television that are massively powerful. And you've seen it actually manifest itself a little bit in sports media now, right? I mean, I mean, Pat McAfee is an internet creation. I mean, like, right, he started on YouTube. He built on, you know, he was at Barstool, and then he did his own thing all on YouTube. And now he's on College Game Day. Now he's got his own show on ESPN.

24:51But, like, that's a guy from the internet. Dave Portnoy and Barstool, same thing. That's a guy who rose out of the internet, right? And now he's on, you know, Big Noon Saturday, right, on Fox. And so you're starting to see some of these, some of this talent that are purely internet driven. Now, you know, broadcast media, legacy media is trying to, hey, can you bring some of that over here? And so in terms of reach and especially, John, I will say for the younger, for younger fans, for younger fans, there are so many fans that consume the NBA through House of Highlights or through social media clips, right?

25:33There are so many fans. I did a panel. I did a panel last year with Josh Richards. And you and 95 % of the people listening to this are like, who the hell is Josh Richards? But I posted, who is Josh Richards and why is he on a panel with you? And I will tell you that my 14-year-old daughters, when they saw me on a panel with Josh Richards, freaked the hell out. How do you know Josh Richards? They see me with pictures all the time. They see me interviewing NFL stars. Could not care less. But they see me on a panel with Josh Richards, who has 25 million followers on TikTok and does a very popular podcast for Bars Tool called BFFs.

26:19And they freaked out. You'd have thought I'd been sitting next to Taylor Swift. right pick the pick the star that you want and so my point is is that there are so many people that john you and a lot of the people listening to this have no idea but that walking into the right mall or the right setting would be mobbed like they were taylor swift like they were the beatles that have 25 30 40 million followers on whether it's youtube or instagram or tiktok or what have you that are big stars on Snapchat. And those are the people, and you're starting to see some of them do creation around sports, right?

26:58I thought it was really interesting that NFL Sunday ticket, I'm just filibustering now, but go back and look at what the campaign was for NFL Sunday ticket on YouTube. And they had some, like Rich Eisen did some stuff, Rich Eisen has a big YouTube channel, credit to my buddy rich but it was mostly influencers it was mostly people that john you and most of the audience have never heard of but that have massive youtube following and that their audience skews younger and so um to me like it becomes more and more important and if you're a talent just being able to develop an audience find an audience um uh is is profitable and uh viable in any, you know, not just on broadcast networks.

27:47Like, you know, like I'll give you one last one that I'll say and then I'll shut up. I always joke, I get recognized all the time and people come up to me, you know, now it's like NBC. But back in the day it used to be, I love you on ESPN, I love you on ESPN. And I'd be like, oh, thanks so much. And, but what I wouldn't say to them is like, you know, I'm not on ESPN, right? When I was, seriously, I was never at my peak at ESPN, the most I would ever do on ESPN1 on the main channel is I would do about two minutes a week. I'd do like a 45-second hit on Monday Night Countdown and usually like, you know, an NFL Live hit or something like that or a SportsCenter hit.

28:23But it was like never more than five minutes a week on E1. Never. In my entire 15-year career. I did a three-hour show on ESPN2, but I had, you know, I have over 2 million followers on social media and I was in the ESPN fantasy app. And that's where people would recognize me from, from those two things. Never from, but they associated me with ESPN, right? And so I always joke about that. I love you on ESPN. Thank you so much. I think to myself, I'm not on ESPN. I'm actually not. I never have been. By the way, the kids are so great. You're talking about your children recognizing the influencers.