NWSL’s Big-League Breakout

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1:04Congratulations. You made the varsity the podcast. My name is John Aranda and I am Puck's sports correspondent and the host of this pod. And today we will be joined by Jessica Berman. Jessica has been commissioner of the NWSL. That's the professional women's soccer league for almost four years now. And in that time, she has overseen a tremendous amount of growth. Jessica is a sports business veteran. She worked as a lawyer for Proskauer Rose and the NHL before running the National Lacrosse League and then the NWSL. Now, strictly from a business standpoint, the Women's Soccer League is hugely successful.

1:44Need evidence? Look no further than Arthur Blank paying$165 million for an expansion team in Atlanta. So Jessica and I are going to talk about what the league needs to do to continue on its growth trajectory. We spoke from Washington, D.C. just before the Washington Spirit and Portland Thorns semifinal game, and we're a week away from the league's championship game, so there's a lot of excitement right now. But before we get to Jessica, today is Sunday, November 16th, and here's what I'm watching. And it all has to do with the deal that was announced Friday night between YouTube TV and Disney.

2:23I still need to do a lot of reporting on this. If you must know, I found out about the deal while at a Topgolf in King of Prussia, Pennsylvania. I was there with my daughter and a bunch of her college friends who were with their dads too, when my phone started blowing up right around 7 p.m. And I got to tell you, the knee-jerk reaction from a super majority of the texts that I received, that's from sports and media executives alike, is that this looks like a decisive win for YouTube TV. We still don't know anything about price, which could really sway things. But my buddy, Rich Greenfield, who's an analyst with Light Shed Partners, posted on X Friday night that it was, quote, an amazing win for YouTube TV subscribers.

3:08Now, a lot of the texts that I received pointed to Disney's own release as telling. The release featured five bullet points that it called key elements of the agreement. The top two pointed out that YouTube is going to carry all Disney networks from ABC and ESPN to Freeform and National Geographic. Plus, YouTube is going to make ESPN's new app available to all YouTube TV subscribers at no added cost. Those are basic parts of every deal that Disney has made over the past two years. No surprises there. It was the other bullet points that really raised eyebrows. YouTube will get, quote, a selection of live and on-demand programming from the ESPN app inside YouTube TV.

3:54That sounds like ingestion, folks, and it's something that the networks have been fighting tooth and nail. YouTube also is going to be able to create genre-specific packages. It didn't identify which networks would be in those packages. Could it be ESPN as part of a skinny sports package? We're going to see on that one. Now, as I reported in my private email on Thursday, this is a hugely important deal to the entire sports industry for all of the obvious reasons. Again, we don't know the money yet, But it looks to me like YouTube survived this battle in the throes of football season. If YouTube opted not to subsidize ESPN's right deals with this deal, the fear is that it's going to lead to declining rights fees across the industry.

4:44Historically, of course, networks have used these kinds of negotiations to persuade distributors to help them absorb the ever-increasing cost of sports rights. but YouTube TV is a different type of distributor. It's one that has a parent company that has a$3.4 trillion market cap. That's trillion with a T. And the fact is, while ESPN matters very deeply to Comcast, YouTube TV is immaterial to Google's stock price. If YouTube TV lost 3 million homes in this dispute, that's not gonna affect Google's stock price at all. So sports media better buckle up because these disputes could start to take a dark turn for the networks and the sports that they support.

5:31Okay, now let's get to Jessica Byrne. So Jessica, thank you very much for joining the podcast here. We're talking from D.C. ahead of a semifinal game. You are within a week of having the championship game. You are a month removed from congratulations signing a three-year extension to remain with the league, oversee the league. My first question to you is just, you're toward the end of this season. Give me a state of the league. How do things stand for you? Well, I think we've had an incredible season in 2025. And each of the last four seasons that I've had the good fortune of leading the league have been record-breaking.

6:21And this season was no different. Starting with television viewership in the second year of our four-year deal, we had linear growth in the regular season over 20 % year-over-year increase. And even more so when you look at the digital space, we know that NWSL fans are disproportionately younger and disproportionately female. And so those metrics are all really strong signs for the future of the league. We want young fans. We want the fans to be engaged that are representative of those strongest audiences. and everything that we're seeing is representative of that growth. And when we look at attendance, we set the record for the highest attended professional women's match, not just soccer, of any professional sport.

7:20This year in the Bay Area at Oracle Park with more than 40 ,000 people there, I was there in person and it was absolutely incredible. You really did feel like we were making history. And we're also really proud of the consistency of our growth, particularly in attendance. This is the third straight season that we have on average 10 ,000 plus fans per game. And so the consistency is really important. The trend lines are really important. And we're really excited that we're finishing the season strong. The playoffs have been incredible. Let's attack the media deal. You have games across several different networks and several different platforms.

8:08One of the common criticism, not just with NWSL, but with fans of all leagues, is that it becomes difficult to find games. You're one year into this media deal. How have you found that? What has been your viewpoint on spreading the games out across so many different partners? Well, I think it's a fair discussion to have. And it is, as you said, not unique to the NWSL. When you look at the landscape of sports media and where people consume content, there is more optionality, which in some ways is great. The challenge with that is that it's hard to figure out what to watch and where to watch. And there's so much choice in different streaming platforms and different channels and packages.

8:59And that's something that I think all live rights holders, including the NWSL, all sports properties are trying to lean into. And for us in particular, as a high growth property, as a challenger property, as a league that really wants to put ourselves in front of people who might not otherwise have had the opportunity to see or know of the NWSL, it's a huge growth opportunity. And we try to do everything we can to mitigate the unintended consequences of that by telling our fans exactly where, when and how to watch. We did make the decision, even though we have multiple partners, not to put our games behind a paywall.

9:45We did not want to create friction or a barrier for our avid fans, our current fans to come along with us. But I think our fan base is pretty incredible. They really do believe and understand that we want to force multiply the number of people who love and appreciate women's professional soccer. And in order to do that, we have to be everywhere. We have to be ubiquitous with the places and spaces where people consume content. And so it's part of our journey of growth. And, you know, we're bringing our fans along with us on that journey. Correct me if I'm wrong. You have two more years left on your media deals.

10:25When do you start negotiating the new ones? And what have you learned from the current media deals that's going to sort of inform you as you move on to these new ones? Well, I think any good business person thinks of the renewal the day you sign the initial agreement. So we started thinking about it the minute we were in this deal. We want to show up for our media partners as a partner that will lean into the opportunities to be innovative and creative, to be the kind of partner that says yes when they have big ideas and when there are challenges or problems to solve. And we're really proud of that.

11:10We're really proud of our relationship with all four of our media partners. We really think it's important to facilitate their collaboration and connectivity. And, you know, thinking back to the announcement of our deal in November of 2023, I remember sitting on stage at the championship and sitting side by side with each of ESPN, Amazon, CBS, and Scripps Ion. And I don't think that had happened in the history of sports. We really viewed ourselves as a catalyst to bring the industry together because we all are partners, essentially. We are in a five-way partnership and the rising tide will lift all boats.

11:51And so with that in mind, we've been working on the next media deal from the minute we signed, which was essentially November of 2023. And I think there are a lot of learnings. We know that the most effective way to market and promote our league is through our partners. No matter how much investment we make in promotion, the most important and effective thing we can do is help feed our media partners with storylines and content and ways that they can lean in to promote the games that they bought the rights for. And so we have a team of people who are essentially helping our media partners to make sure that they know about the most interesting and compelling stories around the league.

12:41And we've seen a lot of that come to life in all of our partners and also in the ways in which they're cross-promoting to each other. So what I take out of your answer is that you depend on the media partners to market, which is, you know, you sound exactly like Roger Goodell in saying that or Adam Silver, the head of any sports league. Um, the idea of taking all of your rights and putting them, uh, putting them with one, uh, media company, you, you, you lose that market, uh, that, that marketing power from all these other, you know, multinational, uh, uh, media companies. And that sounds to me like something that, that, uh, the NWSL that your league is not like ready to do yet.

13:34I think that's right, because these media companies also have editorial platforms. They have podcasts. They have news segments. They do morning shows. And all of these companies in and of themselves are interconnected. And so we have incentive alignment to make sure that our players, our stars, our business stories are being served up in a way that actually feeds the flywheel of fandom. and that that happens with each of our partners. And we didn't think it was in our best interest, at least not in 2023, to choose one. We really want to be everywhere. And if you don't discover us by flipping on your TV and landing on CBS, which is where our games are today, which is where our game is today, you might flip on ABC tomorrow and see us there.

14:29Or maybe you're watching ESPN SportsCenter and you'll see a segment about us or maybe you're watching the cbs morning show and and you see us there and at least for right now being in the semi-finals and the championship which is the pinnacle of our season um having them both involved is is super critical and throughout the regular season with scripps ion and with uh amazon prime they they've been able to really facilitate the marketability of this league through all of the other content that they have within their channels. You know, I think for your purposes, I'm the perfect person to be covering this whole space because I live in Washington, D.C., and I'm going to see you later today at the Spirit game.

15:17And here in D.C., the Washington Spirit, they have, you know, they get good crowds, of course at Audi Field. But there's just a certain buzz around the team that I haven't felt with the MLS team in town in a very long time. I mean, there's so much more buzz in my neighborhood with the Washington Spirit across gender, across races than with DC United. And so I'm able to see the promise that you're talking about here in this specific market. And you did mention, like you set a record for attendance and the attendance is still over as a benchmark. Attendance is down a little bit. And I was preparing for this interview.

16:06It's all my friends at Sportico said that, you know, discussed the WNBA and you as experiencing what they called growing pains at a certain aspect. Is that a fair characterization? Well, I think, you know, we're down a couple of percentage points. And I think when you look at a high growth property that is a challenger property, you have to look at the trend lines and you have to look at the ways in which there is growth sort of not just with the top line metrics, but all the other indicators. And some of the things that we look at is, you know, ensuring that more of our clubs are filling their stadiums.

16:48And so just by way of example, something that we think is a strong indicator of positive momentum, even with attendance, we look at the fact that in 2024, there were four teams that exceeded 10 ,000. And this year, there are six teams that consistently exceeded 10 ,000. And so look at averages, you look at medians, you look at on an individualized basis what the renewal rates are for season tickets. You look at all of the metrics within the community that show some of the other engagement. And yeah, you know, selling tickets is the rocket fuel behind sports leagues. And so we know certainly firsthand and all of our experience in other professional sports leagues, we know how important it is.

17:38And we're continuing to invest to support our clubs. We've launched our own club business performance function at the league office, which allows for us to share best practices and help all of our clubs to understand what's working in different markets and share ideas about how they could cultivate engagement with their communities and so you know i don't think there's a league that has experienced as much growth as we have in the last three and a half years and there's always going to be moments where there are different aspects of our of our metrics that we're looking at that you know might grow significantly year over year and then might have a softer growth year.

18:16But overall, we really see attendance is very strong. Based on all of the season ticket renewals that launched over the summer for next season, we're incredibly bullish that we're going to have a record-breaking year. And we see it even with Boston and Denver and what they're doing, having two new teams enter our league in 2026, that there is going to be a rising tide with expansion, which we know happens every time we bring new teams into the league. Jessica, let me take a quick break. And when we come back, I have just one more MLS related question that I want to throw out at you.

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19:39With more than 200 episodes, you can bend your way, decade by decade, defining event to defining event from the founding into the 20th century. Join me, Professor Greg Jackson, for History That Doesn't Suck, an Odyssey podcast. Available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Just recently, MLS decided to change its schedule to mirror what they're doing over in Europe. So the playing games basically through the winter. Have you given any thought to that? Something we've been looking at really since my first season here back in 2022. And I think it's something that MLS has been analyzing for more than a decade.

20:26You know, I think the soccer landscape is complicated. I spent most of my career working in other sports, as you know, and consider myself a newcomer to the global football world. Where did that, Jessica? The NHL. Yes. Although they were all indoors. This is the first sport I've worked in that is outdoors. And the weather and climate is an element that isn't really one that we have to worry about as much when you play indoors in an arena as my sports have in hockey and lacrosse, indoor lacrosse. But when we look at some of the global factors and pressure points that make it challenging for professional soccer leagues to operationalize their business plan.

21:13There are external forces that make it so that we're not in complete control of the things that matter most, which is our actual schedule when we play. And that's by virtue of the international match calendar that FIFA controls and dictates. And that decides essentially when players who are shared between the professional sports leagues and the national teams have to show up for international duty for things like the Euros or the Olympics or the World Cup or get to play for their professional club team, which are the professional sports leagues like MLS or NWSL or the Premier League or La Liga or any other league in the world.

21:57And it is true that in the global soccer world, it is more common to have a what we call fall to spring calendar. And that just has allowed, I think, us to really think about what is the best thing for our league. And obviously, we've been following and work closely with MLS. We have a bunch of shared owners, so it will have a direct impact on us. and we'll continue to analyze what is the best for us at the NWSL. You know, my knee-jerk reaction to that is, is that if you separate from the MLS, you potentially could get more Saturday night games or you could potentially get better, I'm going to talk in media terms, but better windows for your teams to play in their stadiums because the stadium would free up a lot more, right?

22:56Yeah, I think there's definitely pros and cons, like most hard decisions, for us being aligned with Major League Soccer and for us to be counter cyclical to Major League Soccer. And so now that they have made their decision, which has been rumored and speculated for some time now, we'll analyze this new set of circumstances and make the decision that we think sets us up for success. Do you have any timetable on that or is that just something that is always sort of out there? Well, I think given how important it is, it's probably always something that we're monitoring, but we are focusing on it in the, what I would say, short to medium term, particularly given this change from MLS.

23:45We do have to think strategically about our schedule process, and we share a lot of buildings with Major League Soccer, so how and when we're going to be able to get availability in order to make a strategic schedule both with our teams and with our media partners is going to be really important and that work is underway. Jessica you have overseen really such a tremendous growth in in the nwsl it's the main reason why they there was a no pushback to to having you re-up for three more years. How do you continue to grow? Like where and how beyond sort of expansion and adding new teams do you see the NWSL growing?

24:34Well, I definitely, as you said, there's definitely expansion on the horizon. And we had a big announcement this month with Atlanta coming into the NWSL for Team 17 in 2028. But we also know that the media deals that we signed back in 2023 were for four years. So that brings us from 24, 25, 26 and 27. So our next media deal is just around the corner. And where and when and how our current and prospective fans can watch our games is the most important decision that we make at the league office. And so that's going to be a huge moment for us and all eyes and attention and strategic work is on making sure that we are set up for success as we go into those discussions.

25:27and we feel like there's tremendous momentum and tailwinds, not just by virtue of the success we've had in just three short years, but also when you look at the momentum of soccer globally and in this country specifically, we're going to have the Men's World Cup here in 2026. We're going to have the Women's World Cup in Brazil, which we know is on a time zone friendly time so that our fans will be able to watch the best players in the world play, many of whom, most of whom actually play in our league. And we also know that the U.S. is going to be host for the Women's World Cup in 2031. And so with those milestones on the horizon, we believe that our highest growth years are ahead of us.

26:15And it's our job to make sure that we're prepared to meet the moment. How do you plan to work with the Men's World Cup? I don't want to sound naive, but I was surprised to hear you mention the Men's World Cup. I know chronologically it comes first, but over the women in Brazil and then in the United States. Yeah, we actually think the Men's World Cup is extremely relevant to the NWSL. We know that American soccer fans love greatness and celebrate elite play, elite athleticism. And when you think of soccer and you think of greatness in America, you think of women first. And so the Men's World Cup is going to be here in the U.S.

26:59this next year. And there's going to be an insatiable appetite for great soccer. And we see the through line between that and the NWSL. So as American fans are discovering this incredibly beautiful global game that the rest of the world is in love with, We know that there will be an opportunity for them to open their aperture to professional soccer. And we think the NWSL is the place where they will land. And we want to make sure that we're in the cultural zeitgeist this summer. and that as they think about soccer and their daily life beyond the four-year life cycle of a World Cup, that they understand and know that they'll be in a position to celebrate and enjoy and become a fan of professional soccer through women's soccer.

27:51One of the things that I think you've done well and all successfully do well is the promotion of stars um and and you you have some stars that are starting to you know step out and sort of uh you know cross over a little bit uh is is there anything that is or i guess like my question is what can you do to to help sort of make that happen more uh more um because it seems like something that happens organically as opposed to something that that the you know if i if i know a corporation is trying to push this on me i might i might you know resist it a little bit more what can the league do to sort of promote that?

28:31Yeah, I think there's a lot we could do both directly and indirectly. When I think about what we can do directly, it's obviously identifying those players that are incredible both on and off the field in terms of their stories, in terms of their performance, and feature them when we're promoting our games, when we're talking about the league, so that people have an opportunity to continue to dive deeper into who these players are as people. make sure our broadcast partners know who we believe are the next generation of stars, and make sure that we're connecting those same players to league sponsors so that they're appearing in commercials and they're just becoming sort of everywhere and ubiquitous with the sport.

29:19So that's sort of the direct things that we could do. I think indirectly, we really want to be a league that helps to facilitate our players who want to lean in. And we've already begun to pilot some initiatives where we're serving content directly to the players and helping them craft their stories, that we're providing counsel and guidance to those who really want to get out there. That's a choice, by the way. Not every player is interested in doing that stuff off the field, and that's okay. But for the ones who raise their hand and say, we see the value or I see the value, in ensuring that I am the face of my team or I want to be one of the faces of this league.

30:02We want to meet them at that moment and make sure that they have the tools and the resources and the confidence to know that we're behind them and that we can help to facilitate that and make sure that they understand the guardrails and that there are safety mechanisms in place for them because we also know that when you put yourself out there that it comes with some challenges and it's our job to make sure that they understand and know that and make an informed choice, but then also know that we'll support them if there are challenges. Jessica, let me take one more quick break. I want to come back.