Wimbledon’s Grass is Always Greener

0:05Congratulations! You made the Varsity Podcast. My name is Jon O 'Ran, and I am Puck's sports correspondent and host of this pod. And today, Jon Wertheim joins a Varsity live from Wimbledon. Jon, of course, is a senior writer for Sports Illustrated and a 60 Minutes correspondent, and I have been eager to get him on this pod so that we can talk about the state of tennis. You really won't find a smarter voice on this topic. But before we get to John, today is Sunday, July 5th. Happy 4th, everybody. Here's what I'm watching. It's the World Cup, like everyone else. Take these stats in. For the week of June 22nd, World Cup games made up 24 out of the 25 most-watched sports shows on television, according to Nielsen.

0:5418 of those were on Fox, 6 were on Telemundo. The only non-World Cup event that landed in the top 25? NBC carried a PGA Tour event from Connecticut that finished 21st. Everything else? Soccer. Turkey, USA, a match that was essentially meaningless? 17 million viewers. Amazing. Colombia, Portugal, Saturday afternoon, 0-0 tie, or sorry, 0-0 draw. Second most viewed soccer match of the week. 9.2 million viewers. is just incredible. Look, we all know that the World Cup soccer is popular. There's no surprise there. But I've been so intrigued at how Fox is using that popularity to bolster other sports.

1:38Back on June 21st, Fox used a Spain-Saudi Arabia game as a lead-in to its IndyCar race from Wisconsin. Well, that IndyCar race, it ended up more than doubling the audience that watched the same race the previous year. We saw it again yesterday on July 4th, too. Fox used Paraguay, France, the round of 16 game as a lead into its baseball coverage. It hosted a show from Philly's Independence Hall. After all, it is July 4th. Anyway, that's the kind of game within a game that really interests me. As for now, let's get to John Wertheim. John Wertheim, first of all, Thank you very much for joining us.

2:17You're over in England. You're in Wimbledon. We are talking. We're taping this on Thursday night. And my first question for you, I want you to take me to Wednesday night, one of the biggest wins in U.S. men's soccer history. And you're in sort of the birthplace of soccer. But the pub's all closed at 11. Kickoff over there, I think, was at 1 a.m., right? Did you watch? How did you watch? Where did you go? Take me through what it was like being an expat in London when the U.S. Men's National Team was playing. Oh, John, we were doing so well, then you had to go there. Nice to be with you. I have to confess, I'm a real sleep wimp.

3:08We're grinding it pretty good. So the idea, I can tell you everything about, you know, it was like the UK play. It's funny because at Wimbledon, they actually have a rule that you're not allowed to show non-tennis on the public screens. But that has, as you can imagine, this 2026, that doesn't stop people from watching. So you have all these really strange moments at the tennis where a player would do something totally unremarkable and everybody would groan in unison. And the player is like, I don't know, I just missed a backhand. What's the big deal? And then he realized, like, half the fans were watching England play on their phone.

3:45Yeah, 1 a.m. was just brutal on my schedule. So I don't know. I think I've got to be a little bit better about that. But if you're giving me truth serum, I will tell you that after Belgium, I went to bed and I missed the U.S. last night. Sorry. Well, they ended up winning, in case you wanted to know. So the big story, you are there to cover tennis. And the big story, certainly for an American sports fan or tennis fan, is Serena coming back and playing in the first round. What was that like? It appeared to be, watching it here, almost like an exhibition, almost like a circus of sorts. Kind of like somebody coming in.

4:32You were in the stadium. You were there. What was it like for you? I would say it was like an exhibition, a circus of sorts. You nailed it. Honestly, it was really strange. I mean, there had been so much buildup. This is this towering champion. And I think, you know, she looked pretty good. She played doubles in June and actually looked pretty good. And I think sort of, you know, visions of a 24th major danced in people's heads. And it's the great Serena Williams. and it seems crazy at age 44 with zero match play four years removed from her last singles match that she would try this but there she was and honestly it kind of yeah i i'm not even sure what to think like it wasn't an it wasn't an abject embarrassment right i mean she played it went to three effectively at times it wasn't serene yeah i was it was three sets i mean the truth is she played you know she probably had one of the best draws in the tournament i mean the player she faced had lost 13 of her last 14 matches and the weight of the occasion.

5:35You're at center court, it's Wimbledon, Serena Williams on the other side of the net. She's 20 years old. I mean, it couldn't have done better in terms of a draw. And Serena looked okay at times. She looked less than okay at other times. I think you could spin this either way. I mean, it's either great, Serena Williams is back and she's competing and she just needs more match play, or it's 44 years old. She didn't win. And this was a fun experiment. Go back to retirement. It was a little bit unsatisfying. And then, unfortunately, she sort of blew off her media obligations. So no one really could ask her how she was feeling or what she felt out there and have this kind of back and forth.

6:14It does look, as we speak on Thursday, as though she will play tennis. She will play doubles with Venus. But there was some doubt about that. You know, it was a great spectacle. Well, one thing I took away from this is there's a huge difference between individual sports and team sports. And LeBron can pick his team. And if he can do his load management, he can take himself out. He doesn't have to play at the start of the quarters. In tennis, it's you. You're out there alone. You're all exposed. I mean, Sarita was either going to win or she was going to lose. It wasn't like she was going to play 26 minutes and take herself out when her back started acting up.

6:50I give her credit for courage, but I'm not sure Serena's going to win that 24th major, put it that way. You know, the thing that struck me, too, is certainly the most famous women's tennis player, most successful women's tennis player of the 2000s, without question, I would say. we're going to talk later about the documentary that you're involved in with Chris Averton, Martina Navratilova, of course. But, you know, to me, just sort of like all the protests over equal play that we saw in Roland Garros and the start of the protests over equal play that we saw here in Wimbledon, just having such a towering figure actually show up and play, kind of, to me, that focused some attention on the discrepancy there, no?

7:51Yeah, I mean, just to be clear, the protest was over, I mean, equal pay is, that's been settled. Everyone gets the same. The protest was over, it's sort of an NBA typical collective bargaining agreement, that the protest was over how much pay the players were going to get. So men and women get the same amount. They should get the same amount. They all play at the same event. this was the men and women coming together, which is not common in this sport, saying to these big tournaments, hey, wait a second, you guys are minting money and we're only getting 14 % of gross revenue? That can't be right.

8:25So this protest was, it wasn't sort of over equal pay men versus women, it was over a fair wage in terms of how much money these major tournaments that are just absolute cash cows are making relative to the prize money there. It's a little bit of an apples and oranges comparison, but you think about the NBA essentially being a pie split 50-50. This is 1486. So this protest, I'll tell you a funny story, by the way, but yeah, the protest at Roland Garrison here at Wimbledon was just about players wanting more of the gross revenue or the profits of these wildly successful major tennis tournaments.

9:06Come on, you referenced the funny story. When you hear the funny story, John. All right. So I don't, you know, whatever. This is between us. Just kidding. So listen to this, John. You'll appreciate this. As a sports business reporter, you will appreciate this. In all of these negotiations, you look for pain points. Wimbledon actually went up this year 20 % in their prize money year over year and said to the players, you know, look, we paid, you know, whatever it was. that I don't have in front of me, but you know,$62 million in purses. This year, we're going to 74, something like that. 20 % year-over-year increase.

9:41And the players still decided to protest and do this media boycott. And the tournament was livid. The phrase they gave me for publication was surprised and disappointed. But I can tell you, there was far more intensity to the outrage. So Wimbledon was absolutely furious. We gave you guys a 20 % year-over-year increase and you're still going to protest um so what did wimbledon do they yanked the players comp tickets and you know there are millions and millions of dollars are earmarked to complimentary tickets i mean there are 256 players from the singles draw and they're doubles players they're all the the tournament basically yanked the comp tickets and people showed up and said you know i'm here to watch my daughter play or i'm with a brand and i'm here to watch my pair and they said oh, sorry, we don't have tickets for the players earmarked anymore.

10:29That was on Sunday. That caused chaos. And suddenly, by Sunday night, there was a statement saying, we've had productive negotiations, and we are calling off our protests. We're all good. So it's like the straights of Hormuz of professional tennis. They found the pain point. So Wimbledon's response to this player protest to yank their comp tickets is what essentially ended this protest. And I think that that did not go unnoticed by other tournaments. But it's interesting what what levers you can pull. And when Wimbledon yanked the comp tickets, that that was what spurred action. Don't mess with my free tickets, John.

11:11My gosh, I totally get that. Exactly. All right. So in the in the players defense, Wimbledon increased it by 20 percent. So it went from what, 14 to 16 percent. I like it. What is like what? No, I mean, you've hit on the issue. I mean, you hit on the issue, which is it went from like 14 to 14.4%. So 20 % seems like. Well, no, I mean, it seems like a big increase. The 20 % seems like a big increase, but the players are saying, wait a second, this is still minuscule if we frame this as a function of gross revenue. So, I mean, these events are wildly successful, and there's hospitality, and there's, I mean, I don't know if you've been to the U.S.

11:55Open, and they, you know, the amount of revenue generated from Honeydeuce, before we talk about ESPN's deal or sell a single suite or a single club seat, the revenue from the Honeydeuce-branded signature drink go a long way towards playing the player's prize money. So, the 20 % sounds like a pretty, you know, who among us wouldn't want a 20 % year-over-year raise. But as a function of gross revenue, it still is hovering in the 14s. And I think that's why the players are unhappy. The tournament's response, of course, is A, you know, the market bears with the market bears. People come to Wimbledon, and if John O 'Ran played John Wertheim, people still would put it on their bucket list.

12:38It's as much about Wimbledon and the experience we've built here as we should try that, by the way. the players are probably not going to ever have any sort of strike or labor stoppage i mean that the top players need it for their endorsements the bottom players need it because if you lose in the first round you still get a hundred thousand dollars um you'd like to think there's a creative solution here it's a really interesting sort of textbook labor management industrial relations case but the tournaments are basically saying we're not going to negotiate against ourselves, if you guys are still going to play, we're not going to do anything crazy with our wages.

13:14And the players are saying, wait a second here, the fans are coming to see us and 86 cents of every dollar is going to sources other than us. That's not right. So the US Open is next. We'll see what they do. But these four majors are wildly successful. They're wildly profitable. They do have to reinvest some of their profits into tennis development and the facilities upgrade and debt service. But I do think most people look at this and say 14 percent is a pretty low slice of the gross revenue pie. By the way, if it's you versus me, we have to use the McEnroe rackets from like the late 70s, early 80s.

13:54You know, the small wooden ones. I'm in. But I do think that speaks. So, look, pro player, you want them to get as much money as they can. The careers aren't that long. However, you know, NBC back in the 70s marketed the breakfast at Wimbledon, the whole idea of waking up on a summer weekend and tuning in to see the grass courts. And I think Roland Garros and the clay and you mentioned the honeydews. I mean, I know so many people that go to the U.S. Open and don't even see a lick of tennis because they're just kind of walking around and doing everything. So I think that the tournaments, these major tournaments, do have a case to make of, you know, we could get anybody in here to play and, you know, people are going to come and see it.

14:44Although 14 % does sound like, you know, just drastically low. Yeah, I mean, honestly, I think you and I could probably sit down and come up with a creative model. And maybe there's a small equity stake that goes to the players or above a certain threshold. We start to share in the upside. I mean, you'd like to think there's a creative solution here. But I keep thinking, we're coming out of this era where you had Rafa Nadal and Roger Federer and Serena and Djokovic. That would have been the time for the players to strike. but right now, in many ways, it's a thoroughly thriving sport and it's global and it's men and women.

15:20It's got plenty of virtues going for it, but I'm not sure. Carlos Alcaraz is this dynamic champion who won the Australian Open just a few months ago, young, handsome, Spaniard. He's not here. He has a wrist injury. And I don't think it's really impacted this event all that much. It's exactly what you said. These events have turned into Coachella. and you're right. I mean, a staggering number of people go to these and there's a band and you have a drink and you're in here, you're up on the hill and in the U.S. Open, you're going to the food court and roaming around. The matches in the tennis are almost, you know, it's like the sideshow at Coachella or at Lollapalooza.

16:00And I think that probably takes away some of the players' leverage. so you you've covered this for for such a long time what's your best guess how does it how does this end how much more would do these tournaments give up because certainly certainly there's a number there that that they're going to have to meet you know larry scott remember of uh of pac-12 formerly the pac-12 commissioner of course this is his baby he is sort of wrangling these players and is the lead negotiator. And one of his points is we don't just want to be employees and we don't just want to sort of have a wage that goes up a little bit every year.

16:42We want some kind of stake in the upside. And these events are printing money and we want to share in that growth. So I have to think there's a creative model. You bring in a forensic accountant, you figure out a way so that every dollar past a certain threshold gets split 80-20, something like that and you you lock in these prize money increases but i think what the players really want is some sort of revenue sharing you know they want they essentially they want an equity stake in these big tournaments and i'm not sure the tournaments are inclined to do that so i you'd like to think that there's a solution here reasonable people can reach reasonable conclusions but it's tennis so uh all bets are off yeah they want what college kids are getting now for goodness sakes in football and basketball.

17:31They're getting, you know, it seems that that's out there as well.

17:42There is a documentary that you are involved with on Martina Navratilova and Chris Everett, which I will admit I haven't seen yet, but it is on my list because I grew up watching the two of them play. I mean, it seemed to almost every single final, major final, like it was one versus the other. How did you come up with, actually, I think it's pretty easy to come up with the idea because if you're of a certain age, like you did it. How did you convince them to partake in this? um yeah it's it's a great you know i don't know sally jenkins wrote a story um on the two of them for the washington post the yeah it was a great washington post yeah it's a great story i wish um well it's in the beleaguered national you know the beleaguered washington post uh sports department but um yeah sally wrote a great story and that came out i think during in Wimbledon like three years ago.

18:44And I work with Martina at Tennis Channel and Chris is a dear friend. And he sort of said, listen, this is a story that you're comfortable telling. This story with Sally came out great. We all, we know each other, we trust each other. No one's gonna do anything that they're not comfortable with. And I think there was sort of a level of comfort and there was a realization, especially, I mean, one of the, spoiler alert, but part of the story is about this rivalry, this Texcord rivalry they had, but a lot of it is also about this sort of unfortunately they both had to confront cancer and their own mortality and they've become very close because of this tennis relationship that started in the 70s but also because of what they both had to deal with and i think um there was a level of comfort there i think they were both happy with how sally's piece came out they're great together and it just it's one of those things that just everything lined up at the right time And I think I encourage you to watch it.

19:45It, you know, it wasn't always so easy to do. And, you know, unfortunately, you know, Chris has gotten an unfortunate diagnosis here recently. She's not here at Wimbledon. But I think, you know, I don't want to put words in her mouth. I think they're happy they did it. I think we're all really happy with how it turned. I mean, this wasn't a quickie. This was like a three-year journey. This wasn't, you know, a bump and run. But I think we're all really happy with how it turned out. What is a story that you wanted to tell? I think one thing that's always interested me is this sort of if sports are competition, rivalry is like competition.

20:28I'm not going to say to fall back on steroids, but it's accelerated competition. It's sort of, you know, it's supercharged competition. And rivalry just does something different. And I think Chris and Martina reached a conclusion independently very early that, okay, Chris was going to rob Martina of a few majors and Martina was going to rob Chrissy of a few majors. And if the other one hadn't existed, they probably would have won more, but maybe not because they made each other better and they made each other innovate and they pushed each other and there was a benchmark and there was always someone to measure yourself against.

21:02And I think rivalry really had this sort of multiplier effect for both of them. And then I think they also both realized that the person on the other side of that's the only person in the world that really understands what I'm going through. I think they realized for all the surface contrasts and the, you know, East versus West and hard and soft and all the sort of sloppy, you know, compare and contrast. They recognized they were actually a lot more similar than they were often portrayed as being. and they it sort of started out as you know we respect each other as competitors and then it was like hey wait we like each other and now at the days of life they both sort of have had their battles with cancer and they happen to live very close together there's a real sisterhood and it's just an extraordinary you know you're playing in a wimbledon final in the 80s you're playing in super saturday at the u.s open in 1984 you don't stop to think hey listen 42 years later when we're both looking at our scans, I'm going to be the one to hold Chris's hand or Chris is going to bring me, you know, we have one scene where Martina brings Chris soup during one of her chemo sessions.

22:10And you don't really think about that when you're in your 20s and 30s and you're this global sports star, but they've had this long, durable, poignant, sometimes up and down relationship that sort of went so far beyond the usual sort of dimensions of rival. I mean, God bless Larry and Magic and Jack and Arnie and everybody. I don't think they were taking soup to each other's chemo sessions. I mean, it's really just an extraordinary relationship for 50 years now. I want to stick with Martina and Chris because one of the themes that I've been covering for, if I'm going to be honest, for the last three years, even though probably for the last five to ten years, is the growth of women's sports.

22:53And you're seeing the WNBA, you know, and they're starting to pay their players now. They're starting to really see some headwinds in terms of TV ratings, in terms of sponsorship. You're seeing it with other team sports. But I go back to, you know, the 80s, Billie Jean King even in the 70s. Tennis has seemed to always have, and I was going to go this with the Serena route at first, But they've always seemed to have really popular women tennis players that in many cases, I would argue that Chris and Martina were more popular than any of the men's players at the time, or certainly competing with them at the time.

23:38But this newfound sort of, you know, P.E. money, this newfound sort of investment into women's sports, it doesn't seem to be hitting to my to what the way I view it, tennis in the same way that it's hitting some of these other sports, even though it's it's a part of tennis's history. Has professional tennis sort of I don't want to say missed the boat. What's the question I'm trying to ask here? You ask questions for it. I thought about this a lot. No, it's a great question. I've thought about this a lot. I mean, one of the things I can't figure out is where is tennis in this discussion? I mean, there are players that casual fans have never heard of that will make more money than Kingland Clark.

24:22I mean, we all love the WNBA. We all love the wage increases and the new salary structure. But, I mean, tennis is light years ahead. I mean, there are women who win one tournament and make$5 million. So one of my questions is where is tennis in this discussion about the women's sports rocket ship here? I don't know if I have it in front of me. It was 79 women's tennis players, something like that, made more than a million dollars last year. I mean, women's tennis is doing great. I think something like nine of the top highest paid athletes. So Coco Gauff's going to make more than$30 million this year.

24:59I'm always sort of like where's women's tennis in this discussion of the women's sports rocket ship? But I do think one point I would make is that there's a huge difference. Again, this is a theme of our podcast, between individual sports and team sports. And the problem, I think, with women's tennis is that the money is going to the players and not necessarily the WTA, right? I mean, it's not as though there are billions of dollars in media rights deals that are being parked with the WTA. It's if you have money to spend, you're going to put it on Coco Gauff and Naomi Osaka and then Serena Williams.

25:34And the individual players will make more money in revenue than the tour itself. And that's great if you're Coco Gauff. And that's a bit of a problem if you're sort of part of the infrastructure. But it's actually it's a really fascinating topic is women's tennis, I think, in a lot of respects is doing great. I mean, the players are making millions and millions and millions of dollars. I mean, again, I'm not just talking about the top tier stars. I mean, the number 20 ranked tennis player will make far more money this year than the highest paid WNBA player. So let me interrupt you for a second.

26:12The issue is just there's no media. Where are they making the money from? Is it from appearance fees? Is it from winning tournaments? Is it from sponsorships? It certainly doesn't appear to be coming from the traditional sports media companies or media rights deals or big sponsorship deals that cover the entire WTA. Right. I mean, some of it is just – you can lose in the first round and you'll make six figures. So you play four majors and you've got close to a half a million dollars in income without winning a match. the U.S. Open winner will make$5 million. The winner of the WTA finals will make north of$5 million.

26:56I mean, there's a lot of money in prize money. And then for a select few players, there's some exhibitions, but these are global superstars. A lot of times they have social media followings. I mean, look at a player like Naomi Osaka. And yes, it's Nike and the racket sponsor, but it's also, you know, it's Sweet Greens and it's Workplace. And it's, you know, you look at the patches that some of these players have. You know, the player who's sponsored by Palantir. These players, men and women, are really popular with big global brands. And on top of that, the top players can make eight figures in prize money.

27:37So if you are a top tennis player, you live very, very well. And if you're ranked number 40, you'll still make seven figures. You're not going to have a huge deal with Hugo Boss or, you know, with JP Morgan. But it's very easy. You're number 40. You're going to make seven figures in prize money and then play a few exhibitions and maybe have a couple patch deals and get a little rankings bonus. And you're making multiple millions of dollars and you don't have to be a star. So let's take the PGA Tour as an example, another sort of individual sport. Brian Rollup, the new CEO over there, has decided that the best way to move forward is to sort of cull the number of tournaments that they do and make each one sort of, you know, more profitable, more meaningful anyway.

28:31I'm using the words of business, more profitable. From listening to your answer, it seems like tennis players would resist culling the number of tournaments because the tournaments are such big moneymakers for them. Yeah, I mean, it's one of the issues with tennis. The top players wish they had to play fewer tournaments. They're tired. They're getting schlepped around the world. They get injured. And that doesn't have sort of unanimity because the tier below them wants more opportunities to play. So I think the other advantage of golf in particular is just much more mainstream from a governance standpoint.