Windhorst’s NBA State of Play

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1:05Congratulations! You made the varsity of the podcast. My name is John O 'Ran and I am Puck's sports correspondent and the host of this pod. And today, we are joined by ESPN's Brian Windhorse, one of the premier reporters covering the NBA. Windhorse became known as the guy who covered LeBron James. They're both from Akron. Brian covered LeBron's calves when he was a reporter for the Cleveland Plain Dealer. Then he moved over to ESPN in 2010, 16 years ago. Wow. Well, Brian just resigned with the ESPN, so he's not going anywhere. He hosts a podcast, ESPN Hoop Collective, and he's a regular contributor on ESPN's NBA Today studio show.

1:46But before we get to Brian, today is Wednesday, December 17th, and here's what I'm watching. NFL ratings. Every now and then I like to focus in on local NFL team ratings because some of the stories in these local markets are so great. For the most part, when a team is doing well and winning, ratings go up. And when they lose, ratings drop. Obvious, right? That's why I was not surprised in the least to see the Patriots games in the Boston market are up by 34 % over last year, the biggest increase in all of the NFL. The Patriots have had a really good season so far with a 10-game winning streak, of course ratings are going to be up.

2:23And you won't be shocked to learn that the terrible Jets are at the bottom of that list. Their game ratings are down 29 % in New York, the biggest drop in all of football. The Jets are 3-11, so again, obvious, right? But there are a couple of numbers on this list, which goes through Week 12, that I found particularly interesting. Overall, 14 teams posted increases, 17 saw drops. The commanders were flat. In New York, while the Jets had the biggest decline, the Giants, who actually have an even worse record than the Jets, are showing a 20 % increase. Now that's surprising. It's probably linked to the Jets being down so much.

3:05They play simultaneously a lot. So if Jets' interest has fallen apart, some of that has to flow to the Giants' games. Another rating that popped out at me is in Las Vegas, And that's where the Raiders have the NFL's smallest number of local viewers, only 82 ,000 viewers. It's a legitimate question to ask whether Raiders have more fans in L.A. and San Francisco than they do in Vegas. Anyway, I love diving into these numbers a couple of times a year. I find it's always a good snapshot. But now, let's get to ESPN's Brian Windhorst. Behind the scenes a little bit. And before we came on, I was having a conversation with Brian Windhorst.

3:42and I asked him just, it's like the NBA cup, the final is Tuesday night, right? And that Brian is the problem right now with the NBA cup. I actually am a fan of the NBA cup. I think that the, the players are playing harder than they normally would in November and December games. The courts make it a little, I'm not a big fan of the courts, but it gives it sort of a, a bigger game feel. Most people that I talk to in the business seems to like the NBA Cup. But I will tell you that friends of mine who are not in the business, they just don't really know what it is. It's a couple of years old now.

4:30You've been covering it from its inception. Rate it right now. What is the NBA Cup to you?

4:37Brian Windhorst:Yeah, I think the idea is really smart, and I like the idea. I think the execution could be better, and I think the NBA off the record would admit that, and I think that's what they're going to work on. Just in case anybody thinks it's not successful, I'm going to tell you that the NBA Cup has been sold to Amazon for this year and 10 more years. So number one, it got what they wanted, which was an extra property, and secondly, they've already sold it, so it's not going anywhere. The way it looks will be different, I think. If they consulted me on what they should do, they won't. But I think it needs to be later in the calendar.

5:18Brian Windhorst:The reason they put it in this spot, John, was because their analysis was that the casual fan doesn't pay attention to the NBA really until later in the season, Christmas time or after, basically when football season ends. and this was designed as a way to draw in that casual fan more. And I'm not sure it's working. I think if your team is in it, I think you care. And they've actually gotten some good matchups, and I could go on and on here about the value of it for the teams. But from a business perspective, the NBA has one of the things that is on the horizon for them to manage. If the NFL season gets a week added on and they add the 18th game, and by the way, I don't, can, maybe you can just, just as a, as a puck subscriber, maybe you can, I can just ask you, why does there have to be an 18th game?

6:12Brian Windhorst:Why can't they just add a second by week and generate an 18th week? Why, why does there have to be an 18th game? I don't. The amount of money, Brian, that, that they get for, for these packages, the NFL, they're about to reopen the deal. The NBA was so smart with their deal. They got in, they got their deal done. And this NFL deal, they're going to take so much money out of the sports media rights marketplace. And by adding one more game, they can create how many new packages and sell them to these. Right, but can't they do that by just adding one more week of television content? Like there's certain windows.

6:54Brian Windhorst:If you add another Thursday, and if you do it late in the year, you can add another Thursday window, two more Saturday windows, three more Sunday windows, and a Monday window. Okay, maybe you don't have Monday the last week of the season. Why can't they just be satisfied with adding the extra windows? I don't understand why there has to be an extra game. But that's another story for another day. I'll continue to read you about it. If slash when that happens and there's an 18th week of the regular season, The Super Bowl will end up on President's Day weekend, which is probably a good idea, quite frankly, to have the day after the Super Bowl be a holiday.

7:33Brian Windhorst:But that would run smack into the All-Star game, the NBA All-Star game, which is obviously struggling in terms of engagement, would be taken over. And so what is the NBA going to do if that happens? And one of the things that I have espoused, And this is not all my idea. And I can't give the credit to the people who told me because they work in the league. But I like this concept. If you're looking to enhance the NBA Cup and you're also looking to deal with an all-star game that needs some resuscitation, plus the fact that the NFL is going to move in on your weekend, because I don't think you really can go much later on the NBA all-star game because you're already at like 60-ish percent into the season, maybe even 65%, I don't know.

8:23Pretty late in the schedule.

8:27Brian Windhorst:That would leave one weekend, and that would be the weekend between the championship games and the Super Bowl. That is the first truly dead football weekend from August to the Super Bowl is that weekend. So I would move into that weekend, and I would do the NBA Cup and the All-Star in the same weekend in the same venue. Because one of the things that they're having... When you say NBA Cup, you're speaking about the semis in the final? Yeah, well, yeah. Good question. So right now, when the NBA Cup first started, they played the semis on Thursday, and then they played the final on Saturday. And they picked the first weekend after the college football championship games to do it, which is what they still do.

9:15Brian Windhorst:And because that Saturday, basically you've got army Navy and, and, you know, that's about it. And so they, they picked that for a reason. The problem was that Thursday generated tough, tough situation to play the game at two o 'clock on a Thursday in Vegas or whatever it was. I can tell you it was at that first game. It was Indiana versus Milwaukee, I think. It was tough. Wait, didn't LeBron win on the first one? Yes, but that was 5 o 'clock on that Thursday. There were two semifinals. This is what's worrying me, John. You were there. I saw you there. I literally was there, yes. For both games, in fact.

10:07Brian Windhorst:This was not in 2004. So it's all worrisome. So they recognized that that wasn't going to work, especially since people didn't know who the NBA was going to be in the NBA Cup until relatively close. And there was no, even the Laker fans who could very easily were populated in Vegas anywhere could get to Vegas. They had a hard time getting to Vegas on a Thursday in December for a five o 'clock game. So they changed the schedule and put the semifinals on the Saturday. and then they put the final on Tuesday to get out of the way of football, to get out of the way of Thursday night football, to get out of the way of Sunday football and Monday football because ESPN was involved in the broadcast at the time and they certainly didn't want to get in the way of their own broadcast.

10:53Brian Windhorst:And so now we have this other problem, which is now we have the semifinals on a Saturday. Okay, it's better to plan and the attendance, but you have to wait two whole days, you know, two off days. It's not ideal. And the teams that are in it are in Vegas for six days. So the NBA starting next year is, I believe, it's not finalized, is going to break the semifinals and final apart. And I think they're going to play the semifinals. I don't know this for 100 % sure. For all the people who are going to aggregate me, this is not a report, okay? I believe this is what's under discussion as a concept.

11:35Brian Windhorst:I think the concept that is being discussed would be to play the semifinals at the team sites and then to play the final at a neutral site, which will vary. And this has been reported. I'm not going out over my skis here. Not Las Vegas, outside of Las Vegas. And where would that be? I don't know. There's ideas. I don't know where it'll be. I have a pretty good idea it's not going to be in T-Mobile Arena in Las Vegas. So what I am proposing, and again, this is not all me. This is other people who have thought this, is potentially doing All-Star Weekend and the NBA Cup at the same time, on the same weekend, where you would potentially play the final on Saturday, you know, around the events, and then you would play the All-Star Game on Sunday.

12:26Brian Windhorst:Now, your immediate thing is you're going to say, what about the all-stars who will play in the cup final? We'll figure it out. You know, you wouldn't maybe play in both. You could be an all-star, and if you were in the cup final, you wouldn't play in the all-star game or whatever. You could wave your hand or whatever to the crowd. I'm not worried about that, but I like the idea of being able to say, come to All-Star Weekend, and you can also go to the NBA Cup. And if you wanted to even break it into a three-day thing and you wanted to play the NBA Cup on Friday and then you wanted to play the all, still have your Saturday night, which I think Saturday night is in trouble.

13:04Brian Windhorst:You know, the slam dunk contest is tough to watch. But I would do it all on Saturday, Sunday, but whatever. That would be my suggestion there. But the reason I like the idea, John, is that I think it does, I think there's a benefit to the teams because we have seen teams that make runs in the NBA Cup have material benefits later in the season. The first year, for example, the Pacers made an unexpected run in the NBA Cup to the final. They lost to the Lakers. LeBron won the first NBA Cup. But the Pacers, that helped them, and they ended up making a run to the conference finals that year. Last year, we saw the Oklahoma City Thunder reach the finals.

13:50Brian Windhorst:And that was something that I think, I don't know. I can't say it was 30 % factor they won the championship, but I think it helped them in their progression. And this year we're seeing the Knicks and the Spurs reach the final. And certainly the Spurs getting here, this is like, this is the, you know, do I think when Victor Wimbunyama retires, he's going to be like, oh yeah. An NBA Cup final in 25? That's where I really got serious. No, I agree, but... It is only a couple of years old. I mean, at some point, the hope is it'll be like, you know, the different championships they have in the Premier League or in the European Soccer League.

14:32Brian Windhorst:Yeah, so I think it's helped these teams just from a basketball standpoint. I actually think it's helped them. It's not just a made for TV event. I think it materially has helped some of these teams. And I do think that even if the courts are garish, it accomplishes the mission, which is when people see that game, they know there's something different about it. And the teams have already figured out you have to pay attention to the scoring differential, whatever. But you bring up a good point about the Premier League. You're catching me as I've just come back from a weekend in London where I went to some Premier League games.

15:08Brian Windhorst:And I went to Chelsea. And when you go into Chelsea, they have signage all over the place that says world champions. And I will admit that I asked somebody, I said, what are they? Because I follow, I loosely follow international soccer. What are they world champions of? I mean, I enjoyed my time there a lot. They won the Club World Cup, which was, I think, the first time it was ever held. It was in the United States. I don't know if you were aware of that. that gives you the right to the world champion moniker. This is a historic club. There's won many things that I'm telling you, John. They had world champions all over the place.

15:46And I think the reason is because in international soccer,

15:50Brian Windhorst:there is a recognition that, you know, you can't win something all the time. So if you win something, you should celebrate it. And on Sunday, that was on Saturday. On Sunday, I went to Crystal Palace. Crystal Palace won last year the FA Cup, which is a very historic thing which is actually what the nba cup is modeled after um and that was a huge thing for the um a huge accomplishment for that particular club in that particular time and is you know they can proudly call themselves champions they got screwed out of their bid into the europa league but this is not a soccer podcast so i won't go into that the club that i espouse to be a fan of, sadly.

16:35Brian Windhorst:Tottenham Hotspur won the Europa League last year and had a parade that was the biggest celebration in decades for that club. None of those clubs actually won the Premier League or won the Champions League, which are the two premium trophies to win. And all of those teams could have the celebration about having something material. The Club World Cup, we're still working on that. But the point is, it says all over Chelsea, This most historic, one of the most historic soccer venues in the world is Sanford Bridge. It says they've got world champions plastered everywhere. So the concept that we're doing here, I think is a good concept.

17:15Brian Windhorst:But everybody is still working on the execution to really put it in the best position to be successful. Hey, Brian, before we go to break, you referenced the NBA All-Star Game, which all the all-star games are struggling, I think, is a fair word to use for them. The NBA has made some changes. You referenced Saturday night saying that, you know, the slam dunk might not come back. No, it's coming back. It's just DOA. It's going to change or whatever. What changes do you think need to be made for the all-star game weekend? Beyond what you said about the NBA Cup. I would do something very radical in that I would play the all-star game the way it was played my whole childhood and the way it was played for decades, where the players play for the East versus the West and they play a 48-minute game of basketball and try to win.

18:14Brian Windhorst:And they've tried everything that they can. It's so complicated, John. If you ask me right now to explain what they're doing this year, my profession is the NBA. I spend hundreds of hours a week, maybe a hundred, thousands of hours a year working to become an expert at the game at all levels. I have no idea what is happening on the All-Star weekend this year. I mean, it's world versus U.S. generally. There's like four different teams. And not only that, I have no interest in finding out. um i have no idea what the format of the slam dunk contest is i remember i watched it last year and i was like i don't know how many rounds no idea um i don't know how the format of the three-point contest they have rounds there's there's different color balls this ball counts three this ball counts two this ball counts one this rack all no idea uh totally lost the plot on that with me I would do some really crazy things where I would say play in the All-Star game All-Stars and then the people that are in the All-Star game and are the field for the slam dunk contest and three-point contest.

19:32Brian Windhorst:I like the idea of building up younger players and giving them an opportunity, but I don't think the All-Star weekend is the time for that. They have a rookie sophomore game for that. I think the All-Star weekend is for all-stars. But there are smart people in the league office. It's not like they haven't tried a lot of different things. But back to basics is what I would say. But I would just tell you that they've tried back to basics, and the players haven't shown interest, and so it hasn't been successful. Brian, let me take a quick break and come back. And something else I just have questions about is this NBA Europe idea that the NBA has going forward.

20:18And I just want to get your take on that.

20:40Brian Windhorst:master he was always meant to be. Or build memories with savings on top brand power tools so you can tackle projects side by side. Gift more and do more together this Father's Day with help from The Home Depot. Exclusions apply. See homekeeper.com slash price match for details. History That Doesn't Suck is a legit, hard-hitting American history podcast told through entertaining stories. As we approach America's 250th anniversary, now might be the time to go back and learn how we got here. With more than 200 episodes, you can binge your way decade by decade, defining event to defining event from the founding into the 20th century.

21:15Join me, Professor Greg Jackson, for History That Doesn't Suck, an Odyssey podcast, available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. So the NBA, it has done a great job, in my opinion, internationally. And it's expanded internationally, you look at the number of international players, the superstars that have come to play in the league here, and they've been pushing forward with this NBA Europe idea where I guess they want to own their own league over in Europe. How is that progressing? What exactly is the NBA trying to do here?

21:59Brian Windhorst:The NBA sees an underserved opportunity there in Europe. They think that basketball is very popular in Europe, but the gap between the way the soccer teams perform and the way that they're able to capture revenue is a big gap between the basketball teams. And so they think that they can do it better. As somebody who has spent a lot of time in my life overseas covering basketball, in fact, this last weekend, I was actually in Belgrade, Serbia to watch a classic EuroLeague game. Crystal Palace and Chelsea and Belgrade, Serbia. Yeah, it was a great weekend. Yeah, so I went to see a classic EuroLeague game between KK Partizan and Red Star Belgrade, which are the two Belgrade powerhouses known as the Eternal Derby.

22:48Brian Windhorst:A great experience. They have an 18 ,000-seat arena there in Belgrade with tremendous support. I would just say that I am skeptical that the NBA can make this successful. They're going to do it. They're going to do this league. Whether or not it gets off the ground in 27 or 28, I think, is still up in the air. Let me just real quick, John, in the world of basketball, there's a challenge. There is underserved fans in the world who want more basketball. Those are primarily based in Asia, China being the center of it. They want more basketball there. There is underserved capital that wants to invest in basketball.

23:29Brian Windhorst:It's primarily in the Middle East. The Middle Eastern sovereign wealth funds want to invest in sport, particularly American sport. But there are guardrails for various reasons, and there's limitations of what they can invest in the NBA and other pro leagues, but certainly the NBA. And there's talent, and I wouldn't say underserved talent in Europe, but certainly there's talent in Europe. This is a problem. We need to somehow figure a way to get these together because there's not enough fans. You know, there's not a lot of basketball talent in Asia, unfortunately. You know, there's fans but no talent in the Middle East.

24:04Brian Windhorst:There's money but no population. And in Europe, there's talent, but they haven't proven to be a revenue juggernaut. And so the NBA, I think, is trying to take advantage of the situation and solve it. In all honesty, John and I don't think Adam Silver would ever say it this way. I will say it this way as somebody who spent time in the Middle East, knows some of the people involved, spent a lot of time in Europe. I think part of the reason the NBA is doing NBA Europe is they're giving the sovereign wealth funds a place to invest in teams so that they can basically get into business with the sovereign wealth funds in a way that they can't get into in the NBA.

24:43Brian Windhorst:and they also wanted to marry that with Europe. I have talked directly to the leadership in Abu Dhabi. I know that they have great interest in starting a team in Manchester to twin with their fabulously successful Man City. There are officials from the Qatari investment sovereign funds that are on the record saying they have an interest in starting a team alongside their PSG operation that is very successful in Paris. Um, that is true. Those are tremendous people to, to, to partner with basketball working in Manchester. I just, I, I can't see it. Um, you know, and if it's ever going to work, it's going to work with the partnership of the NBA and Man City, but they have a great arena.

25:30Brian Windhorst:I'll say that. Um, uh, but primarily like, let me just ask you this, uh, John. Um, so basically what the league was, they really wants to create some expansion teams with, in legacy brands. It's a good idea on a whiteboard, right? You know, Man City, PSG, we'll see what happens in London. And then they want to take, they basically want to take some teams out of the EuroLeague that are legacy teams, you know, teams like FC Barcelona, Real Madrid, Abel Berlin, you know, teams that have, you know, fan bases and histories and sort of marry that together under the ESPN brand that has a long history of creating revenue generating things.

26:14Brian Windhorst:But I would just say to this, if I was going to sell you on investing in the NBA, the NBA doesn't need, you know, seed money investment. But if I was going to sell you on it, I would say to you, we are the NBA, we have a$77 billion media rights deal, come invest in our product. um the if they have media rights situations set up for nba europe i'm not aware of them and i've talked to people that are mulling investing in nba europe and i say do you you do you have any information about media rights because i don't think this works without media rights that's the different that's the big reason why the european teams aren't able to grow they don't have media rights the basketball teams the soccer teams have media rights um And so maybe Adam Silver and Mark Tatum, the guys who are putting this together, and they've got some big time investment bankers seeking investment.