Dowman's Breakout & The Anthony Gordon Debate

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1:47Well, what an opportunity for them to be around the squat. He could be a Premier League winner when he's still finishing school off. That is a mess. When I scored against Arsenal, I think I was like on£75 a week or something like that. You're joking. I think he'd be expected to finish in the Champions League spot. I'm sure he'll have conversations and if he doesn't, then see what happens from there. To put those numbers up, given the context of this season, who's playing better than him? I tell you what, it feels like that was a good weekend of Premier League football with a lot of stories, doesn't it?

2:21Wayne, from Saturday right through to Sunday, there was, I mean, there was also some terrible games and some terrible nil-nils in there, let's be honest, but there was quite a lot of stories, wasn't there? Particularly a certain teenager on Saturday?

2:34Yeah, unfortunately, his goal come against Everton, but no, I think it's a big moment for him and his life and for Max Dalman and his life and his career. Obviously, it's something which I've been through as a 16-year-old. And that moment, we'll live here with him for the rest of his life. And I'm sure there'll be many more, but that's the first time it happened. And you could see how happy he was as well after he scored. It was a big moment for him. There was a little bit where I don't think he realised what he'd actually done. That was quite fun to see because he hadn't a clue. But then you're seeing Arteta in a bench going crazy and the whole stadium's going mad.

3:14And then he looked at it and he was like, oh yeah and then he started kicking the corner flag yeah no you don't do because he's obviously a hugely talented player young player and he'll score goals in games for you know the I don't know the 21s or the the second team whatever it is now and then but to do it in front of that many fans is is different and you don't know how you're going to react if you score so it's a massive moment for him for the club obviously to bring a player through like that you can all see his talent and it's a big year for him as well because I think he'd be doing his GCSEs so he's probably going to let on I thought you were going to mention a World Cup you never know do you he might have to miss his GCSEs for the World Cup it happens with it has happened with Theo didn't him Theo made the World Cup after not even playing in the Premier League can we talk about the goal Wayne because we'll talk about his overall performance as well because I mean he only came on in the second half but he had an impact straight away his goal I saw a few people saying oh he kind of just had to run through but talk us through just what skill that took to keep his composure even to take it round I can't remember who it was on the halfway line and to go the whole way through at just 16 years old what kind of skill and composure does that take yeah it does but for him for that that type of player that's what he is He's a dribbler.

4:42He takes the ball. He's a clever player. And he attacks defenders. So probably for him, a little bit easier than most. Certainly for most players his age. And it's just the composure, having the composure to know that if you get it right, you're going to be going to run to a goal. And that's what he's done. So yeah, it's a difficult skill, of course, to beat two players. Isn't it nice seeing a player beat a player again? It's just nice to see a player run at people and dribble and try and beat a man rather than pass it. I'm at the match of the day studios now, just watching Liverpool and seeing that young lad Rio is exactly the same, getting the ball and committing defenders.

5:19Yeah, it's been nice to see that, especially the young players as well, because sometimes with young players, they can have a bit of a fear of the senior players. And, you know, if they shout the ball, they feel like they have to give them the ball. But I was thinking today, every time Liverpool got the ball, I was thinking, just give it to him, give it to that Rio and let him go and dribble. So it's why Vim and Dalman, especially them two, I think, this season, and I think they've been managed well as well by Arnie Slott and Mikhail Arteta have managed them really well. Yeah, I don't think I've seen any interviews with Max Dalman yet, and obviously in an age where we're seeing half-time interviews and stuff.

5:54Do you think that's the right approach at the moment? We spoke with you and Michael on the podcast about it recently, how important those around you are, particularly at this point. Yeah, no, definitely. and as I said before I was laughing but he has got his GCSEs and his education I'm sure for him and his family is important as well so I think the less pressure the less interviews he'll probably be doing some internal ones with Arsenal just to get them used to it and they'll probably be holding them back so he gets used to speaking in front of the cameras and stuff but I think nowadays the younger lads now as you said about social media they're on it all the time anyway So I'm sure they'll probably be okay doing interviews.

6:37But I think it's better just to keep them away from the public for this period. What do you reckon the last 24 hours or so will have been like for him? Can you remember the 24 hours after you scored, ironically, by the way, the goal for Everton against Arsenal? So it's just a reverse. It feels like it's a real kind of twist of fate. Yeah, no, it's... Well, I was back out playing with my mates on the street and I scored after the game. so I don't know what it weren't like now with social media you can see it everywhere so he'll be seeing it everywhere people be messaging us whatever Instagram or Twitter whatever he's got and he'll be seeing it everywhere so I don't think he will have slept many hours last night because I'm sure he will have been up watching it and seeing people's reactions to his goal and stuff so no but he'll be delighted I'm sure what's the most important thing he can do right now in order to like not let it get to his head or maybe to keep the performances consistent?

7:34Because like you're saying, it's everywhere. How do you get away from it? And there's going to be loads of people probably writing articles calling him the English Messi tomorrow. So how does he move on from here and make sure he keeps himself grounded? Well, it seems like he's doing that anyway. You know, he come through in pre-season, obviously, with Arsenal. And then I think he played a few times, come on off the bench a few times. and so I think his parents and his family will be helping him with that. Mikel Arteta, some of the senior players in the Arsenal squad, will all, I'm sure, not let him get ahead of himself.

8:09But I think you have to enjoy it as well. You know, sometimes you're, you know, people think that enjoying success is arrogant and I just think they do it in the States. They have successful athletes and they enjoy it and they celebrate it. so when we've got a young lad like that coming through as a 16 year old he's clearly got a lot of ability and you just hope he can go and fulfill that potential is let's enjoy it and you know let him go and express himself does it bring with it another side though because i imagine that as soon as you're thrust into the spotlight as soon as everyone's talking about you there's a lot of people that kind of jump out of the woodwork that kind of want a piece of you sorry to talk about like the negative side but there must be some kind of pitfalls that kind of come with it too yeah and that's I think that's just that's where I'm sure the club will be trying to help him with Darren his parents or family whatever that may be we'll be helping him with Darren and no doubt you know on Monday morning we'll see you know his I was going to say one of his former teachers but probably he probably still is the teacher do you reckon he actually is going to school on Monday morning so like this podcast is going out on Monday morning does he go to school just like no he'll be he'll have he'll have school won't he but he'll have day release and he'll have two or three days probably a week off I'm sure or he'll have tutors coming to help him with work but he misses because of the football but yeah no you'll have coaches when he was a kid a young lad popping up and that's that happens and I think I used to get worked up by that when I was that age Did you?

9:48Yeah I think why are they doing that but I think it's different now with different age when I was coming through there was no social media at that time so it was all about the newspapers and you know whether you like it or not you was front page on back page and I think it's maybe not the scrutiny's not on you as much maybe these days Did you buy all the papers after that game? Or did your parents buy them? My parents probably will have I can't remember to be honest To be fair, you probably weren't thinking of buying papers back then, but I don't know. It's just such a different era, isn't it?

10:24But watching that game, Kate, it did feel like, I mean, you've probably seen, Wayne, you'll have seen it as well. There's been comparisons, hasn't there? I've seen a few people say the last time they saw a young player make an impact like that was probably Wayne. It felt like, I don't want to overhype it and I don't want to become part of the media that are jumping on the bandwagon, but it felt like almost a bit of a moment in time. Yeah, it was a really, really nice moment. And I think it was one of those moments that all football fans watch, regardless of the team you support and sort of are happy for it.

10:52Yeah, I was happy for the kid, right? Do you know what I mean? And it was because he was playing exciting football and stuff as well. And to cap it off of a goal was absolutely amazing. But I think obviously, you know, everyone's going to be making the comparisons with Wayne and they're going to be making the comparisons with all sorts of young players. But I think it's important not to get ahead of ourselves and to let him enjoy the moment without trying to put added pressure onto him. I think let him be Max Dowman and let him enjoy it and see how far he can take it rather than already putting up, like putting even more pressure on him to, like, because like, let's be serious.

11:26If he still goes on to become an amazing Premier League player and he doesn't win as much as Wayne, he's not a failure. Do you know what I mean? But like adding that little bit of pressure onto him is a bit, I don't know. I don't like it. I just want him to do well. It seems from the games I've watched him, he seems to, you know, not let that pressure affect him because, you know, the same as you said before with young Rio for Liverpool. He gets the ball, he holds on to it, he commits defenders, he goes to take them on and so he definitely looks like he's got a confidence about him. But how much of that is just youth?

12:01Like, because you and Michael were talking about it and saying when you're young, you just got no fear and like, at what point is it where the fear comes out and then you start thinking about second-guessing yourself and going... I think that happens naturally when you're settled in the team and then people start picking up on your mistakes. I think as a young lad, you very rarely get criticised for giving the ball away or you make a mistake which leads to a goal. You're getting courage to keep your head up and whatever. But when that starts happening, then maybe... And I've seen it happen with many players.

12:37they say, oh, do you know what? I'm not going to risk this pass. I'll play here because I don't want that to happen again. But as I said, he's got a, not a free pass, but he's got an opportunity now to go and show everyone his ability, enjoy it. And I'm sure if he plays the potential, we'll all enjoy watching him. Do you know what I think this shows as well for players like Max Damman, like Rio and Gamawa, how important it is to just take your chances. when you're given a shot, when you're given an opportunity to go out there and play fearless and forget about whatever. Like, what's the worst that can happen?

13:12Like, you try something, it doesn't work. Because if you don't try anything, you might not get picked anyway. So you might as well go for it, right? Yeah. Well, I used to say to the young players at Man United when I was there, when I was a bit older, there was a young lad called Demi. Demetri Mitchell. Yeah. Yeah, it was, yeah. A little full-back. and he'd come and train with us and I said to him before I said you have to leave an impact on the training session I don't know if I've I might have said this we've said it here we've said it yeah so stuff like that where you have to leave an impact so when you get an opportunity to play in the Premier League try and come off that pitch with obviously he scored the goal but if you're a defender if you're going to put a great tackler and have you cleared balls out the box?

14:03Have you got blocks in? Have you got a forward? Have you created opportunities? Have you got your shot off or have you made good runs in Bayern? Try and leave an impact where people, or have you worked hard than other players, harder than other players? Try and leave an impact where demands you'll think, you know what, you deserve to go again. Do you think Arsenal almost need a bit of that fearlessness? Because you could sense even from watching on TV, there was that bit of tension around the Emirates and they so desperately want to win this title. Could he actually be the perfect addition to this team?

14:34Because he's not burdened by the pressure of past seasons. But what an opportunity for him to be around the squad. He could be a Premier League winner when he's still finishing school off. Oh, my gosh. That is a mad thought, isn't it? Yeah, do you think now he has to play a bit more, Wayne, or do you think he's the perfect off the bench for Arsenal? Yeah, no, I think just from now to the end of the season, I don't know how how much he's pushed with his education I think I'm sure Michael Arateth will have had his parenting and his family and spoke about what his education means to him and how much him himself and his family pushing for that for him to get good marks on that and if that's the case then I'd imagine especially now he won't be in as much as he'd probably like, but he's got, you know, just get them hard away now.

15:33You've got many years ahead of you. Surely if you're Mikel Artetti, you're saying, please put the schoolwork on hold until the end of May. Like, we just need him as part of our squad because we saw, like, am I overstating it, Wayne? It felt like he changed the game for Arsenal yesterday when he came on. Aside from his goal contributions, just the way he was playing. Yeah, as an impact, I think it was the, I think it was Newcastle in pre-season isn't it? It was the first time I've seen him. And you can see he's got an aura about him and he's got a belief in himself, it looks like, about him. And it was the same yesterday when he came on against Everton.

16:08So, yeah, he can have an impact. I don't think there's any debate in that. But I just think, for me, it was all football over education. And I don't know what his situation is. So if it's education first, then I don't think we'll see that much room over the next couple of weeks.

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18:20You've obviously got first-hand experience of recently watching Kai kind of grow up in academies as well. Have you noticed a difference in the way young players are treated now? And going back to what you said, and you said on multiple pods before about the way football's changed, do you have any concerns that this freedom that he's got could be kind of coached out of him? It depends on your coach. Every coach is different as well. so yeah no I think he's a fantastic player we're still still producing players you know you look at probably someone like Cole Palmer who's similar you know he still plays with that that freedom which you'd be like to see in players so I don't think there's a fear of getting coached out yeah I think we've just got to let him let him find him as a player and let him find you know the right position Is it wide?

19:13Is it number 10? Is it 9? Whatever. He's still got a lot of development in his body as well. He's still developing. So, you know, let's see where he is in a few years and then hopefully he's helping England as well. Do you think this leaves Arteta with a good headache, admittedly, in terms of his midfield options beyond the end of this season? Does he have to kind of prioritise Dalman's minutes going forward and re-look at his midfield? No I think maybe in a few years and that's what happens naturally if a young player comes in normally we had in Man United when myself and Ronaldo were coming through and then you could see that I think it was obvious that me and him were going to take over from Van Nistelwey as goal scorers and so that naturally happens anyway with your team but with Doudman I don't even think he classes a player in this squad now because he's obviously that young, he's still in school, he's classed as an academy player at the minute, so he won't be getting paid, that's all.

20:14What's it? What? What do you mean you don't get paid? What, nothing? No, I wouldn't, you can't get paid until you've left school, can you? Can you not? I didn't know that. No, you start your scholar when you leave school and... So you've got players on there that are being played hundreds of thousands a week, and then he's just replaced them on the pitch and come on and done that? He could probably still be putting his expenses in. We used to do that with England. for petrol and stuff. When I used to meet up with England, the U team, you know, the 15s, used to pay for your petrol wherever you throw from.

20:46So I used to, wherever we meet up, I used to find the furthest place away in England. That's where we used to throw from. Oh yeah, I came from Land's End. Sorry. So hold on, so he's probably not got a contract yet. If that's... We have one pre-agreed, obviously, but... Oh, he can put any numbers on that now. Yeah, so obviously everything that's happened this year is helping them from that point of view. Is this why you had to get a KA deal, Wayne, to make your money off the car sponsorship? Because you couldn't get a car because you weren't being paid? No, I had to deal with Ford from when I was about 14.

21:25Obviously, they weren't giving me cars then, but that was for my dad. Oh, nice. When I scored against Arsenal, I think I was like£75 a week or something like that. You're choking. but then that was four days before me 17th birthday. So when you turn 17, you can sign a professional contract. So I was still a scholar, yeah. Damman signed a pre-contract agreement with Arsenal in January. So yeah, it's all sorted. Arsenal weren't going to let sleep on that one, were they? And I bet they're pretty relieved they didn't after what's happened in recent games. It's going to be really interesting. Wayne, does it get annoying actually?

21:57Every time a teenager does well in the Premier League, you get idiots like us asking you, is he the next big thing? but can I just one more thing though can I just so that time when you scored against Arsenal when you were 16 all your mates are probably going oh yeah well yeah drinks are on you you've just scored from the Premier League and you've got 75 quid so you're skin yeah I only have four days to wait I used to borrow money off my mum and dad until I saw me until I saw me from contact so I remember I went into Audi thinking I was going to get this big Audi and stuff when I was 17 and passed me testing then I remembered that I had to deal with Ford so that's why I had to go in the K.A.

22:40I'm so glad you had to deal with Ford because it's just so funny. Just that idea though of you borrowing money while you scored in the Premier is just, that's bonkers to me. It's just a normal life. No, I know, but it's just bonkers. You don't think of it. I thought we'd be unloaded anyway. Yeah, sorry, that's very insightful. Yeah, we've digressed a bit there, haven't we? But it's just the world that you don't even think of and probably people listening to this as well will be like, oh my gosh yeah that's wild right I just said it then it's probably annoying every time I'm teenager as well and we sit here and ask you are they the next big thing are they the next big Wayne Rooney but how big genuinely do you think this player can be it's hard to tell I think it really is it's hard to tell with any player at that age who are coming through and I think for them just focus and keep playing keep enjoying playing and hopefully with the right guidance and the right coaching as well you can go on to be a superstar for England you hope but you never know we've seen we've seen players come through before you know it was before James Vaughan before Dalman and had a good career but then you never know whether they're going to be an absolute superstar or they're going to just go on to have good careers so I think time will tell I just hope you just goes on to be brilliant for England, okay?

24:01Selfishly, I know you don't care because of Arsenal, but... No, no, no, 100%. I mean, I would love for him to do well for England, but like I said earlier, I just don't want to put bags of pressure on him because that way... You've been doing too much media. You're sounding too pundit-like. No, do you not know? Because honestly, I don't know because I do want him to be like the next big thing, but it is so hard. Like, you need so much luck behind you as well with injuries and stuff like that. So hopefully, like, he gets to just be on the same course he's on now and it leads England to a World Cup.

24:28Yeah, big point. As for Arsenal overall, title race over given what happened at West Ham as well? No, I don't think it's over. I think they're obviously in an incredible position. What is it, nine points? Yeah, nine points, yeah. If City win the game in hand and then beat Arsenal, it's three points. So I think Arsenal have no worries about Arsenal getting complacent because, as I said before, they're very efficient and they look like the mentality and the mindset is really focused. So I think it'd be difficult for City to win the lead now, but it's definitely not hope. Should we talk about Rio and Gamoa then?

25:09Because Wayne, you already mentioned him and there's been a few people talking about him in recent weeks, hasn't he? He played really well in the FA Cup, I think it was, for Liverpool at Wolves after that disappointing result on Molyneux a few days before. What is it you're really enjoying about him and do you feel like he should be playing even more? Yeah, just to stay in recklessness and, you know, watching the game today and every time with the ball, Pedro Poro was, you know, having nightmares. And obviously, I'm in match of the day, so I've checked the stats. So we had seven out of seven, 100 % dribble success, which was very rare.

25:48So, yeah, I think when you have a player who's committing defenders and making them defend, that's what any fan wants to see. Yeah, it was a big statement. It felt like there was quite a lot of big statement team news from Liverpool today. And I don't know, it just felt like it was nice to see another young player, K, come through and be the story. Although, admittedly, it wasn't the story in the end with the way that game ended. Yeah, I mean, I was a bit worried when they took him off. I was like, I hope it's not anything serious. Maybe they're just trying to manage his minutes or whatever. But he's one of the only bright sparks at a moment in that forward line.

26:24They brought on Salah and stuff afterwards, but they didn't make much of an impact. But yeah, he's like Wayne just alluded to, like just having players running again, man. I just love it. Like wingers getting a bit of paint on their boots. It's just it's the stuff we want to see. Right. And it's what you watch football for. So, yeah, it's nice when you see people passing it around for a goal or whatever. But there's something so pure about seeing a young player just take the ball and go, give it to me, I'm going to try and make something happen. And these guys are doing that and long may it continue.

26:58What did you make of Liverpool overall, Wayne? Is Arnaz slot under any pressure at all now? Because that was a disappointing result. I think there was a few boos at full-time at Anfield. I don't know what the objectives were before the season, but obviously as champions I think he'd be expected to finish in the Champions League spot and then I'm sure they'll have conversations and if he doesn't then see what happens from there but yeah, no, I think Liverpool are they've been a bit inconsistent this season I mean, there's times where they've played really well and then times where they haven't been as good and a lot of new signings in the building and maybe some players not playing as well as we've seen them in previous years.

27:44So, yeah, I think they'd be hoping to get Champions League plays. It does feel like those Champions League places are hotting up. Go on, Kay, you can wax lyrical back Man United here if you want to. Well, look, Michael Carrick's doing a great job, Man United. I just wish he took over. We could just keep re-recording that and playing that. No, of course, yeah. Look, man, 3-1 against Villa. We're putting a bit of space between us and them. Casemiro was amazing once again. One more year? I wish he could, but I think he's made up his mind. I think there's talks of him going to Italy. But Bruno Fernandes, what he's been doing, I think he matched David Beckham's record today.