Hodgson On ROCKY Ronaldo Relationship & Is Guehi Up There With Terry?

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1:25Explore vibrant seasonal flavors like their trending mango yuzu chantilly cake. Great for brunch or an after-dinner treat. Speaking of brunch, check out their deviled eggs, cold-pressed juices, and more. Spring is in bloom now at Whole Foods Market. I think we knew then that was going to be the end of Royaling. That moment in that dressing room after the game was, I think, the worst I've ever felt. Just talk to us a little bit more about Ronaldo. I didn't think we got on there. Alise certainly is up there with Wayne Rooney and Steven Giot and makes the best player I've ever worked with. Roy, firstly, great to see you.

2:03I haven't seen you for a while. How are you doing? Very well, thanks. Thanks for inviting me. It's good to have him on, isn't he, Wang? Because you've spoken about Roy a lot as being very influential during your career. Yeah, he has been. I think certainly my best period from an individual basis with England was under Roy, so I really enjoyed my time playing for him. So, yeah, it's great to see him and have him on the show today. And I imagine you wouldn't go on all of your former players' podcasts. You clearly have a special affinity with Wayne's special relationship. I tend to do it really with people that I feel I owe something to, and certainly Wayne comes in that category.

2:39Well, we're delighted to have you here, and you've had an incredible career, and your management career has particularly taken you to some incredible places. We're not probably going to be able to talk about all of them. Good. We'll just talk about the bits that you enjoyed maybe then. And we just wanted to start with your first journey into coaching, how it all began, really. Well, it began, I suppose, by not being a good enough player, really. I mean, I was in those days, non-league football got divided between sort of amateurs who were getting paid, really. Then suddenly we were playing in a certain category with the deemed professionals, which only changed when I came back from having played in South Africa.

3:20And the reason I went to South Africa was the guy who was a manager at one of my clubs took me with him when he went over there to be player manager. And I would have gone anywhere to play football really and get a chance to do better than I'd done so far. But that didn't lead to any real professional football for me. So when I came back, it was still non-league football. And therefore, the chance to have a full-time career in the game only came about if I got a chance in coaching, which again, thanks to this man, his name is Bob Houghton, he provided that for me as well, really, because he recommended me to a club in Sweden because he'd been so successful himself for two years.

4:07A club came to him and said, look, we're looking for a coach. Know anybody? You know, someone young like yourself starting off and they were desperate, I think. They couldn't find anybody, so they went for me. And that was how it all started. A massive stroke of good fortune and even more good fortune, you know, got to a club which had the capacity to do something. You've obviously managed, you went abroad as a player and a manager as well. How much does it help your kind of wider knowledge and how much did you enjoy the different cultures and things like Roy's had? Yeah, well, my arm's obviously an English-speaking country, well English and Spanish in the States so that helped a little bit because I know Roy speaks different languages I couldn't I don't think I had grasped them if I'm being honest but yeah I think your experience I had the experience of obviously playing at the top level with Manchester United so that buys you that you know that time and that respect really if you like where I think Roy's story is different where he's had to earn that respect of you know going in as a first-time coach over there, going in when, as you said, he wasn't a popular choice.

5:20When I went into DC United, that was a popular choice to go in as a player, then as a manager. So you're going in on different fronts, really. But yeah, I really enjoyed it. The state for me was a league which was growing as a league, but it was an opportunity for me to really time-fine myself as a coach because, as Roy said before, in my first job at Derby, my first session with Derby as manager, I've never coached a team. So I've done coaching badges and stuff, but I've never actually coached a team. So the steps you have to go through to get yourself comfortable and understand, get you to know what you want and the timing of things and every aspect of coaching, you need to do it really to get better at.

6:05So I think going out to the States has allowed me to do that and really find myself. Do you think it's better to do that away from England as well and away from the English press and stuff as well? No, it depends. There's a lot more pressure in England. Whatever level you're at, there's pressure to do it. Where in the States, there's not that pressure to, you know, obviously there's no relegation. So there's not that pressure over there to be as successful so quickly. You tend to get the time to, you know, implement your style. Well, somewhere that doesn't give you time, Inter Milan, they don't tend to give a lot of people time, do they, in big European clubs.

6:46What was that like as an English coach walking into a giant of not just like Italy, like European football? I think to some extent my naivety or lack of awareness of what a big, big job this is helped me again there as well. I was very lucky that I had enormous assistance from a man who was an absolute inter-idol, an Italian idol. His name was Fichetti, Giacinto Fichetti. He was the one, really, I think, who was quite influential in putting my name forward to the President Moratti and getting me at the club. And then, you know, he laid his hand on me, which helped, I think, with the press to some extent, because if you're OK with Fekete, you know, you're OK with me.

7:33But again, it was a it was a changeover period for the club as well. I mean, it was quite a lot of players who just come to the club and there were no big names, really. I mean, Paul Ince was, I guess, the biggest name, really. And Paliuka, I suppose, the goalkeeper. but there was lots of other players who were good players, but they didn't have that. Well, Roberto Carlos was there, too. I shouldn't forget him. So that was the problem. Of course, that year I went back. Again, it had been a disaster for the club. In fact, they went back because they were actually a bit like a Tottenham situation at the moment.

8:09They foolishly were thinking we could get relegated here. Now, there's no way that team with those players could get relegated. That was a slight fear. the main problem at the club was insoluble because of the two main bodies, the two main players and the people they had around. So with Simeone and Ronaldo, you were never going to really get them together in one team and especially with so many players around. Just talk to us a little bit more about Ronaldo and your experience with him. Well, the most amazing thing was really, I mean, I didn't think we got on the world. I mean, I came off a bad experience.

8:51I mean, the first time I'd been sacked in my life was at Blackburn Brothers. I'd left Inter with the president telling me he wanted me to stay and me saying, I don't think you do really. You know, it's nice of you to say so, but I've had my two years. Two years Inter's not bad anyway. You give me two full seasons. You want me to go. Jack Walker was making big strides to get me to Blackwood. I think it's time to go. So I went. But then, of course, after a very, very successful first year when we got into Europe, we were doing badly by Christmas the following year, and he sacked me. And that hit me very, very hard, I suppose.

9:34Don't forget, I was 50 then, and that's quite a long time after 28 to 50. What's that? 22 years, isn't it? 22 years of not being sacked. and most people said, oh, you're a G, you're wonderful, you're fantastic, we want you to stay. So someone said to me, no, you're not good enough, we don't want you, you're out. And I had about two months of that before I got the phone call from Feketi saying, Malati would like you to come back. And I said, really? He said, yeah, he wants you to come back and help us out. So I went back with quite a lot of enthusiasm, really, but I think I'd been damaged by that sacking.

10:12I think sacking does damage people. Yeah, I don't think people realise how hard it is when you get sacked because, you know, when you're in football, I go back to myself when I got sacked and a lot of it, your career is high and good moments, and then you take that challenge to go into coaching and then you get sacked. It's not easy with everything and what comes with, obviously the press coming alongside all that as well and you're not good enough and all that. And then all of a sudden you're at home or you're sat around when you're constantly working. Now all of a sudden you're not doing anything.

10:52I think it's a lot more difficult than what people will understand them. Is it because of everything else as well around it? So you've probably moved your life to that, to be in a different city. You change a lot in your family life for it as well. But I think also you feel that you, you know, especially with the times I've been sacked, it's been quite early on. so you feel like you're going into the club to have your put your blueprint down and and change certain things and you've got this understanding with the owners or you know with the sporting director now if you like and then before you know it that's it you're sacked so I didn't feel I actually had a chance to go and show which one was the most disappointing one for you well Birmingham was because I didn't feel I should never have went in there if I'm being honest looking back but when you look back you can always say that and at Plymouth I think we were actually okay for the budget we had for everything we had we were actually okay and I think the press built up and the owner maybe found that difficult and they said I've got no that's their decision they've made but then after that it is difficult and it can be lonely a lonely place after you've been sacked Do you agree Roy?

12:06Do you find that Totally agree with it I think it's I think it's quite a lot of playing with people's lives these days, I'm sitting here and you're saying nice things about my career. But really and truly, if it was to start today, if I go back, if I was 28 years of age now, with my coaching badges and probably a few people saying, oh, he looks good, he looks like he's a good coach, I think it'd be very, very hard to have any length of career. Quite simply because it's all about results. and as soon as results, it amuses me sometimes to see a team doing really well. This team's doing well in the league.

12:43They must be delighted. And the game ends with them having lost it. I mean, take Newcastle. I mean, I saw they were booed off the field by their fans. Now, that's almost unthinkable. Newcastle was one of the teams that didn't boo the fans off, even if you go back 20, 30 years. But they had the temerity to lose a game which they were not supposed to lose. Well, unfortunately, it is a game. And certainly, even if you've got more chance of winning all the time if you're Arsenal and Man City, but if you're at the moment Burnley and Wolves, you've got no chance of winning all the time. But you're getting no credit for the work you're doing.

13:21And I haven't seen a lot of those teams, but one or two games I've seen of theirs, I think those two teams are doing excellently well. They're doing a wonderful job, really, with what they've got and where they are. But I wouldn't be surprised if they're not suffering, you know, dogs abuse from the local press and their fans. And of course, they've already sacked their, well, Burnley haven't touched wood, but certainly Wolves have got rid of their mads and Nottingham Forest have got rid of two. Okay, let's skip through a few of your clubs then and move on to another incredibly high-pressure job, England.

13:56Yes. Wayne, should we start with your, because of course you were there when Roy got the job. What was that like for you when you heard Roy was coming in in those early days? Yeah, you don't know what to expect really because obviously when you've got a new manager coming in, you don't really know what to expect from the manager. And then I think it was after Capello. It was after Fabio as well. So I was delighted that happened to me because I don't think I was in favour of the Capello one. Did you get a catch-up back? So when Roy comes in, it was nice to have an English feel, a background. Firstly, back around the place, obviously, with Roy and Ray and Guy Neville coming into it.

14:42And then getting to know Roy and getting to know the coaches was great. And Roy was a little bit different to what I thought he'd be. Did you think he'd be? No, so obviously, when I'd seen him on TV and different things, I thought he'd be a bit quieter. You're telling me he's not this lovely quiet? And then I think it was the first game or a half time where he snapped. It was like, wow, it took me back a little bit. But no, as I said before, my favourite period of playing for England was underway. And I think because we had a trust as well with each other. And I loved going to play for England.

15:19I do it every game. Injured I'd do it. And that was my favourite period. I think it's the best common man I can give for you. your favourite period of playing for England was was on the road especially since we were so unsuccessful that's a very nice job what was it like to you walking into that job at that point yeah well I to be honest I thought that I was going to get the job at one stage when they gave it to Ericsson that's when I thought maybe I'll be England manager which of course is something as an English coach you aspire to or dream of doing one day but I didn't get it then so I thought that that chance had gone and then when I knew Capello was you know maybe not going to last that long because you know there was a problem wasn't there with John Terry and Ferdinand and also it seemed to me that he'd run his course a bit you know he wasn't that desperate to stay on I thought well they're going to get a new but for me it was going to be Harry Redknapp because the whole press was so I didn't even really give it I thought that it was going to be me.

16:29And I was at West Brom at the time, and my contract there was running out in the summer. And they were keen for me to re-sign, but I was not sure that's where I wanted to be. And it was hanging on a bit because I knew that if I signed a new contract and anyone did come in for me at West Brom, that the club would ask for quite a lot of compensation. So I thought, well, hang on, at least at the end of the season, at least if someone does come in, I won't be tied up with a price on my head. We'd played Aston Villa, starting to say enough, in a derby at the Hawthorns. And I think we'd drawn the game, which wasn't a bad result for us.

17:06And the phone rang. And it was Jeremy Peace, the chairman of West Brom. I was surprised because we didn't, we didn't have that sort of relationship, really. I mean, we spoke from time to time, but he certainly didn't ring me to discuss the game that had just been played. a few little pleasantries but yeah, good yesterday. He said, that's not why I'm ringing. He said, the FA want to speak to you. I said, really? He said, yeah. I said, when? He said, tomorrow. This is on Sunday at Wembley. I said, are they holding an interview process? He said, no, I don't think so. So I think they're going to offer you the job.

17:46And that was it. Amazing. I mean, you could have banjoed me there, really. I mean, the last thing I really experienced, I turned around and Sheila and Chris, you won't believe that. He's just told me, Jeremy, that I'm to go to the FA and they're going to help me. Anyway, that's what happened, strange enough. I had no agent or anything like that. I just went up there myself and sat with Trevor and David and the others. And, you know, they said to me, you know, what do you think? Well, of course, you know. So it was sorted on that day, on that Monday? When do I start, basically? Because don't forget, Capello had left, I think it was just about before we were due to get together, wasn't it?

18:28Yeah. For the 2012, so there wasn't a lot of time. And they said, you know, this is the contract we're offering. Yeah, because I think the first time we, it was the actual squad for the competition. Yeah. I remember going to the Grove there and basically being thrown into the deep end there with the players. What was it like walking into England at that point? No, because there was obviously, and there still is, such a desperation for success in England, such a wealth of talent. And then talk of all of these club rivalries, which Wayne has said you weren't as kind of, you didn't sense it as much.

19:02No, certainly, I'd really sound like Wayne there. Was it not? I didn't sense it. Did you not? No, not really. I mean, you know, the two big names really were Stephen and Wayne anyway, and they got on really well. And I didn't, I've got to say, a lot of what I felt and experienced I might have been kidding myself. I don't know. Perhaps there were a lot of things going on which I wasn't aware of. But we were very reliant on Gary there and Dave, the goalkeeper coach. They were sort of close with that group. But I'm also interested there because you said you brought in Gary and your goalkeeping coach.

19:39What was that dynamic like? How did you, and I'm kind of interested here from Wayne's perspective as well, how the set-up worked? Well, I'm probably more interested to hear how he felt it worked as well. I thought the set up was really good and this was the first time in my time in England the first time we'd had this and we spoke a lot to him about players taking ownership as well so we obviously Roy spoke with his coaches and then it's come to us we'd set up we'd set up leadership groups or then we'd set up unit groups so you'd have the attacking players here midfielders players and the defensive players and goalkeepers here and the reason for that is to get players taking more ownership and talking more.

20:22You know, giving your own opinions. Some players in the squad wouldn't speak. The more senior ones, like myself, would talk, would talk to the coaches, but some of the younger ones, it was hard to get them to speak and speak out in meetings or just be a bit more vocal. I always remember the one time we'd done it, I was in the midfielders one. I'm like, right, let's set some targets for the next year. So what do you think, what's your target going to be? So you might have a player say, plays out wide to try and get three goals and two assists or I remember Ross Barkley saying right he's to get ten goals I was like how many goals have you scored for England and you had like 20 appearances you had he went one I said so what are you thinking the next eight games you're going to get ten goals so maybe start a little bit lower but that was really good because we we then put demand on ourselves as a group of players obviously Roy would give us demand what he wanted from us but then we put on it and a lot of the time they married up and they were very similar.

21:28Is that one of the biggest differences with international football and club football where maybe in a club format you can speak to players all the time, develop a good relationship with them whereas with international football you have to be a bit more trusting of the players and feel like that, you know, they are going to implement the things they're going to do because they're more grown up enough to do that? I think that you don't get to know the people as well as one would like to or should. And that's, of course, got worse with the shortening of the time you get together. You know, if you go back to Switzerland, we had 10 days.

22:05Oh, was it? Yeah, the game we played on a Sunday in Switzerland. We would get together on the Monday. we'd have a game the following Saturday probably and then a game the Wednesday after that. So you had time. But towards the end of our time there towards France, we weren't getting players sometimes with us until the Tuesday and we probably had a game on the Thursday and a game on the Monday. So you don't have that chance to really get to know people. But I don't know that I did very well in that respect anyway. I don't know that I could have done better, I think, spending time trying to get to know the players better.

22:43Again, somewhat naively thought, if the work we do is correct and if the work we do is going to be acceptable to them, you'll get feedback on that. If you're working and doing things, you see the players don't like this or the players feel this is wrong or feel we're doing too much or whatever, you get that feedback there. But I don't know that I got enough of a feedback from what was going on in the group around us. but having said all that I'm not 100 % certain it would have made a vast difference to the results unfortunately the best result was in 2012 when I first took over Capello's team that arguably might have been the best team man for man anyway going through the years because we we had to I think the team in 2016 as well I think that had the potential to do what the England team is doing now because there was a lot of young players coming through and you could see the potential of them young players and I actually think in 2016 we were very local I thought we played some really good football and then it was the Iceland game it was a one-off game which obviously obviously killed us but up until then I thought we were actually playing some really good stuff Even the first one if you remember I mean we we really outplayed Russia in France and they equalised you know totally against them we had a play from a corner kick which had been cleared in about the 89th minute.

24:14So a 1-0 victory became 1-1. And then the Slovakia game, I made the big mistake of giving players a rest for the quarter. I don't think you played in that game. No, I was on the bench. Give players a rest, you know, we're qualified. We're qualified. Another massive mistake. You shouldn't do that. And strangely enough, I should have learned that because I did it with Switzerland as well. And I should have learned the lesson. That's another thing, of course. You don't learn lessons always. That's the problem. You need people who remind you all the time. When you reflect on Euro 2016 now, obviously Wayne's spoken about it quite a few times and said that the feeling was good in terms of like you're playing good football and everything and it's just defined by that one game.

25:00How do you reflect on it and how difficult was that for you in the aftermath with the way it ended? It's extremely difficult, I've got to say, because I had quite a strong belief that we would do well. I thought we would beat Iceland. I even thought we're going to play France in the next one. I thought that's a good game for us because everyone's going to think they're going to win, but I'm not so certain they are. I think we've got a really good chance of winning that one and we'll finish the tournament well. So to go out and the worst thing, of course, the coach and his assistant were two major supporters, if you like, of mine and had learnt their football, as they said, through the Bob Houghton, Roy Hodgson, Eerie.

25:43the way they play the back four the midfield four the pressing all of the system was totally down to what they'd learnt if they said from the Englishmen who came to Sweden when they were younger and ended up losing to them so it was a really bad moment and I don't know did I ever come over it not really I don't think I mean that was very tough for me also after the game because I remember obviously seeing the disappointment in Roy I think we knew then that was going to be the end of Roy and then I was then I'm starting to think right potentially this is the end of my young career as well so that moment within that restroom and I remember you come in and you said a few words and you went out and then I got up and said a few words to the players about how we're feeling now and moving forward because it was such a young squad as well.

26:45And I think we probably had myself and maybe one more who could go out and actually speak to the press. I don't think it would have been fair for any of the younger players to go out and do that. So I think that moment in that dressing room after the game was, I think, the worst I've ever felt. Yes, I'd agree with that. It's the bad moments, unfortunately, that stick with you longer and more vivid than the good ones. You know, the good ones, you're in some sort of euphonic state. And I've had a few of those, you know, where a game's gone so well and I realise this is going to really propel my career forward.

27:21It's going to propel the team forward. It's moments like that that were really hard to take. But I've got to say that in such a long career, I've been spared quite a few of those moments. So it would have been a strange career if there hadn't have been moments like that, but for it to be England. And as Wayne said, I think that team had a chance. And I think it's proven that really in a way. I wondered how you feel now watching England and watching how they've kind of gone on and developed since, kind of, because you were part of it, the journey. When I watch England today, I don't think, well, I had a part in that.

28:00Not at all, really. I mean, we did what we did because we thought it was the right thing to do. What I do dislike, and this isn't just about England and any time I spend, it's when I see any changes or the press want to find things that it didn't work because of this or because of that, which is quite often not true at all. Most of the time when managers lose their job, there's only one serious reason why it didn't work and that is because the team didn't win enough games. and if you really want to win a lot of games in any club you're at then make certain you've got good players Do you think sometimes those losses though Roy and probably you Wayne as well those losses or like some of those failures as a manager are important for your development as a manager I mean I think we brought that up right at the beginning I remember speaking to Wayne at one of the one of the LMA annual dinners when you'd just gone to Plymouth and hadn't seen him for quite a while.

29:04I said, how are you finding it? And you were so enthusiastic about it. And I said, I'm really delighted to hear that because I always thought that people like Neville, yourself, Stevie Gerrard, you know, people of that stature and that ability and that potential to be really good coaches and managers should put themselves in for that. If you come into a job with the perception that you're going to have if you're Wayne Rooney or Steven Gerrard. That's very, very tough because to some extent, I always feel that as a nation, we're not like the Americans. The Americans seem to welcome the big star.

29:49We seem to want to drag people down to some extent. He thought he was good, but he isn't that good really. and I do think today it must be very very hard for these coaches taking on jobs they worked very hard to get them you know might have worked hard to get them because of their wonderful careers and you know their status in the game and everyone you know wanting to be behind them they might have worked hard like a receiver that you know through coming up through the ranks and being a coach maybe with another top coach but the bottom line is that when they go in there how much time they're going to be given.