Liverpool's Blip, Ange's Future & Strangest Present Ever

0:00This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK.

0:30at Whole Foods Market. How many streaming subscriptions do you have? Is it the same for your business? Avoid it by having all your business on one platform. Try Odoo for free at odoo.com. That's O-D-O-O dot com. Top players, they have an ego. And Mo Salah's been one of the best players in the league for a long time. And I question his work ethic. And he's, you know, could get sacked. And, you know, he's had six or seven games. It's absolutely crazy. No, we could get our swords back. Alex Ferguson was the only one who got it back. I didn't think I'd start this podcast up here. I didn't get my swords back.

1:09So we've done it, guys. We're here, we're all together, ready to watch KCURD perform live. Are you nervous that we're going to watch it? You always get a little bit nervous before some gigs, but yeah, it'll be fun to see you guys in the crowds. Are you able to see us? I'm nervous for them. I'm just nervous he's going to start throwing stuff out of me. We're not in the front row, are we? No, no, no, you're not at the front row. I never have people I know around the front row where I could see them. Okay. It's just because I'd rather just have people that are strangers. Okay, fair enough. Before we go any further, as you can see, it's not just the three of us in it.

1:42So we've got a special guest with us today as well. John Gibbon joining us from the Anfield Wrap. I wish I could say it was to talk about happier times. Let's have some perspective here. Premier League champions had a wonderful start to the season. The last week's been a bit tougher. No it has, yeah. To be honest, we always thought, I think most Liverpool fans thought it might take a while into the season to get going and then we were winning every week and you do get carried away as a supporter. You're like, oh maybe we're just going to blow the league away this year. Maybe it's going to be similar to last season where we just put this great points total.

2:16I think the last three games the last week's been a bit of a reality check and we've realised that maybe we are a little bit further away than what we were hoping. but like you say, still not in a bad position and a long way to go. I think there was worrying signs from the start. I know obviously Liverpool win the games but they weren't winning them in the way it was last season. I think there was signs there that weren't quite right. I think the last week has shown that. He clearly doesn't trust any of the right-backs he's playing and the rotation and where it's coming in and it maybe affected the balance of the midfield there last season.

2:55So I think it's a big challenge now because with the players, new players coming in, having to get that mentality of winning every week. Yeah, I think it's a big challenge for Liverpool. I think you've got to really look at it and try and change it. It's a challenge for the manager, but you've got to think it's a challenge he wants, doesn't it? Because last year, you know, he didn't really get any of his own players and it was pretty much Jürgen's team. and he did make some tactical changes to it, particularly with Gravenberg and how he used him and he got a bit more out of Mo Salah, so you think, well, fair play to that.

3:26But now he's brought in a number 10, which I think he always played with in Holland and what he wanted. The money they've spent on the forwards, you know, he'd be delighted by. So he's got this international break now and I'm sure he'll be, you know, whether he goes back home to Holland, I don't know, but I'm sure he'll be spending a lot of time thinking, well, how do I make this work? Because I think it is fair to say it isn't quite, the balance isn't quite right of the team. either going forward or at the back really there seems to be spaces where there wasn't last season and also with the ball creatively it's just sort of a little bit slower and that can happen when you're still getting to know your teammates it's not quite as fluid, they're all having to think a little bit more and look up where is my teammate, whereas last year it was you could almost do it with their eyes closed so it's a bit tough to watch at the moment but he's a great manager and a great footballer so you've got to back them to get it right sooner rather than later.

4:19Do you think it's too much change too soon? It's a lot I think, I think it's more than what you'd like, it's funny because as fans you always want transfers don't you, you always want the shiny new thing but the two league titles that we've won, they've done it without making any transfers at all, last year it was Chieser and the year Klopp won it I think they just brought in a sub goalie and so the continuity, there's a lot to be said for it but as fans and probably managers as well you always want to improve but I think there is a little bit of a lesson there. There is a lot. I think there's a couple of players who've left, you know, someone like Luis Diaz, who was a really great player for Liverpool and would frustrate people sometimes with streaky scoring or whatever, but he was a battler for the team.

5:02He was an outlet. And, you know, and I think a few players like that who've gone out and maybe people have realised and actually they were doing a lot for the side there who aren't there now. So, but you look, there's so much talent in the team as well that you just think, you know, you're just hoping it'll click sooner rather than later. Yeah, I think Trent a big loss. Yeah. There was obviously a lot of debate whether he was the best defender or he couldn't defend, but I just think, you know, some of the passes he played through to Salah in particular and switches a play, I think that's a big loss for Liverpool.

5:34And also, I think, with the players coming in, with Isak and TK and Wirt, the money they've spent on them, what does Salah think now? Because I think players and top players, they have an ego. They have a bit of an ego. And Mo Salah's been one of the best players in the league for a long time. I think the last week has shown something. When it's going well and you're scoring goals and you're winning games, I think it's great and the team will put up with that. But I think over the last week, I think ag questions work, I think. And we know he doesn't always get back and defend as much, but I think last night, the Chelsea game, I thought, you know, his full-back is getting torn apart and he's watching, he's not getting back, he's not helping.

6:23I think players like Van Dijk and obviously Alisson weren't playing yet, but them leaders in that test room, they should be telling them, you know, you need to help out. And for me, that was a worry. And I think he's looked a little bit lost over the last week, in my opinion. I think lost is maybe how he feels. And he's made a couple of interesting comments to the media this season about, you know, I think when he said Arsenal, he felt Arsenal were favourites because they had the continuity and things like that. And I think a few people said it was mind games. I don't think he's really like that.

6:54I think he's pretty honest. And there was the comments on social media where he'd sent someone say about all the upgrade up front and he was like, don't speak too badly about the guys that are gone. And that was a real insight to me that he actually really valued what they were doing for him. And like you say, Wayne, the team was built around them last year, but then when you sign players like Isaac and Vert, then you're not necessarily going to abandon Mo Salah, but it is going to change the way you're playing. You think, well, how is this team built now and is he just another player? And not necessarily how he feels about that, but are you going to get the same levels of output from him?

7:28He loved playing with Trent, those early balls that Trent would hit him with over the top and find him in space. Those incredible long passes, he's lost that now up front. Darwin Nunes, divided opinion, but Mo Salah loved him because he'd do a lot of his work, he'd do a lot of his chasing. I don't think Sal has been doing as much defensive work for a couple of years now, but they were helping him and Sir Bosley. Certainly over the last six months, the people I know, Liverpool fans in Liverpool, was on his back, but that's what I was saying before, because he's scoring goals and winning, you get away with it.

8:00But I think the best managers see that and they adjust. I'm not saying they leave him out of the team. We had it with Ronaldo at Man United where similarly he wouldn't tap back as much until Fergie moves him inside. so you've still got that balance of the team you've still got that work getting done but he moved him inside so he's still on the pitch because he's always got a chance of scoring goals and win games and I think when you get a little bit older as well I think Slott maybe could have looked at that yesterday and thought you know what Chelsea are killing us down inside move him inside a little bit even if you put Wirt out there and still have that work ethic behind you but then have that brilliant salary to go and try and score goals so I think that's just if I was a Liverpool fan it'd be a little bit of a concern to me Also, I think that's something we've, you've talked about the turnover of players.

8:45Let's not forget this is a group that lost one of their teammates in the most tragic circumstances over the summer. Do you think that could be kind of having a bearing in terms of the feeling around the group? It must be a little bit. It's really hard, isn't it, to know exactly. And probably only ever really with time. You will know. I remember we did something on Kelly Dagleish resigning in 91 and you spoke to people about that. and at the time Hillsborough wasn't really sort of talked as part of it and then he looked back now and said, well, of course it was having an effect on him. And so I think sometimes when you're in the moments in your games and you think, well, you know, the players will want to use it as an excuse.

9:21So that's sort of first of all, but also they probably don't quite know how much it's affecting them now. And maybe they'll look at a couple of years' time and go, well, how do we even sort of go out there and play? Because he is the friend and I think as fans we need to remember that because as fans, you know, we were devastated as well and he meant so much to them, but he was their mate. do you know what I mean? They saw him every day in the club and so it can't be discounted at all but how much of it is affecting them it is really hard to say. I think there's just so many different things there's the jota there's you know losing Diogo there's the idea of a lot of transition there's the manager trying to just change the team into something else and how that works and then sometimes players are just a bit out of form as well so there's a it's just a lot of combination of things I think happening at the moment that are all leading so it's not looking quite right I think when you bring so many new players in and the amount of times you hear people talking about the mentality of a player I think it's really important Liverpool obviously is a massive club and you're expected to win every game and I remember when I went from Everton to Man United if we won two games in a row at Everton you'd have to think okay it doesn't matter actually if we lose next game you're a time winner of course but it takes that bit of pressure off, it doesn't really matter.

10:37But when you go to a big club and you're challenging for everything, you have to win every game. You have to have that mindset of winning every game and some of the players that Liverpool have brought in, I think they need to get used to that. They need to get used to that feeling of winning the game and just moving on and trying to win the next game rather than focusing on the game you've just won and feeling happy about it. It's almost like you're programmed to just get on with it and then at the end of the season, you can relax and enjoy it. But I think that mentality is not used enough in terms of when you bring so many new players in, they have to really find that quick.

11:15I still think we haven't seen some of the best of some of the players at the moment either, like Wurtz and Isaac. I feel like they've still got a lot more to give than what we've seen so far. I don't know what you'd think. We are only a few games in as well. There's a bit of perspective. Yeah, I think for the players coming in, they probably could have done with a few of the existing players being in better form so you look at someone like McAllister who was one of our players of the year last season he's really struggled that if it's an injury or what but he's not playing the best canata he's been really up and down I don't know if that's the the contract situation or not but he's not playing well you know right back there's there's a few issues like sort of Wayne said and so I think if you're if you're someone like Florian Verti think I don't wouldn't mind them coming into the team last year that was really pairing then I'm just adding if Isaac obviously had the long time where he was just training on his own or I don't know what he was doing but you know he hasn't sort of looked quite fit and so you've had this issue really where that some of the lads who were coming in it's taken them a while to get up to speed but then the ones who were there can't really sort of carry them through it but like I said I think there is so much talent like I'm not worried I'm not concerned but I'm not going to sit here and pretend as well that oh we've just been really unlucky with two late goals because it's not really been like that.

12:24There's a difference with For Isak, for instance, how he played for Newcastle, he attacked the space a lot and ran him behind a lot and a little bit more on transition with Newcastle. But you come to Liverpool, you go into the champions and teams are sitting back, so it's a different skill set. It's more with your back to goal and that space isn't there behind, so you have to think a bit more to try and find the space. I think Eka TK has been brilliant at that. He's more of a number 10, really, and that's helped him because he's getting in these little pockets. but with Isak it's a different way of playing to what he was at Newcastle so it'll be interesting to see how he adapts to them It's alright though because their next game is pretty easy isn't it?

13:02I'm not looking forward to it honestly Liverpool it's a doubt it's Manchester United and that was a joke No but that fixture for Man United in recent years has been sort of a graveyard for managers it's usually after a Liverpool match that everybody sort of knows whether it's a sinking ship or not so hopefully yeah hopefully we get a decent result out of it but yeah I think it's a good time to play Liverpool I'd rather have them now once than when they've got everybody else up to speed I thought the ball's in your court now I think it's left for you to pick up on that I think it's a perfect game for us to be honest with you coming out of not necessarily about speaking Man United down but I just mean you know coming out of a really challenging week a really disappointing week you know three losses then you've got the international break I'd rather come back to a really big game, a really fiery game, a game where they're going to be up for it.

13:55They know exactly what's needed. The crowd's going to be there. I'd rather come back to that than maybe a game, you know, home or a tougher away game or something like that. I think it's, I take the points, but I think it's a good one for Liverpool to come back to because if you've been Man United 2-3-0, I don't care what Man United it is, if you've been Man United 2-3-0, everyone's up, everyone's positive again. And so I think it's a really good game for us to come back to. The break has come at a good time for Liverpool, So I think it's a good time to get away from each other. Sometimes when you're not in the best of form, being around each other every day, sometimes that's not good as well.

14:32So just to get away from each other, the players will go off to the different countries. And for Man United, it's obviously a bad time on the back of a win. So I think it was a good time to reflect for Arnie Slott, for the players. Players go away and they take their mind off Liverpool for the next 10 days and folks on the country. So I think it's a good time for Liverpool to go away reflecting and then for the manager as well to look at, because he has made tactical changes. He's had three midfield, two midfield, full backs. I think it's a good time for him to really just have a little sit back on it and have a look and then for them to try and regroup.

15:12John, thank you for joining us. I'm sorry it wasn't to talk happier things. No, it's been a real pleasure. I feel bad at all the things he used to sing about Wayne now. Do you want to say anything? You probably can't say anything on here. Absolutely not. We'll let you go so you don't have to sit here and listen to our next topic, which because it's quite rare, but we're going to talk about a Manchester United win. Probably don't want to talk about that. No, no, enjoy while it lasts. This is summer at its peak. Whole Foods Market Summer Fruit Fest is your invitation to eat the season. Fresh, organic and bursting with flavour.

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16:25Well, this is quite rare, isn't it, that we're coming on? In fact, it's not rare. We seem to do it every other week because Manchester United don't ever win two games in a row, it feels like. So we did it two weeks ago. Was it two weeks ago you won? Yeah, I think so, yeah. Then you lost last week. Yeah. Then you won this week. Yes. So we can talk about something positive. Just, by the way, as Manchester City are kicking off against Brentford. So if anything big happens in that, then... Sorry. Sorry. Yeah, there we go. Yeah, basically. Manchester United, are you feeling buoyed? It's nice to have a keeper that knows what he's doing, even if he nearly got sent off.

16:59But yeah, it was, I mean, I think it was a bit premature with a fan singing, are you Schumacher in disguise? But I think it's been so long that we've had a keeper that just does the basics right, that everyone was just happy that he was making saves and stuff. So it was positives, but I'm not getting carried away yet. and I feel like it was a brilliant goal from Mason Mount. He played really well. Yeah, he did, yeah. But yeah, let's put a couple more wins together. I'm not going to hammer you too much, because I remember last time Wayne was like, hey, just enjoy it, just enjoy it. Yeah, no, I think the keeper done well.

17:36He obviously had the misjudgment where he's come out the box, and that could end up in a different way. But I thought in the main, he simplified things, which for a keeper is not a bad thing. He didn't take too many touches on the ball. He got the ball forward quick. And it was effective. Sesko has been good at winning headers in the air and Bermot running behind him. So I actually thought Manchester United got the tactics right yesterday. I think Ameren slightly changed his tactics and went with two forwards up top. And it worked, certainly for the first 30 minutes. Sutherland had to change it early on in the first half.

18:15And then from there, they've seen the game out well. Sonnen didn't really cause that many problems. So, yeah, the result was the most important thing. What did you think of Cescou? I think he's a handful. I think he uses his body well. He challenges for balls and it makes it easier for him, Bumo, and Cunha when he's on a mount to make runs in behind him. So I think that's clearly something they've worked on. But, yeah, and obviously getting another goal, I think, will help him. So I think for all the players, the win was massive. For the manager, the win was massive and much needed. And I think the players, or Ruben Amorim at least, has been taking heed of what you've said.

18:54Listening to your comments, he referred to them, not you specifically, on Friday in his press conference and said that, yes, they're all aware of the criticism. Yeah, well, I'm sure they are. I think, listen, I said it when I made them comments, it's not something I really want to do, but I feel you have to tell the truth on it. and Rumer Amor himself has been critical of the players and it went long ago he was telling us it was the worst Man United team in the history of the club and so that's him being honest and if that's his thoughts that's his thoughts but for the players they have to keep focus on what they're doing and he's the manager listening to what he's saying and tactically what he wants and try and win games and that's the only way it changes really unfortunately I've been there as a player and being criticised as a player and you have to just try and focus on your job and try and win games and Manchester United you know it's still one of the biggest clubs in the world so you have to expect to be criticised when you don't win or don't play well and on the flip side to that the benefit of playing well and winning games are huge Yeah I mean him coming out saying oh my system works it's just that my players don't believe in it because you lot say it doesn't work it's like well it's your job to make them believe like the media are going to speak, aren't they?

20:14It's like Man United, they're going to speak about you every week. So like Wayne said, the best way to stop the media saying the system doesn't work is you stringing a few wins together. So hopefully that does happen. OK, so next three games then. We've already discussed Liverpool. You think it's a good time to play Liverpool. We'll revert back to that comment after the game. I'm not saying we'll win, but it's a good time to play them. Then you've got Brighton at home. Then Nottingham Forest away. There's no easy games in the Premier League. I'm going to sound like a Premier League manager. Forest could have a new manager by then.

20:43alright let's talk about that then Wayne it's crazy it's true it's crazy all the rumours you've heard and there's Ang is you know could get sacked and you know what's he had six or seven games he's had it it's absolutely crazy and I like Ang I think he's a good manager he obviously struggled in the league with Tottenham last season and then won the Europa League and it was strange obviously Nuno getting sacked at Forest and he's brought Ang in so if he does get sacked I think it's absolutely and I'm not hearing anyone talking about you know the ownership and the decisions they're making they're the ones making the decisions so someone if they do sack them someone has to be responsible for hiring them Yeah it always felt like quite a strange time everything about it felt a little bit strange and that's nothing against Ange Postacoglu he won a trophy with Spurs he's done some brilliant things in football in recent years but it all just felt a bit strange and still does now Yeah I mean I think I feel sorry more for the Forest fans because none of them wanted Nudo to go It's sort of Maranakis' own decisions that have brought this negativity and this sort of result.

21:49It feels unnecessary negativity, doesn't it? They should be celebrating. Yeah, I still think with Nuno, when you go out as a manager and you publicly let information out of what is happening between you and your owner, then you're putting yourself at risk. I think that's the owner. He's the boss. he's paying everyone's wages and so I think you have to have that respect for the owner from that point of view and whatever discussions you have and keep them in house so I think once that started happening it was you could see the end coming But I don't think Nuno started it I mean him coming onto the pitch shouting at him during that game Yeah no that was obviously We also don't know the backdrop too we don't know what's happened behind closed doors No of course yeah So then there's an opening from Angie and they've hired Angie and the difficulty he's got is the style Nuno played to what Ange wants to play is completely different.

22:42I watched him against Burnley, I thought Forrest were very good, and against Real Betis in the Europa League, I thought they were very good in that game as well. And so he's been unlucky on a couple of occasions, and the problem you've got is the Forrest fans really like Nuno, and it doesn't look like they're willing to give Ange the time. They've also had seven games in 22 days, so you talk about these different styles, coming and implementing them mid-season during a period like that. How tough is that for him? I know, I've been there. I've done it in November and I lasted a little bit longer than seven games.

23:20He hasn't been sacked yet. Not much, but no, it is tough because you don't have the time. I've done it in the Championship, so it's continuous games. So you don't have the time really to work with the players on the pitch. It's tough, but Andrew is a good manager. He's won trophies everywhere he's been and I hope he gets the time. But from everything you heard in the Forest fans don't look like they're willing to give them that time. Wayne, you see when you're talking about trying to get your ideas onto players, during that period when there's so many games, what are you doing? Do you have them in doing like sessions on a whiteboard?

23:53Yeah, you're literally in a classroom. You're pulling players individually. You're sitting and playing as a group, as a group of defenders, as attacking players. So you're constantly working to try and implement your style of how you want it, but not obviously being on the pitch and doing it. How do players react to that? How would you have reacted to that? Such a big change in style as well. Yeah, there'll be some players who'll be dieted. You know, as an attacking player, you want to play expansive and open football. No, I mean the fact that you're just being fed this information in a classroom.

24:28Do you soak that in? Yeah, you can. And I think that's the difference with the top players because you can take that in, you can take the details in. The best way to do it is on the pitch. There's no doubt about it. And it looks easy when you can pause the video and you can move players with all the Piero and stuff. It looks easy. But then the problem you've got is the pitch, it completely changes in a split second and it looks completely different. So you can only get that from being on the pitch. So you can give them as much information as you want, but actually until you're on that pitch the picture changes constantly which might change your decision to pass the ball here or to go long whatever that is you can only get that from being on the training pitch Talking of managers seeing a couple of managers sent off again this weekend Vitor Pereira was sent off for kicking the ball in frustration of course Wolves were leading for long portions that game against Brighton then Drew Wonell still waiting for their first win of the season have you ever had anything like that on the touchline?

25:29Yeah I got sent off for Plymouth I kicked a bottle in one of the Plymouth fans actually and I got a straight red card and yeah again it's there's pressures to the job and Wolves obviously not winning the game and he's you know he's frustrated and they've conceded the equaliser and you know we've seen a few managers sent off this week haven't we and you know it's tough there's a lot of pressure and as we were talking about Tange before you know you don't know whether they'll have to time I know Pereira's just signed a new deal but you know Things change quickly for the manager. It's a lot of frustration there.

26:06What happened when you were sent off? Talk me through that. As a manager, you have to go and watch the rest of the game in the dressing room, is that right? Yeah, you're not allowed back out on the pitch, in the stands. So you're meant to be in the dressing room. I stood in the tunnel and stood behind the Stewart. What, in disguise? I could still see the game. We won, actually. We scored a late winner. So I think I ended up on the pitch. a game but yeah no you're in the dressing room I'm sure managers will find a place where you can still see the game So they went on to win without you on the touchline suggesting they were playing with more freedom without you there Yeah but the next game I was in the stands and we lost 5-0 so Fair enough it's always quite interesting when you see managers sent off because I wonder how much of a bearing that actually has on the team Yeah but some of the sending off some really weird like Maresca's won for celebrating I was just like the game's good man let the guys celebrate it's just a last minute winner he's come under a bit of scrutiny you never know what it's like at Chelsea you could lose your job for anything at Chelsea but yeah I love seeing managers get that emotion some of them moments of managers celebrating after games are very iconic my favourite is Klopp when his glasses fell off and then you think of Mourinho at Old Trafford for Porto and Mourinho again for Intermland at Barcelona it shows the passion to get sent off for celebrating.

27:32It was a bit like I could TK the week before. I suppose they both know that they're running the risk and that's the rules, so they probably know they're going to get sent off. But sometimes you can't control that emotion. But even the ones where you hit a ball into the crowd, it's not like you're affecting the game. I should have asked this before. This maybe suggests I'm not a nice person. To check, was the fan all right that you kicked the ball at? It was a water bottle right on the chest. to him yeah fine yeah did you go and apologise yeah you'd be buzzing wouldn't you if you had you'd take the water bottle but thankfully it was a Plymouth fan I don't mean I mean that could if it was an away fan I'm sure they'll you know have taken more action but it's not like you've kicked that like going I'm going to hit a fan that's why I don't understand why they're giving you a red card there's no malicious intent behind it if you apologise I think you still do need to try and control emotions but sometimes that boils over and you get frustrated.

28:32It was a terrible decision by the referee and you know, on the Monday we got feedback from the decision and it was a completely wrong decision but then when that happened your emotion boils over. I think we need more emotion. It goes back to what you said the other week doesn't it? Bring back more passion. Bring back more passion. I want to see more managers get animated and lose their rag. Okay, end of pod and I'm joking. Just a quick word, it's been a really brilliant weekend for you in general because Everton won as well we actually were watching that before we came in here and witnessed you celebrating the goals and jack off the mark too yeah great finish as well no I just loved I said it at the time he celebrated so hard and I think he celebrated so hard because he wanted to be like that is my goal because it was like you said it wasn't the best goal was it but he wanted to be sure that he was getting that it's a goal to goal and that's a massive win for Everton Palace obviously 19 games to come from behind and win I'm absolutely delighted to meet little boy was there today as well so for him I think it's the first time he's seen Everton win obviously at the stadium so I'm looking forward to speaking to him and get the feedback from him I can't keep up with which son which family member supports who in your family is that your youngest son?