Man United 'Have Lost Their Soul', Arsenal's Win & Wirtz Doubts

0:00This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK.

0:30at Whole Foods Market. Running a business shouldn't feel like surviving a software group project. One app for accounting, another for inventory, another for sales. And somehow, none of them talk to each other. That's where Odoo comes in. An all-in-one business management software that brings every part of your business together. From sales and accounting to inventory and marketing, all in one powerful platform. No messy integrations. No bouncing between tabs. And best of all, no spreadsheets. Stop managing software and start managing your business with one unified system. Try for free today at odoo.com.

1:07That's O-D-O-O dot com. I was debating before the Commodities. All day I've been debating this to a side of this. What I'm seeing as a football club is not Manchester United. The club at the minute is completely broken. And I don't recognise it at all. Right now I put Ekitek in there. Isak has proven in the Premier League he can do that but he has to come and prove he can do it at Anfield different completely different the house the house he didn't sign to get me though that's my favourite part of the show so far not anything you said Wayne I'm okay for now thank you

1:49Ryder Cup weekend then guys Wayne you've been watching you enjoy a bit of golf yeah I've loved it I've watched as much as I can the last couple of days and I think it's been brilliant to tour Justin Rose incredible Tommy Fleetwood fellow scouser I was actually speaking to Tommy a few weeks ago in a local shop where we both buy our clothes and so happy for him he got his big win in the PGA and doing well obviously in the Ryder Cup and then obviously Rory as well so Europe especially Kay you into your golf you've kind of been just keeping abreast cheering on Team Europe because they're doing well?

2:28I mean, no, I don't watch golf at all. I'm not going to come here and lie. I think I could have guessed that. I don't know what that means, but all right, thank you. Let's move on to some of the football then because I actually thought this has been one of the best weekends of Premier League action for quite some time. The Saturday 3pm kick-offs were bonkers. Well, the early game was really good as well. Maybe not if you're of a Manchester United disposition I was meaning as a neutral. We'll talk about that later. Let's start off by talking about Arsenal because they're up to second after coming from behind to win 2-1 late at Newcastle.

3:01They're only two points behind Liverpool now after they drop points against Crystal Palace. Kay, we have been banned, haven't we, from using the phrase mark of champions. But there was a fair bit of controversy in that game. But they did it, didn't they? They came from behind and they won. They came from behind. I mean, if they didn't win that game, there would have been a lot of questions and eyebrows raised. but you know fair play to them it went to the wire and they they had a strong comeback and they did it that Gabriel header was pretty good felt like a game that was big on set pieces and it feels like that's the team Arsenal have become at the moment I just think Arsenal are efficient and I don't know why for some reason I might seem like I'm defending Arsenal on this and or Michael Arteta I think they're efficient I think they've got a very good squad and And I think they're going to come into something special.

3:56Like, for instance, if they don't win the game today, a lot of people will be sitting there saying, oh, it's points dropped. And I think there's something coming with Arsenal and I really like what they're doing. Yeah, psychologically as well, that'll be big, won't it? Because with Liverpool dropping points... Oh, massive. And I think over the last couple of years with Arsenal, there's been things which have happened at St James' Park and they haven't quite got to grips or they haven't come away with the points. and I think this is massive. If you walk into the ring round on Monday morning, Tuesday morning, if you have a day off, whatever that is, I think every Arsenal player, their heads will be high, they'll be really confident.

4:33And also the other thing was, they had a bit of adversity as well, didn't they? There was the penalty decision that they thought they should have had, they didn't get it, they then went behind and they still won. And Wayne, I don't know what you think, but there's been a lot said about Arsenal's mentality perhaps in recent years and maybe a couple of years ago they wouldn't have been able to overcome that. Yeah but I think this is a different Arsenal I think the mentality is good I think they are a strong minded team they've got good characters in there and to win the Premier League you have to overcome challenges you have to go to Newcastle and go behind and stay calm stay relaxed and find a way to win the game I think that's what Arsenal have done today and that's what champions do and for whatever reason and listen I don't I don't like Arsenal but I would much rather than win the league than Liverpool but I'm really liking what is going on and even even at Anfield when you know everyone's having a goal and I did to a little to a little bit but I like what they're doing they're figuring out they're finding a way they're being difficult to be they don't conceive many goals and I just think there's something happening and I really hope they do because I really like Arteta as well and he's a bit mad in all his methods but lucky enough to have sat down and have a chat with him at times and I really like him so I hope he did.

6:00Wayne, I love how you're maturing into a pundit because you've said there in a conversation, I don't like Arsenal. So as a fan, you don't like them and as an ex-player, but you're like, I'm a mature pundit and I'm going to say that I hope they do well and I like Mikel Arteta. No, I wouldn't listen. I'd much rather them win the league. I think City will challenge so if it's City, Liverpool and Arsenal then... Best of a bad bunch if it can't be United. Yeah, exactly. It definitely won't be United, that's for sure. I was trying to be nice. Is that dislike for Arsenal kind of from the United rivalry years ago when you were playing?

6:34Not really. I think I come at the back end. Obviously, I was involved in the Roy Keane and Vieira situation but I think I was a little bit... I always liked Tottenham growing up so that was probably it. but no listen we've challenged against Ireland we've tried to compete with them and then Arsenal went away and then we had Chelsea and then we had Liverpool then Man City but yes I don't think as a player I don't think you're very like anyone any team if that makes sense and you don't want anyone to do well and there's always new teams who come and compete so you don't want anyone to win but if you can choose one then you want to choose the right one towards not a left field bringing it back to here and now you won't mind talking about this I'm sure Liverpool suffering their first defeat of the season come on that was a wicked laugh K-Curd we've said it a few times and Wayne you've said like they haven't been at their absolute best but they've still been getting results and they had a 100 % record until yesterday what do you think went wrong or do we just literally need to pay credit to Crystal Palace and how good they were?

7:46I think two things. I think firstly, Crystal Palace, what is happening there over the last year is brilliant to him. And it's great to see, I remember back in 1995 when Everton won the FA Cup. That is my standout, my only moment as a fan to enjoy and celebrate my team winning silverware. So, and then I was obviously, I was there doing TV for the game and it brought memories back and watching them celebrate, speaking to the managers, speaking to the owner and then how they've continued with everything, what's going on, losing players and nearly losing the captain. I think they've been incredible.

8:26So I think that's the first thing. And the second thing, I think the setting off to Ekotike is bigger than what people think. I think he's a superstar and I think he can affect Liverpool in so many different ways. And of course, you've got Isaac and I think XDK, I think that loss was massive. I think it's worth slapping£20 on Crystal Palace winning the league, you know. There's crazier things about it. I wouldn't go that far. It is a bit of a crazy league though, isn't it? Like Sunderland up, I mean, I know it's only September. Yeah, no, it is only September. It is a bit tongue-in-cheek, but wilder things have happened.

9:08But I do think the way Oliver Glasner's got them organised and playing and there's a lot of momentum around them. The fan base is buoyant. The way you were talking about Arsenal, I think there's something special going on at Palace right now as well. And any time you watch them, they do make it difficult for people to try and beat them. But that's, I don't want to go back to it, but that's when I look at Man United and I'm like, I'm watching Chris Palace play through the back and I'm like, this looks incredible, looks brilliant. there's flair, there's fight, there's desire there's crosses coming in the box, there's shots, there's tackles going in, there's everything you want to see and then when I watch Man United play in the same system I'm like, what is this?

9:59Yeah Do you know what I mean? So the system where we've said change the system, the system works we've seen that, teams have won things that system so what do you think it is Wayne is it misprofiling players in that system or is it that they've got better midfielders what is it do you think that's the difference between the two if we go back to I think week one of us doing this podcast I said the midfield cannot compete in the Premier League and that might sound strange because you've got Bruno Fernandes and you've got Casemiro they cannot compete in this Premier League as a two it doesn't work and as a coach as a manager as a player the players then players will know that then players will see that and understand that and as a manager you have to be adaptable you have to change we've seen it with Wolves last night they changed the system they go and get a point at Tottenham you have to be ready for whatever happens in the game and if you're stubborn and you sit there and you say right this is it this is our system before you know it you'll be gone and the club will change.

11:11Yeah, but I think what you said as well about the desire as well, I think when you look at that Palace team, all of them there want to run, they want to fight, they're doing everything correctly whereas I think sometimes when you see the United players, there are mistakes being made that shouldn't be made at the top level. Mistakes happen, so the players I think care. I've never questioned the players of that. I just don't think they're good enough A word on Oliver Glasner then because I mean he's being touted around he's had a phenomenal time there I was working with a Palace fan last night and I said is he the best manager in your history and he looked at me as if so I can't believe you're even asking that of course he is what do you like about him Wayne?

11:53I've met him a couple of times I just think he's a genuine person and he

12:00I don't think it's just down to him I think the club I think what they've done because the Palace over there the last 10 years I think they've recruited really well and I think it goes down to where they're bringing players from they're bringing players who are hungry they desire who've you know got something to gain and you've got something to look forward to and fight and they're bringing players from the street because the Palace over the last 10 years has reminded me of a street football club when you look at all the players and they come and go and it's still produced them players and where the background where them players are from they can look at it he's from our neighbourhood he's from our state and they continue to and I don't think they've gone away from their values so I think that's really important and special but I think what they've got now is a manager who knows how to win knows how to win trophies he's done it in different countries he's done it in England now with the FA Cup I think it's going to be very difficult for Palace to keep I think what you said about the structure is really important, Steve Parrish was quoted in 2015 saying that Palace could compete for the Premier League in the next 10 to 15 years and lo and behold in 10 years they won an FA Cup when you've got owners that have ambition like that it does go a long way and they've been very smart with the way they buy players and recruit players Like they knew somebody like Alise was a top, top player.

13:37And they got him to sign a new contract because they knew that potentially they weren't going to be able to get hold of him. So they maximized their investment and they were able to get the most money for him that they could. And I just think he's smart with the way he does things. The recruitment has been top notch as well. And they've been able to highlight a manager that, you know, that's doing amazing for them. And they're quite ruthless as well with getting really good. I just think Palace, if you look at the Palace team and squad, it represents the area where they are. Yeah. And I think that's great.

14:13I think you can see that and that's been going on for a number of years now. I was delighted when they won the FA Cup. So, you look at Bilbao in Spain where they only have players who were born from that area. I think Palace, obviously, it's not to that extent, but I think you're seeing young, hungry players from around that area coming through and maybe going on to different clubs. But really giving Palace a lift and the fans a lift. I think at the minute, I'd much rather be at Kirsten Palace right now. Also, a penny, Wayne, for what Mark Gahey might be thinking. Because obviously from the disappointment of missing out on his move to Liverpool, I imagine that would have felt quite sweet on Saturday.

15:03He's in a creeps. I think he's in a creep. I've heard a lot of people, and I've actually thought about this, I've heard a lot of people saying, you know, he's active with class. He showed, obviously, what Isak Dunham and Wissad Dunham. He's active with class. What he's done, he's probably gone into the owner, to the manager and said, listen, I want to leave him. If this club comes in, I want to leave. but he's just gone in and trained he's gone in and been a teammate which you have to do you can't say right I want to leave and not turn up for a week or two weeks he's done his job which he gets paid to do and that's all he's done so I think he's a special player I think he's a good size he's not the tallest but he's good in the air he can play with both feet, he's aggressive and I think he'll be a real top player in the next few years and will he be at Palace?

16:02I really doubt it. Where would you go if you were Mark Geahy though? Where would you go? He'd definitely not have built. He'd definitely... No, listen, I think he'll have options. I think not just in England as well. I think in Europe he'll have options. Yeah, I'd love for him to go to Madrid or something then. I've just got a feeling Arsenal and Chelsea might come in and they might trying to take Liverpool out of it, but Liverpool is, for me, the best city in the world. So, if he does join, that's where he'd be going. Enjoy everything about Liverpool, but I just hope he doesn't, because I think he'll improve them.

16:43This is summer at its peak. Whole Foods Market's Summer Fruit Fest is your invitation to eat the season. Fresh, organic and bursting with flavour. Start your day with peaches and organic blueberries and yogurt. Build a grazing board with fresh fruit, prosciutto and artisanal cheese. Then fire up the grill with no antibiotics ever, proteins and fresh produce. Savour the season. Shop Summer Fruit Fest at Whole Foods Market.

17:16Just a quick word on Florian Vietz before we move on. Big summer signing for Liverpool cost around£100 million plus some add-ons as well. six Premier League games so far what have you made of his start to life at Anfield? Yeah it's been tough for him I don't think there's any denying and he'll be searching deep within himself to try and fix that and try to figure out I think he's played okay and better but I think when you sign so many players like Liverpool have and this is not normal for Liverpool Liverpool don't normally do this and they've signed basically a whole new front line and then you've got Mo Salah there as well so they're all competing they all want to do well they're all fighting against each other to get the team and I think Werther's he's the one who's probably not doing as well but he's got so much ability and for me I don't see where he gets to the team I think it was a lot of money I think it was

18:27I would have went for Eckert TK and Issa I think Wirtz actually damages the balance of Liverpool how they play but he's a top player and I'm sure he will get better of course but he's had a slow start and I think there's no denying him On that I think with a lot of players that go for massive money. I think we're too quick to judge them these days. I mean, look, I'm not a Liverpool fan by any stretch of the imagination, but I've seen what the pressure on big money signings does. So, like, for example, with Harry Maguire or with Paul Pogba, people used to bring up their price tag and any time they had a bad performance, they used to just get hammered in a mini.

19:12It's like, they didn't decide to go for that sort of money. Yeah, but I don't think you actually, when I signed up for Man United, I actually didn't have a clue what the final payment was. That has actually nothing to do with me. Do players not care about that? I'm sure some do and some don't. And for me, that's two clubs doing business. That's it. Well, that's right, Wayne. But when pundits are hammering you, like Paul Pogba, I remember there was one game where he assisted like two or three assists in a game and they said, well, that's what you expect from a player with that fee. And it was like, if he didn't reach those benchmarks, they used to hammer him every week.

19:50whereas I think that's a bit unfair it's a tad bit unfair as well like players like Harry Maguire had the same thing I think with Florian Virch you give him a I think let him let him see out the season and then we can start yeah no of course and players it takes time I've seen players come into this league and it takes time for me it's not the price tag it's not the player and visibility I don't see where he fits into what Liverpool do and that system yeah yeah I agree I agree here so is he a third midfield player? For me, no, he's more of a tackling player so if I had to choose between him and Sobisle then I'd choose Sobisle so I think if you change the system around I think it'd be different and why would you do that if you're Liverpool?

20:37Obviously he'd lost the last game so I think that's a bit unfortunate and that's where Liverpool have signed these players who you can't play them all and if you tie and put them on the team it can cause problems it can cause friction between players and I've seen it happen. Ekka TK 1 million percent is in competition with Isak Do you think this is where Slott's man management is going to come into it? Because I already saw at a press conference at the end of the game he's already blaming some of his players for like publicly Well that's what Dutch managers do they're honest with you and they'll say if it's good or bad but what you've got now is you've got a real competition between two forwards who are slightly different Ekotika and Isak and who wants it more who's going to do that little bit more who's going to score the goals who's going to create goals right now I put Ekotika in there Isak has proven in the Premier League can do that but yes completely different going to Anfield and playing in front of that crowd and the history and the atmosphere and the pressure of going to play at Anfield completely different XTK has took it quite quickly everything I've seen at the minute Isak has not been able to do that so quickly I'm sure when he gets fit that'll change but at the minute the house that's my favourite part of the show so far.

22:18Not anything you said, Wayne. I'm okay for now, thank you.

22:24Just to clarify, Wayne, you're not at home. You don't have housekeeping at home, do you? No, I don't. That's hilarious. She's persistent, though.

22:37Okay, well, on that note, let's move on. I've often referred to this show as being a bit like therapy for you two, Manchester United. fans all of a sudden Wayne's camera went a bit dodgy and I thought he was going to pretend that his line had gone and he didn't want to talk about this I think both of you actually brought it up within the Palace chat without any prompting at all so you're obviously ready to talk about it I could give you about 30 seconds I mean we don't need to repeat everything we've repeated for weeks on end do we Wayne? I was debating whether to talk about it or not because I don't really want to because I know I end up saying something I shouldn't but then I feel like do I have to like it's just not good enough from the manager from the coaches from the players it's not good enough in the record the points the style of play the system the fans don't say are we picking up points are we I don't know what's going on and listen I've tried my hand in management and didn't work out too well so I get it I'm not Ruben Aron he's my age looks a little bit younger I get that but he's still a young manager I'm sure he's got a massive future but what is going on at Man United this is not Man United I don't recognise the whole football club I don't see players fighting I don't see character I don't see desire to win I don't see ability I don't see match winners nothing gets me off my feet I go into a game watching expecting okay here we go again expecting the team to lose or maybe pick up a point.

24:17This is not Man United. But do you know what? That's so important that you say that. Nowadays, I don't even get surprised when we lose. And it's just more like you start just shrugging your shoulders and go, yeah, we've lost again. And that's look how far we've fallen. That shouldn't be like that. But I was debating before I come on this. All day, I've been debating this. Do I say this? Shall I say it? Because I know it's going to bring pressure and it's going to... go into the media and it's going to get picked up and the manager's going to get asked questions about it but I feel I need to I care for the club I was at the football club for 13 years and what is going on is not right and this is not all on the manager by the way this is I'm seeing players not deserving to wear their shirt and it hurts when you've been in a football club for that long and you care for the club this is not acceptable what is going on and Man United haven't won back-to-back games for I don't know how long Since January There needs to be I think there needs to be a clear message a clear message from the owners whether that's the Glazers whether that's Ratcliffe whether that's there has to be a message of where this club is going because at the minute we're all sitting there waiting for it to crumble Well even last week I said I'd lost faith in a manager and you were telling me to stay positive but it's like even Yeah I know I was trying to I was trying to give you all that.

25:42He did just say, just enjoy the win because I don't know. No, I know. I know. I know. But it's hard when you, even in a game where you win, you still see things where you're like, if it was another day, we're going to lose. And then lo and behold, the Brentford game happened. And it's just the same things keep happening again. Who is the team? Yeah. Like, if you said to me, like, there's a blank piece of paper. Give me an identity. show me what this team is what it means I would not have a clue what to put down and I'm not seeing anything which is giving me any confidence that's going to change there needs to be changes there needs to be big changes in my opinion Do you mean not just the manager you mean above that and I thought it's something there Manager players whatever that is whatever it takes to get Manchester United back to I'm not stupid that it's not going to change in half but But the culture of that football club is gone.

26:42I see it on a daily basis. The culture is gone. What do you mean by that, Wayne? Well, I see staff losing jobs, people walking out of jobs. I've got two kids at that football club and I really hope this doesn't affect what they're doing. What I'm seeing at that football club is not Manchester United. when you go back to the you know Munich 58 then you win the European Cup in 68 and Busby and Alex Ferguson that is Manchester United the passion, the desire to fight the heart the culture everything about that club the club at the minute is completely broken and I don't recognise it at all I think the reason it's also come into focus this weekend sorry Wayne is because obviously Graham Potter was sacked and I think there's been a lot of comparisons between Potter's record at West Ham to Amarim at Manchester United.

27:42Amarim's record is 32 points in 35 games, 21 games lost in less than a year, never won consecutive Premier League games. West Ham have picked up more points than Manchester United since Amarim came in. Do you know what the worst part about this is? We didn't even have a new manager bounce. This went straight into misery. Do you know if this was Mourinho, you'd probably sit there and say, okay we know he can probably get us either or he'll figure it out and I don't think any of us can sit there and say that honestly after everything I've just said that honestly hope he can turn around and he does but if you're saying to me do you believe he will then after everything I've seen I honestly I've got no faith in it well that's what what you said there is key Wayne it's like every stat that you see all the evidence stacks up against him and the only things that you have to keep faith are all hypothetical and it's like you can't deal with hypotheticals in this game it's not even just the results on the pitch mate, I think it's everything at the minute, and it needs fixing Jim Ratcliffe and Ineos have walked into a big challenge and we're seeing staff members getting sacked after 20, 30 years and who are very important people to that football club and that soul has gone from the club it needs a new energy it needs a new lease of life and it needs something to kick start that football club go and put Roy Keane right in the heart of that dressing room go and put Paul Schold right in the heart of that dressing room Wayne Rooney?

29:27I'd go straight in there and go and put these people in that dressing room and show people what this club is what it means I never grew up a Man United fan I grew up an Everton fan but I spent that much time at the football club my family over like my two children now at the football club I've been involved in that club for over 20 years and what we're seeing it hurts it's my only my eldest boy has seen Man United win a Premier League title me youngest my second boy is nearly 13 my kids don't know what Man United is being successful I want them to see that I can go on all day I tell you what Wayne, let's try and end on a positive and happier times for Kay as well it's 21 years today, Sunday, since your debut for Manchester United against Furnabacce, firstly, does that make you feel old because it wasn't meant to secondly are the memories still as vivid to this day yeah in the dressing room I always remember sitting in the dressing room but once I was on the pitch then it becomes a bit of a blur so before the game in the dressing room and then after the game I was actually living in a hotel at the time the Old Edge Hotel and it was weird I went back after the game and at the match ball it was like what just happened I just got a hat-trick for Man United on my debut so yeah it was a weird feeling proud moment and scary as well I suppose like going into the game I was nervous I was scared I was a scouser 18 year old scouser going to play for Man United yeah that doesn't happen all the time so yeah there was loads of different emotions but ultimately proud what was your favourite for three goals?

31:23obviously I liked the third one being a free kick but I think the first one I'm even being honest I had no idea it was always left foot that's what I love about that game though it was left foot right foot and a free kick it was like a perfect hat for you with your left foot you just try and get a good contact but the first one just that release of like you know I'm here I think that was my favourite yeah and what was it like in the aftermath of that because you said going back to the hotel was weird But waking up the next morning, you know, like sometimes if you've had a really good night out or something's happened, the next day it's almost a bit like, did that really happen?

32:02Did you feel like that? Yeah, that was my first ever scored Hattrick as a kid. But that was my first Hattrick as a professional player. And it was mad, it was weird. and I don't think people realised how tough it was being a scourcer to play for Man United it's a big deal, it's a tough thing and you had to embrace it, you had to throw yourself into it I went into that club with everything I had I think the fans can see that, me teammates can see that from the minute I went in and if you didn't it could be very difficult like for instance I know they play for different clubs if you ask Steven Gerrard or Carragher would you play for Man Utd there's no chance and you ask some Everton players Scouts lads who they wouldn't do it just because the Liverpool Manchester thing so I've done it I took the challenge and yeah I'm proud I've been in Manchester since and it's a very very proud man from Liverpool.

33:13You've mentioned it a few times today. Yeah, no, I am, but I've actually lived in Cheshire, Manchester, more than I have in Liverpool, so go and see this house. Okay, that's where we'll leave it today, guys. The housekeeping lady can come in, Wayne. You can tell her that you can have your room clean now. Kay, have a good week. Is she gone? She's gone. I think so. Kay, have a good week. Where's the tour this week? I'll be in Scotland. I'm in Glasgow, Edinburgh, then I'm in Newcastle, York and Manchester. Up north. Yeah, next Sunday I'm in Manchester. So I'll either see you guys in person or I'll be doing this backstage.

33:49Yes, we are hoping to make that one. So looking forward to it. Okay, well, we'll be back. Before then, we'll be back on Friday. And a reminder, as always, you can watch the Wayne Rooney Show on the BBC Sport YouTube and iPlayer or you can listen on BBC Sounds.

34:26We'll be right back. beating the Chiefs convincingly in Super Bowl 59. Five lives for NFL. Listen on BBC Sounds.