Michael Owen... Who Was Better At 18?

20:51Michael Owen:you learn it don't you but I think the top finishers are different like you might get someone who is in front of the goal and he scores it's an unbelievable finish but consistently can't do it the top players and finishers they're consistent with the finishing and that's what you've seen before where you're practising and learning it's ingrained in your memory so whether you know and stuff but what I will say is when Michael come to United I see him first and the work he's having to put in to get on the pitch because obviously he's had his injuries and I was fortunate but to actually get on the pitch and see the work, it was Uffy he used to do a lot of work with so that must have been I didn't have to do that but that must have been so difficult for you to go through all that constantly and just to try and get yourself fit to play

21:43Wayne Rooney:Yeah, no, you do look at some footballers and you just think you were born lucky as well, you know, like, oh, you don't, you've never been injured. And we all put hard work in, but some people just don't get injured. They're not, you know, I was born to be injured in many ways. My dad was a footballer and he was rapid and he got loads of muscle injuries. My brothers and sisters are all rapid and they got loads of muscle injuries competing at high level sprinting and all the rest of it. It's just, you know, it's just there. you don't see any slow taxis breaking down do you see formula one you know the faster you go the more susceptible you you are and i was tuned to go fast and uh as much as that gave me a huge advantage it turned out to be a huge disadvantage the best b2b marketing gets wasted on the wrong

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24:20Wayne Rooney:I think I think one thing I did want to ask was you both came through and there was massive hype about both of you because you like sort of announced yourself on the biggest stage. I don't think you see so much of that anymore With like youngsters And do you think there's a reason for that? Because they're not as good Fair enough No genuinely They can be as good Of course they can be as good But when Who's like the last Wayne Rooney Like That's come along There would be If we had Jamal If he was in There would be that hype Do you not think there's been a bit with Jude Bellingham? Yeah There's been a fair bit of hype Jude Bellingham's one I think Yeah I think He's had a fair bit of hype

24:59Michael Owen:I think you remind me of me in ways of terms of how frustrated he gets and his desire to win. And you can see sometimes it overheats on the pitch from that point of view. But I think now there's so many young players coming through. When Michael come through, you know, probably Stephen and Michael come through. When I come through, I was in an Everton team where the next youngest player was 24, 25. where now we're seeing 16, 17, 18 year olds in a group coming through together and they've almost eased in a little bit if you like where we were that's it, you're in, you're playing you've got to you're out of the good or off it's like sink or swim

25:38Wayne Rooney:it's like thrown in a deep end and like the strongest made it how did you deal with all of that at that time? for both of you Wayne's spoken about it a bit before on this show in terms of like that pressure the overnight success and he's spoken a lot about the people that were around him how did you deal with all of that? the people around you are massively important. If you've got the right, obviously family is hugely important, but you can't change that. But the right people around you, I mean, fortunately, I'm sure Wayne will say the same, amazing family, supportive and keep your feet on the ground.

26:13Wayne Rooney:But if you can get the right advice as well, you know, agent and people around you that you're going to listen to for advice, then that's pretty critical as well, I would say. in terms of pressure i don't buy it um i don't really believe in it uh you know you're going out there to play we've already explained how we felt going into playing a world cup or european championship when you're 18 years of age there is no there's nothing pressure is if you said describe your emotions i'd probably give you about 10 emotions before i think of the word pressure it's excitement it's like this is this is your life this is what you always do it's like you're about to play football it's not like you're about to you know get killed it's it's football it's a it's a fun game you don't think of repercussions you don't think of scars you don't think of anything that you've failed in the past you're just 80 going onto a pitch against Argentina in my case against you know France or Portugal in in Waz's case it's just excitement and it's, there's no, now I'm 46, I look back and think, wow, there's like 60 million people at home and if you miss a penalty or if you do something wrong, you could be, that could scar you for life.

27:31Wayne Rooney:There might be an effigy being burnt off you or you might have a pizza advert, you know, and things like that. So you sort of get it now, but at 18, I'm not thinking of failing.

27:41Michael Owen:I think the older you get, like going into the, the last tournament I had with England in 2016. I think then you start to realise, obviously I went in as captain as well and into the tournament and you start thinking, right, if this doesn't go well, then more than likely I'm going to be the one who gets the blame for it and potentially could be the end of your England career. So the older you get, I think the more you're understanding, you think a bit more about it. But certainly that first couple of tournaments, I don't think you're thinking, I think you're more thinking, like we're going to win this if we win this I'm going to score the winner it's going to be because of me and so you're more thinking along that but do you think there's a coaching issue

28:23Wayne Rooney:as well nowadays whereas I think like with you when you first started I don't think there would have been as much instructions from the manager to be like stay here positionally or whatever they sort of allowed you a little bit more freedom whereas with young players now they're probably taught to do a lot more things at the same time

28:40Michael Owen:yeah I think the coaching the young players are getting now within the Premier League for instance they're getting different type of we're getting a lot of foreign managers over probably technically getting taught a lot different to what we got taught and tactically they're getting a bit more where as I said when we were growing up or playing it was 4-4-2 it was a big man little man up front most of the time and that's that's what again I think I've seen a few of the other ex-England lads talking about should we have played at three in midfield and I always come back this is what our team was in Euro 2004.

29:19Michael Owen:So if you're the manager, who do you leave out? Because if you go to a back three, then you're going to have to leave either Guy Neville or Cole or whoever out. If you go to three in midfield, me or Michael, you're going to have to leave out. So you're going to have to leave. Whoever you leave out, if you change the system, you're going to have to leave a big name, top player out of the team. Now, do I think going to a three in midfield would have helped us? Yeah, I do. but it must have been I'm sure that's all stuff which Sven and the coaches were thinking of and thinking right just let's get our best players on the pitch yeah

29:53Wayne Rooney:when you talk about the pressure now and like do you think players now overprotect there's too many people involved maybe compared to when you were coming through or social media and that is a bigger thing now as well isn't it I know social media is a bigger thing but there's no there's hardly any press now compared to what there was you know it's give or take Like Wayne mentioned earlier about, you know, certain players being petrified. They get on the bus after a game and say, oh my word, I'm going to get a six in the paper and everyone's going to have a go at me and there's going to be a turnip on my head and all these things.

30:24Wayne Rooney:But that was real. That was real. You know, like it was real. People were scared. People were scared of the press. So social media has almost replaced that, I guess. The thing with social media, if you don't like it, you don't have to be on it. It's a choice. We had no choice. we had no choice we had to

30:43Michael Owen:so with social media you can respond immediately to and your own voice aren't you yeah to whatever you want to with the press it was a big thing like whatever they're putting in and saying about you

30:55Wayne Rooney:and they would create the image I mean coming out of the World Cup in 98 we had David Beckham who's you know who's the golden boy going but he gets a red card and obviously it was perfect for the press to say right he's the devil and then there's this young kid that's fresh face and smiling and scored a great goal. He can be the angel. But that's not my image. You know, he knows I'm not white. You know, it's like I drink. Perfect segue this. Do you know what I mean? It's like, but that was the narrative and we don't get a say really. Whereas nowadays, if you want to be charitable, if you want to be, you know, nasty or nice or whatever you want to be, it comes across in your social media.

31:38Wayne Rooney:Do you know what I mean? you can create your own you can be what you want to be we had no choice and the pressure and people say oh yeah the pressure yeah the pressure of a young person nowadays social media if you're a 10 year old nothing to do with football now I get that because that's a pressure that you don't really never have but for a young footballer I don't think it's more challenging or more pressurised to be a young footballer now There's so many more opportunities

32:01Michael Owen:with social media for a young player for instance the players now depending on how many followers they've got they're getting more money put into the contract because of that so it can be a massive help for a player or if it's not going well then obviously you can get a lot of criticism through that which is if you're being right 99 % of the people on that social media have not even watched the game

32:29Wayne Rooney:Well with that in mind do you reckon both of you would walk into the current day squads like Liverpool Man United Yeah Brilliant I love it when you get a question like that to Wayne because you know what you get. Yeah.

32:41Michael Owen:Who's the Pills forward now? Into the squad, you said. East-Sax injured.

32:46Wayne Rooney:It's a very different type of system. We play different ways, as Wayne said. Two up top and one number 10, one type of thing. So I would probably, I always think about I would probably play in a different position now if I was coming through. I guess I'd be like on the left of a three or something cutting in, or I guess, but I don't know. But in terms of quality, I'm not going to answer myself, but I'm like, come on. You know, it's not like we played 100 years ago. And even if we did, you know, it's still the players back in the day. They were, you know, fast forward to today with all the, you know, the ball and the pitch and the nutrition and everything else.

33:32Wayne Rooney:No one can tell me that great players back 50 years. years ago wouldn't wouldn't be great players now you said that you think you would play on the left of a three now do you probably I don't know probably so you wouldn't be a number nine because of the different demands on them I think so yeah I think most number nines now they want size and presence and um well there's not many of them is there and there are yeah we did a whole podcast I think you would be in a number because there's a lot of people that can't finish I know but half the time you get more chances and you are one of the wide players so it might be a better a better thing to do I don't what would you be Wayne what do you think where would you play I don't know

34:12Michael Owen:probably off the left I think yeah do you

34:15Wayne Rooney:yeah or in my field player I think you'd be either the nine but you didn't like really playing nine did you no but you could play as the the ten yeah do you know what I mean yeah the game's so different

34:27Michael Owen:now I think the game's more progressive and you know you're moving up the pitches you wouldn't play out left as a team you play as a ten so yeah I don't know Depends what team you're in.

34:37Wayne Rooney:Yeah, I guess. Okay, well then, if you were the manager, where would you play each other? I'd play him as a 10. Not putting him out wide. You're 50 % of the ball. You want him on the ball all the time.

34:48Michael Owen:Yeah, I'd play Michael as a 9. I think I just want him in the box. Yeah, that's what I have for. Two good chances.

34:55Wayne Rooney:And also, it feels like now, look at it in the summer with Isak and stuff. People were desperate for number nines. There's not as many of them. so I feel like you now would be like gold dust to some of these Premier League yeah there's not many number nines at all that's the way football's gone isn't it I'm sure it'll come around again there might be you know in the future there'll be more let's say or a different formation and people will start playing two up front again or whatever but at the minute there's just nothing you know there's just so few and when I look back at when I was coming through I mean forget players in terms of strikers around the world.

35:36Wayne Rooney:Just English. Just English. There was sort of, you know, Collymore and Chris Sutton and Shearer and Andy Cole and Robbie Fowler and Teddy Sheringham and Michael Owen and Les Ferdinand and the list goes on. Ian Wright. Ian Wright. I mean, you know, you're scoring 30 goals. Andy Cole, you score 30 goals. Robbie Fowler, they hardly got many caps for England. You know, imagine if you score 30, your goals now and you're English. My word. You know, you were scoring and a lot of those players that I mentioned, the Golden Boot winners in there, Chris Suttons and Dion Dublins and players like that, they won the Golden Boot.

36:13Wayne Rooney:They could hardly get a kick for England. They'd walk into the team, walk into this squad anyway nowadays. Do you think it's a lack of talent now because of that or is it just the way the game develops? The systems have changed. Yeah, the way the game's developed. What about strikers across the Premier League in general at the moment? How do you kind of rate the level? I just love Ekotike. I think he's going to be... If you take Kane and Lewandowski and players like that out of world football, which in a couple of years or whatever, then you'd think that that'd be the case, I think you're looking at him as possibly the best or definitely in the top three.

36:51Wayne Rooney:I think he's brilliant. I agree.

36:54Michael Owen:I think all season he's been Liverpool's best player this season by a long way I feel and it's almost a blessing in disguise I think that Isak has got injured because if Isak wasn't injured then I'm not sure how Arnie Slott would play it would he be forced into play Isak and then that means Ekotika gets moved to the left or he's put on the bench but I think from the start of the season I think he's been fantastic and for me I love Ireland I think for me Ireland's just an out and out number nine goalscorer technically can get better you know how he uses his body his link up play can get better but I just think as a goalscorer I think for me he's the one I'd choose

37:40Wayne Rooney:No wonder you said you'd play on the left for the front three you'd want to play with Eketiko would you? Yeah as I say I think he's brilliant I don't see any weakness in it his size his aggression he's strong quick enough his touch is brilliant his vision's good I just think he's going to develop into one of the world's best I really do

37:59Michael Owen:I think Verte as well I think Verte's getting better as well

38:03Wayne Rooney:Yeah are we starting to see Liverpool kind of find their find their groove after a difficult period Wouldn't go that far No Just yet Not really I personally I think they're the best team in the Premier League like people are laughing where are they sixth in the league like they trounced the league last season and it's not because you know they're not the they're just not playing well but if you if you get the best performance out of every team in the Premier League and say right go on your best against your best and they're all I think Liverpool are the best team going to Anfield I think it's impossible when they're playing well

38:41Michael Owen:Yeah and going to Anfield but for me it's different in it I think I think Arsenal are the most consistent team whether they win or not I'm not sure because City I don't know 100 % consistency Arsenal on who wins it I think Liverpool have had the plays they lost last summer and the plays they brought in it's a big turnaround to get the same other group of players this year what they got last year and so if you look at the plays they lost plus which I've said all season I don't think Van Dijk or Salah Liverpool's two main players have been the best so I think next season will be the one for Liverpool but and obviously when you're championed you get criticised if you don't win games and that's what's happened with the players and the manager

39:29Wayne Rooney:Who's going to finish above each other then? Who's going to Liverpool, United this season? Well, United have got a bit of a wet sail at the moment I think, do you know what? I think if you ask a Liverpool fan would you settle for finishing fifth? Champions League football is absolutely vital then after the season it's been and then to try to win another trophy then I think they'd take that. You know, the league has long gone. So it's just about making sure it's top five. But no, I mean, I hear what I was with the Liverpool situation and it's been massively frustrating, but I still find it hard to believe you can go from being so dominant one season and then adding some really top players, you know, the East Sacks, the Eketikes of this world, the Virts.

40:19Wayne Rooney:I mean, just those three are unbelievable players. And I feel it's hard to believe that they're worse. Now, of course, they're playing worse this season, but I just think it's a matter of time, maybe next season, as well, as I said, before you see them at their very top again. I mean, Arsenal, I think, will go on to win the league, but you can't tell me that they're as good as, not even close to Liverpool last season. As I say, I still think, I don't think it's all been ripped up and torn up and things like that. I still think Liverpool have got it in them. They're just not doing it consistently.

40:58Wayne Rooney:Who finishes above who then?

40:59Michael Owen:I think United will finish third. I think Villa maybe might drop out. I got absolutely so much criticism like two months ago for saying that's the Villa were nowhere near going to finish near the top league. They're not in a tight race.

41:15Wayne Rooney:When I look at their squad and I'm like, they punch above their weight so much.

41:19Michael Owen:Yeah, I was getting battered for saying they're not on the title.

41:22Wayne Rooney:Which is a credit to them.

41:23Michael Owen:Which I think for Villa to finish top five, that's a massive achievement. And I don't think they will. I think they'll drop out of it. I think United, Chelsea and Liverpool.

41:37Wayne Rooney:What have you made of the job Michael Carrick's been doing at United? We've obviously spoken about it a lot with Wayne. Amazing. Absolutely amazing. And inevitably he's done a few things, but just changing the formation, putting players back in their rightful position has been a simple thing to most fans and to most people watching and observing. But I think it's made a huge difference. His calm and influence, his persona, you know, his know-how and his liking for the club, et cetera, all help. I think he's done brilliant and just brought a calm back to the club. I cannot believe people are questioning whether he should be given the job or not I just can't like Manchester United have waited about 12 years they've gone for proven they've gone for legends of the game they've gone for everything you name it they've gone for it over the last 12 years or ever since Sir Alex and the one time that actually they're starting to play well they're getting results the fans are all excited everybody's on board you telling me that like at the end of the season he gets third in the league and they're going to say well thanks but no thanks i mean imagine what happens next imagine the next man how can you possibly just because you give him the job that doesn't mean like you know if he does really really badly for six months and you know manchester united are back in 12 or something you can always change you know They've changed millions of times in the last 12 years anyway.

43:10Wayne Rooney:Why on earth wouldn't you just say, you're winning low, keep going, this is amazing. They haven't felt like this for 12 years. What on earth are people saying when they say he shouldn't be getting the job? I don't get it.

43:23Michael Owen:I think everyone's scared. I think it's like, Gazneva or Roy or Solsey as well. What not? That manager like Ancelotti or Luis Enrique or managers like this.

43:35Wayne Rooney:They've had Van Gaal and Mourinho. So I think people who've been at the club a lot,

43:41Michael Owen:I think they're just scared. And everyone at Manchester United loves Michael Carrick. I don't think anyone's got a bad word to say about him. And they're just scared. That doesn't go right in. I'm exactly the same as Michael. He's done an unbelievable job.

43:57Wayne Rooney:I do think there's an unnecessary criticism sometimes when it's an English manager as well. I think if Michael Carrick was perhaps someone from Spain or something and he was doing the job that he's doing, people would be a lot more forgiving and be like, oh my God. Strange, isn't it? Yeah. I'm so pleased that English managers are doing quite well at the moment. You know, Carrick's doing well, Lampard's doing well. Of course, you know, Rosinha's got the Chelsea job. All of a sudden there's, you know, some young English managers in the game. And I didn't even try because I just don't think it's, you know, credit to him he you know going to america going to plymouth going you know really pushing the boat out trying to happen you know create a new career i mean hats off for you i look at it and think it's impossible it's impossible for a young manager i mean someone like amarin and i like ruben amarin but you know you give somebody a manager's job on the back of you know doing well in their country for a very small, short period of time.

45:06Wayne Rooney:There's managers that would do equally as well if they went out and managed in other countries. It's virtually impossible for a young manager, young English manager to come in and do an Amram type of thing in their country because one, you'll never get the chance to, nobody will ever, but he's got miles more chance. And so has virtually every manager of managing at the level that he knows you know if you ask me to go and manage my local team in the conference with all due respect i don't really know any of the players it's a different bit of a different sport that's not me being you know snooty about but you know it's more of a passing game and whatever at the highest level like i could coach something that i know about if i go and so you're almost you're just forcing players in this country to go and you're just feeding them to the wolves you're just saying go on you you go manage at a low level you're destined to fail because you don't really know it and then everyone thinks you're a bad manager well it's it's it's just totally wrong it's just totally wrong it's like look at the some of the great managers what did Zidane do of course what did Pep Guardiola do they didn't have to go you know they didn't have to go to Celta Vigo or something like that to try and learn he's training it's like Arteta

46:26Michael Owen:at Arsenal Arteta works with Man City as a coach where Michael Carrick went out for three and a half years or whatever it was with Middlesbrough so Michael Carrick has actually done way more than what Arteta done before Arteta got the Arsenal job he'd been doing the job he'd been learning on the job but still he hasn't got the experience to manage Manchester United

46:49Wayne Rooney:OK let's wrap up with some quick fire going to put you both on the spot who's the better who's the better finisher what type of finishing just better finisher finishing finishes

47:00Michael Owen:and finishes in the box isn't it Michael the best finisher

47:02Wayne Rooney:just being nice there who was faster Michael he's going to say Michael there stronger mentality we're mates

47:11Michael Owen:I think we're both quite

47:15Wayne Rooney:I think yeah we both both got a lot of self-belief yeah strong yeah draw bigger aura was do you agree um yeah I'm older than him I get the final decision who peaked earlier

47:31Michael Owen:I don't think we peaked I think we we both come through and was was I think Michael when he come through was come through as a better more influential standard than I did and then obviously I come to Everton had two years then went to Man United and then started getting you see in the better of me where I think Michael's was instant at Liverpool.

47:53Wayne Rooney:Agree? Yeah. Who was the worst teammate?

47:58Michael Owen:He was a great teammate.

47:59Wayne Rooney:Was he a good teammate?

48:00Michael Owen:He was when he could get his nose out of the recent post.

48:05Wayne Rooney:I'm glad you brought us onto that because I just want you to also give us a little bit of insight. Michael said it earlier about how the press portray certain images and Michael said at that point, Wazel will tell you I'm not like that. What's the real Michael Owen like?

48:17Michael Owen:I can't tell you. no listen people ask me about Michael all the time and what's he like and when I say oh he's a funny lad good banter have good times, good laughs together I'm a bit shocked

48:33Wayne Rooney:and my kids say it to me all the time they say dad everyone thinks you're so boring it's fine you don't care do you? no not at all as I say I was probably painting as that early on and it's stuck why do you think that was? probably at the world cup and my representation at the time as well um you know when i got back from the world cup it was you know right anything you do it's it's carefully monitored it's you know you're only doing signing with brands that are this and that and the other so probably that image that they that the the team drove back then probably gave that that image so who was better as an 18 year old because you've been on record saying that there was no question listen Wayne was I've been on record as well

49:22Michael Owen:no saying that so as an 18 year old he was better I've said this before he was the best forward in world football at that age

49:31Wayne Rooney:I mean we can you can compare contrast and things like that but we were different players as well we're different you know I won the golden boot at 17 I won the golden boot again at 18 I was came fourth in the Ballon d 'Or at 18 I was the second youngest player ever to win the Ballon d 'Or I was very good at a very young age he was exceptional constantly it's nice that we No but yeah you are a Ballon d 'Or winner so I think I think people He's the last youngest one Yeah I think sometimes people forget that as well but it is like at that time I think people forget

50:04Michael Owen:because obviously Michael obviously after Liverpool went to Madrid and come back to Newcastle and whatever then that two or three years at Liverpool I think people forget how good he was.

50:14Wayne Rooney:That's the problem. Like for my last 10 years of my career, I was not the same player as I was for the first five. So immediately our brains remember things that are nearer to us than further away. So for the last 10 years, I've probably repetitively knocked on people's brains saying that Mike Lowe's decent, but he's only decent, good finish it, but blah, blah. But if you just can erase those 10 years and just watch me for five years right at the start from 17 to 22, then you'd have a very vastly different opinion of me. But that's cool. No, you don't need to... You don't need to agree with that.

50:51Wayne Rooney:I thought you were playing. Kay, imagine if these two had stayed fit and played longer for England. Oh, mate, we would have... I always go back to Euro 2004 and I just think that tournament was ours for the taking, unfortunately, what happened. I think that about a few of those tournaments.

51:05Michael Owen:But I think when you scored against Portugal, I was so happy because obviously I was getting a load of the praise and whatever but then your goal the him players won a look into Portugal I remember on the pitch thinking I'm so happy because now you've got the two of us scoring goals and this is a big problem for the teams 2006 as well and obviously I get injured yeah

51:27Wayne Rooney:okay well that's where we'll leave it Michael thank you so much for coming you were worth the wait brilliant to have you with us a reminder as always you can watch the Wayne Rooney show on the BBC Sport YouTube or iPlayer or you can listen on BBC Sounds We'll see you next time.

52:08Wayne Rooney:F1's rulebook has been years in the making.

52:11Michael Owen:Somebody's going to get it right and somebody's going to get it wrong.

52:13Wayne Rooney:I'm Rosamund Pike and this is F1 Back at Base. A new era. Listen on BBC Sounds.

52:25Wayne Rooney:It's 2009 and we're in the German mountains. A man straps himself into a car on the world's most dangerous racetrack. He whispers to himself, It's time to put my balls on the dashboard. As he starts the engine. In 15 minutes, he's in an ambulance, unconscious. In 15 years, he's a billionaire. This is Toto Wolff, Formula One's most powerful team boss and the breakout star of Drive to Survive.

52:49Michael Owen:This week on Good, Bad, Billionaire, how Toto Wolff made his billions. Listen wherever you get your BBC podcasts.