Rooney and Littler: The BRUTAL reality of being #1

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1:19The produce section is bursting with pineapples, mangoes, and kiwis at their juiciest. Grill up fresh seafood paired with tropical fruit marinades or grab and enjoy the spicy Hawaiian pizza, hooli hooli chicken and more. Finish with a sweet slice of mango yuzu chantilly cake. Savor the tropics and save at Whole Foods Market. Ever in the taxi and saying like we're batting today? It's the arts. It's a crazy game. I think if I won the World Championship was on debut, I think it would have been mental. When I started playing obviously in pub leagues and stuff and obviously started playing against adults obviously they weren't happy losing to a 10 11 year old but we're doing high scoring 9 9 dots each here we go 9 dots each oh wonderful alright so you guys have met before as well haven't you yeah so you developed a relationship playing FIFA we played for Gert and Turf you were already playing weren't you yeah we've been playing for a few weeks before you joined I joined and they let me down they let you down yeah who's better at you two so I've played ginger a lot off stream okay and absolutely battered him have you because I tell him to keep it off stream yeah because I think I said I was saying to you to speak up to speak more do you remember oh yeah I was quiet the first time because he was quiet on it and I was saying to speak more I think I see on the internet or something saying that I was bullying him to tell him to speak more I was like what are you talking about because we were obviously all on the same team yeah yeah yeah trying to win but So no, it was good fun.

2:56No, nice. You enjoy that. Is that how you wind down? Yeah. Yeah, playing FIFA. Eventually, yeah, just playing FIFA, chilling, chatting. You're a massive darts fan. What is it about the darts as well that makes you so attracted to it? I've watched it for years, obviously. I think Phil Taylor was obviously a massive icon of darts. And then watching over the years his battles with Barney, I think, was great. and then Van Gerwen comes into it. Obviously Bristol before that was a little bit before my time. And then it's always been something of Christmas as a family. We've always sat down and watched it.

3:34And, you know, sometimes TV over Christmas, you can only watch so many Christmas films, can't you? We've always watched it. And Colleen's granddad had a pub, lived in the pub for years in Liverpool, the Kings, and he had his darts team there. So we used to go down there and play. I can travel that. I'm not great. I've got a video of you. We were at Tottenham Hotspur's training ground and they've got a darts board and he was hitting it there. I think you nearly, well, you've got a treble, one of them. Yeah, I mean, I think I've got a 90, 85. He's decent. You can give him some tips though. Yeah.

4:07People ask me for tips all the time. I'm just like... Just be good. Just practice. Yeah, yeah. Just practice. Was it something that came naturally to you when you started playing darts? I think I'm naturally gifted, yeah. Yeah. I'll say so. I love that. Like everybody else plays with darts. What about your darts? When did you start playing? On a magnetic board. I was 18 months old. Really? I think I started throwing proper darts when I was like four or five. There's a video on YouTube of a Gerard kit, but an England kit. Oh, okay. With number four on the back. The board where the little things stick out and you throw it and it sticks into it.

4:46It's a nightmare to get them out. You put it like... Oh, yeah. I remember having one of them when I was a kid, baby. I was going to say, your mental maths must have been brilliant at 18 months. I don't remember. I don't remember. I just remember. Must have been adding some tracking like crazy. I was awful at maths in school, though. But Dad's maths, they're different. It's amazing. Do you know what? Saying that, my lad has been playing quite a lot, and the improvement in his maths and stuff is incredible. So it's... It does help. Yeah, it does. The more you play, you'll know everything straight away.

5:18So now, like, you don't even need to calculate. It's just like, they're straight. Yeah, it's just those. it's amazing when you're playing and you're switching that's what comes with it switching thinking but you do that more than a lot of darts players don't you? you tend to go for the the harder route yeah I think I'm the I'd like to say I'm the best counter in darts really see I spend most of my time just counting up by the time everybody would be like telling me to hurry up by the time it's my go I always see players and they leave so obviously they'll throw three darts and you'll leave like 162 you can't check out 162 159 you can't check out 159 whereas for me i always leave a finish pretty much i don't want to leave them numbers yeah you're you're a bit of a showman when it comes to it as well isn't it yeah you a lot of people sort of cower when it comes to like that level of pressure but very much like when you're a bit of a teenage sensation as well is that something you thrive off yeah i mean obviously you thrive off it but I think just the moment just enjoy the moment just obviously you're on camera you're on Sky in front of thousands every week just just give it a bit show them a bit yeah yeah but you know on that way you were saying there I think in any sport if you take risks you'd have the better moments yeah yeah and remember not long back where you I think you had 80 left and you've gone double 20 double 20 two tops a lot of people tie for the 60 or and then if they miss get a 20-20 yeah double top but you take risks and you have these big moments which obviously people want to see and people remember I mean you took a lot of risks and stuff as well when you were playing was that again natural or was it something that somebody told you you had to do of course you want big moments in whatever you do and that's normal but to achieve things you need to take risks don't you there's no point in being safe and how many times in football if you go to football you hear fans saying you're backwards or sideways and Bruno know is arguably being the best player in the Premier League Bruno Fernandes this season and he gives the ball away a lot he takes risks but then the outcome of it is you know these moments we're seeing from him that's the outcome of it prime example you had to walk out as a teenager but you had loads of people supporting you and stuff you were coming out in front of massive crowds by yourself what is that like I think the first time was at the World Championships I think two years ago now So it was just, yeah, very, very weird experience.

7:50But I think my first game, my first was, it was just like, yeah, get to walk on, I'm on Sky Sports, I'm at Ali Pali, just see how it goes. And yeah, from there, it's just crazy. Do people ask you what your walk-on music is or whatever when you first start? And then you have to like, are you spending time thinking about what music you're going to play? Yeah, I think obviously the media, they always pick up on it. Obviously the walk-on, I'd say it's a big part. obviously get the fans going but my song is Greenlight by Pitbull from WrestleMania 33. Oh, is that where you got it from? Yeah, me and my dad went to WrestleMania 33 back in 2017.

8:29Oh, is it? Orlando, Florida. See, the thing is with walk-on music you don't really have it in football, do you? But as a stand-up comedian they tell us all the time what music do you want when you come? For us it's only 10 seconds. It doesn't really mean anything. Then it's done. Yeah, exactly. You can drag it out. I'm not going to sit there for ages trying to milk it but it's part of the show you think of you know go back to Phil Taylor and I got the power and that's like a part of the whole spectacle and I think that's where that's now it's obviously I think you've completely changed the the way people look at that you know you're seeing kids you know from from babies you know playing now and all in Luke's stuff it's What would you come out to if you had to come out for football?

9:18Susan Boyle, I listened to Susan Boyle. I'm trying to imagine that. Trying to get a crowd to have top of Susan Boyle. Theatrical and, yeah, I don't know. Would you ever change your song? Is that it now? Yeah, a lot of people have, and obviously sometimes when I finish a game, speak to a few other guys and they're always like, you ever change it? And I'm just like, I don't think so. Because if you change something and the fans don't like it, then it won't work out. But yeah, I think the one I've got now, it's very catchy. Yeah. Well, fair enough. I want to talk about Manchester United because I'm a Man United fan as well.

9:50And obviously we've got a United legend here as well. What was it about Man United that drew you in? Just the family. I think mainly my dad's dad. So my granddad, he was massive on it. They went to a few games and followed in the family. I think my mum's dad, he's Liverpool, but yeah, I followed my dad's side, not my mum's side. What was your earliest memory as a United fan? We used to go to quite a lot of under 21 games Really? Yeah I think it was free entry back then Was that at Alty then? Did you play there? Old Trafford yeah I went a few times Old Trafford Yeah One that pops out to me is when you scored on you scored a free kick away to Stoke 21st of January that was my birthday Oh yeah 2016, 17 That was for the record yeah Yeah I got the record It's not a bad I think it was a draw wasn't it?

10:40We drew 1-1 It was later on, yeah. And then that was when I broke the record and Bobby Charlton was there. He'd come in and congratulated me. But yeah, my first memory is in the ground. I think it was Atalanta in the Champions League when Ronaldo returned. He went 2-0 down. Rashford got one, Maguire got one and then Ronaldo scored the winner. Incredible. Incredible scene. So what do you think of United this season? How do you think we've been getting on? Obviously, it didn't start off well with Ruben But I think what else Mock and Carrick have done apart from the loss to Newcastle? Other than that, it's been fantastic.

11:18Yeah. Really good. Yeah. It's been a really, really interesting season because you think how terrible we were at the start to where we are now. It's just almost like imagine if we'd have made that change a little bit sooner, innit? Michael's colours has simplified it. I think with Amaran, the shape and different rotations. and there was big gaps everywhere. United were easy to play against. Yeah, very easy. Against with Amarun. I think a few of the players as well, they just weren't, obviously, they were playing in, some were playing natural positions, but they just weren't getting used to it.

11:51I love Ruben, and obviously, I think all the previous managers, it's always been 4-2-3-1, so it looked better. It looked a bit good with the three at the back, but it just didn't work out. Yeah, no, I think Michael, he's simplified it. Football is not, I know I've tried the management, but football is not that difficult in terms of it hasn't changed that much you know it was created and I think what we're seeing now Yeah people do try and complicate it a lot I think we're seeing people try and complicate it and actually less is more and simplifying it and that's what Michael's done really For me I think right now it's such an interesting period that we're in because there's all this talk about a new manager coming in at the end of the season and what not and it's like everywhere you look all these people are putting themselves out of the running And I think we've already got the perfect replacement as it is.

12:38What do you think? Do you want to stick with Carrick? Or there's talks of like a Luis Enrique, or there's talk about other sort of names like Nagelsmann. But would you be happy with a name like that? Obviously, them two names are obviously big names and obviously Champions League names, aren't they? Champions League winning managers. A few weeks ago, I said to obviously all my friends and I think to the media, I said like, if we get Champions League, then I think the club will want to go for a Champions League manager. and it looks that way. But for myself, I think I keep Carrick and he knows the club inside out as well, played for us.

13:11But yeah, keep Carrick. It's nice as well, how we, I think, when you see somebody like Carrick go into like a lot of the youth team games and like a lot of the under-21 games. Watching and stuff, supporting, yeah. Yeah, exactly. It's just, I think Wayne's mentioned it before, it's like having somebody that knows a club top to bottom and it's almost what you want from a club like Man United, isn't it? Yeah, it's a big part of the club and the culture of the football club and that has been lost over the last I don't know how many years 10 years etc so what Michael is doing he's slowly bringing that back I was speaking to him the other day actually and every time I've seen him since he's took the job he's in his Man United tractor so I think he's saving money he's saving money he doesn't have to buy any clothes so they try to you know change your clothes but it shows obviously there's boys in the academy as well he's in my lad's team but he's there he's watching games he's studying and the academy has always been a massive part of Man United I think he's been a player from the academy in every squad since the club's been formed and so it's a huge part of the academy and he's gradually bringing that back because it was in a mess to be honest because the managers who come in didn't really care they just wanted the first team through well and pushed that aside so it's nice to see that come back and then then you can judge what he's doing on the pitch with the first team and they're doing well.

14:37So I don't think there's a need to change him. I think he's brought back a winning mentality, which is something that you know about, right? And I'm really interested in that because anytime I see you sort of playing, it's almost like if you don't win, you're like so annoyed with yourself. You can visibly see it on your face. I think you've got one of those personalities where you can't really hide how you're feeling. How important is it to have that in sports? Yeah, I think it's massive. I think obviously darts is different to football. Because football, you obviously, you work together. Whereas darts, you're on stage, you're on your own, you can only...

15:14Is that lonely? I mean, when it's not going well, it's lonely up there. I've experienced it a few times. But yeah, like I said, it's just different. You haven't had too many of those moments, though, have you? No, not too many. When you talk about a mindset and a mentality, what have you done when 5-0 down? so a lot of players just get the game lose the game and get it done and get off the stage but you have that mindset and mentality to okay just win the next leg and then to go on and win it that's when we talk about Man United when you score late goals all the time that's exactly what that is exactly what it's a different sport but it's the same mentality same mindset to to have the ability to carry on and then say to yourself okay if I win the next one the next leg it puts a bit more pressure on the opposition or the opponent so that's huge and not many people have that.

16:06I think as well when you're seeing that sort of winning mentality it permeates throughout the whole club as well doesn't it? Like when you see it at the top the manager it has to come from the manager doesn't it? In football. Yeah it's changed slightly hasn't it? Because if you go back to Alex Ferguson he's the manager of the football he was the boss of the whole club basically. Where now it's changed to head coaching they don't want managers no more you've got all sport directors they want coaches and that's fair enough and as long as that relationship is right with the head coach and in my opinion I prefer where you've got a manager who that's the boss but now there's different bosses all over the place and it can become complicated again off the pitch so I prefer the old school way but unfortunately it's gone the other way and when it doesn't go well all these sport directors who've picked these players they don't get punished manager goes and they're still there.

16:58Of course, yeah. So there should be accountability as well. Absolutely.

17:07So where do you get it from? Because you don't, obviously you don't have a manager telling you like you've got to win Luke or whatever. So where does that come from? Like how do you, how do you psych yourself up for a game and stuff? Like what do you do? I think obviously the main thing is wanting it. Obviously wanting to win games, wanting to pick up trophies and obviously the money's there as well. But yeah, I mean, like you said, obviously my manager, he doesn't obviously tell me to obviously practice this much or you've got to win this game. But the most important part of that is just enjoy it.

17:38Just enjoy the stage time, enjoy. And then obviously it'll all come together and you start winning games. But the success for you has come while you've been really, really young as well. Like, I mean, for a lot of other people, like if you get that level of money, fame, whatever, really early on, your sort of game can take a bit of a slump but you haven't let it get to that level. What do you think is the reason for that? I think just being myself, just staying grounded. Obviously, the money's there as well but obviously everyone growing up, they're not always going to have money. So yeah, I'm not really a big spender either and I've not started investing in anything yet or anything but I'm sure it'll come to that point.

18:20But yeah, I've just got to keep going, keep getting more trophies. And that's the most important bit in creating more history. I think with Luke, when I look at how he's gone from a 16-year-old to fame and obviously earning more money now, which is good the more successful you are, obviously, but winning sports personality. Was sports personality the young one? Was the main one, was it? No, the young one. The young one. So I won that at a similar age. And then the press can be, it's here, so it can be mind-boggling. You're not used to it. from a similar area I'd imagine to where Luke's from and you're not used to that you're not used to media you're not used to talking in front of cameras and it can be intimidating but the one thing which has always remained is your safe place mine was on the football pitch and I'd imagine where he's comfortable and you can tell me if I'm wrong here would be on the hockey and where he's playing that's where no one can get to him he's safe he can write what he wants and that's how I felt my safe place was on the pitch and then all the media and stuff were ever the older you get the more you'd experience it you'd learn off the deal but it is it is tough Would you agree with that?

19:33Yeah definitely especially obviously the media when I first came on the scene obviously we were always looking at comments and everything and all my family but now we just just get used to it and just block it out I do love the fact that obviously both of you were amazing or you still are like and you oh my god no but like you're not playing now innit you're not playing now when did you like I suppose it's a question for both of you when did you both realise like you could be the best I've always had the belief and and this is where I think there's loads of comparisons I think you can have a you'd have to have a certain level of elegance I think to to be at your best and that's not in a bad way that's you have the confidence and a belief but a certain level of elegance as well to to get that next level and that's I felt that's what I've always had and so yeah from when I was younger I felt that I felt when I got in Everton the first team I've said it many times I felt like I was the best player at 16 then you move I moved to Man United then with England and stuff you you feel you can always you know make a difference and that's what I've always felt What about yourself?

20:41When did you sort of go I can do this Yeah I mean obviously I've been playing obviously tournament wise for many years I think maybe my first proper tournament was like nine, maybe ten. And just like Wayne said, you show a bit of arrogance. But yeah, obviously the more you do it, obviously people might not like it. But as long as you feel comfortable about doing it, then it's awesome as. Was there a period of time when you started playing against adults, when it wasn't just people your own age, where you were like, hold on, these aren't as good as they think they are? I mean, to be honest, when I started playing, obviously in pub leagues and stuff, and obviously started playing against adults, Obviously, they weren't happy losing to a 10, 11-year-old.

21:23Yeah, when I was beating them, I was going to the Darts Academy in St. Ireland as well. And I think the younger players in there were better than these old men. So I was pretty much winning all the time. So you'd obviously had your setbacks and mistakes, probably, that you were experiencing throughout that whole period. How did you deal with those? Yeah, I mean, there's always setbacks. and started the Premier League campaign in, I mean, last month, February. Obviously, I think the first two, three weeks picked up two points or something, maybe four weeks in, two points. So I had a bit of a blip at the start, but now obviously I've got back to it at the top of the Premier League table and we've just got to keep going.

22:05What I'm enjoying now is the... Because you've had the rivalry, didn't you, with Phil Taylor towards the end and Barney and stuff, and then with Luke Humphries as well. he's close yeah I mean we always travel together so oh wow I really like that little obviously you're coming out on on top but it's good that you've got each other to keep pushing each other and that's it obviously I'm sure he'll win he'll win some tournaments and you'll win tournaments but to have that competitive edge and want to beat them is you need that yeah how do you deal with bad form though like because it's easier said than done isn't it?

22:44Yeah I think well I don't know in that obviously but in football for me it's and you learn this over playing bad or making mistakes is to simplify I think it was when I weren't playing well I'd try and overcomplicate things and try and you know Hollywood passing and do mad stuff to show people that you're still a good player but actually just simplifying it simplify your game and play your way into a game and stuff like that that's how I That was me I'd just be doing loads of sideways passes to get my stats up. Completed 100 passes. None of them meant anything, but yeah. But for you, you can't really miss a throw, can you?

23:26Everything matters. Like, that must be insane levels of pressure, because you're probably thinking about yourself and thinking about other things going on as well while you're doing it. Yeah, obviously it's difficult at times, but I think obviously for myself and as a player, Obviously, if you start the leg off brilliant, start the first two legs off brilliant, I think you just know in yourself that you'll probably just run away with it. And obviously, belief is one of the biggest things as well, just believe in yourself. So how do you deal with the social media aspect of it? Because I imagine when you first started, there was a massive outpour of love for you, right?

24:08But as we know - There still is. Yeah, there is. No, but then at times it can turn negative, can't it? I'm sure you experienced bits of it as well, right? And that must be hard. How do you block it out? Yeah, there's always negativity with, I think, not only darts, football. Every sport, no one's. People are going to like you, people aren't going to like you, and that's just the way it is. And obviously the fans that pay the tickets, pay the money to watch us in person, I think obviously they do mean the most because obviously they want to watch us play good darts and obviously we're always fighting to win against each other.

24:44But yeah, like I said, especially with the media and bringing social media into it, first time after the first was, it was hard to not bite back at people. But now it's just leave it. We've got used to it. Are you glad it happened so early on so now you know how to deal with it? I think if I won the World Championships on debut, I think it would have been mental. But even like, I think two days after when we went back home, I think even my mum and dad said, I think looking back at it now I think it's glad we're glad that he didn't win it because it would have just been I think a hundred times worse I think it's different Luke's in a position where I think the other Darts players should be thankful because the prize money's obviously improved as well for everyone else because of the eyeballs and the interest that Luke's brought to that and what you're saying there in terms of if something happens which is a bit controversial if that's Aspenal no one and I love Aspenal as well no one no one cares it gets brushed away and that's it but when it's Luke obviously it becomes it becomes bigger and that's part of of being a superstar at your sport that's things you have to deal with and the main thing on that is you'll know yourself the people around around Luke are the ones who are important yeah you shouldn't really care if someone's sat behind the keyboard giving you a bit of stick that's I know we say that though, but it's hard sometimes, isn't it?

26:09You log on to Twitter or whatever. After I asked someone to come to the training ground for a fight. Did you? But he tweeted himself.

26:20It's all part of learning and it's tough. You've got some rivalries in your sport. Are you thankful for those? Because, I mean, you said you're quite close with Luke because he's very good as well, right? I mean, he'll win some, you win some. Are you thankful for him being there and being so close to him? And do you ever have any mind games with him? I wouldn't say mind games. I think me and Luke, obviously, we're just two people that just want to get on it. Like I said, obviously, we travel. Sometimes we always travel together. Sometimes, obviously, on the same flight. And obviously, we'll jump in taxis together because obviously, there's a lot of us traveling.

27:00But yeah, obviously, Luke's been on the tour for many, many years. and obviously he wasn't the greatest and look where he is now. But yeah, even with the Premier League, there's eight players, even backstage you have a laugh and on stage, like Wayne said, we're always pushing each other every week. Ever in the tag team saying, like, we're going to bat you today? Nah. It's the arts. It's a crazy game. You win some, you lose some. What you just said there about Luke Humphries, he wasn't the greatest and then now he's got to a really top level. Similar in most sports. you see improvement so Roger Federer I don't know before he was winning everything he was getting knocked out of first round in Wimbledon and stuff anger management and he went and got anger management lessons and then obviously come on to be this top so it's all work and keep it's a lot of it psychological as well isn't it it's about managing your emotions and I think a lot of people sort of falter when the nerves kick in and adrenaline kicks in doesn't it it's probably a different thing when you're playing on a main stage as opposed to what it's like in training or when you're practising isn't it that's when it means the most when you're on stage you can practice and you in practice you're allowed to miss and you're allowed to make mistakes but when that pressure's on that's when the top players come out so how do you relax we've mentioned gaming what's your wind down routine because I can imagine like I've done some massive gigs and like you're sort of at such a massive high and then you can have like such a massive low if you don't watch out how do you deal with that like you're at alley pali for example like everyone's like looking at you cheering you on and then you go back into your car and it's silent what would you do um it's just i think what a 19 year old lot of day just xbox obviously chill out see my friends go to manchester go to the trafford center or something but yeah it's just chill chilled out and obviously one of the biggest things for me is obviously my friends have obviously stuck with me they've not got after the first world they've not gone oh look at you you've won this amount of money they've actually stayed with me and supported me um but yeah that's i'd be staying staying with your nando's is on you every time we go in box i spoke to some of my mates who are boxers yeah and they say when they're in the ring obviously some of being world champions as well the you can all the noise and all the shouting and whatever they said they you can only hear the voices which have been with them so the the brothers or the trainer yeah yeah the dad or something in the crowd you always have it's obviously with dads when you see it's a good score you see looking over towards the families yeah do you have a voice your dad or your mum or which you can constantly hear no you can't hear anything you can't hear nothing could you hear anybody on a pitch you can hear bits and that and like abusive whatever it is but you can hear it but you you learn it's not really you learn to you know when you learn more was when a goal scored that's when you oh really yeah oh you'd hear the silence in the away stadium oh yeah so how did you relax as well what did you do for that similar I'd go home playing Playstation or watch a movie I'd always go and watch the game back glass of wine chill Chinese nice right so we've got some quickfire questions for you as well 9.0 versus a last minute goal which one would you choose?

30:25I'd say last minute goal I'd love to score last minute goal oh is it? yeah alright walk on versus tunnel nerves again I'd love to experience walking down the tunnel see I'd love to walk out as a like a that's a different we've both done it yeah we've both done it like to walk out I'd have my top on to him I'd probably put my collar on what kind of shirt would you have if you played darts? see I'd go long sleeve would you yeah yeah I've got long sleeve it's only because I don't know I've always wore long sleeves and every game yeah I don't feel comfortable when I don't wear long sleeves when I'm performing so we in a previous episode we were talking about walk-on music and he said if he was a boxer he would come out to no music and just a spotlight on him with a whole crowd dark and it'd just be just him.

31:20I'd just walk off. I just think it'd be so intimidating. How unhinged do you think that is? Oh, that'd be intimidating. I'd want him to walk first. If he came out to the darts like that, what would you think? Oh, I don't know. It'd be a bit weird topless in shorts at the darts doing that. But yeah, spotlight on him and then some sparkles come up. Right, I want to go best atmosphere, Old Trafford or when you're at the darts? Old Trafford nothing beats it you think yeah nothing by yourself Tart is good though man I was at the one you're doing tomorrow I was there last year and in Manchester Tart is just everyone's in a good mood yeah and obviously there's banter going on and there's some outfits as well isn't there outfits and everyone's just in a in a good mood and I think the promotion of of you just go all over the world you just play and it's incredible it must be tiring to to go from week to week and it's that's a lot of it down to travelling to Luke but obviously the promotion of that now is is much better well thank you so much for joining us Luke thank you thank you thank you for listening to the Wayne Rooney show you can catch us on BBC Sounds BBC iPlayer or you can watch on YouTube

32:47BBC Radio 5 Live. Patrick Kielsey. Stumbling your way into Saturday mornings with great guests. Good morning, Jimmy Nesbitt. Good morning, Apati. You're terrible. Kids taking down commentators. You've wiped the floor with our commentator key. And how does it feel? It feels nice. Football chants from the gods. Save me home. I did wrong. And the less said about the host, the better. Patrick Kielsey. Saturdays from 9. Listen on BBC Sounds.

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