Rooney On Gerrard’s Comments and Feeling Lost Post-Birmingham

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1:07That's O-D-O-O dot com. I think with Bex and Guy Neville and Scalzi and that, they weren't going to be close to Liverpool players. After the Birmingham job I had done, I had a period in there where I was a bit lost really. So I'd be in the office with Kaku and his coaches, so I'd always pick myself.

1:31Okay, well, it's been a very busy few days for all of us involved with this show. We went and saw Kay on Sunday. But the first thing I want to know, personally, you guys went to the Legends of Football Awards on Monday night. I couldn't come because I was on holiday. Kay, I'm going to ask you firstly how it was. You were Wayne's plus one, weren't you? Yeah, amazing. It was real fun. To be fair to Wayne, massive thank you. He took care of me. Made sure I was well looked after and stuff. So, yeah, I didn't feel out of place in any way. But I was sat on a table with Everton Legends and I think there would have been a lot of people that had paid a lot of money for that.

2:07So I realised how fortunate I was when I was there and seeing Peter Reid on the table. And he's a great guy, man. Really funny character and stuff as well. Enjoyed his dance moves when the music started playing. But yeah, it was great. It was so many legends, like people you watched growing up playing football all in the same room. And yeah, it was a surreal experience. But yeah, I think I was sat on the best table, to be fair. Yeah, Wayne, how did you find it? Talk us through who was on that table. Yeah, no, it was Peter Reid, Paul Bracewell and Trevor Stevens. So obviously, legend of Everton from the 80s.

2:45And yeah, no, it was a good night. I presented Guy Lineker with his award. Sorry to say a few words, but I actually had robbed a few of them beforehand. so I had to think fast on my feet when I went up. But no, it was a good night. I really enjoyed it. How was his speech, Kay? He kept on saying, I've got to do a speech. I don't know what I'm going to say. And then he went on and I was like, this guy has probably written this three months in advance because it was so good. Had you written it? No, no. He had a few little jokes in there as well to begin with. I was like, oh my God, he's working the crowd.

3:17Did you get laughs? He did. He got a couple of laughs, like big ones as well. I was like, I might get him to do a five minute spot before the next time around. That, of course, the night before we were at your gig and myself and Wayne went to Nando's before with a few of the production guys. And all Wayne kept saying was that he was quite anxious for you. Wayne, he said your speech was very good. How do you rate his performance? Yeah, no, it was really good. I didn't know what to expect, to be honest. and when we went in to the to the theatre and you're seeing it you know intimate and I was thinking I wouldn't I wouldn't like to do that but no it was it was the it was the guy who was on before you what's his name Martin Yeshelada yeah we were in Nando's and he come up to me and went I'm meant to be on in 20 minutes I'm still waiting for my food but then he was good as well so no it was a really good good evening I really enjoyed it yeah no it was I was just I just hope Wayne doesn't think I'm I'm terrible otherwise he laughed I was sitting next to him I can confirm we were both laughing it was all good it wasn't bad this would be a really awkward next few weeks but yeah no it was great it was great fun though like seeing you guys as well yeah it was great fun I'm glad you lot came yeah it was really good thank you for having us also fair play to Wayne for going to Nando's in Manchester can you imagine going into a Nando's and they put us in the middle table in the middle of the restaurant didn't they Wayne as well you saw people's faces it was quite busy yeah no obviously I'd go to Nando's with the kids now as well.

4:46So I'm used to it. But yeah, it was a nice day. Nice night. And as I left Wayne on Sunday night, even to get in my taxi, who were you on FaceTime to, Wayne? Do you remember? Oh, Tyson. Yeah, Tyson. Wayne went, is your car over there? Are you all right getting your car? I was like, yeah, yeah, it's just over there. Don't worry. Sorry, got to go. Look, and just show me his phone. It was just Tyson Fury. Yeah, he's a good guy, Tyson. I reckon Wayne's list of contacts is probably the best in the business, to be honest with you. Yeah. He's got contacts in worlds you wouldn't even imagine. There's musicians.

5:22Do you speak to Tyson regularly, Wayne? Yeah, I speak to Tyson, yeah. Not all the time, but obviously now and again, me speaking, no, he's a good light, Tyson. I would like to see him get back in the ring just one more time, but I'm not sure. Okay, let's move on because it is an international break. So there's lots of talk at the moment around England and Steven Gerrard, a friend of yours as well, Wayne, has been speaking this week about the kind of so-called golden generation which you were part of um he's been on Rio's pod and he said that the England squad back then were egotistical losers obviously I've just pulled out two words from a wider context um there but he's basically said that because of your egos perhaps that's why you didn't have the success that individually when you looked at you and put you all together we would have expected you to have what did you make of for those comments?

6:10Yeah, obviously, we didn't win anything, so, yeah, I wouldn't quite put it that way, but I think, I know what he's saying, because there was a lot of big characters in the dressing room and in the team, so to get us all in the team, obviously, the main one, obviously, Lampard, Scoles, and Gerrard, and you have to put Michael Carrick in that as well, obviously, a really good player and didn't play as much as he probably should have for England as well. So, yeah, I see his comments about going up and having like seven hours in his room and stuff. That was tough at times because you're just lying in bed and watching TV and have food and then go to sleep.

6:58So, yeah, a few players did that. I tried to keep myself busy. I'd be always in the hotel. I'd be in the massage room, the physio room and try and keep myself busy. But yeah, I think we spoke a lot over that generation of players. And when you look back with the players we had, could we have done better? I think we could have, but it wasn't a bit. I guess at the time, we were watching it as fans and we don't understand football to the same level as these guys. But it did just feel like it was like we've got the best, most of the best players in the world here. Like it didn't make sense, did it almost?

7:35that we weren't having a success. No, it didn't. But I mean, looking back on it as well, the international size you had during that period were very, very strong as well. Yeah, it's true. If you look back at certain World Cups and you look at every team, they were stacked full of good players. And England had equally just as good players, but for some reason it didn't click. But one thing that I saw in that interview that really stuck with me was when Steven Gerrard said that he's got a better relationship now with Rio than he did when they were playing. And he's got a better relationship with a lot of the players that he played with for England now.

8:07And I was like, oh, that's interesting because why couldn't you have had that when you were playing? But obviously, I think a lot of club rivalries got in the way of that. Yeah, I think it's difficult to have that relationship with, you know, Liverpool playing in Man United. But I think it's easier now. I think players do. Now, I speak to Stephen all the time when we were playing, and obviously both scousers, but yeah, you do have better relationships. You know, we met up, I think he'd done that interview when we were in Korea. And I think it's better relationships now because you can go and have a beer together and you relax a bit more rather than just always being serious in football.

8:55Were you aware of it at the time? Like, did you feel the pressure from the outside? Did you feel that things weren't quite right within the squad? No, I've said this before. I didn't see that, I didn't feel that. Did you feel it? I know you've said it with you though, but could you see it with other groups? Yeah, so maybe I was just thinking of, you know, I was fine with everyone. I got on with everyone and I had no issues. So I was aware that obviously, you know, I think with Bex and Guy Neville and Scolzi and that, you could see they weren't really, they weren't going to be close to Liverpool players.

9:29but I think one thing for sure, everyone would work hard for each other and try for each other and run for each other. So I don't think that was an issue. It was more, yeah, it's Liverpool, Man United, or Liverpool, Chelsea, Man United, Arsenal, whatever it was. And we just didn't manage to get over the land. But I didn't see it. I didn't see that at all. Wayne, do you see when they say this England team has a better sort of team attitude rather than the one that you had? Is it down to the manager? Because when people say Gareth Southgate had a lot of influence in it, I mean, what was he doing?

10:05Was he getting them all around to play card games or something? Or is it just more down to the players themselves? No, I wouldn't say better attitude because I think that's disrespectful really to us as players. And if that's the case, because we worked hard, we tried. We didn't quite manage to do it. But I think what you have now, you know, you have players. I've seen them, you know, training before they go back to pre-season together and, you know, Phil Foden and Rashford, for instance, and together. And I think, yeah, it's a different generation, really, I think. And I think the big thing is the media coverage of it is much better.

10:51The players, I think, Kelly, you see the players at England as well. They get on better with the media and obviously that from the outside gives a better feeling. Why do you think that is though? Why do you think they get on better with a million? There's little things that they've done and I know Wayne, you've said that in like towards the end of your England career, you could kind of see it changing a little bit, couldn't you? For example, so I've been covering England since 2021. My first tournament was the Euros that they got to the final in this country and there was things and Wayne, I imagine this blows your mind to think of this happening now.

11:24We played darts against, I played darts against Mason Mount at the last tournament. I played it against Jarrod Bowen. They've done kind of little things like that. Like, I guess when that was like out of the question, your time, it felt very separate, the media and then the players. Yeah, so even just that there alone, there was a big, big thing on when we were playing that. It was actually the same, but we obviously didn't play with the media then. And it was constant on like, what are you doing playing that? Or who's playing? Who's doing this? And it became quite a big thing, actually. And we're obviously, because the media are in there, it becomes more of a relaxed, friendly story which goes out.

12:02So it's just, obviously, everyone wants to feel relaxed. I think the big thing was actually giving the media the opportunity to see what the players do during the tournament and how they do relax and how much they care as well. Because I think you can see that when players are sat around the hotel or they are playing in whatever games they've gone to the games room, you can see how much they care and want to win. you see when you were when you were in the camps when you were with England did you guys believe that you could win the World Cup or Euros did you speak about it with each other yeah 100 % I think my first one in 2004 I remember looking thinking the pathway for us if we beat Portugal was okay so yeah you're looking at who you potentially could play and stuff like that and obviously you don't want to look past the game you've got but you know naturally you do do that and yeah but we believe we can win for sure.

13:04When you look back on it all Wayne do you think that the managers or anyone could have done anything differently during that period? I'm not asking you to call anyone out but like. Oh no I think the obvious one was when Sven said if these 11 plays are fit they'll start. So then for the other lads that was tough. you know you get lads coming in and what's the point in being here stuff like that so that was tough but yeah different managers do different things Capello changed a lot of the food we had and it took it out to your routine and then he completely went the other way like for instance we got a a guy taking all your body fat and I think it was Matthew Upson he tried to put on like and Matthew has got no fat on him whatsoever and he was telling me he had to lose like four kilos before a tournament which is crazy and the players obviously are on top of everything we do with our clubs and so Capello went extreme with it and that didn't work but yeah it was always fine we had everything the food was good the facilities were good and that's all we needed really Another story coming out of the England camp this week and this maybe goes back to what you're saying, Wayne, about players feeling more comfortable now and kind of being more open with this, with the media, having a better relationship.

14:28John Stone said he considered retiring last season because of injury. He only played, I think it was 11 league games last season and he didn't make another appearance from February. It was quite shocking to hear him say that, but also quite nice. I don't know if you know him. I've interviewed him a few times and he seems like a great lad. So good to see him back in there and back in the England squad. Yeah, that's a surprise to hear him say that, but that's what it can do to you. When you keep getting injured, it's hard because you want to play and you're seeing your teammates going out and training every day and playing in big games and it can have an effect on you and you do start thinking of different things.

15:05I was fortunate, I never really had big injuries, but I've seen players who have injuries and it's hard and you're going in every day and you're in the gym and your teammates out on the pitch and it can be stressful. For you, when you look back on your decision to retire, was it a slow burner was it something that you knew was coming for quite a while or was there one moment where it just hit you yeah I got off the manager's job was it literally but had you been thinking about it before then um no it's not for manager no um I went out of derbies player coaching um so my whole reason of going to the state was um to experience football you know different way, different league, different culture and then I got offered to play a coach role at Derby and I thought you had to go into the championship and I'd never played in the championship before and see that league as well and I was fit, I could have played on quite comfortably and Philip Cock who got sacked and yeah they offered me the job, I'd done it for a couple of games while I was still playing and I knew I couldn't continue to do that it was too much work and yeah so I literally went from playing to managing in the same day Do you kind of regret losing those?

16:22Do you feel like you lost those years as a player now because you became a manager quicker than maybe you thought? Yeah you look at it and you know I dropped back into midfield and midfielders mightn't tell you but it is a lot easier playing midfield than it is a forward. Is it? Yeah. What about it's easier? It's not as, there's more high-speed running as a forward and you're running channels and it's more aggressive in my field. Especially if I was playing as a number six so I had young legs around me who I could coach during the game and help out as well. But yeah, it's more of a box-to-box endurance in my field.

17:05what's that dynamic like as a player coach because I imagine it's a bit weird when you're stepping into it because one minute you're coaching one minute you're a player how do you do that? Yeah you don't do much coaching because obviously you're training but I think it's just the start of that transition to get you into when you do stop playing so I've been in the office with Kaku and his coaches every morning going through what training sessions we're doing with the team so I don't always pick myself. Yeah, you're going through the team. But then I said to the players, I said, listen, because then I'm getting changed with the players in the dressing room.

17:46So I said, listen, whatever gets said in here, we'll not go into that coach's office. Could you feel them change around you? Did they change around you or was it all right? No, because when I went in, I was player coach from the first day I went in. So the first thing I said is, whatever you say in here, we'll not go back in that dressing room. because you have to trust your teammates. I never did go in and say anything, but what it did give me is when I became manager, I knew which players I wanted to get rid of. This is summer at its peak. Whole Foods Market Summer Fruit Fest is your invitation to eat the season.

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19:39did you think it almost made it easier that you were going into coaching and you kind of had that seamless transition because I guess some people just stop playing and then have to start coaching whereas you kind of did it all in one almost yeah no but then looking back as well it's um you know I mean you missed then because I went straight in with the first team you missed them development years of your coaching in terms of, you know, do you go and take an under-18 team or an under-21 team and so you miss out on that really, so you can look at it both ways, you get an opportunity at first team level or you miss out on that development part of it so yeah, it was either way, it didn't obviously quite work out, but at Derby we actually did quite well, but yeah, going back I probably would have wanted to go in a new team level first.

20:29What would you say is the hardest part of kind of that realisation of you're not the player you once were? Because you were used to playing at the very top in top competitions and it kind of has to, it changes, doesn't it, towards the end of your career? Did you not see that goal with DC United where he ran back? I don't think he even noticed. No, you realise and I think if you're honest with yourself, you know what you kind of can't do. well you changed position didn't you as well yeah but I always knew I was going to do that I knew that would happen so but if you know what you can do and can't do then that's a big help because when you see players who try and carry on at the top level and they just can't do it anymore it's not nice to watch so I agree realisation and come to terms with it, it's too quick What are the things that you realised you couldn't do?

21:27Sprint is hard. And then, yeah, your recovery and stuff. You spoke there a lot about the physical side of things, but the mental side of it as well. Because you can prepare your body, but how do you prepare your mind? It's quite easy really in terms of that's what you've done your whole career. So you know how to prepare yourself and get ready. and I think when you know what games you've got coming up and what's in front here your whole for instance if you play Saturday Tuesday, Saturday I know in the training sessions how to get through the session when you're experienced you know how to get through the session without wasting too much energy so you keep that energy for the game so your mind prepares for that it's not that difficult obviously the physical side when you get a bit older is the more difficult one.

22:21Yeah, I guess for me, the one thing I always wonder, Kate, I think with players, they have this incredible career playing at the top and your whole life is governed by football. Wayne's spoken about it there, Saturday, Tuesday, Saturday, Tuesday. When they stop, I kind of wonder, I think about it with my job. Oh, the boredom would do my head in. But if my job's just to stop, then what do you do? Like, just mentally and that side of things as well. The boredom would do my head and I'd probably end up taking up golf. Well, he has, hasn't he? Yeah. And I've never watched a day of golf in my life.

22:47But yeah, I don't know. you'd probably be trying to pack your day full of like different things and there's only so much paddle or whatever you can play after a while. Yeah no it is the one for me was after the Birmingham job I'd done before I got Plymouth in I had a period in there where a bit lost really and you know the kids have gone to school and you you're just like what are you doing? Just go to sleep? Yeah watching Loose Women in the morning it's like what's my life come to here but no and then you do and then so you you just gotta try and fill your time and and stay occupied do you really watch Loose Women?

23:35no it went on I turned it off quite quick has your retirement changed once you stopped playing? like what did you think because I guess the whole way through as a player you're not really thinking about retirement are you? No not really but then you you are planning so obviously me going to America going into the championship was was planning for me going into coaching so you do when you when you start getting towards your 30s and you're doing your coaching badges and stuff you do start planning from that point of view but then when it does come yeah it's it is strange and I was lucky obviously I went straight into jobs and coaching jobs so I was still around from that point of view when you're now for instance you're not you're not going into a dressing room you're not part of that so it's important that you you occupy yourself and keep yourself busy and now he's just stuck talking to us yeah can I get rid of his he's really gone he's been stuck with us literally all week he wants to go back into playing I think what I was going to ask is you know there's certain players that are doing stuff now that they're retired that are quite random in comparison to who they are were there any surprises of ex-players of what area they've gone into that you never thought they'd go into Scaldi because he's never really done interviews Scaldi and so I thought he'd I thought you would never see Scaldi again he's still playing and then yeah maybe Roy as well maybe but But no, I think Rio is doing exactly what we thought he would do.

25:21Everywhere he goes, he's got his cameras with him. So yeah, no, I don't think there's... I think apart from that, everyone's pretty normal. Was Michael Carrick always going to be a manager? Because you said he likes a party. No, it didn't surprise me. But yeah, I think vice versa. I think people would probably look at me as well and say that so when you get towards the end of career you don't know what way it's going to take you what pathway what journey you're going to be on so you get opportunities and you go and try and take them Tom Cleverley's doing he's done well at Watford gone to Plymouth so I think when you've got younger teammates you're never looking at them thinking they're going to management so the older ones are probably looking at me like that and that's where I look at Tom Cleverley but you get opportunities season you've got to take them if you want them it's like kieran richardson isn't it he sells watches and stuff now isn't it so that was a bit of a pivot um yeah i don't know i haven't seen him for years how do you know that that's such a niche thing to know oh he had a youtube channel about a while back and it was like reviewing watches and stuff you watched that did you yeah it was good it was good i was like i was like i wonder if i could get a richard mill and then the answer was pretty astoundingly no.

26:42I think this is all quite interesting. Talking about this discussion to retire, it feels topical in terms of player welfare, Wayne, because there's been a lot of conversation, hasn't there, about the fixture calendar. I saw Thierry Henry and Michael Richards speaking about it last week. Jurgen Klopp also kind of voiced his concerns over the Club World Cup and player burnout because obviously I think that's brought it back into focus, hasn't it, with Chelsea winning that and the short pre-season that they had. Do you think that players are kind of at risk? Do you think that there needs to be something looked at to kind of help manage their workload a little bit more?

27:14I think the Club World Cup, I think for me, that's just ridiculous from my point of view. You know, you have all these clubs in UEFA, in FIFA, whatever, you know, talking about the Super League and all that. That's basically what they've done. you've got a club world cup and the premier league champions aren't even in them doesn't make sense and so yeah but then I think throughout the season just get on with the game and play and it's not that many games more and there is more rotation now as well and the squads are bigger they've got everything they need to recover I think just get on with it and play and if you win as well you don't feel tired with obviously tournaments and international games we used to you know get three weeks really and then that doesn't sound much yeah your body's just winding down and you've got to get going again but yeah but then obviously I've had six weeks off and it's too long you want to get back into it so I think I think four four or five weeks is a good amount of time really for to have off to have your the holidays and your body to you know recoup itself and get ready to go I sound like the actual mental health uh kind of monitor on this podcast um but just asked you before about mentally but that's what I always think like when I go on holiday I'm on holiday now and it's raining and it's horrible and I'm finding myself on my laptop and doing things I don't want to be doing but you go away to kind of mentally check out do players not need to yeah and that's where we used to get a bit of stick really when we go after the tournament if you get knocked out and the next day if you're on a flight to vegas or to ibita or whatever because your days go then you're back in yeah you're back in sailing so you've got to try and when we get knocked out of a tournament you're devastated but you've got to then try and get your rest in and to get away and firstly you want to get away from everything if you've been knocked out of the tournament you do want to try and get away from everything and secondly you haven't got that much time off so you do try and get away as quick as you can and we used to get to stick obviously because and I understand that people would be like oh he got knocked out of a tournament yesterday but oh he's alright he's on their way to Vegas so I get it but you do need to time get away quite quickly.

29:59I don't know if I would have coped with how it was this year in terms of the Club World Cup and then the time the lads had off and then the State of the Premier League time. I would certainly would have pulled that up with the manager and said I wouldn't want to play now. Do you know one thing that would have excited me about retirement or the season ending if I was a player? It would have been all the food I could have had. Yeah, but can you do that when you've only got three weeks off, Kay? Yeah, yeah, come on. You can pack a lot in. What did you used to do with your holidays, Wayne? Would you just go on holiday and do what Kay said and eat everything?

30:35Surely you can't really get me. I actually eat. I've always had quite well. It was more than alcohol when I was off. So, yeah, food-wise, I've always had quite well. But you do, but you need that blowout as well. I think that's important. I think the culture has changed even from when we were playing. You go away and you was eating and drinking when you was off. I think now the players go away and they're taking personal trainers with women. I was going to say, did you ever do that? You see them out in Dubai, don't you? They put all the photos on their Instagram. They're taking the photographer to show them training abroad.

31:16Did you guys do that? No.

31:21I kind of knew the answer to that. Yeah, but it's only an hour a day as well. I always find those. But you've got to take the photographer to get it for Instagram. Yeah, I know. But I find those Instagram posts funny, yeah. Just keep changing the talk. Yeah. You could do that one hour, just bang out a bunch of videos and go, look how hard I've been working. I don't get that because a game where you're talking about players complaining to too many games and managers complaining to too many games. So this is your opportunity to rest. So take your rest. your body needs it needs to recover and get itself ready to start up again if you don't have that period of rest your body's just constantly going and you probably will never get to peak level except if you're on holiday in Dubai and Wayne Rooney wants to meet with you at the top of the log flume about signing for another club don't mentally switch off then no but yeah I think physically though you do need to switch off yeah I want to go back to Kay's question there because Kay, we could have had a good conversation about eating and stuff.