Rooney SETTLES Midfield Debate: Gerrard, Lampard, Scholes & Keane

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1:47I think Beck's led in different ways. One of the biggest compliments I can give back is he didn't stop running. He was an example to all the players. So for me, the one who in Premier League history, I'd have to say he's c***. He's the one who could do things which no one else could do. You know, he asked Fletcher not to charge his phone at the last minute, which is fine, but then we could be laughing at him but he's taking his phone off charge.

2:10OK, today we're going to talk about midfielders. Wayne, on one of the previous shows, you talked about Clarence Sadoff as being the best performance you've played against. So we thought we'd try and drill down into the best midfielders that you've played with and talk about their importance. And we're going to talk about different categories and stuff. And I'm wondering if maybe, given the fact that you played in midfield, you might want to name yourself in some of these categories. I think we should talk about firstly, what makes a great midfielder? Well, it depends obviously what you're looking for.

2:36You're looking for a midfielder who scores goals. Then you're looking at Lampard, early goals. Gerrard scored a lot of goals as well. Or you're looking for someone who's going to patrol in front of your back four. Whatever, so it depends on what you're looking for, but I think a great midfielder is someone who knits the team together for me. Also, this depends on if we're talking about when you were playing in midfield. Like, you must have a different appreciation for midfielders when you were playing in a more advanced role or when you dropped into midfield. Yeah, well, when I dropped into midfield, I preferred to play deeper.

3:07Yeah. In a deeper role in midfield where, as I said before, you know, in terms of arriving in the penalty box, Lampard was the best and he was incredible at that. and then people say about Roy Keane for instance Roy Keane, I only played with him for 18 months but people say I have to hold him with a field but Roy Keane was a boxed midfielder I think he scored 50, I know he scored his 50th goal when I was there so he still scored goals but also his passing his passing between lands was crisp it was the right footed detail on it so yeah there's different types of midfielders and normally the midfielders are the ones who drive the game for you Okay, let's break this down into five categories because otherwise we could probably talk about so many different ones.

3:51Let's start with the engine room. There's a few to choose from. We've tried to pick some, haven't we? Park Ji-sung, Darren Fletcher, Owen Hargreaves or, surprise shout, Jordan Henderson. Yeah, no, I think, listen, I didn't play with Jordan enough. So obviously if you like someone from Liverpool or, well, you probably weren't even younger to them. but you should probably ask someone from Liverpool they can give you a better opinion on Jordan but when you look at Fletch and Jason Park their energy which they give you was incredible and a bit not underrated I wouldn't say because from the teammates we knew exactly what they were giving us but they don't obviously get the credit and the headlines which Well they called him Three Lungs Park G was incredible both of them G and Fletch I remember doing the bleep test and Fletch would always finish the bleep test and stuff so they were incredible but for me I'd probably say Jason Park for me and he obviously wasn't a centre midfield player played there now and again but in terms of what he'd done and you know his commitment you never have to worry so for the actual two centre midfield players who were in there you knew that he was always tucked in alongside him to make it difficult to have more men behind the ball so I'd say for me he was just the one who never stopped How much did it help you?

5:12because I suppose that must have just given you the freedom to be able to go off and do the more creative stuff and also not have to worry as much. Yeah, it's massive. And I think obviously I've played that wide as well. And so I know what that is. So you're always trying to run and help back and whatever. But I just think for when you've got players who will work both ways, and Jeeva's effective, he's scored goals. If you look at some of the counter-set goals we scored, he was involved in quite a few of them as well. so we weren't just a player who'd helped out defensively he'd always get forward and chip in that way as well but it just gives you as an attacking player it gives you that that freedom to know that you know when you lose the ball he's going to be back in there he's going to be running back Was he like that in training as well?

5:56Yeah Do you know what there was times in training it happened a few times where you've got the ball and you look up and then you go to move the ball and the ball's gone and he'd just come and rob it off you and you wouldn't even hear him coming so it was mad we used to laugh about it but yeah I think in terms of someone who you'd won in your team because of what they bring both from an attacking point of view but also a defensive point of view especially in big games if you look at the big games for Fletch and Jason Park they played in most of the big games what was he like off the pitch as a lad he was quite shy shy lad quiet there was a threesome of him, Patsy Severa and Carlos Tevez, which was the weirdest group you'd ever see and how them three communicated.

6:49But yeah, no, he was quite quiet and shy and, you know, never wanted attention, never wanted to be, say, didn't speak unless spoken to, but he was, like, really quiet and a shy lad. I'd love to know what he made of you. Yeah, he used to just laugh a lot of times when you'd have him banter or mess mad. you just see him chuckling in the corner. What about Owen Hargreaves? What was he like? Owen was a very good player. I think he was quicker than what people thought he was. And his issue, obviously, was he picked up a lot of injuries. But he was important to us when we won the Champions League, we won the Premier League.

7:27He's a very important player for us. And for England as well, I think he had some of his better games in the bigger games as well. So, yeah, I couldn't say... put him in the category of Fletcher and G in terms of, if you're saying about an engine room, people who are going to keep going because he did break down quite a bit with injuries. And if he didn't, then, you know, he would have been top, top. I always find it fascinating because I've worked with Owen a lot as a broadcaster and he is the most chilled out man, isn't he? Like off the pitch. He's the most like polar opposite. So when we talk about him like as a player, I find it really hard.

8:02It's like two very different people. Yeah, no, he was very confident. I wouldn't hear him he was always confident and you know if you'd ask Owen then he was the best player in the world and that's what he felt which is good to feel that way but he had so much ability you know his set pieces was brilliant you know his little passes he'd lay off his movement at times in the midfield as well defensively it was like a little rash getting to the ball whatever but unfortunately he didn't stay fit long enough he was one of those players though I feel like because he kept getting picked for England And a lot of England fans unfairly used to be like, why is he getting picked?

8:39Who is he? And then I think once he came into the Premier League, people saw how good he really can be. Do you think that fans, and particularly maybe you as a Manchester United fan, I don't know if this position is underrated. I don't think any United fan underrates Jisung Park. I think any United fan knows how good Jisung Park was. But I think probably like the wider football fans don't probably appreciate him as much as United fans did. But I mean, Fergie talks about how much, how important he was. And there were some games where he wished he'd played him instead of other players, because he thinks if he'd have put G-sung Park on Messi in one of the finals, it'd have been a different story.

9:18But that shows how important he was to him. But yeah, I think all Manchester United fans absolutely love them because I think particularly for us fans, all we want to see is a player try, even if you're not good enough, at least try it. right? But G-Sang Park would always give 100 % and you'd see him on the field give everything and we probably can attest to that. I think with G what he'd give you as a team remember when you said the man just said you should have put him on Messi I remember he put him on Perlow when we played at AC Milan and I think Perlow's stat was he played 90 to 100 passes per game and like 75 of them were forward passes and the manager put him on Perlow and I think Perlow had 35 passes in the game Wow and like 25 of them were backward passes so you could see he's he's sacrificed this game just to take Perlow's game away from him which then gives us a better chance of winning Of course yeah Okay let's move on to the next category then the leader and there's a few we kind of thought of here you could probably say yourself in this one you could probably say yourself in a few of them actually I think yeah for all of these Steven Gerrard at England potentially Roy Keane at Manchester United who stands out for you?

10:38Yeah I think certainly Stevie for England and for Liverpool obviously you see what a leader he was for Liverpool became captain at such a young age Roy I didn't play with enough again to see that so I couldn't really say you could see how much of a leader he was towards the end of his career so he didn't play enough But what was he like around the training ground and stuff? Yeah, no, he was, but you can see he was, I need to have a go with players, rightly or wrongly. I remember having a go with Fletch. I felt a bit unfair because Roy done the exact opposite to what he asked Fletch not to do. What was that?

11:16He asked Fletch not to charge his phone in the last minute. What was his reasoning? No, you shouldn't have your phone in the last minute, which is fine. But then we come in after saying Roy's taking his phone off charge. Fair enough. What did Fletch say? No, I'm laughing, but no, that's Roy. So yeah, I didn't really play with Roy long enough, but you certainly see how much related that Roy was. I was going to ask one question. There's always players like Roy King that people talk about. Were there elements of people being scared of him in a dressing room? Or is that just a bit of a mix? I know he wasn't, but like, were certain players scared of certain...

11:51There was a few, yeah. Who was scared of Roy King? I don't know. You can't reveal that, yeah. No, there was a few. And especially if you're a young lad coming into the team, then there should be that sort of intimidation and that bit of fear with senior players. Of course, there should be. So, yeah, I think Roy had that. And then, again, that's part of being a captain as well. And then, Stevie has mentioned Fliftpool. Who else would you pick? In midfield. And Michael Carrick as well. And I'll be wearing a captain. But I think just very, very quiet the way he goes about his business, his day-to-day in training how he played the game and he had moments in his career Michael where the manager wouldn't play him for some reason in certain moments of his career but yeah I think you don't always have to be vocal to be like David Beckham was very similar with England he was never the most vocalist but he led by example on the pitch so yeah I think for them four goals he was more a game was quiet and make last decisions in terms of when he went for tackles and stuff.

13:00That's one way of putting it. Yeah, that's what it is. No, for me, I'd probably say Giggsie as well. I forgot about Giggsie. Giggsie was a fantastic leader as well. And a lot of these haven't got the armband on or not captain. Was there any bits of leadership that you took from any of these players that you're talking about once you became captain? Yeah, you try and take bits of everyone. Like Stevie, by example, with his actions on the pitch how he tried to force the game or drag his team back into a game Giggsie was more with taking risks how he used to lead the team in terms of sometimes the game's tight and he'd try and play a pass which a lot of players would not try and make Michael as I said is ordered on the pitch is present on the pitch he's big like Michael I don't think people realise how big he is He's taller isn't he?

13:51When I saw him in a tunnel I was like oh and that kind of gives a bit of intimidation almost Yeah he's bigger than what people think and then just his presence in that midfield as well if you like so yeah I think there's a few to choose from Did you always know Michael was going to be a manager? You've known him for a long time, known him well No but I didn't think we'd have conversations I spoke to him before he went in at Middlesbrough and whether he wanted to go into it or not and at that time he was unsure because he's a massive family man, Michael, and he wants to go and enjoy his time with his kids.

14:27And I think his kids have got a little bit older now. And then he made that decision, obviously, to go into Middlesbrough. Done really well there. And then, obviously, now he's got the opportunity at Manchester United. So, yeah, I don't think you do. I'm sure if you asked him about me going into management or would I have said Tom Cleverley would have gone into management, then you can never see it, really. Of course, yeah. What about Bex? I know you said he led by example, but I felt like there was certain games where it was more than leading by example. It was like he just took the game by the scruff of the neck, especially for England.

15:01Yeah, no, I think Bex led in different ways. Again, he had all the charisma about him and how he played the game. One of the biggest compliments I can give Bex is he didn't stop running. He constantly was saying, going back to the engine room before, he didn't stop running. he was an example to all the players so we get Joe Cole comes into the squad and he's more of a flair player and whatever he's got no excuse not to run back if Bex is running back and do that and he's the captain so Bex had this awe about him which both on and off the pitch which I think but he wouldn't be he weren't the most vocal he didn't speak the most Did he not?

15:43That's what I was going to ask what was he like as a speaker? No he'd speak but he wouldn't constantly be you know speaking on the pitch the way a real or a john terry would for instance um he was more more quiet and spoke when he felt was the best b2b marketing gets wasted on the wrong people so when you want to reach the right professionals use linkedin ads linkedin has grown to a network of over 1 billion professionals including 130 million decision makers and that's where it stands apart from other ad buys you can target your buyers by job title industry company role seniority, skills, company revenue, so you can stop wasting budget on the wrong audience.

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17:16Do you feel like now maybe these kind of players aren't as prevalent in the modern game? Do you feel like there is a lot more of leading by example in terms of the way you play rather than the leaders that maybe you had in your generation? I don't know how to put this. I think the game is so, it's almost like a chess game. It's always been that way, but now there's not really as much playing off the cuff to what it was. So everything is a plan. is, everything is, you know, we want it this way and you have to move through the lines this way and, which then everyone has a, has a voice, but if you look at the players I'm speaking about here, I haven't even spoken about Lampard, yeah, they do things off the cuff, Gerrard, Beckham, There was a lot more individuality, wasn't it?

18:01And they do things off the cuff and they had that mindset and mentality to go against what maybe the managers asked to do and that's what brings the best out of these players. So how would you choose a captain now as a manager? Because if you're seeing less of these personalities, you're seeing less people doing stuff. I think you'd want someone you'd want someone who the players respond to. Okay. So someone who, you know, do the players respect, they respond to when they speak. What do they respond to? A lot of the time it's the best player. Right. I think if you look at Harry Kane at England, for instance, people will respond to him and listen to what he's got to say because he's the best player, firstly.

18:43I think that's why you see Messi a captain, Ronaldo a captain. You're seeing the best players become the captain because that brings a lot of what you need to be a captain with it. So when you went into managerial jobs, did you look around, take a little bit of time to work out who your leaders and your captain was in that way? Yeah, you'd see quite quickly. You'd see who's the main characters in the dressing room and you'd figure that out. so when I went for Plymouth for instance Joe Edwards was the captain and there was talk of Joe Edwards leaving the club and he was my first phone call I made was to Joe like at C-State's way and how he spoke and he was confident in how he spoke and what he thought about the club and what he thought about teammates and then he ended up staying sometimes you don't have to change you don't have to change anything within who your captain is but then there's other times you go in and for instance I changed at Diary County Curtis Davis captain and then the start of the next season I changed it and put Tom Lunds captain now that was not because Curtis weren't a good captain, he was a great captain but I knew that I could get 10 % more out of Tom so that's why I put Tom Lunds captain and I spoke with Curtis and said listen you don't need the armband to be captain, Curtis played every game that season played 46 games, didn't miss a minute in that season but it actually did give us 10 % more of Tom Rodden so sometimes you make a decision for that situation as well But I guess you have to know that the player that you're taking it off you had to know that Curtis could handle it You don't want to kill him in the process No of course and Curtis was old enough and wise enough to know and explain the reason why I was doing it and so he knew that was the reason It goes back to what you said I think aura is a really big thing isn't it?

20:31And leaders need to have that aura around them Yeah you do I think firstly you need people to listen to what you're saying and believe in what you're saying. Otherwise, the minute you haven't got that, then you're in trouble. And with all these players I'm talking about, they all add that. They all add that. You know, if they tell you something, they speak, you'd listen. And they've had the experience of being through what they were telling you as well. I think that's, for me, that's what makes the best captain is your teammates are going to listen to you about what you're saying on the pitch or off the pitch.

21:03Let's move on to the brain There's going to be a few shouts here I also get the feeling like with the brain You don't want to miss out anyone do you Because you don't want to make out you're saying someone's thick No but we know what we mean by the brain I think like Paul Scholes immediately comes up As a name when you're talking about like Somebody that's got an incredible football brain on the pitch Possibly Michael Carrick If you look at all them Scholes, Carrick Giggs You know very intelligent football players And I put Lampard In there as well with them fun. Lampard weren't as subtle as Dempsey, I'd say, but Lampard's intelligence in getting in that penalty area and the timing of when he's making that run into penalty area to be on the end of things was the best out of any midfield player.

21:51And it was the fact that he would do it like all the time and all it took was one time for it to pay off. And I think a lot of people never saw the amount of runs he would make into the ball. Yeah, well Lamps was, and I'm sure he might tell you this himself Lambs was a connector he'd get the ball a lot of time he'd get off John Terry in that little left hand side he'd lay it off and then as the game's moving forward as the ball would be going out wide players turn their back on Frank because they're going to stay with the ball and then what he'd do he'd his timing of his run to make sure he gets in that penalty box it was never a sprint but then that last second he sees that space get in that space.

22:31So the intelligence to be able to do that and hold back and then to make that run to get on the end of it was incredible. And what about Paul Scoles as well then? Because as you, that was the one that stood out to me and I'm not even a Manchester United fan. What was his football brain like? Just how clever and smart was he to play with alongside as well? Yeah, Scaldi was incredible just and you think when he started I think he was a forward then a 10 then an 8 then a 6 so he's played through all them positions and played off the left for England as well but no he's played in all them positions and he was basically a Barcelona player if you look at Busquets, Xavi and Iniesta he fits into that in terms of you know when he's coming to show off the ball you're thinking she'll get tight to him and then you get tight and he lays it off then you've got to get back into your shape then it happens again you get tight he lays it off then the one time you don't do it he gets tight he gets turns and then he plays his passes which everyone knows about so he was so clever in terms of when to hold on to the ball or when to lay it off one or two touches and make it really difficult because he was never the quickest he was sharp his little movements were sharp but he was never the quickest but you just couldn't get anywhere near him That's what having a good football brain is though isn't it as well knowing he probably knew he wasn't the quickest so you have to kind of play to your own skills Yeah and again we're talking about the brain he was quicker than anyone else up here and he always, if you look at him when teams pressure in tight areas, he always had time.

24:04So he always, you know, he was always looking, he was always seeing where the opponents were and he always had time on the ball. And that's purely just from understanding when to play one touch or when to hold on to it and get turned. And players like Scolzi, Xavi, very similar as well, it's a nightmare to play against because you know you need to get close to them because they hear you were passing. but you know the minute you get closer, you're just going to pass it off. So there's no right and wrong thing to do. You're in trouble either way, whatever decision you make. I think what you pointed out there, like sometimes their physical capabilities might be lacking or might be on the downward, but because of their football brain, they're able to do more than they should be able to at that age.

24:48But I think there was a name that you mentioned, like Ryan Giggs, and I feel like he's probably a prime example of that because for a lot of people, they remember Ryan Giggs as this like marauding winger, on the left wing running at pace and then later on in his career he was like 39 in central midfield bossing it against Real Madrid like and and that takes a football brain as well. Yeah it does and so with Giggs you know he's adapted his game master he was a flying winger and and then to to then adapt Giggs he had you know one of the best left foot I've seen and you're right what people say about his dribbling but when Giggs gets on the ball and gets to arm the ball or just gets turned.

25:27Giggsie for me was the one player who every time he gets turned I'd run. Wow. So he was the one where when he gets turned I'd make it run in behind and Michael Carrick was the one player when he'd get the ball in turn I'd look to get his feet. So you have different connections with different players and because Giggsie was not afraid to take that risk mentioned before to look for in behind to try and penetrate the back line and he'd give the ball away so he'd give the ball away quite a bit Giggsie but So that one or two times you get you through, then you get you through and go. Okay, let's move on to the complete midfielder.

26:00There is definitely going to be some repetition here because we've already been through a few categories. There's a number of names here. We've got Steven Gerrard, Frank Lampard, Roy Keane, who we've already mentioned. There's a few others as well that we were kind of thinking about. What about the likes of like Ross Barkley, Jack Wilshere, Dele Alli, players like that, that maybe you didn't play with for quite as long? No, I think Dele was more of a 10. and obviously he hasn't played he had two or three periods where he played and he was he was fantastic and you're thinking this lad could go anywhere and unfortunately that hasn't been the case and Ross I think was similar and his career stalled a little bit and Jack when he come through I think he had the game with Barcelona for Arsenal and again picked up his injuries and never really I remember speaking to Jack about maybe adapting his game a little bit a big part of Jack Kane was getting in driving at people and driving past him but quite a bit he'd overrun and then he'd go into a tackle and then get injured by playing one or two he did play a bit deeper towards the end with England Did he come to you to have that conversation?

27:06No, we were just away with England so I spoke to him on that and then but when you're talking about the completing a field player there's five really for me in Premier League four are played with one I didn't and that was Gerrard, Scholes, Carrick, Vieira and Lampard. Let's talk a bit about Vieira then because we haven't mentioned him before as well. Just what was he like to play against? He was horrible. He was big. That's a compliment, right? He was big, he was arms everywhere, big long legs and again could get forward and strive forward. and it's so hard to keep up with them when they're doing that.

27:51I forgot Roy Keane of that as well. Don't want to get in trouble. But yes, and he was horrible to play against. I've met him a few times off the pitch, he's a lovely fella, but on the pitch he was nasty. Can you remember any specific battles that you had that were particularly horrible? I never really come against him at that time because I was playing more of a forward or that wide. So I didn't really come up against him head to head or whatever, but you always knew when you do go near them if I'm closing them down from the opposite side and you know you used to love it where he'd flick it over your head and get it to the side and stuff so yeah he was and then obviously he led Arsenal to them I think the two Premier Leagues the one was it and then the others obviously we spoke spoke about the other players I mentioned but for me the the complete midfield player out of all of them it has to be Gerrard really wow yeah Was it just like Everything You want in a midfield player Well he could do everything I think he's played The full back He's played midfield He plays a 10 He can tackle He can shoot He can Dictate the games He can You know Hit long passes You see him in that Period with Torres Where he's become More the assist man For Torres So everything you want In midfield player I think And he was a leader as well As you mentioned Yeah He had everything as a midfield player.

29:17Now, I would have loved to have seen him at Man United, but that would happen. Because this is quite controversial. Manchester United never seen legend picks. Liverpool legend is my midfield. No, I think you have to be respectful. And, listen, Scalzi or Carrick, in certain things, were better than Steven. What certain things? So, Carrick was more, he was calmer. He, you know, Marshall, midfield a little bit better. scold you with his long-range passing and just the ability to dictate games was better. But in terms of you put them all together, I think Stephen was the complete myfeeler. We spoke about him in the leadership section of this as well when we were talking about leaders.

29:59Have you got any good examples of England when you thought, oh, he's a good leader? There was a game against Poland. I think we need to win to qualify for the Euros or the World Cup. And we were struggling a little bit. in the game and just remember not by him saying anything but just driving forward the ball and putting tackles in and lifting not just the players but lifting the crowd I think that's how he led he'd lift his teammates around him he went that through a tackle or getting the ball and driving the ball and that lifts the crowd as well and I think in terms if you want him a field player who can do everything he has to be the one you pick What are your memories of that game because I think you scored in it Yeah, I scored there and I think we were leading 1-0.