The Michael Owen Debate & Was Louis van Gaal Better Than Fergie?

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1:13BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. I used to go out on the street and pretend to be him. He used to pretend to be Mike Lowen and even though he played for a little bit, Mike Lohr, in a three, four-year period, was probably the best sense forward in the world. And unfortunately, he did get his injuries and he probably couldn't adapt his game maybe as well as I could. What did you do to recover then? On your recovery days? Just used to drink.

1:45Well, the best of work from the world was Louis van Gaal. Really? And that might sound strange. Alex Ferguson knew exactly what he was doing and he was a genius at Wally Dog, but in terms of tactically, Ruvan Gow was the street ahead of anyone I've ever worked in. Even Sir Alex?

2:05Wayne, we were just talking, so I'm down in Whitstable for the weekend and I went in one of those, you know when you can go in a sauna and then in a plunge pool, so you do the hot and then the cold. I went somewhere like that. Did you? Absolutely annoyed the life I mean. We were just saying we wondered if you liked that kind of thing, that's why I mentioned it. I went with Cleon, like 15 minutes or whatever in one, then 15 minutes. Did you like it? I skipped to the end when the jacuzzi and I was about to jump in. There wasn't that. The one I went to didn't have that option at the end, unfortunately.

2:38But did they do that when you were playing? Did you go into ice sports? I didn't know. I had a warm bath, actually. That was probably better to be fair. That was too fayward, wasn't you? If you had the option. No, I never liked it. Sam Aldais when he came into Everton he said everyone will get fine if you don't use the cryo machine and I done it once and I was sick and I was doing it again. I tried I've tried that cryo machine like a couple times and like I never really I mean you feel great afterwards but it's like I don't I feel like two or three times and feel sick. Kay also made a really good point that apparently when you go in these cold things it like causes a stress response in your body so it actually ages you so i'm not going to be doing it anymore well i actually did loads that explains it joking joking um no i i quite enjoyed it it was quite okay would you do it what no i've done the cryotherapy stuff and i've done my ice baths but the plunge pool is a bit more fun than the cryotherapy machine because the cryotherapy machine you've got to wear like the hat and the gloves and everything don't you when when you go in because there's certain bits that otherwise like you'll get like frostbite or whatever it is it's terrifying it's like minus To be honest, I don't like any of them.

3:51I'm going to be honest. Why was Big Sam making you do that, though? Do you know what? Sam was very scientific in everything he'd done. Oh, no, serious? Yeah, he was very scientific. And he analysed the referee, the stadium, everything. And I think when I was 30 or 31 or something, I was like, Sam, come on, mate. I didn't want to feel sick. I said, I know how to recover. So I didn't do it. I guess by that stage of your career, you also know what works for you, don't you? You know your own body. So for the younger players, obviously, you're getting them into a routine, but I just couldn't do it.

4:27What did you do to recover then? On your recovery days? Damn, I just used to drink.

4:36That's my type of recovery, to be fair. I mean, it worked, didn't it? No, um... Young players listening to this, we wouldn't suggest it. I was quite lucky, actually. It's just the idea of you and Cristiano Ronaldo like exchanging notes he's going what I do to recover and you're like here's a bottle of cider mate Just a bike and pool and that was it really How's your week been otherwise Wayne? What have you been up to? Other good nights Saturday I went to Jack Grealish's 30 birthday party I filmed A League of Their Own which I think is the last series, 20th year, last series, and then went to Jack's birthday party.

5:21Any stories you can tell us on the pod? No. I knew that was coming, but you've got to try, haven't you? No, good night, really good night. No, it's useful. Go on, Kay, try and get something out of him. Well, I mean, I just want to know who else was there, but... That's about it, really. Did you see any friends? No, just friends. I think it was all the footballers away, international duty. So, yeah, just some mutual friends. Oh, nice. But he must be in, like, on a serious note, don't give me a really footballer response here. You know him well. He's clearly your friend. He must be in a really good headspace at the moment because what a few weeks for him.

6:02What a year for him, really. It's been tough. But I know he's had a daughter, hasn't he? He seems like he's settled at Everton and in a good place. Yeah, do you know what? Jack's a really kind, hard person. and I don't think that comes across as much as it probably should. He's got a big heart, he's very respectful and I think by not playing at Manchester City it was very difficult for him, I know it was. But going to Everton, it's a club which he's going to get the time, the space to go and play and enjoy his football and he started very well and hopefully that continues. Yeah, he's the kind of player I've interviewed him a few times.

6:39I remember interviewing him, it was Euro 2021 and do you remember that was when he'd be on the bench and the cameras would always pan to him and everyone was desperate for him to come on and saying, Gareth, please play him, please play him and I interviewed him once and he talked about his sister and his family. He's really family-orientated, isn't he? Yeah, he is and after the final, actually, the Euros, he gives, I don't know what boy, he gave him one of my boys, his share from the final, which they were delighted with. But yeah, no, listen, he's a very gifted player he's a little bit different to what England have so you just hope he gets back on the squad and you know yesterday I'm sure there's a possibility of that but yeah no he's just getting back playing and enjoying his football that's the main thing for him Kay when I watch him it does I know different position on the pitch but he does remind me in some ways of a Wayne Rooney in terms of like just looks like he's loving his football and is at his best when he's just able to go and do what he does well.

7:39It's definitely not the hair anyway. I was meaning in terms of football. Do you know what I mean though? When you watch him as a fan. He's a throwback to that sort of player where you don't really necessarily get in today's game where it's all very much system-based and positional and managers really get angry with a lot of players when they sort of like do their own thing. But I think Jack Grealish is sort of like a throwback to that era where it's like when you tell them like, when you give them a bit of freedom, they can produce a bit of magic and it's fun. It's a bit of nostalgia when you watch them, I think.

8:10Wayne, do you reckon we can get him on the pod? He'd be a good guess, wouldn't he? Yeah, I'm sure we'll get him on at some point. I think it should be. No, just get him back playing and let him just get back playing and enjoy it. And then I'm sure we'll get him on at some point. Forget all this small talk, Wayne, man. When are we going round to Michael Owens and having a chat? Yeah, never mind Jack Grealish. We've got more pressing matters on this show. Michael Owens has been talking on Rio's podcast. What did you make of the comments though? For people that haven't seen it, obviously he was asked about you and he did say some really nice stuff as well.

8:40But I think the ones that have got the headlines are when he was asked out of the present day strikers, who was as good as he was at 17 or 18. And he was asked to compare, I think, to you, wasn't he? yeah no listen me and Michael are very different players different attributes and Michael Owen at 17-18 was incredible I used to go out on the street and pretend to be him Mike Owen and even though he played flip but yeah so what he's saying I completely understand what he's saying but we're two completely different footballers in different styles different techniques and Mike Lowen for a three four year period was probably the best sense forward in the world and it's hard to argue against anyone coming up against Mike Lowen then unfortunately he did get his injuries and he probably couldn't adapt his game maybe as well as I could in playing from the side or playing going back into my field and so yeah listen I think it's coming to fair I think of course he's going to back himself I back myself but I never judge myself against Michael Owen because he's someone I actually looked up to and had the pleasure of playing alongside you're so humble Wayne on Saturday if that was me if I'd have won everything you'd want I'd be like I'd start bringing up my whole trophy collection there's also a level of respect there isn't there there's clear respect obviously I played with him for England and then later on in his career I'm Manchester United I was delighted for him because he'd come to Manchester United and that's a massive move for him obviously playing for the pool to come and play for Man Utd from obviously not direct but from Liverpool that's a big thing and he come and I was delighted he won the obviously he got a Premier League medal and I was really happy for him but yeah no listen I would never ever judge myself getting to Mike Long because with different players different personalities different people I respect him massively and I think for two or three years he unstoppable So I think people do forget actually how good he was.

10:52He was incredible. And me and him are different players. If I was a similar type player and we're judging ourselves, then that's different. Kay, did it surprise you that he got so involved on social media because he'd done his research, hadn't he? Yeah, he had the stats out and everything. Do you know what? I think, like Wayne said, Mike Lyon was devastating for a period of time. It was crazy. I think the thing is with Matt Lowen I think because of the way his career panned out he doesn't really have any fan base that sticks up for him so do you know what just on that I think Michael can come across a little bit boring he's not is he I've worked with him he's not boring he is one of the funniest people you'll meet yeah and being in his company honestly he's so funny and dry well that came out in that interview I think yeah I'm witty and And a lot of people think, oh, he can seem quite boring.

11:49He is so funny. So I hope he just gets that out because everyone who play with him, we know what a good lad he is. And sometimes that doesn't always come across. No, but that did come out in the interview. But what I was meaning to say was because I think the way his career went out, he didn't really have any fan base now that sort of rides for him and backs him on social media. So he sort of has to back himself, if you like, because I feel like Liverpool fans are scorned a little bit because he went to United. United fans, because he played for Liverpool, don't really want to back it for him.

12:23And I think Newcastle fans, well, they feel what they do about Michael Owen. So it's like, unless you're like a real diehard England fan, nobody really talks about Michael Owen like that, unfortunately. All the Donald fans from Massinger is piping on them.

12:40That joke, Michael. That's a great point. No, but I also think we're all kind of guilty of only thinking of like, people probably have forgotten, not forgotten Michael Owen, I'm not saying he's that old, but kids of this generation, the next generation probably don't appreciate just how good Michael Owen was. You know what, it was so good, it was an honour for me to play them. I really did look up to them. And when I was young, we have very similar pathways in terms, we both come into the England squad quite young. And then we played, we probably didn't get the best out of each other, when we did play alongside and actually he assisted me I think more than I did him which you probably think it should be the other way around so yeah listen he was incredible his injuries killed and I think there's no that one in that but for two or three period he was right up there with the best sure yeah he was he provided some of my best England memories Kay I don't know about you but like I can still picture some of his goals really vividly don't worry Wayne you did as well but like particularly growing up I can just remember them.

13:42Yeah, the goals for England especially, yeah. I mean, I wasn't necessarily cheering on any of the Liverpool ones, but when he had that burst of pace and acceleration, it was just insane. It was like there wasn't anybody that could catch him. It is, man. You remember the celebration thing, it was Newcastle, when he's rubbing his hands together. Oh, yeah. For some reason, that always sticks with me. Obviously, there was the FA Cup final against Arsenal for Liverpool when he won the FA Cup. Yeah, so, listen, he's probably just got too much into it. I'd never judge myself against Mike Lowen or anyone, to be honest.

14:21I've done what I need to do and I don't really care what I'm... Mike Lowen, whoever thinks I'm happy with what I've done, but massively respect them. I think a few people listening to this are probably going to be quite disappointed with that response, aren't they? They're going to be hoping for a bit more spiciness, but nothing but respect he's not a scouse he's Welsh so perfect time to move on we spoke there about Michael Owen providing us with some vintage England memories core how we could have done with some Michael Owen or Wayne Rooney magic on Saturday night at Villa Park 2-0 Thomas Tuchel's side beat Andorra what did we make of it Wayne firstly we said before didn't we in the last pod that sometimes these games aren't great fair to say it was exactly the same again I think it was exactly what we you expect Andorra come to try and upset it and England's professional performance to win the game 2-0 not bad and it's just the games are poor you don't enjoy it no so you want to see England play in Italy or Spain I said on the last one and until you do them you actually don't know where England are at so exactly what I expected 2-3-4-0 comfortable win move on what's it like playing in those games way horrible horrible I feel for the players in those I think that's why the Nations League when it came in was actually quite good to begin with because it made those then we got relegated yeah South Wales did so well and then relegated the first thing all man just getting relegated but you know I mean like it allowed those teams to like play in the sort of level that they were so instead of getting thrashed and losing every game they could actually have like some sort of competitive games but yeah So us getting relegated didn't help.

16:08Yeah, I'm just not sure. I think that the games are pointless. You just know you're going to win the game, one, two, three, four, whatever. You won, really. But yeah, I've had this team playing in Spain or Holland or Germany, or putting the 21s in, but then let them go and play. It's tough, isn't it? Because it feels like international football is in a bit of a weird place at the moment because the football calendar is so congested. We say that the games in June come at the end of a long season. We say the games in September come too early in the season for players. It just feels like Thomas Tuchel doesn't have much time with them.

16:45And when he does have time with them, it always feels like the wrong time. Do you know what I mean, Wayne? Yeah, no, I don't think, I think for Thomas Tuchel and his coaching staff, I think it's actually about the time they have around the hotel and then these games, these were relevant. it's not going to make any difference to what he does. But I think he'll be using this time to get to know the players, the personalities, the characters. So I think that's what he'll be looking at. So would you say international football is more about that rather than the tactics that you play? Well, I think if we're all honest, England, we actually didn't in 2008, but you're going to qualify.

17:26And then obviously when you get to the tournament, you've got to get your best and a little bit of luck. but I think does anyone have any doubt that England are going to qualify for the World Cup so for Thomas Tuchel that's not an issue I think it's getting to know the players the personality is how which players like even like if you have a group of three or four players who are friendly how can they have an impact on the rest of the group so I think that'll be all what Thomas Tuchel is looking for now to try and understand the day-to-day life we're having in the game pop quiz what's in your kids lunchbox at whole foods market they've already done the studying over 300 food ingredients are banned from their shelves no hydronated fats in the peanut butter and no high fructose corn syrup in the cookies and for sandwiches there are no synthetic nitrates or nitrites in any of their deli meat so you can pack lunch boxes with peace of mind get back to school ready at Whole Foods Market.

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18:48I also think that being an international manager, although it might seem like an easy job because you don't have to be in every day and you only have to do camps every so often. I think it looks a really tricky job because you have these kind of games that don't really replicate what you're going to have in tournaments. And then every two years, you're just meant to go out and be able to set a team up to win the biggest prize in football. It's a pretty tough... Wayne, you've managed. I think it looks pretty, pretty tough. Would you want to do it? No, I wouldn't. Listen, to be England manager, you're getting the best...

19:20like some top, top players. So you're in a privileged position and you've got a lot of things going for you in terms of the players will know how to play whatever position you put them in. But yeah, it's tough. It's World Cups, European Championships. You look at the climate, you look at what players are fit and what players are in form. It's a very difficult, I imagine it's a very difficult job to do. How do you get that connection with? I don't think I had, Louis Hodgson was probably the only manager who, on a personal level, I had any sort of connection outside of when we met him. So they weren't communicating with you regularly throughout the rest of the season?

20:01No, you wouldn't. I don't think they spoke to Sven, Pello, Steve McLaren, short time. Not even like a text, only for nothing. No, and you get a message off Michelle to tell you in the squad, and that was it really. so yeah Rui was the only one really who had any sort of relationship outside of being in camp was that quite disappointing or did you prefer it that way no you focused on you focused on your club and you're doing everything you can for your club so England takes a backseat when you're playing for your club and then vice versa when you're playing for England your club takes the backseat for that like 8-10 days whatever it is so but yeah no never really had any sort of connection with any of them other than Roy yeah What was your relationship like with Roy and why was that a bit different?

20:54I loved Roy some of the conversations people used to have were hilarious he obviously is a very clever man and a very good manager and we used to get off the team bus and meet travel abroad and the team would get on the bus and as captain me and Roy would go to the press conference in the car and I'd get it for like an hour non-stop in English and French and I'm just like please drink man you're tired you're just flowing to whatever country you are but learnt a lot from him very very good man good manager and I think he doesn't get the spread of it if you take England away from him for all the other jobs he's done and obviously over in France and Sweden and obviously in England so learnt a lot from him and obviously enjoyed playing under him.

21:47Wasn't he at Milan as well at one point, right? Into Milan. He's been everywhere. But he loved it whenever we played anywhere. He was a press conference and if he ever got asked a question in French, you're just seeing him like, there we go. Chest puffed out, here we go. And then he goes into his French, obviously he speaks the language but he was delighted anytime he got that question. Can you remember any particular conversation? You said there that you learned a lot from him. Is there anything in particular or any moment that you can remember with him that was particularly special? Yeah, we were talking about Arsene Rengel getting a statue in Arsene.

22:25I didn't actually know the background in Malmo, was it? Malmo, yeah. Where he was in Sweden. So I didn't actually know the background of it. He just went on some mad rant about why he should have a statue in Malmo. and I'm like engaging and he's like ask me if I've got one here I should have one here and he's gone and there was a little one at the time where we were just about to go into the press conference and the press officer said to us just in case we get asked a question on the FIFA rankings, Wales, one above England at that time and to me to be honest and Rui was fine and just before we went in he just snapped Rui is the biggest he's a snapper he goes and he just snapped from nowhere like the press officer the poor press officer nothing to do with him he was like I'm just making sure where the world he's got to ask the question he just went and so yeah very good conversations he's a good man I really got a lot of respect for Rui and I hope obviously recently he went too well so I hope his health is isn't a good place.

23:41Yeah, he's done a little bit of media recently. He's been on a couple of other shows and he sounds like he's back in good spirits. But Kay, he is one of those people, isn't he, that I think Wayne hit the nail on the head there. As football fans, maybe as fans in general, we don't give him the credit that he deserves. Because if you put his name into Google, if you look at all of the clubs, all of the languages, how long he's been in football, like with Crystal Palace, he just couldn't let it go, could he? He was virtually, literally his health has stopped him in the end. But he loves football and maybe does deserve a bit more recognition.

24:12No, 100%. I mean, it's like you don't get an often like a lot of English managers that have got that kind of CV abroad and done what he's done as well. The only one that other name sticks out is Sir Bobby and, you know, going abroad to Barcelona and doing what he did as well. And I think the other point is we should be like celebrating England managers that have done that as well. there's not a lot of England managers that we see unfortunately that get the top jobs anymore so I think we should celebrate those people rather than anything else that's where I was talking about Sam Allais before when Sam got the England job it was one game I think it was 100 % win record though honestly I was so impressed with what he was doing and how he played for the game and everything he'd done the preparation was honestly was miles ahead of what at England with any other manager.

25:09So obviously it didn't last long and then I worked with him at Everton and his attention to detail is incredible and then people like stereotype him because, you know, he's, I don't know, his name or whatever that is, but he's such a clever manager and I don't think he gets the credit he deserves for them. But they say that about his Bolton team, like apparently his Bolton team, they use a lot of like data and stats and stuff. That's what I said before, he was like one of the pioneers his Bolton team were one of the first ones to do it weren't they really like in terms of the real sports science and all of the knowledge that he had yeah he was and you know sometimes if because maybe it's a long throwing or you're putting a ball in a box if you're putting a ball in a box you've got a better chance of scoring I think that was a lot of his data was simple but very effective and I was really impressed with him I thought when I worked with him I didn't know what to expect actually when he come into Everton obviously I had the one game with England and then when he come to Everton I didn't know what to expect but I was really impressed with him I thought you know he doesn't get the credit he deserves Do you know I think one of the issues with managers like Big Sam's they're not managing any of the big clubs they're being quite pragmatic and scientific in their approach with the smaller clubs and they're thinking well I need to win games and I need to get points on the board so they're trying to work with what they have and they're doing it but then like I think they get wrongly stereotyped into people thinking that's the only football that they could play.

26:38Whereas maybe if somebody like a Big Sam was given a top job, he'd be able to show that he's got other attributes that he can get a team to play like. It all depends on the players. I think we go into games and Alex Ferguson would say you 11 are better than them, come in the game. And that's it. On corners, that's your man. If he scores, it's on you. And that's it, simple. and then work with other managers where it's so like so complicated then actually the better the player the better the team the simpler it is and there's no need to over complicate it that's why Alex Ferguson was very good because it was easy it was simple and it was only the real big or tough games where he'd probably come into his own but a lot of the time we didn't work on set pieces we didn't work on tactics it was like just come beat them simple and that's it yeah yeah I guess it also goes back to what I was going to say before Kay when you were going on about managers it's reminded me of my point you made about Ruben Amrim and his hair you were like because he's got good hair because he looks good he's been afforded a bit more time maybe maybe it works against the likes of Big Sam yeah I mean I think that is and I think I think sometimes when the when they've just got an English name I think we sort of disregard them I think if if Sam was called like Samuel Aladici we'd probably have a lot more respect for him in that in that sense Wayne in terms of in terms of managers I know Sir Alex is like the best you've worked under who was the next best well the best I've worked under was Louis van Gaal really yeah um I think you know and that might sound strange Alex Ferguson knew exactly what he was doing and was a genius at what he did but in terms of tactically Louis van Gaal was street ahead of anyone I've ever worked Even Sir Alex or you mean behind Sir Alex No I'm talking tactically Oh right okay Louis van Gaal was street ahead Alex Ferguson was the best all round but tactically Louis van Gaal was incredible and I used to just watch and take everything in and watch how he prepared the team how he set the team up defensively how he the only one thing was you lost that little bit of freedom when you're attacking and that was the the last thing which at this time I was I was on my journey of thinking right I want to go into coaching so I always remember looking at it thinking right I want to do this but just give that little the last the foul tear gives it a little bit more freedom but Van Gaal was incredible his attention to see Taylor his his training sessions were quite boring at times but you know every player knew exactly what we were doing so he was best by quite a long way losing that freedom annoying because I know we're talking about like Grealish for example yeah mate I've seen players absolutely like just dissolve and just like I don't want to be here I can't do it like for the sentiment for your player they literally couldn't move then we see Di Maria come in Falcao lovely person but he had a bad knee injury and was never right when he came in Dean Maria so you had to stay in your lane in your channel and you just lost that bit of freedom so yeah it was it was tough as an attacking player but I think defensively how we set up it was so good Kay, did that surprise you Wayne Sainz-Louis Van Gaal as a Man United fan did it surprise you?

30:19A little bit but in some respect I can sort of understand it because Sir Alex wasn't taking a lot of the training though was he Wayne when you were playing no he earned that right to organize like make sure everything is right which probably you're not seeing so much today in terms of around the training ground Alex Fakes had everything right and his coaches would take the session there was times where we were training the helicopter comes and we stopped training he'd come out on the suit and he'd be off to like Cheltenham

31:00you're not right don't you so who were you training with at that point was it like Rene Mullenstein yeah Rene McPheelan Carlos Queros whoever we had a few a few different ones yeah but he didn't have to be there he had gigs he had calls he had cars we all pushed each other and so he knew he didn't have to be there. Sure. Was there any managers that would ever take feedback on board from players? Yeah, Van Gaal was one, big on that. He wanted feedback, whether he agrees or disagrees, he really did want feedback. Remember, we went to America and I think he was tired to decide he should be captain.

31:45So he said to the whole team, I'm going to speak to every player for the next like two days and whatever so I want to start with Wayne he'd come and literally sat on my knee and he was like right up to my face and I went I mean you okay I was like him what school did you go to I was like yeah what religion I am I was like can you take a step back like but yeah he was and then the second player he's done was Antonio Valencia which I knew was going to be very difficult for both and then after that he scrapped all off but yeah he wasn't captain Why did you know it was going to be difficult with Valencia?

32:28He's very quiet Oh okay Very quiet and Van Gaal can be very intimidating very intimidating so I knew that was going to be difficult What was he like as a person? You said that he can be intimidating but you obviously had quite a He was funny it was the first time he met Colleen we had a lunch and all the players, the players, wives, girlfriends all the staff were there and then he called up to Colleen, the first ever time he met her, he went to him your children, they look very much like the father and he went he has very strong sperm

33:10what do you say to that? that was the first time he met her