UNTOLD: Walcott & Defoe’s 2006 World Cup Fallout

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0:31Snapdragon, that's how. Theo got called up. How old were you? 17? 17 just, yeah. He was 17 and probably shouldn't have got called up that time. Oh, wow, that's hard. I'm going to show you. The ball's gone over the line and Nugent has come from nowhere. Kits it in. I was fuming. I actually went up to their goalkeeper and said, did he go over the line? And he was like, oh. He was like... So very unlucky, obviously, to lose on penalties. And the lad's done brilliant, obviously, when I got sent off. And then obviously after the tournament, I was bracing myself for a lot of stick. Obviously, we've seen what happened with Bex.

1:06What was that period like for you after 2006?

1:13OK, so we are all in the middle of World Cup fever at the moment, but we're actually recording this episode of the Wayne Rooney Show a little bit early because it is Soccer Aid. So we're at the Soccer Aid Hotel and we're with not one, as we usually are, but three former England internationals and two teammates. Wayne played with and I'm sure 2006 might come up pretty early on. Yeah, no, obviously he'll the wizard Walcott. The wizard, the wizard. And then Jermaine Defoe. He's the wizard, what's he? Just JD, that's it. That's all you need, isn't it? JD will shoot at every minute. Yeah, exactly. Two really good teammates to play with and be around.

1:54And that's why in 2006, I think it was, for me anyway, personally, it was really difficult in what happened because Theo got called up how old were you 17 17 just 17 and probably shouldn't have got called up that time oh wow that's hurt that's so good he's right I've said this it's fine you said it on my phone I heard you say it I think everyone was shocked really and then Jermaine got called up basically on standby if I was fit or not and the hard thing for me was I was back and forward from England and Germany and I went back and they told me I was fit and literally I went in the hotel and Jermaine was walking out and that was hard for me because I knew how much football means to me, how much he wanted to be at that World Cup and then to see him leave and then I went in and I shouldn't have went and that was tough for me that upset me I imagine for you Jermaine that World Cup must have because you actually went out there didn't you?

3:01Yeah that was probably the hardest part you were obviously in the hotel Yeah I think that was probably the hardest part actually being there because obviously when I got the news and listen it weren't just me I remember that season I remember like Darren Bent I think scored 24 goals like league goals so he probably deserved to have gone as well but the fact that I travelled with the squad and the worst thing about it I felt really sharp and fit probably the sharpest I felt all season because I remember the back end of that season I didn't score as many goals as I did the first part of the season but even so I still felt like I should have gone because in major tournaments the further you progress I always felt like I could come on and do something if I didn't start but to be there and to leave the hotel was really tough So were you literally waiting for the news of whether Wayne was fit?

3:47Yeah and even for Waza to be in that position where you see one of your teammates going home but even for me you never wish any injury on a player because I know obviously how important it was for the team. So you want him to be fit, but at the same time, you want to be there. Of course, for Theo, you know, a young lad, for him and his family, for him and his family, you know, to go to a World Cup at 17. I mean, R9, Ronaldo, he got a World Cup medal when he was 16. So to go to a World Cup when you're 17 is, of course, special. But, you know, we all want to be on a plane and that. But it was tough for me.

4:17That summer was hard. And in amongst all this, you're getting your first ever call-up. Age 17, life must have changed overnight. It did, not just for me, like JD was saying there, my family, my partner Mel as well, getting followed by paparazzi, of course, these days, the social media side of things. But that was scary. You know, having people follow you when you're just a team, you know, around the country, that's not okay, right? And so I had to deal with this and still in my own mind, I'm like developing myself at 16, 17 from the big move to Arsenal, knowing that I didn't deserve to go there.

4:49Did you feel that? Yeah, I did feel that. I did feel that because I remember when I got announced for the World Cup squad, I was like turn the tv off don't need it on like it's great i know i'm going well that's the thing because i understood like these guys like you know obviously jd and wayne playing the primary you know every week and i hadn't even played yet and then darren bent as well of course who's incredible that year so then to go away as a player it's not even actually featured it's hard to take and then there's that so it's a cut you feel would you feel better if you actually played if i played yeah um i i still feel i shouldn't have gone there anyway in that sense but it kind of helped me with the the late years should we just say but I kind of treated it like a I thought I'll get my respect from actually on the pitch because everyone was great with me and you know I remember seeing you out there it was all fine because I felt like that's what I knew best I couldn't relate to the guys as much because they're a bit older when I could I remember seeing him quite a lot actually winning Paul against JT I remember and he's smashing Paul cues and everything so I remember that very we've heard about our story yeah that's not the first time we've had stories like that.

5:50Yeah, so very clearly. But it was a scary moment for me and my family. Did the gaffer talk to you, telling you why he's picked you? No, there was no, no, but there was always signs that I was potentially going because Arsene was seeing Sven at training a bit and said, oh, he's just seeing how you like training, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I didn't think much of it. That's generally how it went. And then suddenly my name was just called into a squad like everyone else. I just, like a fan, watching the squad. So you didn't get caught? I was like that. No, mine was pretty late. Wow. So I saw it like everyone else and didn't really feel like it, I didn't think it was real.

6:23And then I turned it off, played World Cup Monopoly after that. So I did it. I'm an old man and I lost as well. There we go. Lost, but you got in the World Cup score. Yeah, lost. But that's interesting. So even when you were there, he never told you like, this is why I brought you here. This is... No, but like, I always feel like it's that unknown, right? And, you know, thanks to Wayne getting sent off, you know, I might have come on now. Sorry Wayne. No, but it was, I mean, Aaron Lennon came on as well and he was unknown. He was electric. Honestly, he's terrified people coming off the bench. Remember, even training, you know, seeing him up in person and these guys.

6:56But I felt I was part of the crew because they looked after me, everyone said I didn't feel away from the squad, which was a nice thing for me. It's intimidating because I've been in the squad at 17 and him, but I've been in quite a few squads before. That's why going into the tournament, you know, I knew the players, I knew what to expect from that point of view. So to go, he faced squad in a World Cup and then be around everyone for what's it five, six weeks whatever it was I remember thinking like is he okay and you were obviously really quiet at the time as well and you're thinking that's mad to be there for that amount of time and not really know any of the players really well I had a camcorder the ultimate camcorder camcorder I was there just filming everything and i even filmed the paparazzi guys see how they liked it but what was interesting i started to film myself like every day like after training so you were vlogging before vlogging a little bit like that and which was mad because i've watched it back as well and i've seen things and no one else seen only me and we're talking about mental health in the game as well in this moment you know world in general and you can slowly start seeing this little you know this boy which i was dream not happening not gonna play excitement to real you know realization that you playing and that was hard watching that back as an older man now that's scary.

8:19Was you more confused though like why am I here sort of thing? Because what I knew was football I knew football. But were people not talking to you when you were there in camp or were you just left to not talking to you but like coaches and stuff? No no you know Stephen Clown was great he was great he looked after you know and this particular guy who didn't play you have to train well but like Ashley Cole was great because I knew him and Sol Campbell I knew them at Arsenal so they really did look after massively. I think we play some kind of video games constantly. I think that's what you do at that kind of age.

8:47But, and then Wayne was only a couple of years older than me as well. So I kind of visually watched, you know, how Wayne was, and I felt, that's not me. But yeah, no, I generally, I did feel part of the team, even though I was on a, on the distance, on the, you know, on the sidestep, should we just call it. Did you, did you have any resentment towards him? Never. No chance. What about him? No, never. Cause, cause, cause watching it, I'm sitting there thinking he needs to play. Let's put him on because that's the thing in football like as teammates you become a family it's different with England because like it's not like at your club you're together from I don't know pre-season to like May but at the same time you want the players to do well so like I just mentioned before the fact that it was 17 like for him and his family like it's special if that was me I would have loved it do you know what I mean so I did love it I did love it did you feel like the separation in the team because I'd never felt that no I've always explained that before The whole time I was in the squad, I never felt any clicks and stuff.

9:45Where does that come from then? It must have been before I was in the squad anyway, because I didn't feel that. And actually the opposite. I think, you know, I go around people's rooms. I remember sitting in with Jermaine watching me wedding DVDs. It was you that watched the wedding DVD together, wasn't it? Watching that, then I'd be in with Ash Cole playing computer games. So it was actually the opposite when I was in the squad. You get different characters, though. You get some of those that can just mix with anyone, like we did. But then you get some of the boys that would just sit in their rooms.

10:14But in terms of cliques and stuff, I don't know, for some reason, it's just people always talk about where there was these cliques. I think naturally, you're going to get the Man United boys or the Liverpool boys that are closer. I spent a lot of time with Ledley and the Spurs boys, Dorse, Aaron. But that's natural. But in terms of cliques, we're always together. Why do you think in 2006, I know, Wayne, it's tough for you to look back on and you've talked about it a lot that it was a really difficult tournament for you. You probably shouldn't have gone. Why do you think for the whole team though it perhaps didn't work that year?

10:46It's the eternal England question, isn't it really? I thought we actually done okay and the quarterfinal was the better team against Portugal. So very unlucky obviously to lose on penalties and the lads done brilliant obviously when I got sent off. So it's just that bit of luck. You need to go to the next step. So I thought we were okay. in the tournament and then obviously after the tournament I was bracing myself for a lot of stick obviously we've seen what happened with Bex in in 98 and so I was bracing myself for that but yeah I thought in general we've done okay and you know we lost on penalties.

11:25What was that period like for you after 2006? I was okay because I think I accepted getting sent off very quickly. And then straight after the game, I spoke to Cristiano and really my focus went to Man United. And that was in then. Obviously, there was a lot of noise about me and Cristiano falling out and that which was completely untrue. And then from there, we went back to Man United and won the league. So, my whole focus was on United then. And of course for England the kind of it was just the constant question mark isn't it and it's still the question we're answering today we have all of these players all of this talent and it hasn't quite come together but obviously then in 2010 so you didn't go to 2010 did you Theo?

12:10I didn't I played heavy qualifier He should have gone He should have gone Yeah that's the crazy thing like you go to that one but 2010 my opinion should have gone Really? Should have been done playing Yeah Do you think there was an element of we took him in 06? He's had his holiday Yeah but like And they probably didn't pick you based off of that? It was a different manager, wasn't it? It was different. So we had Capello, didn't we? So I actually remember me missing a meeting. And you asked, I'm kind of the person who, and you'd know me. I want to be all the time. I nearly missed one. Did you miss one?

12:37Yeah, I felt like a little kid. I was scared. Exactly. So he terrified me. And I went to go see JT and I said, I need to go see the manager. I missed the meeting. He's like, no, I wouldn't bother. I was like, what do you mean? I was like, no, I need to go see him. So I went to go see him. He opens the door, he slams it in my face.

12:54the connection with the players and the managers is completely different they can treat you like people as well and I think you know I hold up to my my mistake and that was one meeting I missed don't miss meetings people back home don't miss meetings but maybe that cost me who knows did you at the time did you think that did you think oh you know what I'm not going to the World Cup no I didn't you didn't think that at the time no because I played every qualifier pretty much and then scored a hat-trick as well yeah against Croatia yeah so I'll begin did you ever get an explanation no I remember me I saw Fabio at Hiltik in the stadium and he was managing the other team and yeah it was a strong handshake shall we say really but actually when England got knocked out and I'm like a fan when England are in I'm like a fan so everyone and they got knocked out I saw him actually at a restaurant it was actually the day he got sacked actually it just didn't work did it didn't work it didn't work and I've spoken about this before when Italy scored the goal during the World Cup and I've seen a few of the staff really yeah like fist pumping and stuff why didn't it work I just think the way the Italians normally prepare for training for games was so different to what we'd done like the day after game we were doing like mad runs runs yeah we weren't used to it I remember I think it was Matthew Upson he told to lose body fat and Glenn Johnson right before the World Cup and and then you got this nutritionist in who I got a text message at 3.30 on a Saturday halfway through a game asking the nutritionist was asking me to call him Just kind of when at international level when you're trying to change your diet or change something it's very difficult because obviously what you're doing at your club all season there has to be a connection, relationship with the club to do that and then Matthew Upsen I think it was TK before the World Cup He was in good nick Matthew Upsen he was one of the better ones So the whole structure and culture of what he was trying to do just didn't work Because when he first came in we were doing double sessions and JT spoke to the player and said how do you feel I was retired midway through the season double sessions that's like a pre-season thing and then JT pulled him and at the time I remember thinking good luck and pulled him and said to him the boys is a little bit tired, but I don't think it changed.

15:24I don't think it changed. I'm talking about the meeting. I remember I was late for a meeting. I just got the times wrong. So I was just in my room, just sitting on the bed and Michelle called me. She's like, where are you? I said, I'm in my room. She goes, you're late for the meeting. Honestly, it was a, I remember picking my t-shirt up and running down the corridor, no top on. Getting dressed as you ran. As I've got, I don't know, it was a quick meeting before, before dinner. As I got down, the lads were coming out. Oh my, that must have been the worst feeling. At the Grove. so I remember thinking I'm going to have to go in and apologise because the staff were in there and you know the rest of them stood at the back didn't they and the manager's there and I just said sorry boss he said sorry he said it's disrespectful are you late for your family when you have dinner and I just stood there he said go and have dinner at least you got some words from him but then he paid me so it was like yeah what was the feeling like after 2010 then because again it's like it's what I've said before it's the age old thing and we've got these players, but you guys must have felt within, you said it didn't work.

16:24You knew it just didn't work for him. It started slow, didn't we? I think you have to start well. For me, I just thought the whole tournament weren't great. Personally, I played terrible. And then that's when I had a go with the England fans for booing us. When we go on the pitch, we're trying, we're giving everything to try and win the game. So it does hurt. as a player, it hurts when your fans are in after like 10 minutes of the game. So I reacted to that, but I just think there was a frustration with the whole tournament. We went to Austria twice, we went to Austria for like 10 days, come back for three days, then went back for another 10 days and we're on oxygen masks every night while we were there.

17:10And the whole thing just didn't feel right. And I think that showed in the performances. we travelled like we got there 10 days before the first game and obviously for me like because I've missed obviously the previous workouts so when I got called up to this one you can imagine like the excitement and getting there 10 days before the first game and sort of like just around the hotel you're watching the other game sort of like you've got a little bit of anxiety because you'd rather go and then train and then play but I think that period of time to sort of like train and just be there and just yeah just waiting to play the game and obviously there's boredom as well isn't there the America game and obviously to Algeria.

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18:23what was the media pressure like during kind of this period because there's always media pressure you always say it Wayne there's always pressure it comes with football it comes with England but it feels like back then I know we've got social media now but with the paparazzi and everything you briefly touched upon it there was such a clamour back then the whole golden generation thing I've heard Rio say recently what where the heck did that come from like that that phrase but it felt like there was so much almost suffocating pressure on you guys it was and because being you know teammates and I wasn't there for this one I I kind of like Wayne said when he you know happened 06 he focused on himself focused on myself and I had probably the season after that but the guys then have to come back from a disappointment which is like when you always didn't go out to not perform and it just wasn't clicking because of those those connections weren't there but the pressure is always there but it's you put the pressure on yourself that's all it comes to down to us really uh and then it's you know if you've got a full squad who've put pressure on themselves you ain't going to perform you can't enjoy it i think the enjoyment side of it i always say to the young kids my boys enjoy it if you don't enjoy it you're not gonna anything you do it could be sport or your work you aren't going to put your everything into it so and maybe the enjoyment element went that's what it sounds like when you talk about 2010 but it doesn't sound like that was fun at all no it wasn't then back to what Theo was saying I think when you're enjoying what you're doing you're naturally going to speak to players I remember when you were going to a really good form for Arsenal and for England so I'd go to Theo and I'd talk to him and say what's your strength and be like my pace running behind so I'd be like well if I come off if you see me turn just run I'll give you the ball and then I'd speak to Jermaine.

20:07Brilliant. Every time I get the ball, look for them that runs out and find you. Those relationships. And then you build relationships. I'd always say over hit it as well. I'll make you a bad boy. Then what you're doing without even knowing it is you're around the hotel and you're actually communicating, you're helping each other. You're then forming a partnership or you're forming something which helps on the pitch where if you don't enjoy it, then you don't even have them conversations and you're telling, you're just like, oh, you can't. But that's what, you were like that. That's special to be like that because you have to be able to connect with people, whether you're a coach or a player because when you're a player, he come into the squad young and then because naturally he's good with people, like people are going to gravitate to him, they're going to like him and all of a sudden you become a senior player then you've got to do the same thing.

20:58Well, different, but you've got to sort of like look after the younger players. But not everyone's like that. Not all senior players are like that. the best ones are because you're going to need that. Like 17 years old, traveling to a World Cup, you're going to need like senior players. Even after training, even if someone says, oh, you've done well today. Like you could play a thousand games. When someone says that to you, oh, you've done well today. Who were the people in the squad that did that for you? When I got into the squad, the boys were good. Bex was good, to be honest, because he's good with people.

21:23Do you know what I mean? He's always smiling and stuff like that. But even like with Wayne, sat in his room at World Cup watching the deep. When I say that to people, they think I'm joking. But can you just, I just really want to clear up this DVD thing how does that come up how do you go we could play this game we could play that oh let's watch your wedding I think I wanted to show me singing you singing? and then we ended up every story comes back to you singing doesn't it? what did you sing? I sang Will Best Life I sang yeah yeah yeah I swear it all over again you could do a whole album at the time you sang you know what's funny kids are watching this thinking DVD what are they talking about Was his singing any good?

22:00Yeah, decent. What was the wedding like, actually? He probably can't remember anyway. People would pay a lot of money to watch that TV. Yeah, it was good. Everyone would say, what? You weren't watching the Game of Thrones? I'd say, no, I watched his wedding. But you do that. You're there for a long time. And like you said, listen, he played for a different club. So when you get to go with England, it's nice. And also as well, it's my strike partner. So you get those sort of relationships. Yeah, what was that relationship like with the two of you? Do you know what I said? I scored a hat-trick at Wembley against Bulgaria.

22:28and I always say this story I remember coming off the pitch and apart from the goals didn't feel like I'd done anything like I didn't take more than two touches no but what I mean is I didn't take more than two touches and I said to people like on that day he was unbelievable because he said to me like the same thing he said to Theo he said if I turn just run and a lot of times probably hard to explain it a lot of times where you get midfielders or a number 10 or whatever it is you'd make a run and they'll pass the ball to you then you go and do your stuff and go and finish but he used to make my mind up for me so if I turn so he'll pull it where I need to be if that makes sense then I'll just go and finish I don't know if you see the goals but I didn't feel like I'd done it in France made my runs and it was unbelievable it's a pretty big thing to do though make a run and finish every time you're through I'll make a run as well I need to be oh he's shooting I'll shoot I always say sorry though the best moment with Jermaine was I can't remember who was against but I think David Nugent robbed the goal off him.

23:29The best moment. I have never seen I've never seen him snap so much. It was hilarious. It was against was it Andorra or something? Andorra away from home. Again I made the run shot honestly it was like slow motion the ball's gone over the line and Nugent's just come from nowhere kicks it in like I would I would never do that. Was that his only goal for England? Yeah I was I was fuming I was fuming I actually went up to their goalkeeper and said did he go over the line. And he was like, ah. It was like, honestly, as the game went on, I said to him, excuse me, boss, like, did he go over the line?

24:04He said, yeah, yeah, yeah. I was fuming. I think that says a lot about strikers and you kind of... I got in the coach, I calmed down a little bit before I do know what it's good for him his first goal. And then Ian Wright phoned me. You know what he's like? He's phoned me. Going mad on the phone. I thought, and all of a sudden, I'm fuming again. Like, honestly, it was just like, mad. Theo, we kind of glossed over it. obviously you didn't go to 2010, but before that you had like your real, almost announcement to the world, it felt like, with your hat trick against Croatia. Yes. I mean, played a major part in that day for me as well.

24:37Like he does, like everyone makes me look good. Setting all your teammates off. These for me are so easy to play with. Yeah, exactly. If I have people running, I know how to turn and pass the ball. So it's easy for me to play with. And that's what I've said before. It's just second nature, isn't it? Like every time you got the bot, just run. Like it's fine. I know what I'm doing. And it's like JD was saying, it's always going to be in the right space. I wouldn't have to break my stride, which is important. That was really important for me, but that game itself was mad. And then come in replacing, David Beckham, replacing me after the hat trick.

25:07And it was just a mad moment because I was playing the whole second half with, you know, a couple of studs missing as well. I got all the guys to sign the ball and the message. I look back on it now and I just think, wow, like you'd well done. Did great. It was so weird. My old man was in the stands and the away stands. And so he got out there alive, fine, quite happily. But for me, it was just another football match. It just was. It was just the aftermath, which I can't control. It's then there's more and more that pressure, but it's what everyone else says. You have to be kind of level-minded.

25:36You know before that point, did you always think that I have to do something to justify what happened before? So when I didn't... No, not really, because... Because you was going to go to Arsenal, you was doing your stuff for Arsenal. Yeah, it was more after I didn't go to 2010, I had that actually, the same actually you were saying about, My main focus is Arsenal then because I need to focus on my strengths and I want to get back into the team. And I managed to do really well and I felt like I had a chance to go to 2014 but did my knee. But yeah, that hat-trick was hopefully Max Downwind and beat it at some point.

26:08I was going to say, yeah, it does feel like that way, doesn't it? It does. Bringing it on to the here and now then in terms of England's chances at this World Cup, I don't want to be that media person that again says, we've got a great squad, we could win it. but the noise is louder than ever with England isn't it Theo how do you rate Thomas Tuchel and England's chances this summer I'm disappointed he didn't pick my team actually my team is very different so let's not start that again I'm joking of course I'm joking no I uh it was great because I was there on the day when he announced the team and managed to talk to him afterwards and he's just he gets he's very intelligent man I feel like he has that connection with the person which helps the player I don't talk about the players he talks about the people I think that's so important his staff and his messages he gets out there it's just so positive the difference is if he's a club manager going into his first tournament so he's going to be questioning in that sense but I like the fact he's just built a team everyone's team's different like I would like to have a left-footed number 10 in there personally I like number 10s are so key for and there's so many to pick for Morgan was great but obviously Cole Palmer and Phil Foden being left-footed just a bit different to the number 10s we have so in that space I'd always be worried about defensively.

27:22I don't know how you see it, Wayne, defensively. I think you need to be really sort of going into tournaments. That's the one thing I'd struggle with. John Stone, who's had his injuries. Rich James, obviously, had his injuries. So I think there's a few in there who've been injured. So I think it is a concern. I would have talked to Harry Maguire over Dumblin. There's not many ex-pros that have said they wouldn't. Everyone seems to be injured. Yeah, but I think he's obviously thought about what squad he's going to pick and why he wants this squad and there'll be reasons why he hasn't taken Cole Palmer or Foden or Maguire and reasons why he's took some other players and I trust him I think he's a top manager he knows what's at stake and he's picked a squad who he thinks can compete to win the World Cup and I think yeah it's controversial I would have made a couple of different decisions than he has but that's why he's there to make these decisions and when we have taken place to the World Cup on reputation I think everyone's like oh he's just gone because of his name and now we've got a manager who's not doing that and it's like oh why isn't he so him or whatever it's always the case yeah so you can't win so I think we just have to back him and yeah I think we'll do well keep on his trust there he's just said the reasons that he gave as well he's a good communicator I felt like he did convince convince everybody as well once he came out and gave his reasoning.

28:51That's what I, whenever I've met him, obviously, he's not picking me to play, but whenever I've met him, you believe him? Like there's conviction in the way he speaks. And I imagine as players, that's so important because you need to buy into what he's saying. A hundred percent. Of course, I can imagine everyone was shocked because if you look at the last 10 years and you think about the best players that we've produced, in terms of that quality, I know you said about left foot and that, but in terms of that quality, you know, you look at in this country, the best player, the best version of the players, like the first ones that you think Phil Foden Kyle Palmer Imagine if someone had said in 2024 Do you know what I mean?

29:24Yeah of course but the manager must know what he's doing you look at cup competitions like he knows how to get over the line so you have to trust him you spoke about the connection that he's got with the players and we see what happens you know it's exciting but of course the Harry Maguire one are shocked at that of course and also as well I think you know when you look at the two names I've just mentioned you know Chelsea and Manchester City then obviously Harry Maguire Man United I think, you know, these players, it's a different demand when you play for these big clubs. Do you know what I mean?