Villa v Newcastle DRAMA! Are Refs REALLY Hiding Behind VAR?

15:23Kelly:I think it affects some more than others. As I said, I tried not to carry it around with me, so I would not want to know at halftime. I'd rather go out to the second half and just referee each decision as it comes. And I would sometimes say this to players on the field, like, I just move on to the next decision. That's, of course, the noble aim. Sometimes it isn't always possible, and sometimes you do carry it. But the thing about VAR is it did remove the worst, the most egregious errors, the ones that really are wrong, because if the VAR is doing its job, and of course it normally does. I mean, let's be fair, it does get most things right.

16:04Kelly:Wayne says there's been a few that he hasn't liked this season there's been certainly a couple that have been plain wrong but most of the others he and I could look at pictures and go well I think it is and he might think it isn't and all that we'd be discussing it and probably never agree so the psychology is difficult but I think it's easier for the referees with VR but it's still a challenge of course

16:28Graham Scott:I suppose that's the same as a player really when a player makes a big mistake and the one thing as teammates you're doing is trying to encourage them to forget about it but obviously I know I've made the mistakes as well it is difficult sometimes to put that to the back of your mind so I suppose it's very similar to that

16:44Kelly:it is but then if you miss a sitter in the first half and score a hat-trick in the second they'll probably still make you man of the match whereas for us if we make a howler in the first half

16:53Graham Scott:the referee's never going to be man of the match

16:56Kelly:quite rightly I don't want the champagne or whatever they give out I wouldn't drink it it is a different it is a fair analogy though nonetheless we focus on the part of the internet that most people don't know about it's called the dark web

17:14Wayne Rooney:undercover in the furthest corners of the dark web US special agents are on a mission to locate and rescue children from abuse

17:23Kae:move in now

17:24Wayne Rooney:from the BBC World Service World of Secrets The Darkest Web follows their shocking investigations. Listen on bbc.com or wherever you get your BBC podcasts.

17:46Wayne Rooney:Graham, I was going to ask as well, do you think if you've been on a run of doing certain games where VAR is present and then dropping down, for example, into the championship where it isn't, it's a bit harder because I think, I mean, it's two different skills, isn't it? Refereeing with and without VAR. Do you think it's right that referees should have to drop down and go to the championship or not? Well, there's not much

18:13Kelly:choice and also, of course, it works the other way. So quite recently, we've had three referees doing games in the Premier League who haven't been used to refereeing in the Premier League. So they've got to change all their processes too. So they've got to delay the whistle, for example. so you've got a situation where the ball's played forward the assistant saying i'm waiting on i'm delaying my flag number nine was offside but i'm going to delay because it's tight and we have to see the tack out eventually the ball goes in the goal then they've got to then they've got to go through that process and equally you can have a situation at a corner where you think well that's a foul that's a defensive free kick all your training up to the championship is give it early give it quickly stop the game because then the ball goes in the goal it's like well the goalkeeper didn't try and save it anyway so you know whereas in the Premier League you've got to wait and that's quite a difficult transition to make but I don't see any alternative than referees flipping between the two because you can't just have 10 refs who do all 10 games every week you're always going to have to rotate and if you go a couple of weeks without a game in the Premier League you need a game in the Championship to keep yourself match fit and sharp and making decisions and doing the job so it's always going to be part of the game and I don't think we should have VR in the championship I think championship is great competition as it is leave it alone um and see

19:30Graham Scott:the see for me that's for me that's very interesting because the premiership is a great competition so why not leave the premier league on so so I think that's that's a debate for the game yeah no exactly and championship is a great competition and obviously when we used to get referees dropping and down from the Premier League, I didn't like it at all because I did feel they reffed the game a little bit different and they did wait a bit longer or they didn't make a decision because they might have that backup of VAR. So where some managers might have liked it, I didn't like it because I just felt that the referees didn't reff the game as they've seen it.

20:06Graham Scott:They were waiting for that out in my opinion.

20:08Kelly:I think that wouldn't have been the case, honestly, Wayne. It really wouldn't. But you do see the game. The Premier League is different, as you know, and it's played at a different pace and you do and the expectations are slightly different so the championship is a bit more physical so you're often especially early in the game as a referee you're trying to gauge what's expected what do these teams expect today from that level of contact are they expecting a free kick or do they want me to play on and quite often the championship 9v5 situations they'll give each other a good clatter and then they'll get up and carry on so you think okay well I'll leave that alone then but you're trying to find that sweet spot of what level of intervention that game needs.

20:51Kelly:And you're adjusting for what you're used to. So you're right that you'll see different outcomes, definitely. And I can understand you wouldn't like that because you want to know what you're going to get. But it's not because VR isn't in the background. That wouldn't be...

21:06Graham Scott:I don't mean the refs are just used to it. So naturally, when you're used to sort of, and your brain's used to make a decision, then I think it's very difficult just to come away from that for one game. I think it needs time to obviously get your brain ready to make them decisions.

21:27Wayne Rooney:Do you think having former players helps? Because there's always a talk about getting former players in a VAR room and helping out with it. How do you think that would play out, Graham? Do you think that's a viable suggestion?

21:40Kelly:Not really. I mean the first thing I'd say is that all the pretty much all the Premier League refs played I mean it's not like we'd never kicked a ball we played I played I played semi-pro not great not pretending I was any good but I did play in goal and a lot of the a lot of the current Premier League refs were academy standard players or represent playing representative footballers as young young young men as they were and we haven't it we do have a very good understanding of the game I don't think it's fair to say that we don't there's no barriers to ex-players becoming refs and never have been.

22:11Kae:Wayne, you can do it.

22:12Kelly:You know, anytime.

22:14Graham Scott:You're welcome. I think you get the same obviously it's such a difficult job to do. I wouldn't lie to do it but you get the same outcomes really because you see how many times as Pundit we're sat there and we think different decisions so I think it'd be the same outcomes really if that was the case.

22:32Kelly:I think there are just occasions when players have a better understanding or people have been at the very top of the game have a better understanding of a player's true motivation so I might think I might give him the benefit of the doubt that he's not gone to do him sort of thing and the next player might say no he trusts me he knows what he's doing there but there are not many of those that we come across but other than that example I think I don't see any great value but in any event we do talk to and listen to the PFA the LMA we have people into the VR hub all the time at training sessions.

23:06Kelly:I'm sure if Wayne wanted to come in on Friday and meet the team and sit through a session, they'd be delighted to have him in, you know, and true with other pundits. They've all been invited, I think, at different times. I'm not sure many have taken up the invitation. You know, actually go and have a go if you think you're hard enough, I would say.

23:26Wayne Rooney:I'd love to see Wayne deal with the first person that tries to give him a piece on the pitch. Do you know what?

23:31Graham Scott:Do you know when you're training? the coaches, the pets have had to referee the games in training because they know they're just going to get abused. So the coaches have pets have had to do it.

23:42Kae:It actually made me laugh at the beginning of this chat when Kay said about the ref cam and how petrified he was every time he saw Bruno Fernandes running at him. I thought, I wonder what it was like for Graeme Scott when he had Wayne Rooney running at him. What was Wayne like, Graeme?

23:52Kelly:He did. Well, he did. He did. So I did Everton Tottenham and Wayne went back there. I gave him his 100th yellow card in the Premier League. Thanks for that. I mean, I didn't give him 100 yellow cards. I gave him the 100th. It wasn't a great challenge, Wayne. I was on Dele Alli late in the game. I think you were a bit frustrated, to be fair. The game hadn't gone well for Everton.

24:16Graham Scott:I think they were like 3-0 up after.

24:18Kelly:They were 3-0 up early. He came running over to me, Wayne. So I've got the... It was Vertonghen, I think. Tackled him. Won the ball. And Wayne ran over to me and said, is he allowed to run into me, smash into me and foul me like that? And I said, no, he's not, Wayne, but that's not what just happened. And he did kind of, oh, okay, fair enough. And you were very good after that, I have to say. You were very good after that.

24:45Kae:The fear in Wayne's face when you started telling that story. It's like, oh, no, what's coming? No, I think there's a famous one.

24:54Graham Scott:I think it was Graham Paul. It was the Arsenal-Many United game. Keenan Vieira and every time I watch that back it's disappointing to see that you're that way and there's a few but I think what's good with ref cam now is obviously you see I think the refs the players now seem a lot more respectful to the referees and of course you're going to have moments where they're not but you see I think you see Colin Gallagher laughing with the referee and Luke Shaw going over so I think they're a little bit more respectful They are

25:25Kelly:it's much better on the field than it looks on the TV that was Michael Oliver the most recent one and he has a particularly good rapport with almost all the players, he's been around a long time, he's been around longer than almost all the players now, so I used to find it easier when I'd been on the list longer than the players had been in the league, because I was already there and they joined, whereas when I was new, I was the new boy and they were sizing me up but no, it's much more respectful and most of the relationships we have with players are good, especially just normal running commentary during the game.

26:01Kelly:But clearly when a really big decision comes, they're going to try and influence it. And I would do the same if I was playing, of course.

26:08Kae:Would you have liked ref cam, Graham, when you were repping?

26:11Kelly:Yeah, I mean, I would have done. I would have been happy for my comms to be broadcast as well because I always try to speak very calmly and clearly and politely. I didn't swear. Well, not very often. But some of the referees wouldn't like that so much. they're used to being able to have a different kind of banter if you like with players and banter in the proper sense not this kind of unofficial inappropriate language but yeah I would have liked it I think it does help bring to life what it's really like and how fast it is I challenge anyone who talks about assistant referees decisions go and buy a ticket for row A in a Premier League game in a stadium sit behind the assistant on the edge of the box and try and make offside judgments from a seated position when you're I mean you've got to run up and down with the flag it's so so fast it's unbelievably quick and the players are all these different moving parts those assistant referees are amazing at their accuracy and ability to judge offside and we get the odd one like yesterday where it's wrong but even that is you know they put a still frame on social media I can tell off a still frame but show me what the picture half a second earlier, show me the picture half a second later and I bet at some point the players are onside so it would have been much more challenging than the still image would suggest.

27:29Wayne Rooney:I've got a question, I think it's for Wayne and Graham. Did you ever get one team where the players would crowd around you all the time when there was decisions to be made? And is that something like that managers sometimes tell players where they're like, get onto the ref as soon as he makes a decision, like win the battle or something like that?

27:49Graham Scott:Well, from a player's point of view, we did, yeah. I think it was well known at United that we used to not so much it was more the generation before our team but we still like the manager would say to us get around to referee and decide make a decision the problem we had was every time you do it if you get booked for the descent the manager would fine you

28:18Graham Scott:so it was like well you're going to fine us anyway if you do that so but no but there was times yeah I think I think Mourinho as well his teams were were quite clever with it well not clever but trying to put pressure on the referees where I think naturally it would if you could put that many players coming up to you and obviously making it was it now if it's three or four players around you'd get booked

28:41Kelly:the third one the third one in should be yeah

28:43Graham Scott:the third one yeah

28:44Kelly:it shouldn't even really be two but yeah I mean certainly we of course we're fully aware that some teams are doing it as a tactic as a strategy and it's not, it's obvious and then you deal with it you'd have to deal with it I think I think the refs could be a bit stronger on it I have to admit but you know I was one of them and I would have tolerated more than I should have but it's clearly, it's deliberate it's coached, it's taught and it's sad really that it's done but if one team does it the other team of course feels obliged to do it because you can't let the other lot get in there and have their say and you be left you might miss out so I do understand what happens

29:23Wayne Rooney:I've got one more question Graham was it was it harder towards the end of your career to keep up with the athletes not because of your age but because of the level of fitness that you have with players

29:33Kae:I'm always fascinated about how referees keep so fit because you do have to be so incredibly fit yeah

29:38Kelly:yeah well we do similar training programs fitness training similar to the players and we just don't do the ball work you know so we'd get to go home a bit earlier but oh what

29:46Wayne Rooney:so there's like training like all you refs get together yeah

29:49Kelly:We get certainly training GPS units a lot, you know. Of course, you know. I mean, heart rate monitors.

29:56Kae:Well, so you all do it together or do you just do it remotely?

30:00Kelly:It's a combination. So most of my training I would have done on my own because there was no other referee in my immediate vicinity who was full-time. But then we train twice a week in the gym collectively in regional centres. And then we have our training camps at Loughborough, which are at least once a month. Sometimes they come around more often than that. and then there's separate var training every week so there's a whole program going on the whole time but fitness wise i did get it of course it got much harder my my career went on a bit of a it was strange because when i started which was in 2014 i did a game i did burnley villa my first game and it was incredibly quick and it went the intensity of the game extended well into the second half which i wasn't used to normally the intensity eased off so i was really blowing I didn't think I was going to survive but I did fortunately and then we had the Guardiola years and the club years where the game has become much more tactical and people playing through the thirds and that became physically a bit easier and now teams are mixing it up much more aren't they so we're seeing much more we're seeing all types of football we're seeing them play from the back but also we're seeing the goalkeeper knocking it long again the quick long pass to catch the other position out and that's made it more difficult and also Howard's philosophy is to get the referee up ahead of the game a bit more whereas before we tended to sit behind the ball and just sweep in behind.

31:23Kelly:This is quite technical but it does mean you're expected to be ahead of the game and therefore be sprinting to get there constantly. If you watch particularly the games in Europe, they're forever doing these long shuttle runs and they're running more than the central midfielders now which is 12, 13, 14k sometimes.

31:41Kae:Well, Graham, we've kind of gone off in so many different directions here. Sorry, even asking you about your training now and offering to come along and podcast from there. But I just wondered, bringing it back to Saturday night at Villa Park, and you've mentioned that Chris Kavanagh's a top ref. He wouldn't be in that position, of course, if he wasn't. But I just wonder what happens next. How will he be supported? How will that be reviewed to almost help him ensure that doesn't happen again?

32:03Kelly:Yeah, so here we'll have, there's a protracted process in the Premier League. This is an FA Cup tie, so it'll be slightly shorter. but he will have a conversation with his coach. We have coaches. So there's a handful of coaches that basically work with four or five, six refs. And he will have a one-to-one conversation with him. And then they will have a team meeting, probably today, possibly tomorrow, where they'll go through the game. And they'll be able to hear the audio and they'll unpick. They will unpick everything that happened and put a plan in place for next time. in particular around the handball, one of those two officials has got to lead on that decision next time to make sure they don't miss it.

32:48Kelly:Whereas instead, they've kind of both lost a bit of focus, I suspect, and it's been missed as a consequence.

32:54Kae:Okay, well, Graham, thank you so much. We've kept you a bit longer than I think we initially planned, but thank you. It was really interesting to hear a completely different side and also to hear quite a nice story, actually. I thought it was going to be a worse one about Wayne with referees.

33:07Kelly:Fair right, rather.

33:09Kae:we'll save them for next time it's a family show

33:11Kelly:yeah Graeme thank you so much you're welcome thank you very much

33:14Kae:okay before we go two more stories from this week Man United's winning run came to an end at West Ham it finished 1-0 Wayne it looked like they were going to do it but of course yeah they didn't in the end what did you make of it what's the feeling like because at least they didn't lose

33:29Graham Scott:I thought West Ham played well I thought United a little bit flat in the game I felt obviously been brilliant the first four games since Michael Calix gone in I think he made a big call Michael in Embrymo and Cunha changing them two round and I think that maybe affected the way they played because Embrymo is one who is running behind and Cunha coming in off the side has been better or playing as a 10 at times so I think that little change maybe put United on the back foot a little bit but done well to come back in the end great finish by Cesc also. Point is very important, especially at the stage of the season.

34:10Wayne Rooney:I'd take the 13 points out of 15, to be honest with you. I think it was the only thing I was sort of worried about was we didn't have as much time to prepare as we usually did for a game. It was like a midweek game. And I feel like at times some of the players looked a bit leggy. And I think that's where like squad rotation hasn't been a thing of late. But having said that, if Casemiro's goal was given, do you know what I mean? like it could have completely have changed the game and we could have gone on to win it but I think from a Man United's fan perspective if you said would you take 13 points out of 15 from that run of games everybody would have like bitten your hand off and Michael Carrick's still unbeaten as Man United manager and that is something to be celebrated

34:52Kae:and the good news is the next game isn't until Monday the 23rd of Feb so if what you're saying is right Kane there was any signs of kind of tiredness got a little bit of time

35:00Graham Scott:yeah I'm going it's the Wayne Rooney Derby isn't it yeah yeah

35:04Kae:Don't wear your pyjamas.

35:06Wayne Rooney:I thought it was a Phil Neville derby.

35:10Kae:The England head coach as well, Wayne, Thomas Tuchel, is staying until 2028. He was actually at Villa Park yesterday. I'm sure you saw the camera kind of panned him. He was in the tunnel post-match as well. I saw him kind of talking to some of the England players in there. They were laughing and joking. It looked like they were all enjoying each other's company a lot. But what did you make of that decision and the timing of the decision?

35:30Graham Scott:I think it's very clever from the FA. and from Thomas Tuchel if he wanted to stay beyond the World Cup which he clearly does it takes away now all the speculation obviously there's a few clubs who are looking for a manager in the summer and Thomas Tuchel will be right at the top of their list I imagine so it takes all that speculation away on Thomas while England's at the World Cup which I think I remember when Van Gaal agreed to become Man United manager and he went to World Cup with Holland and you're having all the speculation you're still you know a lot of talk about him and stuff where now and I think it's right it's right to do it from the FA and Tuchel they've agreed the real estate till 2028 and there's no speculation now the only focus is on the World Cup so I think that's definitely the right decision

36:27Kae:Kay as an England fan pleased that it's just sorted it doesn't look like they're going on the right track with Tuco? I know a lot of people have said that in the past doing this hasn't worked so well for England.

36:37Wayne Rooney:I think, do you know what, I think for all the reasons Wayne just outlined, it is a good decision on behalf of the FA, but I do think sometimes it's a bit premature. I'd want to see how he would do at a tournament before the deal was given, but I think, I guess it's good for the players and I guess it's good for the camp as well when there isn't any sort of noise surrounding a manager's future when you're going into a tournament. But I think it, it makes the managerial search for a lot of clubs that are looking for a manager in the summer a lot harder because there's not a lot of top managers around that are out of a job.

37:16Wayne Rooney:It's interesting that there's talks of Carlo Ancelotti getting a new contract. And I think he's taken like, he's gone to Brazil, he's watched a few games on a Copacabana beach and he's gone, what? That contract extension? Yeah, give that here. I'll do that right now. But, like, yeah, it's interesting because there's not many managers available now. You're looking at like De Zerbi, Nagelsmann, he's, I think he's out of contract after the World Cup. Go and mention your mate. Yeah. Oh, what? Xabi Alonso. Yeah, but yeah, Xabi Alonso as well. Yeah, yeah. But, yeah, there's not many that are free. So, like, if you're looking at, like, a Manchester United or a Real Madrid or whatever, it's like, Who do you go for?

37:58I think it also, for Tuchel,

38:02Graham Scott:if he knew he was just doing the World Cup and then he was going, then I think he'd make decisions with no fear of the impact that's going to have on that player moving forward. Where now, for instance, it'd be easier for him to leave a Dubanguant or Phil Foden or whoever, whatever play that is, and not have any consequences beyond the World Cup where now he's obviously going to be making decisions on, right, well, this isn't just a one-time pick, then pick him for the World Cup. I need to keep this player for the next tournament. So I think it will be a positive. It's certainly a positive to keep him there for the next two years, but also I think it will affect slightly, not massively, but it will slightly affect his selection of team.

38:53Kae:Is that good or bad, Wayne?

38:54Graham Scott:I think it's good because, listen, you can get caught up with this player shouldn't be in the World Cup. We've got five players, five number 10s who are all world-class number 10s, if you like. If that's the case, I still think Thomas Lewis will pick a team. Like, for instance, if England are starting a World Cup tomorrow, I think Morgan Rodgers start ahead of Bellingham and Foden, if they're all in the squad. so I think it won't affect him that much but I just think it'll be in the back of his mind right if I leave which Dubangham should never be left out of that squad anyway if that's the case but if there is any doubt he knows he's got to deal with it then beyond the World Cup

39:39Kae:Yeah it's going to be interesting from a reporter's point of view I'm glad that it's done because otherwise every interview would have been saying any closer to your decision any closer to your decision so yeah it feels like everyone's got a bit of clarity Wayne we're recording a bit earlier on Sunday today. Can you tell us part of the reason why? Where are you off to?

39:57Graham Scott:I don't know. It's my son's Bertie. My son's eight Bertie today. So we're going to, I don't know what it's called, Waterland or a water park in Stoke. So, yeah.

40:07Kae:You love a water park, don't you?

40:10Graham Scott:Yeah. No, I've been before. I've been once before with me, with me 12 years old now. So I think that just at that age, even as friends, to where they want to go on the slides and stuff.

40:21Kae:Okay, then that's where we'll leave it. Thank you, Wayne. Have a brilliant day on the water slides. I can't wait for people. Okay, imagine being at that water park and all of a sudden being like, that's Wayne Rooney at the top of the log flim.

40:34Wayne Rooney:Yeah, it'll be certainly some surprise. There's a bunch of people in Stoke that don't know what they're in for today.

40:41Kae:Yeah, have a good one. Happy birthday to your son as well. That's where we'll leave it. Thanks as always for listening to the show. We'll be back on Friday. a reminder you can watch the Wayne Rooney Show on the BBC Sport YouTube and iPlayer or you can listen on BBC Sounds.

41:18Wayne Rooney:The Six Nations.

41:22Graham Scott:on BBC Sounds.

41:27Kelly:We focus on the part of the internet that most people don't know about. It's called the dark web.

41:33Wayne Rooney:Undercover in the furthest corners of the dark web, US special agents are on a mission to locate and rescue children from abuse.

41:43Kae:Move in now. Police!

41:44Wayne Rooney:From the BBC World Service, World of Secrets, the darkest web follows their shocking investigations. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your BBC podcasts.