Wayne and Moyes: The Transfer That Changed Everything

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0:30Snapdragon, that's how. I remember coming back from Mexico, and I'd come back away. What, at 16? Yeah, and I remember you sent me round Croquipack. So I was running with the physio round Croquipack? Yeah, and I was thinking, oh my God. I never wanted Wayne to leave, you know. Sir Alex phoned me and he said, I want to meet you in the Haydaw Thistle Hotel. So he came in and he says, I want Rooney. I says, nah, it's not for sale. He says, OK, that's fine. He says, but you're not letting him go to Chelsea or anywhere else. So I was in Switzerland. It was like 100 degrees. With the blade. I understand how to put the pillowcase off.

1:11And make a bandana. I'm going to tell you, with a bandana on my head. What Wayne would do to be back to those days when he was getting his hair set.

1:21Well, it feels like today could be a little trip down memory lane, back Wayne at somewhere you know very well, sitting next to someone that you know very well and he knows you very well. Yeah, obviously, when I come through, it was Belfield, weren't I? And that was always my dream, was to get to Belfield with the first team. And thankfully, I did. David brought me into the first team, gave me my debut. And then we met again, didn't we, at Man United. And then back here, Finch Farm. Still doesn't have to feel, does it, at Belfield? No, it's not the same. Obviously he's bigger, better and whatever, but he still doesn't have that fear of Belfield.

2:03What's it been like, David, for those who haven't realised we're joined by David Moyes. David, thank you for being with us today. What's it been like having Wayne back around the place? It's great. He's legendary wherever he goes, but certainly at Everton and certainly for me, I always look back and think that managers need to be a bit lucky sometimes in their career. I was telling somebody a bit earlier that I remember Walter Smith had just lost his job and I was taking over from Walter who was my really close friend and a mentor in many ways. I went round to his house the night before I got the job and he says, you know you're really lucky.

2:40He says, there's a young boy in the academy, his name's Wayne Rooney, he's a really good player. He says, you'll be really lucky, you've got him there. And I went, aye, okay. You think you might never see him, you've heard it so many times. but I certainly was lucky. Sometimes in management you need to be lucky and find that good players are on your doorstep and Wayne was there at the time. I always like asking people the first time they heard of Wayne and obviously you've been told about him there by Walter but what was it like the first time you kind of came across Wayne? Well they were telling me Wayne will remember the game probably better than me I think it was the semi-final FA Youth Cup.

3:17The final? Final. And it was at Goodison and I came down the pitch and for some reason I think it was after the game and I remember I don't know if they're out doing a cool down or something and I remember just sort of this is what my memory we might tell it was something different we sort of tamping them on the shoulder and saying hey you'll be with me next year but actually I think before that we had to take you out of school and put you on the bench at Southampton yeah when you were 15 maybe yeah it was before that so it was was that before that I was on the bench at Southampton yeah and then you'd said to me I was going to be on the bench thinking Blackburn last year in the season.

3:55And then I'm assuming I would have come on because the season was done really. We beat old Hampton away. I'm still fuming that he didn't bring me on. You did that. You watch it was warming up. I was warming up for ages. It wasn't a surprise making stories you started. I'm saying, it's the switch. But then I got called up to England under 17 for the Euros. So I had to go. So I was, it was that or potentially make me debut for Everton. I was like, I don't want to go. I've got a chance of playing for the first team. And then at that time I would have beaten Joe Royals record, being the youngest player.

4:31But then I had to go, so then anyway. But in the U Cup against Villa, I remember you come to me and said, you know, have a few weeks resting, you're going to be with us for pre-season. And then I had Benetton booked in with my family. So I went to Benetton. Of course you did. You went to Benetton. It's manager's job's not that easy, as you can see. So I went to Benidorm and then I always remember, I think it was a bit staggered how we went to Austria, was it? It was a bit staggered how, because players were going and doing tests. So I flew out with Steve Simington. On the Friday, he had this racing post.

5:07It was fine. I was thinking, this is mad to go on a pre-season with the first team at that age. It was mad. But yeah, I went to Benidorm. I was controlled. Behaved yourself. I was controlled, yeah. and then come back and then obviously from there done well in the pre-season and ended up starting the first game you know he's going to Tottenham the season You'd obviously been told what a special talent he was by numerous people I imagine it wasn't just Walter but what was it like when you actually first got to work with him? It was a bit like you know it was a cheeky scouser there but also an unbelievable talent which we were saying he can't be that good at that age and actually I was getting quite a lot of criticism from the media because we had other good centre forwards at the time Kevin Campbell and Thomas Roszinski and quite a few others Big Duncan was still around at the time and one or two others and actually trying to get Wayne in the team at that time wasn't easy because they were senior players a couple of times I think we had to play them off the left at different times in the early days but I say this quite often to a lot of the young players quite often you don't get the big gig in your team where you play until maybe a centre half he has to play it right back a few games before he gets the gig.

6:19Maybe a central midfield player has to play off one of the sides. So it can easily happen. But look, the talent Wayne had was a bit which we found really difficult because he was also physically equipped to play in the men's football, which was really, really strange for someone who was so young at the time. But he was a brilliant talent, and not many. And I remember saying it, and I'm saying it now, is we used to talk about street footballers in this country, people who played in the street. I don't know, I'm saying this, but for me, Wayne was the last of the street footballers, or certainly the ones I know anyway.

6:57But I was thinking back to the other week, well, the other week actually, yeah. I was thinking for you, that must have been tough because you were still your manager in your early 30s. I was, and not known as well as maybe some others who maybe got the job. I'd done okay at Preston, done a decent job, But to take it and then walk in and, you know, the level of the players that we had at that time as well was really strong. Yes, it's quite a special, I suppose that period in Everton's history is quite a pivotal point, isn't it really? Because you came in and had all the success you had. One of the best ever players was coming through.

7:33And you first came here in 2002, I think it was? Yeah, I think that's right. Yeah, it must have just been an incredible time for this football club almost, the start of something quite special. Look, I had a brilliant opportunity when I got a chance to manage Everton, but I always felt, someone had said to me years and years ago and said, look, you know, at that time I've been getting offered quite a few jobs in football, you know, I've been offered quite a few to go to the other Premier League clubs and I went to see Sir Alex a couple of times about jobs I've been offered and he said, no, I'm not sure you should take that job and different things.

8:07And actually, I had a big chance to become Manchester United assistant manager before that as well. And it didn't pan out. So when Everton came along, it just felt right at the time. But the players we had in the time, you know, we'd really the first couple of days in, I had Paul Gascoigne still in the building, David Ginola, you know, from Duncan Ferguson, Tommy Graveson. They were amazing players. And Everton had probably, I think at that time, under Walter, had signed a lot of top players. Maybe just the wrong end of their careers, but a lot of top players. And I had to... Was it hard dealing with those egos and stuff?

8:48Yeah, a little bit, because obviously I'm a relatively young manager. We don't know what that feels like. Young manager coming into it and trying to put your own side over, really. And sometimes when you're a young manager, all you can do is sort of go out and do what you've done and what got me the opportunity to get the job and that's what I tried to do. Why do you think David has had the success that he's had at Everton? Because it's not just been in one spell, in two spells, they sometimes say, don't they, don't go back, but look at the success you've had, even when you went back to West Ham.

9:20Do you know what, when obviously David came back into Everton, I was so happy because I spoke in Germany, didn't we, at the Euros? And where Everton have been over the last few years, they've needed stability and I knew 100 % when he came back in, he'd bring that stability first of all. And as a fan, all my family have been fighting relegation the last few years. And God, not again. So obviously, made up when he came back. But the first time, I think, obviously, it was when I left, weren't I? And the squad you built, obviously, with Jags coming in, Bainsey coming in, Distant, Tim Cahill, the squad whatever, you're looking thinking.

10:02I was lucky I wish I was back I was back it was such a like a strong powerful squad full of men really do you think there's like something about managers choosing the right clubs for themselves sometimes because I feel like certain clubs are just great fit for certain managers I agree I agree I do and I think that and if you go somewhere that doesn't quite fit I actually also think a big thing and I'm saying how lucky I was to have weighing as a young manager because it brought more media attention, which brings more on myself and Wayne, especially at the time. But overall, you also need good people to be above you.

10:43And I had Sir Philip Carter, Bill Kenwright, who for me were great people, huge encouragement, people who didn't listen to the odd supporters group saying, hey, we think we should change the manager. They were more sort of board members, straight people, and gave a young manager an opportunity because there were probably a couple of times in those early years when maybe I didn't do well enough and they could have easily said, hey, away you go, which they might have done in modern football. But they were proper men and sort of stuck to the task and believed in what they were doing. Going back to, obviously, you had Wayne and then you said how difficult it was for you to leave Everton.

11:22This was your boyhood club. That must have been a weird period for you because I guess that almost enabled the money for Everton, enabled you to build a team, the team that Wayne probably looks at. You said then you looked back at the team and thought I'd like to play with them. It's never nice for any player, I suppose, to leave the club who they've supported and grown up. I think it was obviously absolutely everything in my life was Everton. It was Everton, that was it, me whole family. And then to get to a stage where you're about to leave, which I think was rife for the club and rife for me at the time, it was it was weird it was because there was talk of Chelsea of of Newcastle all this was going on and I was 18 I'm thinking this is mad and then when I finally knew that listen it's the best if I do leave for the club as well and then I'm like well I want to go to Manchester United and then for the scouser to go to Manchester then again I remember speaking to my dad saying I'm going to go to Man United I remember my dad's face it's like so I knew that was going to be tough as well but I backed myself I was always quite confident and backed myself but then it was a horrible feeling and again I remember talking to you in your office and you said how can I sell can I be the one to sell you because what was it like from your side of all that I've got some great stories on it I never wanted Wayne to leave you know and I knew Paul well he's agent and I didn't want to go and then You ignore all his poems.

12:58No, then I had, the worst was, was the guy who I sort of looked up to so much was Sir Alex phone me and he said, I want to meet you in the Haydott Thistle Hotel. I went, oh, what's this? He wants so I know. Does he want any? And I got in and there was a room booked, one of the rooms booked and he came in and he says, I want Rooney. I says, nah, it's not for sale. No chance. I'm not selling him. and he says okay that's fine he says but you're not letting him go to Chelsea or anywhere else I says no chance he says that's fine and he left it at that to be fair he was very straight because I'd told him that I didn't want Wayne to go so I think there was a bit I don't know the time maybe three or four weeks later I get another call meeting at the same place again back in the Haydaw Thistle again and this time it was you know I want Wayne and things had moved on and it found it very difficult and actually I think if we're right Wayne we actually played Man United in your last game I think when we signed you Well I was injured were I still I think that's what's right and so and we're getting the money and it was it was Bill Kenwright myself at the time he was doing it and you know all of us Bill Kenwright was a huge Evertonian and you know didn't want to certainly not to let Wayne go he was he was just too big and just everybody liked him so much Did the Euros happen between those two meetings?

14:18Yeah I did Did the Euros happen in between them. That probably might have been a big deciding factor. Because that was another thing I had to do as well. I had to flim in. I felt as if, well, I went up, Wayne, when he made your debut up at Middlesbrough for England, was it? Where was the game? Sunderland. Sunderland. So I went up to Sunderland to walk, I'm saying, I'm not letting MD get near him. I was saying, I'm going to go up there and try not letting MD near him. And it was even worse when it was the Euros in Portugal at the time because Wayne was wanted by every man in the dog. Don't tell me you went out there as well.

14:51I was out there and I was with the family in Algarve and I was driving up to the games in Lisbon and all around where England were because I'm saying I'm not letting anybody get near Wayne if I can't know. And I'm hearing Paul's stories in the bin of paper. He's meeting people on yachts and I'm saying oh no, how can I stop this? You know what I mean? Binoculars. But it meant so much to me because he was helping me and whatnot. But I always look back and Wayne will probably tell you worse stories than me. And I tell the story because when I was a young player and I was at Celtic, the only person who I could even think about, who I could sort of equate Wayne to and what would happen was Charlie Nicholas.

15:38When Charlie Nicholas was a young player at Celtic and how Celtic treated him. And Charlie was my friend. We would go out together and we were going about. We still are great friends. And I'm thinking, well, how did Celtic deal with Charlie? And I was probably quite tough with Wayne at that time, young boy. You make sure you're doing all the right things. Was he tough? Yeah, you know. But I think if Wayne went back now, I hope he would probably turn around and say he would probably have to do the same. If he had a young Wayne Rooney and he was manager. Well, I remember I phoned you and I phoned you up.

16:10Because I'd said some things which weren't nice things when I left. And then I phoned you up tonight and said, I apologise for some of the stuff I said. because when you get a bit old and you realise if you're wrong whatever and then well thankfully I did because you come in at United but then we've got that story to tell as well that's the problem so really we were you know at that time I was losing Wayne to Manchester United it was a huge blow but we tried him we didn't want him we let him go can you be as tough on young players now as you were with Wayne back then or has the game moved on just on that kind I think it was tough on me but I weren't the easiest to manage as well so when I look back and just think no I wouldn't put yourself in the eye can't you no but there's the people that the people that are watching this on YouTube that are watching this podcast there's another role there I always think how would I manage a young version of of me and I weren't the easiest I was obviously from Crocs from the street and I would go out and even at that age I'd like a beer and whatever.

17:20So, I didn't make it easy, but then, I remember coming back from Mexico and I'd come back with a weight. What, at 16? Yeah. Oh my gosh. And then, remember you sent me round Croquay Park. Running. So I was running with a physio around Croquay Park. It'd all be a year and I was thinking, oh my God. Whatever, but then, it's all, obviously, I was a player, I was a confident player, but also, I weren't easiest to, So you couldn't do the same now though, could you? I think you would try to. Going back to it, it wasn't easy to deal with. And I was more annoyed because Paul's in the room. We can say that in the camera, can't we?

18:05Paul's in the room. Paul's had about more mentions in this show than he has in the whole series. And I'm saying at that time, Wayne was getting loads of things, whether it be newspapers, I think it was Pepsi, Paula. You know, boots and everything. I'm saying, oh my goodness, I can't keep them training. I can't keep them focused and all this stuff. But it's amazing how well Wayne and Paul have actually, and still are today and how that's going on really, because, you know, Paul had to guide them through it as well. And I was trying to do what I thought was the right thing in those early days, but they've done not bad.

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20:19It must have been really hard for you though because there must have been an element of you that knew probably when was going to leave. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. You wanted to keep... Because also you knew that he had this incredible potential kind of once in a generation. I think ideally, I think another year would have been... But then I think because of what happened at Euro 2004, I think then everyone... because Man United Alex Ferguson wanted to wait a year he wanted to wait another year and then because I'd done so well at the Euros it was just basically everyone was trying to get in ahead of the other one and then it it become you know inedible that I was going to go with that so much you know we needed it at Everton as well because Bill Kenwright said to me when I joined the club he says David I'll be able to give you 5 million a year to spend and I said I said it's ok Bill I said it's but here's what I want, as long as I can prepare my players however I want, take them away whenever I want, whatever I want to do.

21:15If you agree to that and you don't sell any players without my say-so, we shook hands on it and that was it. And that was the deal I had with Bill Kenwright. Now we got the money for Wayne and we knew that that would boost the things that Wayne said. It gives us a chance to buy a few more. I think sometimes when you're a club on trying to rebuild, maybe if you want to call it that or pick it up, sometimes you have to sell some of your best players on the journey to try and start again and see how you're going. We had to do it. After Wayne went, we had it with other players as well where we brought in and we had to sell Mikel on or Joanne Lescott, John Stones, all the people over time have had to move on.

21:52I guess that's where as a manager you have to, you kind of earn your money I suppose to speak in terms of rebuilding a team and making the best of what you've gotten I mean I said it before it didn't really go badly did it I mean you'd have loved to have kept Wayne but you managed to keep the success going It was that year the Champions League We got to Champions League It was that year I left Champions League I didn't realise it was actually that year So we'd gained a bit Were you watching on going We were gaining momentum really as a club and a team at the time and obviously we'd lost Wayne but we'd tried to replace it with other players and maybe not in the same position but other players who would help us the Tim Cahills of this world and we went on to say qualify for the Champions League that year yeah not bad and you've got Wayne Rooney sitting thinking I should have waited a year actually I know obviously but when you look at I think the players you brought in for that generation of Everton's history you know you've got Bainsy Jags Cahill Tim Howard coming Phil Neville coming and you've got like a real core and a real I remember coming back here with United already when you control Stafford you're thinking that's a strong you knew it was always going to be a tough game especially at Goodson it's going to be a tough game so in the long run when you look back as well it was definitely for the better for Everton You've achieved so much in your career David and the longevity is just staggering really but when you look back on how you rebuilt those Everton teams and the success you had particularly in that first period here is that one of the things you're most proudest of?

23:28I think I'm really I'm really proud of doing 11 and a half years at one club when that was the first stint, you know, to do 11 and a half years it's not sort of norm for any manager and certainly not at the moment so I see that as being success and I said Wayne's probably got something that I've got he's got bundles of medals and I look at managers like Jose Mourinho or I look at Sir Alex and Pep and I think wow, they're top end, they've won so many things but there's also been some Some great managers come into the Premier League and have failed, and not failed, but had to go away, not stayed that long.

24:04And sometimes maybe just success is a little bit connected to being in it and staying in it and being able to do the job and try and stay and work. It's not easy in the Premier League. Particularly in this day and age as well, isn't it? Absolutely not. Management, it feels like, I mean, well, you've been in it as well. It feels like it's more brutal than ever. Yeah. Well, look, I think there's no managers that are ever going to have it all the one way. I don't even think the best ones very rarely just it goes one way. I think if you're going to come into management, you're going to have peaks and troughs.

24:31And I think in the bad times, you might need good people around you who know how to, and you hope that maybe they help you. Maybe it's owners of football clubs, people who don't panic too quickly. But also, if you don't have the right players, you don't have good players, then it's going to be very difficult to be successful. How much has it changed? Oh, it's changed greatly. because there's been great managers when you look whatever's happened there's been great managers but if I started with Sir Alex and thought of his leadership and his management and how he managed to and a bit of Jose Mourinho fitting into the next part of it then you look when Pep's come into it and how Pep's re-evolved the whole the whole system really it's meant that there's a bunch of hugely talented young coaches out there.

25:25A lot of Pep disciples who are doing it and doing a lot of what Pep's done. Some of them have been incredibly successful but there's another lot who have not been able to carry it out which happens in football. So there has been a sort of evolvement of different types of management. So I think you have to try and keep up with whatever's going on and you have to find your own way of doing it. I don't think I really changed my principles too much but I want to evolve with the... How do you do that? How do you keep up? I'd watch and try and learn. I used to always do it when I was a player and I was trying to become a coach or I wanted to become a better player.

25:59I think that's part of the reason. When you go into coaching courses, you don't necessarily go on to become a coach. I went on hoping to try to become a better player and learn more. I think as I've gone on, though, I've tried to keep updated. I used to go to so many places. I went to AC Milan when Carlo Ancelotti was the manager. wrote to Sir Bobby Robson when he was the manager of Barcelona and he wrote me a brilliant letter back at the time why I couldn't come out so I had different at that time I was out trying to find ways of learning to see what was happening so I think you've got to keep trying to learn and I think the minute you think you've got it sorted then that's when you've not got it So what would you say how would you say you've changed from when you first started out to now?

26:45I always believe you know see when I first started out I think I was even I think I was better then because I had no baggage no media when I was manager of Preston North End I could run the players as hard as I liked and nobody would complain you know your pre-season honestly we were really tough you know tough yeah and what would it talk us through when you think I've just come out of school and then I'm going to my first pre-season and it was three sessions a day so you wake up you go on a 45 minute run then you have your breakfast then you're doing a session Is this pre-sport science coming here?

27:20Yeah, this is absolutely. This is when I didn't have any of those people around. Then you have your lunch, then you back out of there. I remember your son doing it once, but it was in Scotland. Yeah. And I remember thinking, I was struggling. I was looking at your son, I was thinking, you must be struggling. And he kept going. Your son was there and chose to do it. You know, again, I was saying it, saying, at the time, you know, I was a young manager, so I had a young, my son was young, you know, and he was and he you know if I could I used to say to the club any chance I could I could bring him up to Scotland or Austria wherever we're going because I didn't see much of him during the season I said and he came and actually my son tells the stories I had him out on a few trips for an American and we were always out somewhere singing or something and they were making my I don't know he'd say it was 12 or something I'd get up and sing and everything he's probably still scarred for life about the things he's seen and what he's had to go through so but you know that was good it was actually you know something it was good because it allowed me to get a bit closer to my son for a few weeks so I grabbed some of the cars he stitched me up we were in Switzerland I think it was my second my second free season and do you remember Bick Mead?

28:32you remember they done Jimmy Lummerson as well Jimmy as well Bick Mead yeah Bick does that mean shaved yeah so like with the blade with the so I was in Switzerland it was like 100 degrees yeah so I'm like So I ended up having to cut the pillowcase up and make a bandana. So I'm 17. There's got to be a photo of this somewhere. I'm 17, I'm going out to training. And you get sunburned so quickly as well. I'm going out to training with a bandana on my head. Do you remember that? Absolutely. What we would do to be back today is when he was getting his hair shaved.