Wayne Meets…Big Sam: Why He HATED Subbing Wayne & Diouf’s ULTIMATUM

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1:14They're not going for young ones either. And he's there, come on we need to beat these. When the prize ball moved on, afterwards he's laughed at bull****. I have to tell Yuri, Yuri, I'm in camp, I let you know, look. Unfortunately, your legs are going a little bit, sorry. Did you say that to him? No, I just said you're going to America.

1:39Well, it is almost Christmas and we have got a gift for you on today's Wayne Rooney show. Myself, Wayne and Kate are joined by the one and only Sam Allardyce. Well, firstly, Sam, welcome. Thank you very much. Lovely to be here. And secondly, Wayne, you must be really pleased to have Sam on because he's someone that you've spoken about already on this show a lot. Yeah, no, it was great to have him on. Thanks for coming on. And obviously worked with Sam. Not long enough. Not long enough, yeah. Half a season at Everton. Is that all it was? That's all it was, yeah. I don't know why, but to me it feels like longer.

2:10Maybe it's because you've spoken about it. Had an impact, imprint on you. Yeah, no, I think I've said before, what really surprised me is the detail what Sam went into. and I don't think he gets the credit. He deserves that because, like, we talk about, you know, the science of football now, but it actually really opened my eyes seeing how much Sam went into detail. You were one of the first, weren't you, to sort of like... Well, I announced it in 2000 when Bolton got promoted, 2001, and we were talking about it before, a lot of the stuff came from NFL in America when I played at Tampa Bay Rowdies, and I went up looking at the NFL lads who were training pre-season and seeing the staff and everything.

2:56So a massive effect on me. So my life was, by the time I got to manage it, it was about experimenting and I did all the clubs and the lower divisions to get where I got. I used to test out something that was different. I think that I wanted a staff that said, find me something that we can do that football doesn't do at the moment so we sectioned off every department and we gave we gave the responsibility to the head of that department and they had to come and create their own their own way forward on what we're going to achieve and what we're going to do which opened up their minds to saying can we get might be this piece of equipment in can we go and visit this this sport or can we do that or can you know what what are we going to get you know i mean why are we drinking why are we not drinking this type of electrolyte why are we why are we having food or why are we not having food at the end of the game where where's um proteins lie uh what about ice baths uh cryotherapy unit first in the country that wasn't me that was the physios and the recovery lads you know which nobody wanted to go in because that was minus 120 I'll be honest I was one of them I've done it twice when you come in to heaven remember you come in and said you have to go in after training if you don't you get fined so I went in once I felt I felt sick because I was at the end of my career really then I went up to Simon I said, Sam, I can't do that.

4:42What do you do when Mike really comes to you? It's a really weird experience. It was a complete difference because I used to get a warm bat. Oh, right, yeah. So the difference from me getting that to that, and then if it was a younger player and you're getting him into the habit. And I was like, I'm really... It is weird, isn't it? You have to put socks on and have a hat on. Yeah, that's right, and have a mask, yeah. The thing is, the more you do it, the more accustomed you become to it and then you get a bit of... The only place I went to that players had it before a game was Sunderland. Before?

5:12The main default was the instigator. He loved it. So he said, I'm going to try this before a game. So he tried it. And like anything else, you want anything doing, you get a player that's saying, oh, I feel great. Somebody goes, well, I'll have a go. You know what I mean? And so that's the only place. But after a game, in terms of reduction of inflammation, uh lactic acid stuff like that fluids so you know diet nutrition weights you know we we covered it all and uh and one of the biggest one that's still not talked about enough and football doesn't it sport psychology that was massive in uh in the terms of the players like i mean and that was our lad was full-time one the part-time crap like you mean how can you have a relationship with somebody that's part-time crap.

6:03And that was a big plus for us on monitoring and guiding and then, you know, having fun. What were the specifics a sports psychologist would do, though? Was there anything specific that you could remember? It was his fault if it didn't go right. Now, what happened was this, is you go and do your own thing. There they are. we're having one session together here he is right and every now and again we're all going to come together and discuss about what we're doing and then every now and again the staff's all going to come together and discuss what we're doing planning that and it's up to you whether you want to use him or not I think that's really important because I had this with Steve Peters of England Steve Peters when we were in England and he come in so he said he wanted individual meetings with all the players and they give you like a time slot so i said to do stuff it players might have their own psychologist so to do it individually it has to be the player coming to you not the other way around and then if it's in a group fine you can do it in a group that's not a problem but so that's where as players when we were playing we were like well some will go and see you some won't you need to try and build that relationship to get it to where you will because if you're forced on them.

7:23I think with Bill Bezic as well when Steve McLaren was playing here. Oh, Bill, yeah. And if it's forced on you, like anything, you're not really going to want to do it. Is that what was key for you as a manager, to get the buy-in from the players? Oh, yeah. To show the lads, you're not one of them because you have to have a separation. We called it the team behind the team, the staff. So we're all one team, but the team behind the team was the ones that supported them. And it was a amount of generosity that the players would give to the players, to the staff at Christmas. Because they weren't on great money.

7:54I mean, you think football clubs, the Premier League, pay the backroom stand. They don't. They're really tight. For the qualifications there. It makes a big deal. When I was captain of England, at the end of one year, I sent all the England staff to Las Vegas. I paid for them all to go out to Vegas and paid for two pool parties for them all and stuff. And just, you know... Yeah, that's amazing. They were absolutely... because they wouldn't be able to afford to do it and so players doing things the staff makes a massive difference we had two player liaison officers one male one female and you can't imagine the part they played because they were the ones that got the phone call from the wife especially somebody abroad they were the ones that sorted out the houses there was one that sorted out the mortgages they were the one that sorted out the bank accounts they were the ones that got the phone call, you know, picked me up at the airport at 12 o 'clock at night.

8:53I've got my car or whatever this s*** talked about, you know. And they played a massive part. They sorted out Christmas parties for all the kids to come and all that, you know what I mean? They sorted all that. They used to tip their wives out. My missus used to go with them, Lynne used to go with them. They used to go all that. I mean, she used to get a bit of abuse sometimes. Mind my Johnny not playing, he's better. I'm not the manager. But that was a bit of the fear. You've got so many foreign players that came in at that time as well. The player liaison, how quickly they settle in, because you know a new centre forward comes in today, he's 100 million quid or now whatever it is, and his wife comes with him from abroad and they don't speak English.

9:42What do you do? If he goes home and she's crying, you're finished. What was wrong with Di Maria when he came to Manchester United? His wife really hated it in Manchester. Actually, the lads at United, they got a lot of support and a lot of help in terms of schools for the kids, restaurants to go and eat in. But then what happened is they ended up relying on that too much. So four or five years down the line, they're still doing it. Instead of being independent by that time. So you think after four or five years, you get things put in place for you, then you'd be able to deal with it yourself. And that's where they used to use the play liaison officers, like phone them up at three o 'clock in the morning to tell me TV's broken.

10:29Yeah. And do you know what I mean? It's wrong. You shouldn't be there for that. Parking fines. What about that one? They'd come in like a bit jufy. They'd get the parking fines about that many. Well, the club had to pay them? No, no. They'd try to get jufy to pay them if you had any money left. Just like me. One of my first questions, when I heard you were coming on the pub, was obviously we see managers now and they're only in post for kind of a year, couple of years. It feels like there's a real fast turnover. And you lasted so long. And it feels like we don't see that as often with managers now.

11:02I was going to ask you what the secret was, but it feels like maybe you've answered it. I was going to ask you what the secret was as well.

11:11Oh, yeah. I've done the hard yards so playing in every division and managing every division and then show them when you get there so there isn't really anything I've not seen, done or heard, so from good and bad, so all that knowledge, I'm a dyslexic so my brain is full of knowledge because it doesn't retain knowledge reading it doesn't do that So mine retains its knowledge via listening, watching and learning, like I mean. So it's only later on in life that I saw that as a massive advantage in my life. And at school it was a massive disadvantage. But I think that's one of the things that helped me because I remember.

12:00So doing the hard yards with all the lower divisions, dealing with all the directors, and this is where my life comes in when I talk to managers and mentor them. it's not you dealing with the players if you can't do that you shouldn't be in that game it should be easy for you dealing with your directors and your sporting directors and your owners yeah dealing with them is much more difficult and much more important because if that without that relationship with the owners and without the fact that i could go to farad mashiri and say we need to go to dubai yes okay sam and put a private jet on you can only do that if you build a relationship Was that always one of the first things you'd like to do at clubs?

12:43The trouble is now, you don't speak to the owners. You speak to other employees at the football club. So Steve Parrish, I mean, I took Steve Parrish in the dressing room when we got beat by Sunderland, and when we were both fighting relegation. And Steve came in shouting and screaming in my office like me, and Steve did, and I went, come on then. What? I said, come on, you go in the dressing room and tell him. him. Go on, tell him how you feel. Because he's a true, he's a true Crystal Palace fan and owner. I mean, it was a cracking. 20 minutes. I wish we could have recorded it. Absolutely slaughtered him.

13:25What, you know. Is it better than John Sitton? No. That's interesting. The difficulty now is when you say now about instinct and stuff and the owners, the problem now is so many owners are abroad somewhere and you know you can speak to them off the phone and whatever but but actually feeling that passion is a bill can write was obviously chairman but it's the same you see his passion for the club rightly or wrongly um and i think that's so important where where i've had a i had it with sam and halla at plymouth yeah who he lived abroad but he was very much a plymouth fan and one of the best but then i have tom wagner in bermain who who is a bit distant, I think he's a bit more there now, it looks like anyway.

14:07But to have that relationship, it's difficult to hold the phone. I was going to ask, what was the most challenging role that you had, do you reckon? That was me trying to lighten the mood. Well, you know, look, there's challenging roles to everything. My problem was reputation, allowing...

14:28Well, other managers as well, by the way, not just the press and the media, saying long ball Sam. I should have killed that at the early stages. Because when it sticks, it sticks. It never releases. So if ever I went anywhere, I'd say to the press officer, do you want to bet? And they'd go, what? And I'd say, well, I'll bet you.

14:55If they don't mention what style of football you're going to play in the first minute, I'll give you 100 quid. and if it goes past that before they mention it you give me a tenner and I always ever give him 100 quid all the time because within 15 seconds is what style of football you'll play I feel quite bad Sam because I came in and did one of your first interviews at West Brom yeah and you'd say that would you I don't think I did but if you never had to play it it means I lost off but the thing is this the answer to that is winning football and that but punditry and we've all done it and i've done it i don't do it as much now because i just do my own podcast but but balancing out the fact that who who are what and where you do and what you've got to do is that everybody seems to think that's it nobody nobody mentions well they do mention yuri and people like that but do you think we played like that when we had anoka we had yuri yorkaf jj kochya fernando yarrow ivan Campo, El Ed's Duke, Gary Speed, Kevin Nolan, I mean, Stelios and a couple of, I mean, it's an international world-class team nearly.

16:03Arsenal used to hate you. Arsenal couldn't win him, it was nice winding him up, but the fact of the matter, it was disrespecting those players calling us that, you know, so everywhere we went, it's all, this plays this long ball, I mean, and I say, well, it's not a long ball it's a long pass in the end it didn't matter because you were never going to lose it so it cost me it cost me Everton when you came in Everton I think we were 17th or 18th something like that went south and then and then we finished in 8th position but then still still complaining the fans really complaining it cost you the job didn't they I guess when it's going well the fans like it as soon as it starts going wrong that was politics I found out in the end.

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17:57OK,

18:03well, I'm going to try again. Sorry, sorry. No, it's all right. I just wanted to get you two chatting about what it was like to play against each other. When you knew you were playing against a Big Sam team, what did you think going into a game? Because teams didn't like playing against Big Sam's team. Yeah, no, well, you knew it was going to be a tough game. you always knew it was going to be a tough game and whether that's you know with some of the flair plays you've spoke about or whether that's crosses into the box long throws you knew it was going to be you listen to Patrice Everett talk and I think Gerard Piquet his career in England got cut short because he couldn't handle Kevin Davis and so everyone knew it was going to be a horrible game a battle and you had to win the battle if you wanted to win the game so it was never easy How do you prepare for a player like him?

18:56He's still working out You would get two on him as quick as you could and so I caught with the fact that he's one of your main players which is always your focus I think there's a focus on how much sometimes our analysts used to go a bit too far and now I'd end up with the negatives on what you've got to be wary of look that's got to be two, three minutes just the main and then we finish with the positives of how we're going to beat them and what we're going to try and do and all that because you can actually give too much information that's why I used to say in the end, it's up to you whether you want to see your clips, it's up to you whether you want to, because I'm going to monitor your performance you know, so if I leave you out I've left you out based on what I see and your performance declining.

19:50So your big problem would be if you knock on my door, I'd say, how are you playing? And then I'd say, what do your stats say? There you go. I don't know. Well, there you go. So it would stop me having the aggravation. I was experiencing stuff then not to know that. I was not knocking at the door. that's the beauty of it because I used to have the argument with the manager when we didn't have any stats and I was right and he was wrong and he was right and he probably was but I wouldn't be having it because I'd be so upset about getting left out so if they want to speak to you now they better have some now there are some times where I hold my hands up and go listen it was purely for this game and it's my decision and you're really not that it makes them feel any better there's anything they've really done but I've just done it for the tactics of this game particularly do you remember the first time you faced Wayne as a player I thought it was Everton was it now or was it Man U well yeah it was you should have done this research for me before I got here no it was when I put it on my note I wanted to see if you remembered it it was at Goodison it was because I always remember it was when when Campo was playing and always remember we drew the game but I think I actually played quite well I remember Campo coming up to me at the end and he asked me for my shirt I think I was like 16 or 17 it was 0-0 but it was named as one of the top 50 individual Premier League performances ever that's why I asked if you remembered it I can't believe it was 0-0 that's unbelievable it perhaps was if it was 0-0 but do you remember in that game thinking because he was only young in his career do you remember thinking what a talent.

21:40Yeah. It wasn't hard. Scouting away in Rooney is not hard. He stands out a bit. Going and scouting somebody else to fit in for everyone. It's not going to be hard to scout him and say, get him in my team. Do you know what you said after? What? You said Lucky Moisey. Yeah. I think he's got a talent there. Yeah. And then Ivan Kemper, what did he say to you after? He come last for me shirt and just, like, said that I told him a path, basically. The quotes I think Ivan Campo said I told him he's a good player but that he's going to become a great player he can play in any team in the world I've played against Rivaldo, Ronaldo Del Piera, Inzaghi all of the Bayern Munich players and this boy can play at any level in any country You know what this country called Campo?

22:23A clown That's what the press called him a clown of a player He'd just won the league round was rid But that's where it's mad isn't it because I'm coming to heaven coming to 1130 and I'm looking at Campo I'm thinking I'm playing against the X Realms so you get excited and you think if I can get the better of him then it's crazy the good thing is it's the best league in the world and it's got better now everybody's stopped tippy tappying

23:00three years we've been doing my podcast and I named it if I'm doing a podcast it's got to be no tippy tappy football because I'm sick to death of it. Now, you know, everybody's changing again. We're seeing more goals now than the last three years. Did you always think it was going to go back full circle? I was just. The only thing that needs to change is they need to go for old managers again instead of young ones. Is that a come get me play? They're not going for young ones. One thing what really stuck with me is, you can talk about Pep's coming and they're playing out from the back and all this and the one thing which stuck with me the one thing I used was remember that everything you kick off yeah you used to go as high as you can into the D and get bodies around it so then when I went into coaching I remember everyone was kicking it to the side and I was like what's the point I remember that I'm getting snow on it I used to say right so I got Ben Decker at DC United yeah so I said right what we're going to do as soon as it comes back to the keeper you sprint and you've got to get to the D get as high as you can you've competed the first ball and get bodies round because you might get the second ball get a shot or runners in behind him whatever and then now I'm looking at the kickoff did you put me out of play I know what's going on the tactic behind the madness I think that the life the life you get from what ultimately Sky changed football into in this country is just marvellous you know I mean, it's one of the challenges we have.

24:34One, we have to be good enough to deal with it and face it, but you can't because there's always a downside to success that you get in football. And I think that what weighs the best is is how many great times I've had. When you look back, what are the highlights? Well, one, as a youngster, being a professional footballer, So I say, when I left school at 15, I'd never worked. That's my, when I do my Q and A's and all that, I said, I haven't had a job really, because I have, I've had a great job, and I got paid for it. So what youngster coming up today wouldn't want to dream that the dream that I had became reality.

25:19And I never knew that my life as a coach and manager would be far greater than my life as a footballer. So that dream, and this is what I say, because the dream then becomes reality. And if you want a dream, then you focus on that dream from as young age as possible. And then you can make it if you've got a talent. Because you will improve your talent the longer you practice. So if parents said, OK, our son wants to be a footballer or our daughter, then focus on that. now at school they've got to do English and maths yeah they don't have to do much else football should be the next one because if they're going to male or female you're going to make yourself pretty rich because women's football in terms of the pay is rising all the time transfer fees are rising so their future is really looking good as well but you get into football and you get into the Premier League you're not only getting well paid You love what you do.

26:23You can look after your family and do the things you've never dreamed of doing before. Let's keep talking about modern football then. Are you enjoying watching it again now? Did you fall out of love with it for a bit? Yeah, I did for a while. Especially, well, I shout on the settee quite a lot sometimes going, what are you doing? Like, I mean, when the centre-half passes it straight to the midfield player and he goes through and score, And I go, I'm just frustrated about the basics of the game have been no different to be successful as when I first got taught them at 15 and 16. I don't think I ever did this to them.

27:08It's a simple factor. Simple is genius. Football's simple. Every good footballer who knows who's played, I'll tell you football's simple, isn't it? Simple. So there's your defending third. That's red. This is your middle third, that's amber, and there's your final third, that's green. What does that mean? Don't do it there. You can do it here, you can do what you want there. Yeah, don't lose it here. Create there. Be a genius up here. There's a lot of managers that complicate that though, don't they? All the time. Yeah, and that's the issue, and I think, especially now with managers, they're trying to do too much and the players are getting too much information.

27:51and what I said before, Sam will give you information. What I really liked was he gives you the eight game plan. So you have an eight game plan and say, right, we're looking to target 12 points at these eight games and the next eight games you might, you look at the fixtures, it might be 10 points, it might be 16 points. And if you hit your targets, you're going to finish in this position because that's what happens every year if you do the match. But now players are getting so much information where it's like they can't even think of themselves. Yeah. It is crazy. And like you said, people learn differently as well.

28:28So you trying to tell players sometimes, like in a boardroom or whatever, and playing them videos and stuff, like getting them to play a certain way, they might not even retain that information pretty well as well. How much of an impact did Sam have on you as a player? Because you were a more experienced player when you were at Everton with him. And you did brilliantly at Everton. I just wish he was a bit younger when I got there because he's been, I mean, he had a great influence when he was there and all that, like you mean, but, you know, you're talking about world class, aren't you? But he was just, you know, like we all do.

29:04I have to tell him he's getting a bit slower. I have to tell him, I have to tell Yuri, Yuri, I'm in camp, you know, look, unfortunately your legs are going a little bit, sorry. Did you say that to him? No, I just said you're going to America. and the ownership want to move you're not me so I'm the one that's going to tell you I went into town and said you want me out when Sam someone else did but yeah no but when Sam came into it I was I was pleased because obviously I'd heard a lot about your work and so and then sure Perry with England obviously when I'd seen the detail he was going into I was really pleased I was You can see, obviously, Sammy Lee come in with you.

29:50I mean, that was a difficult job for me, bringing a Liverpool player into Everton. As a coach. The day before we played Liverpool at Anfield, I remember Sammy's got us all round in the huddle, and he's there, come on, we need to beat these. When the players have all moved on, I tapped the words, Sammy, you don't have to ****. I love that. I love that. I love that. I love that, yeah. But no, I really enjoy that. I've come back a little bit and was playing in midfield. So it was, as I say, if you look at Everton since actually you've left, Murray's just doing better now, but if you actually look since you've left the club then, it's been so difficult for, I know financially and the ownership and all that, but actually when Sam came in, I said before, we were 17, we nearly made Europe.

30:47I know, for me, this was the biggest breakthrough I never thought I'd experience again would be to take a big club back into Europe and into a new stadium. That was the format that was set forward by Farad. But unfortunately, because of others, which obviously is probably not the best naming at that time, there was a lot of stuff going in behind the scenes to get me out. Which wasn't... Well, there was one or two players that didn't like me. That happens everywhere, like you mean. But I thought it was one of the best jobs I'd ever done. Because we struggled. I mean, I think you were a leading goal scorer, Neal, weren't you?