Wayne on England’s striker CRISIS, how he INJURED his son’s teacher & his possible COMEBACK

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1:06Discover the V-Series lineup at cadillac.com. This international game was a perfect opportunity just to say to Harry Kane, go and have a week holiday. I can't remember who it was, you were just Kane in the right back. I'm better than you at right back. I played in the school game. It was me, Steve McMahon and Jagielka played against to teachers. I actually dislocated one of the teachers' shoulders. Let's start with the Withenshaw Vets. Do you not fancy it, Wayne?

1:36So, Wayne's pool drank, not having my bad internet anymore. We're all back together. Yeah, well, I've done an extra 40 minutes on me day, so I had to get everyone down here. That's why match of the day started late. Yeah, I think it's still uploaded now to watch that podcast. Yeah, we are all back together in the studio in Manchester. And it's not just the three of us. We're also joined by someone that Wayne knows very well, of course, from England days, Emil Heskey. Thanks for being here with us. Thank you for having me. Yeah, it's good to... Give him a clap. Give him a clap. Come on, come on.

2:10Emil, how are you doing? How's life? Yeah, good, good. Busy, but good. What are you up to these days? Watch the boys play podcasts. I'm just keeping myself busy. Boys play, how are they doing? Well, very well. captain of the 21s, Man City, the eldest one. The younger one plays the 21s, but he's in Qatar at the minute playing for the under-17s World Cup. We've got a couple of football dads here. Have your boys come across each other? I think he's been a bit more. They both played for the first team as well. Yeah, both made their debut as well. Wow. Wow. Huddersfield in the Cup a couple of months ago.

2:45How does that feel as a father to see both of them do? Crazy, because I was actually away. I didn't realise. they never told I think they found out sorry they didn't tell you no they found out two days before but I'd already been booked to be away I kind of had a feeling they might one of them might make their debut but both of them on the same day was amazing wow that's incredible have you managed to catch his son players or anything have you seen them are they cross party boys no I think yours is two years younger a little bit younger but there's loads of talk obviously around Manchester as well there's been loads of talk for the last few years over Emile's kids.

3:23So it's great when you see young players and obviously when you form a teammate as well, you see their kids coming through and making the debut for the first team. It must be a proud moment. Do they play the same position as you do? No. The youngest one is a winger, left winger. As you know, everyone on the left wing is now right-footed. So he's a left winger. And Jadon, the older one, he's a midfielder. Okay, we've got so much that we want to get into with you today. but let's start with the Withenshaw Vets. This is gaining a bit of traction. I've heard a lot about this recently. Tell us a little bit for people that are listening or watching this that don't know what the Withenshaw Vets are.

4:03Give us a little lowdown. I can't tell you too much because I was kind of, how can I say? I won't say duped into it. So Stephen Ireland's got this tendency to say, you fancy a game? All right, cool. Come on. All right, when is it? Sunday this time be there bring your boots well okay cool and I didn't know what it was I actually didn't know and I just rocked up and it was a proper league game what did you think it was so Tuesday nights there's like there's seven aside sometimes they go to eleven aside Jolian plays it every now and again sorry ex-football did you know this happened ex-football I read about it but I didn't know no exactly so we just get together every now and again and they go and play and sometimes it's at the like indoor box like a box park kind of thing in Hanford yeah that one so sometimes you play there and then sometimes you just they get a random field somewhere and pitch somewhere so then he texts me he says oh do you fancy a game I said alright cool I'll come down and then he sends me this address and he goes it's at Withenshaw and then I turned up and it's a proper full on game and then playing some Scars oh my goodness did he make you pay subs no I didn't they asked they did ask for it too I just I snuck off I don't know what was the guy I was in Dubai and I was in a sports bar watching one of the games on the TV and he'd come up and I don't know he was the founder of us and he was asking me to play but obviously Bardo Yeah down there a bit as well and asked me to go to training on Tuesday and I've never been but I think he'd had a few he'd had a few things he'd asked me to play and you probably said yes he asked me to play but yes and something just come out as well.

5:50Saying he's playing it. Yeah, so... Are you? Go on. It might be great pod content. We can record from there after the match. She says scoring seven a game. Well, I saw him miss a penalty the other day on TikTok. No, he scored after, didn't he? Oh, is he? Okay, yeah. I guess I just sort of missed. That was it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So how did all this come about? There's so many around the area and I think it's just the lads getting together wanting to continue to play football. There's so many coming out of retirement, going into retirement at 36, 37, 38, and they've got nothing to do, but they've got so much time on their hand and then everyone still wants to play.

6:32Keep fit as well. Yeah, everyone still wants to play. So you see good teams as well and then some younger lads as well. And then I don't know how this old Withenshaw thing come about, but yeah, that's how we... But Stephen Allen, he's got... he has like one-on-one coaching and stuff yeah he does for this team specifically just him in general in general he's just done it he obviously loves football he's super fit well so you turn up at a power league and Stephen Ireland's just there like practicing yeah incredible yeah and he does one-on-ones coaching that and then does one-on-one gym he plays in the baller league oh wow yeah he plays in the baller league yeah he's playing in that you see when you were playing did any of the centre-backs like try and like make a name for themselves to try and you know like get get stuck in with you or something all of them yeah i'm sorry if you walk up and see like ex-pros i'd get back in my car and well yeah there is so to be fair so the sort of football the first time i went well it's the only time i went but um i was looking i think i can't get on this pitch it was the tackles that were going in and there's there's the referee and it's not the best i feel the referee yeah it's tough it's tough it's tough so yeah but it was good fun in the end I just went on the left wing and stayed out of the way what is the reaction though when when you like rock up can you imagine that if you're going to play like yeah I know what looking at you rather than weighing yeah 7x pros playing in the team that's what I told you I'd get back in my car I'm not playing against these like and the funny thing is a lot of them are still fit as well but they're expecting I played in the school game was it this year or last year it was this year I don't know if it was this school year it was me Steve McManaman and Jag Yelchel played against the teachers and then the whole school stood around the pitch and then you feel there's an expectation you get to do stuff and I actually dislocated one of the teachers shoulders

8:30I think he was a sub teacher I think and he played he was really young and I think he worked at Man City and he was going around and he was trying to smash everyone the dad versus the teachers and He's coming to me off, just like shoulder bars then. Yeah. And he's gone down, he's gone up on his shoulders down there. So I felt really bad, but kids were buzzing. I was from the side, I just couldn't really say it. He was like, no, not that one, the biology teacher.

8:58Oh, you just got him in trouble there with his biology teacher now. So you're in the league in Cheshire at the moment. Are you a regular player or is this a one-off? No, I've only done one. I'm supposed to be playing on Sunday as well. I feel like you're trying to distance yourself from this, Emil. Now I'm playing on Sunday as well. Oh, so you did enjoy it a bit more than you're letting on. Yeah. A few more people there watching. Yeah, I know. This podcast goes out on Friday. Where is it? People want to go and watch? Cholton. There we go. Cholton. Didn't you lot put 13 past the team you played?

9:26Something like that. Oh, it's so blase. I think that time it was seven, I think, or eight. But they were good. And then they got a man sent off. Do you not fancy it, Wayne? No. Do you not miss playing at all? yeah you miss of course you miss playing but I need big stadium and more fans also if you rock up and see Wayne Mooney there like you're going to be kind of targeted aren't you if you know what I mean they're going to want to put the challenge in on Wayne Mooney like they were trying to yeah and vice versa as well you're going to put the tackles back in yeah so I think yeah I'm happy to do what I'm doing he's happy here unfortunately sorry Emil I did try and recruit him.

10:10Is there like a long-term plan? Any other players you're trying to recruit or is it just a case of... I'm just going along with it. No, no, I'm just going along with it. I am playing on Sunday. It is in Cholton, I think. I feel sorry for the lads that are just normal fellas in the team. Do you know what I mean? It's not normal. No, but you know, ex-footballers, like Premier League footballers and then you're just like an electrician or something. So is there normal... I don't like the phrase to normal people. But you know what it does show? Knowing you have Sunday League football and you've got a group of players who are retired and nowhere near as fit as what it once was, it shows the difference and just how big the players were and how physically difficult it is to play at the top level.

10:57Yeah, it was like there was a load of people going, oh yeah, if I was in a City team, I could score 20 a season. And it was just like, they turn up and I suddenly get retired pros and can't kick a ball, yeah. So Wayne, you're not interested in playing in this game now, but wasn't there a rumour once that you were playing in your brother-in-law's team? There was, yeah. So it's a local team where I'm from, from Croxton. And I don't know how it came about, actually. So many people texted and said, are you playing on Sunday? And I think it was against the rival team as well, so I've put something on my Twitter, hinting at all.

11:33Sky trucks turned up there, reporters, police turned up a few thousand fans people turned up to watch the game and you were just out so yeah I'd let them onto it let them believe but yeah it was quite funny actually they must have been buzzing the biggest crowd they've probably ever played in front of wasn't it yeah but where we're from it's quite dangerous haven't we I don't think the police were too happy with me okay we couldn't have you here Emil, not talk about strikers, having two that played at the highest level in the room and UK. What do we think about the current state of forwards in England?

12:16I mean, Harry Kane is, firstly, let's have a word on Harry Kane, because he's playing almost, it feels like, at another level at the moment in the season he's having. Yeah, he's incredible. I've said, for me, I think he's the best English striker of all time. I think his goals, his goals, his link-up play, he's at a top level now. It's got better over the years. It weren't always like that, but I just think he's incredible. And I think he gets overlooked as well sometimes. I think you talk about Haaland and Bape and Ronaldo Messi, the goals they score, his numbers over the last few years is incredible.

12:51I think he gets overlooked. Is that because of the trophies? Yeah, maybe it is because of trophies, which I think he should have left Tottenham a lot earlier than when he did. And you can just be loyal and show loyalty to a club. But, you know, if he was in Bayern Munich, say, over the last 10 years... Yeah, he would have been up there. He'd be getting talked about at that level as well. But he's incredible, I think. Yeah, his numbers are great. But not just that, his all-round play and his leadership as well to continue. that's the most difficult thing to do to continue to do that season in season out to score the goals different types of goals dropping in scoring long distance scoring headers inside the six yard box scoring left foot right foot you see a lot of players they get a certain sort of goals he's got a variety a wide variety of different goals and different finishes but then to go to different places and do it as well now obviously he's in he's in Germany doing it And then on the highest level when you're talking international football.

13:55Do you think if he wasn't English, people would probably respect him a little bit more? If he was like a Brazilian, I think we'd have a lot more respect for him. Well, even when you look at... He should be spoken in the same light as Lewandowski and people like that. And he probably isn't. I wonder if he's starting to be. Possibly, yeah, because again, he's winning trophies now. You know, for many years, the goals he scored for Tottenham, and to do it at Tottenham and not... Not at a... The best teams is goals for England. And people say, oh, some of us goals are against Andor. It's so difficult.

14:30Them games were the toughest game. Because you're expected. And teams sit in. There's no space to continue doing that for so long. It's incredible. Yeah, I always get frustrated when I'm away with England. I think it's just underappreciated. I think when he finishes, it's almost like... But that's frustrating, isn't it? It's like, why can't we see what's in front of us now? We've had that for years, even for Wayne as well. He was overrated. I don't think appreciation-wise he was appreciated in the way that he should have been when he's there. You look back now and he's like, oh, can you come back?

15:05When he stops playing, and I'm sure that's what we're going to go on to, is who's there? We'd be like, oh my God, who's going to score the goals for us? Well, who's on his level in the Premier League playing now? I can only think of like Haaland, that's probably in a similar bracket. but even then we're talking England so who's going to take it yeah exactly England there's probably nobody there's no one we're looking back towards Danny Welbeck now where we shouldn't really be but that's where when you think about it when you look back at the 90s and you had people like Andy Cole Teddy Sheringham Ian Wright Chris Sutton Alan Shearer Les Ferdinand you can reel off Stan Collymore yeah Stan Collymore no I know I know No, no, no.

15:52Emil Heskey, Michael Owen. I was getting there, right? You could reel off name after name. You're going up, weren't you? Yeah, absolutely. But how come there's no strikers now? Is it because of the way the game's gone? I think it's more for the way the game's gone and the way people perceive the game now. You'll find that you've got three, four, five wingers. More than three, four, five forwards. everyone wants to be a winger cutting in the shooting people ask me even with Liverpool would you like to play in that Liverpool side I said yeah it's great but who's going to supply crosses for me they don't cross the ball no one does all that everyone wants to be a Mo Salah or Messi when he plays playing as a forward now you don't touch the ball as much and you've got to be ruthless like Haaland is and Mbappe Mbappe gets on the ball a bit more whatever ball there's no number nines out even Harry Kane now he's not out and out nine he's dropping in you've got to remember we play with two up front as well now it's just the one up front it's totally different I think Wayne you spoke about it one up front now and a nine you've got to be very patient he might not touch the ball for a while and you can get frustrated I spoke about this the week I used to get bored when I played at number nine on my own I'd score goals but I was getting bored with the game because I want to play football I want to be in the game Do you think the stats have something to do with that as well?

17:17So, you know when they'll be like, oh, so-and-so played at number nine and he had X amount of touches on the ball. And if you're a younger player and they're looking at your stats and they're saying, look, you haven't gotten the ball enough. Do you think that in the back of their mind, there's a lot of players thinking about that and they're saying... I think it's the way the game has gone. And I think when Pep come into England as well, especially, and it's not just them, but how City play, it's more possession-based, it's more positional at times as well. and I think when you, like when we were younger and we played with two up top, you knew the cross was going to come in the box and you knew your full backs would get forward or the ball would get laid back to them and they'd put the ball in the box where now it's bring it back on the other side and no one's shooting from the edge of the box no more.

18:04So I just think... I think forwards had to be so much more involved when we were playing. You know, you'd have to chase things into the channel. you'd have to win their flick on you'd have to come back in there you'd do so much more now it's your ten your two eights are doing more your wingers are quite wide and yours have got to stretch the pitch you don't really have to get involved as much well everyone's playing with two number tens now I think yeah there you go so exactly even if you want to come deep there's three people you've got two you'll close up space there's not space for you to do it yeah take the leash off your laptop with the processor that gives you long battery life.

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19:11Where does this leave England though? Because going back to the Harry Kane point, Harry Kane's 32 and I'm not saying that's old because that's younger than me, but at some point, if Harry Kane was to get injured this summer, where does it leave us? Because just eight English strikers have appeared in the Premier League this season. I think this international break was a perfect opportunity just to say to Harry Kane, go and have a week holiday. He doesn't need to be there. He'd want to be there though, won't he? Yeah, no, he'd want to be there. Every player wants to be there. You need to take that.

19:39I'd be the same. he might want to be there but you need to take that option away from him and say right go and have a week holiday with your family and get some sun and we don't need to see and then the opportunity for Thomas Tuchel to look at players and see what they can do Jack Grealish may as well book us holidays in the summer now him as well because he's not getting in the squad you think Anthony Gordon stopped out and he still doesn't get called into his own so I think Thomas Tuchel is quite set but that number nine position I think this is a perfect opportunity for them to look at different players.

20:12And Watkins as well, it's a big... But who should he be looking at? Who's the next best option for Harry Kane at the moment? He might be a Winshaw vet. That's the way you were going. If you look at the forwards, does Olly Watkins, does Welbeck... It's thin, isn't it? ...Havit Lewin? It's thin, it's thin. Ivan Toney. Ivan Toney? But is he being tested at the highest level to then drop into... Well, he picked him a couple of scores ago, didn't he? Did he play him? He didn't mean... He played 88th minute substitution. But, I mean, you're not really sport of a choice, are you? Then you have to look to the 21s.

20:51Yeah, the reality is you should be looking at your delapsing players like that. You should be looking at them younger players and saying, are you ready to make that leap into the first team? You jumped quite early, didn't you? But I was playing 21s football and then it's like, then you kind of know that the next step is to you train with them. I trained with Glenn Hoddle and then and then you get to you get an understanding of because the pace is totally different. The pace from 21s the pace from 18s to 21s is big but then the pace from 21s to up to first team is totally different. So you got to get used to it.

21:26I sort of think that we sort of need quotas on how many foreign players you can have in Premier League teams again because I feel like Difficult. I know it's difficult I know it's difficult but I feel like yes the Premier League is probably the best league in the world but I think it's to the detriment of our national team in certain instances where if you do have a young striker teams don't have time to wait you can't embed them in and try and get them to develop I think on that then you're looking at foreign cultures as well coming in and then foreign players and the standard of English players has increased massively I just think it's purely because they don't want to play number nine, the way the game is, tactically the way it is.

22:09So we blame people. If you look worldwide, there's not many of them. So it's not just a problem in England, it's a problem throughout the world in number nine. And I think he's getting the opportunity to play as well. So in Germany, in France, in the other leagues, the younger players get a better opportunity. They get the opportunity earlier. Why do they play us? they can fail we can't fail we're not allowed we have to we have to hit the ground running we have to do well now and if you don't do well now it's kind of you can sit back down there you're not quite ready and that might knock your confidence part of the problem is because our league is so good so if you can't I get that I totally get that but do you think it's much more worthwhile for young English players to go out to like a Germany or a France possibly because you can you can you can fail a little bit there and it not be as detrimental to your career we're getting to finals I think Michael spoke about it we're getting to finals in the Euros we're getting to youth we're getting to finals in this but then players generally won't make it through I think Phil Foden's age group now you're starting to see the real players coming through you've got Gaye and all them we have the players there it's just giving them especially strikers it's having that for them as well you see with Barcelona they bring a young player into the team and they play they play games they persevere with it and they keep playing them and then before you know it they gain an experience and become well as players as a young player you're going to have ups and downs one week you're going to be sky high and then you might not have a great game it's going to be like this until you find a niche that you can just go not everyone's going to be Wazzo or Lamal or players like that you've got to you've got to get through that little stage in England we won't be given that opportunity to get through that stage you find the team don't you and the environment as well yes if you look at Busquets for instance I absolutely love Busquets but if you go and throw Busquets in the midfield in a you know a dynamic team where you ask them to be up and down boxing he's a completely different player so it's finding what suits you as well some players suit certain teams I think we concluded who Harry Kane's backup is didn't we well I did say De Lappan you've got to be looking like them because they're younger players that are going to give you the longevity to actually yeah he's 22 he's the only one at the age of 26 but he's not been getting game time at Chelsea like that has he he's been injured and then suspended only as well he might have to you know look down into the championship you say that but there are other players you think Danny Welbeck because of well he's playing well and he's English so if you're a number nine or if you're a forward who's playing well in the Premier League and scoring goals and you're English you have to believe that you've got an opportunity to be in the squad but maybe the fact that we're talking about Danny Welbeck it is a reflection of where we're at I guess with the other options Premier League for a lot of games at international level is harder than international football yeah yeah it is so if you're doing it there it's only when you meet the top teams at international level it becomes more difficult I guess the problem is though like the longer term of it because we're talking about their age I'm not trying to retire anyone now, but I guess it's like the next five or ten years where are these forwards going?

25:34We've been lucky over the years. We could see where the next strikers were coming. So you were talking about going back to Alan Shearer. You had Andy Cole. Stan didn't play that much. Dion Dublin didn't play that much. So we had all these players. Ian Wright didn't play. Yeah, there you go. And then you had a chain of players that could go from that next level. Then I came in after Sheeran and then Waza came in after me. But then, where do we look now? We've always had that chain. We're really struggling right now to find out. But then look at the wide players. Oh, yeah, yeah. More dynamic now.

26:15You think you've been folding, Anthony Gordon, Grealish, Saka. And in our era, we were trying to find a left wing, weren't we? Yeah. So do you think perhaps the future is probably trying to shoehorn somebody into that position so you look at somebody like a Marcus Rashford but a lot of these players can also play like the false nine but that's what I was saying like you play like a Marcus Rashford in the nine or something like that is that probably the way we have to go possibility yeah possibility but then it changes it'll come back round I said that we're going to play with two we're going to again play with two if you're a young kid now around about eight to twelve and you're just playing as a number nine you're going to be in such a good position in ten years time because it will come back round and you'll you'll have a head start you heard it here first 4-4-2 is making a comeback your boy's a striker how old's your boy?

27:05he's 16 he'd be yeah but now he's gone to the right has he? left him to a couple of days off the right it is the trend though football does follow trends doesn't it? we talk about 4-4-2 so what are most teams defending? 4-4-2 yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah Gwaddy Oldham for years didn't he with Aguero and De Bruyne and Hal and De Bruyne we're seeing long throws come back so hopefully that leads us back into that back into like the 80s and 90s proper football it was it was entertaining as well wasn't it you know you'd you had more entertaining games didn't it less you had a fight didn't you yeah but to come up against centre-halves and you know it's going to be tough it's going to be tough that won't come back though will it with the reffing and VAR no that won't unfortunately I always used to like how some teams would have like a big man and a little man and we'd be like flick-ons do you know what I mean I've said many times Emil was my favourite forward to play with for England and purely because of that because I think we complicate that game that was a big man and a big man by the way he said that before you've been here as well so we can justify the user I understood what he wanted to do as well and this is a thing where you kind of compliment each other you can't just be thinking about your game only you've got to think about what others want so I knew he just wanted to be on the ball all the time so I would try and make the pitch and I was that forward that I didn't mind just making the pitch as big as possible I'd make runs and not want the ball because it stretches them then he can get on the ball in them little spaces because he just wanted to be on the ball all the time Didn't you assist his first England goal as well?

28:43Well I think it was two of them Emil brought it down for me and then the keeper thrived over the ball

28:53you've made yourself sound he was a selfless centre foot is that why you like playing with him because you were selfish he was selfless I don't think he was selfish no but when I played with Emil he kept it simple and it was easy for me to read what he was going to do you play with some players and you don't know what they're going to do so it makes it more difficult for you to make a run or try and get on the ball where when the ball go into Emil I knew if he had a touch he'd lay it off there or he weren't going to try and do all mad skills and stuff, which made it easier for me to play. I think in that England team, particularly during that period, when you weren't in the side, people would see how important you were.

29:31Because of the way that we played as well, a lot of it was fairly direct, wasn't it? So it's up into the forward and then you play off there. Then you start. We had some really technical players, but you generally get it up into the forwards, play off them, let them go and do the work and then you play it out wide and whatever you wanted to do. so having a big person up there and I was I loved putting myself about I loved it so I didn't mind flicking things on trying to bring it down etc and then you go and play from there and that just made it easier for players like this How long does it take to get that understanding because you weren't playing together at a club level I wouldn't play for long no you kind of pick it up straight away don't you football, football I think when you're playing at that level you see him we play against each other obviously in the league and so I know how he plays he knows why he plays and obviously you do bits and training because you can't do that much, you know, wait for that long until you do your bits and training.

30:25When you're away, but you tend to pick it up. It's making me a bit nostalgic. Old football. I like football now, but maybe I've preferred it then. There's one question I have. You see, when you were both at England, obviously when you're seeing younger forwards coming through, did you sort of look over your shoulder going away and got a long lift when you saw certain players? For me, yes. because you have your Colton Coles and players like that coming through and you look at them and you say, well, yeah. But then it's good for me to keep persevering and keep seeing how long I can. I had four years when I wasn't playing.

30:58I was from 04 to 08. Yeah, so, and then I broke back in and I'm like, well, I'll break back in, don't worry, because I knew what I was capable of doing. So it sort of spurred you on seeing that. I had that with Harry Kane. obviously he was young lad coming through and you could see straight away you could see he had this selfish mind from mad angles he's shooting you're like what are you doing but I knew I'd seen it before as with Ronaldo you see it you can and just like so I knew eventually he was he was going to take off I guess my reasoning for that question is because who's doing that for Harry Kane now so who is it that probably spurs Harry on we thought I thought Ollie Watkins was going to be that one that was going to really spur him on.

31:46Because it gives you something different. It gives you a little bit in behind at times. Because at times when a forward keeps dropping in, dropping in, dropping in, you need someone to stretch the game. Ollie Watkins stretches the game, doesn't he? So we thought that was going to be the one, but he didn't really. In his defence though, last summer at the Euros, when England weren't performing well, Ollie Watkins did come up in the big moments, didn't he? So when we are talking about other English strikers, probably we should give him a nod to say we know he's coming. surely he should be kind of behind Harry Kane and that's why I think I'm surprised that he's not in this squad because as I said before I think Harry should be you know we talk about how many games players are playing now and you know it's relentless it's just constant but then we have an opportunity where we don't need to see Harry Kane and that's the thing and that's the thing as well what are you going to learn what are you learning from having him in the squad nothing you already know I think it's his mentality though, isn't it?