What REALLY Happened at Derby? Wayne & Jagielka reveal all

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1:17I know, mate. I've got Aaron Cashin and Liam Thompson both on the bench. I knew I couldn't bring them on legally to the EFL, so they're warm enough. I felt terrible so then in the end I got there Is this the first time they're going to find out? So he's abused me so the next day I've turned up to Therringland I'm getting food the team was coming up he was just like panicking OK so we're on a bit of a challenge it feels like to find out more about you Wayne and today we've got someone who not only played with you played probably against you and played under you is that right? Yeah Yeah, Jags, great lad, great teammate and a great player to have as a player when I was coaching.

2:05So, Evan Captain. This is a long-term relationship, isn't it? That makes it sound like you're married. Obviously, you're not married, but you guys have known each other a very long time, Phil. Yeah, obviously coming through, firstly at Sheffield, then coming to Everton. Obviously, I knew about Wayne somehow, obviously playing in World Cups, lining up the stage, obviously, as a young teenager. But then, lucky enough, I got a call-up, played alongside him. As soon as I came into England teams, he was letting me know how many times he'd nutmegged me. He was playing for Man U against Everton and things like that.

2:37But I think I had a half-decent record. I kept him out a few times. So, no, and obviously, probably a couple of decades later, I was calling him gaffer. When was the first time you kind of knew of Wayne then? I think everyone does. I think you look back at a clip when he scores past team and everyone was watching, the world was watching and obviously you follow his journey. There's been some dodgy outfits along the way. Was there? Sorry, mate. A couple of pictures if you look at him. The lollipop and the flip-flops. So you know that I'm following as a fan. He's sitting there in his Lacoste. He's got a full scouse there with his Lacoste.

3:12Come on, give him a hug. No, but I watched it then again, obviously, as my career sort of progressed and caught up to where Wayne was. it was obviously really nice. It was nervous joining England camps, but I say you've met Wayne plenty of times now and he was very welcoming. Obviously quite harsh with the banter, but that's just the way I expected. Yes and no. I think as a person, yeah. I think you looked at him and I'd obviously come from playing at Everton, so I knew what Scousers were like. I say, but on the pitch and all sorts, I think I wasn't surprised. I'd seen what he'd done, but I think when you get to play alongside people that I got to play in the England squad, yeah, it was a very nice surprise.

3:56What were the things you saw that were different when you were playing against him as opposed to when you were playing with him in training and stuff like that for the first time? I think when you play against someone, you fully, not saying you didn't take training as seriously, but it's totally different to a game time. Obviously, you've got different emotions. When I played against him, you were wired in, you'd done your homework on what he likes, what he doesn't like, where he likes to go, things like that. So it was always a case of how to stop him. That was my job as a defender. obviously Wayne's is totally different Wayne's is how do we destroy the people in front of us it's a totally different sort of mindset but when you come to training the level of what you see those players not only Wayne but the other lads in there in their possession also because when they're in a relaxed environment I wouldn't say they got better but it just becomes you just open your eyes because you're I'm not now looking I might be on his team so I'm now passing the ball I can relax and he does something special and you can enjoy it whereas if you're against him the intensity of your mind is like stop, stop, stop, stop.

4:49So when you can actually be there and actually... Does that make some sense? Yeah, of course. I never liked playing against you because I think your attribute was the defender I didn't like playing against. I liked playing against big defenders and even though the defenders were big and they're strong, playing against Jags because he's as strong as you, he's as quick as you. He likes to tackle, he's good in the air. So your type of defender who was the type I didn't like playing against at all. It was horrible. Do you remember I had the left one on you? Yeah, yeah. Do you know what? I apologise to you.

5:24Yeah, yeah, yeah. I knew. When was this? The ball's bounced in between us and he's cleared it and it was one of them where I've tried to block it but I've come down and then it's one of them. You feel it, don't you? It's probably a red card now. Back then it was just the normal one. So he hasn't smashed me but again, as you just said, you've tried to leave your mark and then you've probably gone over it and to be fair again I as a defender I'm sure I left little bits on people well I'm pretty positive but again you try and keep it in the realms of it and again if it if it oversteps a marker like an apology I'm sure if the ball went to him next time I probably gave him a little bit of a nudge but I say you enjoyed those battles and I understand what Wayne says I quite enjoyed playing against Wayne not because it was easy it's because it was like it was the hardest puzzle I could get do you know what I mean it's like right what's he going he's not going to leave me alone he's going to be able to use his left foot his right foot his head he can score from any distance so there was no period on the pitch where I could say leave him there so if I left him there stood off him 10 yards he's zinging a pass potentially putting someone through I'm getting told off for not being close enough do you know what I mean?

6:31That must be so crazy for you as a defender because you've sort of done your homework and you know everything he's capable of and you know how to stop it but at some points you just can't Well that's when you start looking at levels you know we look at football now and it's probably a bit more like a chess game whereas when we played more so it was basically it was almost me v Wayne and if someone can help me they will but if they can't tough luck deal with it and vice versa like he probably would get more space now he'd be able to go and play right back left back get the ball you know float and use every aspect he's got whereas I'm sure especially playing the Fergie on the left and things like that he had a role where he had to probably do stuff for the team more than maybe what suited Wayne but I'm sure you've got more of an insight in that but yeah I loved it it was tough but I loved it the difference is he could stop me for 89 minutes and then I might just get that one chance I know mate that's the difference that's why everyone wants to play striker that's why no one wants to be a defender so for defenders I suppose it's concentration for 90 minutes the full game where for us we know we can give the ball away or make a mistake get tackled but you're waiting for that one moment.

7:46Okay, so this is all very nice. Lots of respect for each other but obviously you got to know each other better. I imagine when Wayne came back to Everton, would that have been when you really kind of... Probably the England camp because that's obviously we knew with each other for a prolonged period but obviously we knew that Wayne was available and he came back in. It was a bit difficult for me because I was captain at the time but I was starting not to play. Ronald Koeman came in and just didn't fancy me So for me, it was probably a bit more difficult for me to be the best version of me when Wayne came back.

8:18So it was more of a watching brief, unfortunately, rather than a playing brief alongside Wayne at Everton. But I'd say probably our sort of friendship got probably a little bit closer, probably England camps. So we've spoken about England and kind of the moment. I was hoping there was going to be some better stories. You must have got better stories on Wayne. It sounds like he was the one that caused a lot of the laughs when you were away with England and kind of kept morale up. because we talk about it a lot, don't we? I just got bored. That's what I mean. And it feels like he... Yeah, you get bored, so I try and entertain myself and if I can bring someone along.

8:51Should we talk about the move back to Everson then? Because I don't think we've spoken about that too much on this show then. We've heard about it from Phil's point of view. How excited were you to go back and kind of be part of it again? Yeah, well, it nearly happened in the January on loan.

9:08And then Mourinho wanted me to stay because obviously we had the Open League and stuff. so I agreed to stay and then I went and met Ronald Koeman at his house and it was agreed and it was a funny story actually because I'd spoke to Jags I hadn't told anyone so I'd spoke to Jags because he was captain so let him know that I was signing I think it was like the Friday and then it was getting announced on the Monday I think it was so I told Jags so Jags added me into the WhatsApp group with the players on the before the day before so to say just being nice weren't you Wayne Sun or whatever and so on my WhatsApp it comes up as Jimmy so I've put alright lads I'm looking forward to meeting you tomorrow or whatever but she was called and texted back like abused me basically well we were we weren't associated with any Jimmy's so obviously he presumes someone's found someone else's phone seen it was the group chat and just sort of invited themselves in or something he thought it was Jimmy Cohen oh yeah she just thought it was the mass air so he's abused me so the next day I've turned up to 30 grand and I'm getting food and Shaver's come up and he's just like panicking ready but yeah I got abused and he's away from the nicest guy ever Shaver's as well Shaver's yeah for me going back that first game I'm stoked to go back and scored didn't you?

10:26yes scored 1-0 to score the winner and have my family there that was such a special moment was that the most exciting thing about going back your family seeing you back in the never-nature yeah definitely was that a big part the reason you went back so that your kids didn't know could see and then Kaleem was pregnant at the time so my youngest so they all got to see me during that season and there was big pressure you know going back I can imagine there was big pressure going back because for me I'm thinking of the fans obviously when I left in 2004 and so when I went back I was on nerves and pressured and I knew I wasn't going to be the player I was when I was there as a 16 year old so then my game had changed and it adapted a bit so I I started to go back and bring my experience in, but also still had quality as well, bringing that quality.

11:13Did you feel like you owed them? You owed them a little bit? No, because when I left, I spoke about this before, but it was reasons both from the club as well. So not that I owed them, but I felt I wanted to go back. I didn't really want to play for anyone else in England. I know I went on to play for Derby, but I didn't really want to play for anyone else in England. so it felt it had gone full circle but I wouldn't have went back if I felt I couldn't contribute to the team. I weren't just going to go back because that wouldn't have been the right case. I felt I ended up top scorer that season.

11:48So I contributed but for whatever reason the club wanted to get rid of me at the end of that season. So I weren't going to argue, I weren't going to go through the same process of what happened last time so I left with no issues. Can I ask you a bit about what Ronald Koeman was like? Quiet, weren't he? Why did you think he lost, really? It's because he's spoken about Dutch managers before. That's what I feel like he's got quite a lot of respect for them. Koeman, I think, is different to Van Gaal and different. Kocku, obviously, had a fantastic career. But Koeman, as a player, he joined in training sometimes, wouldn't he?

12:26Like on the side, he was brilliant, couldn't give the ball away. But he was really calm, I felt. and some of the training methods were a bit odd. In what way? We do the bleep test quite a bit with me. Yeah, it wasn't a bleep test to get to the highest level. It was just to get to a specific level. I found it difficult with Ronald because he almost demoted me. He thought I was captain and then I wasn't playing. So I found it tough. He obviously brought other people in. And as Wayne said, he was quite quiet. So if he's quite quiet and cold, I'm now a captain that still has to sort of help out in and around the place, but I'm not really getting much feedback or much direction.

13:06That's true. I've been in that situation with United. It was tough. And again, it's not because he was a bad person. That's just the way he was. When he was leaving, when things weren't going great, he actually opened up a bit more. And I was thinking, well, if you'd have had that sort of attitude for a bit longer, the whole club probably would have took him in a bit more. But that was just his dynamic and the way he spoke. But for me, yeah I'm I'm not saying I've got loads of negative things but for me it wasn't wasn't the best time of my Everton career when when he was in charge you said then you can understand I was the exact same when the year before United before I left when I was captain and weren't playing so that's it's so tough when you I remember sitting in the car like you're almost depressed aren't you and you're thinking you're going in you're not playing but you're captain so you've still got to you've always got to get out of the car and you know put an act on to lift your teammates Because you're trying to lift yourself, but then your job is to lift you.

14:02Yeah, it was such a difficult position to be in. So I know exactly how he was feeling on that. Okay, let's go on to, you've already mentioned Darby a couple of times, the transition of then playing under Wayne. That must have been mental. What did you call him, Gaffer or Wazza? Well, that was one of my first questions. Or something worse. That was one of my first questions. And he was like, I've known you long enough now, you can call him Wazza. I'm like, yeah, but it's weird. If we're in a session and I'm now treated as a normal player, I can't, if I've got a question or I have to literally call you gaffer.

14:38He's like, okay, it's fine. But he didn't demand. He didn't say, look, don't call me wazer. I don't care what any other players call me. Yeah, exactly. What did the players call you? To your face? It was mainly gaffer. Maybe some of the older players. Mainly gaffer, but I didn't. Where it was mad because I was the teammates. Yeah. Yeah. this day and then the manager the next day so that's where it was strange obviously with players but then when Jags come in and to be fair he'd done me a massive favour coming in as a couple others did as well I spoke to Jags and we were in administration going through a really difficult period so I asked him if he wanted to come down and for me obviously I knew him as a player I knew what he could bring as a player even though he was obviously a bit older with his experience and whatever and I knew it was all about just letting him manage himself really if you feel tired today I've been there as a player actually I was younger than I'm not at that age but just get some recovery you don't have to train, I just need you for the games and I didn't play every game up until January, you anchored it It was amazing for me because I wasn't ready to give up football but I'd not played week in, week out probably for two or three seasons I'd just spent two years at Sheffield where I was training hard.

15:57I was in pretty decent condition, but I'd not had the game after game. And I was looking to continue. But again, what was I 38, I think at the time? The phone doesn't ring much when you're 38. So obviously when Wayne said, I've got a situation like, do you want to come and do pre-season? Can't really do anything contractually. You have to just come and basically train for six to eight weeks. We'll see where we are then because this, this and this, there was obviously so much going on. And I was like, well, Derby from where I was, hour and a half fine and went there obviously started off really well and within probably a couple of weeks we went down to London didn't we where the rugby is we trained and he said look we're going to try our best to figure a deal out unfortunately that time we were only allowed to sign for six months because of the predicament the club was in but I was delighted I was delighted to be given an opportunity it was like probably like five or six of us a little bit younger than me but of similar where clubs were looking to give them an opportunity where Wayne needed that experience so he basically had three lads over 30 and the rest of him probably could have played in the under-21s.

16:58Some good players, but he had not much in the middle or at the top end. But I really enjoyed it. Obviously, Liam Rossini was there as well. So I knew it. I settled in really well. The young players were super respectful, enjoyed having us all around. And yeah, I was desperate to get started, which nearly didn't happen again because we'd agreed everything, didn't we? obviously I'm saying bring your agent to me to the toe and then once they get there I'm getting told that we can't do it so I was losing my head which you might be able to imagine so anyway I couldn't do it so I named the team on the Friday we played Huddersfield first game of the season so all these lads have gone so I was straight with them I was honest with them and said listen if you get an opportunity somewhere else just go and sign somewhere else which a couple of the lads did I said I'm not going to hold you back because they were all obviously in good shape because he'd done the full pre-season.

17:55So then I named the team on the Friday. We played Huddersfield, first game of the season. And my team was a bunch of kids. So I named the team. Then halfway through the training session, Curtis Davis ran out. He agreed, somehow did that. He'd been there a year before. So his was almost like the EFL allowed it to be like an extension, whereas the stipulation was you weren't allowed to sign anyone new. So you would have been like a new deal. Yeah, so again, I think that was a difference. So halfway through the game... What if you just signed as a player coach, was that? We looked at all sorts. So halfway through the training session, Curtis runs out, which they either did decide.

18:33What, so he'd literally been in the building and then ran out and joined in training? Yeah, because he... So then... Bear in mind, I'd already gone home in my bin bag of boots and drove home because I'm thinking, okay, that's it, we're undusted. So then I changed the team, put Curtis in the team. Oh, that poor person had to drop out. So then, anyway, we get to the game. so we played the game I've got Aaron Cashin and Liam Thompson both on the bench but they they actually didn't know at the time they couldn't come on so they were warm so I knew they didn't know I put them on the bench but I knew I couldn't bring them on legally to the EFL I couldn't bring them on so they didn't know so they're warm enough and I felt terrible so then in the end I got there is this the first time they're going to point out young lad who's 17 you know because obviously you had to put a squad list your squad list six days ago was hopeful of the signings whereas the signings couldn't happen so I had to get their parents in and explain the situation to them so the amount of different things which was going on was crazy but then eventually where's Phil at this point I'm at home watching Sky Sports news seeing how my early teammates are getting on obviously to be fair we do we win one no Curtis might have scored so then anyway a few weeks later I managed to get them in and in terms of what these do and come in for the money they were getting paid to come in I was always grateful anyway but come in so then I had the oldest centre half pair and I think in the history of the EFL a Jags who I think he just turned 39 I was just saying wait a minute ago so when I said people don't pick up their phones to 38 year olds my birth is August 17th and I think we played on something like the Tuesday it was like the 19th so literally I'd got a year older by the time he'd called me back so I didn't renegotiate my rubbish contract anyway because I was a year older but yeah and also then he signed and then the first thing I said to him is I want you I want you and Curtis to play push up play high play high line and they both looked at me like you kidding but it actually helped because playing the back line I have him keep a high so if anyone played in beyond the keeper would sweep up and I knew him and Curtis are both aggressive so and they were both brilliant

20:56What stressful time that was though like for your first trouble as well in management Yeah it was tough and do you know what I think the environment we created around the place was really good wasn't it It sounds so strange because if you'd have known half the carnage of literally like baths couldn't get filled up because someone had not played a water bill or you know like say the sign-ins like it was just and then there was a points deduction then there was a rumour of a big points deduction and then we just won and we got ourselves out of minus points about four times and then every time we got ourselves out it'd almost be a running joke because we'd come in and we'd have a team meeting and I'd just let you know lads we've been deducted another something so it was like we had the table I remember going into a meeting we had a table where it would have been where we would have been as a team if we'd not had a points deduction and we were in like 8th 9th position and bear in mind that is with a team of as I said before 19 and under lads basically lads that no one else wants and a couple of leftovers that were derby players where the contracts were sort of running out and every single player obviously probably not the older ones were available for transfer for literally peanuts so if anyone wanted them a£2 million midfielder at 21 was probably valued at£500 ,000 because it was going through all that and you took Shinny Shinny was doing really well for us Graeme Shinny and he just got to a half well a goalkeeper goalkeeper what's his name Scottish guy oh my gosh yeah and again he couldn't play because if he'd played it wouldn't mean he was available for free do you know there was just so much going on you still managed to get people playing like Ravel Morrison was really good to be honest the players were brilliant honestly and some of the quality of football we were playing was really good they were brave they would take the ball you know we were competing and why we were putting the league up of where we would be is we wanted a place to see actually you're some good players you're playing really good football I think we beat Bournemouth we beat Fulham we got most that year I think we gave about 15 debuts in that season as well to young lads and I wanted the lads to see actually what they have done what they've achieved and we got relegated against QPR I think we ended up on about 56 57 points or something and then we got relegated against QPR and we drove home and there was thousands of fans outside the training ground clapping the players in I said to the players take this in because it's rare that doesn't normally happen when you get relegated so for everyone it was a massive challenge but actually the environment we created around the training ground and the connection with the fans and everything was special it was actually enjoyable I think it was massive we were playing in front of full stadiums at Derby it was crazy I was there for six months people still like half thank you because I couldn't the next part of the journey was I can only sign for six months until Christmas then you couldn't stay could you we were loving we were buzzing and like I say we were still in with the hunt of potentially pulling off the miracle of staying up with all these points deductions but then whoever had signed for six months then the next stipulation was you can't you can't extend them so I'm I think it was a day before New Year's Day I'm supposed to play the next day he pulls me in the office says Jags we can't extend your contract.

24:16You're literally done. I lost you, I lost Shinny, Sam Baldock, Luke Plange, a young player who no one wanted, basically. I brought him in. Went to Palace, I think. Brought him in, played him as a striker. He'd done well, so they sold him without me knowing to Palace. Oh my. A million pounds. So you're driving into work every day going, what's going to go wrong today? You're probably wondering who's going to be there. it was a nice month it was one month where the transfer was open he was absolutely okay what I was saying to the club and to the administrators is what we'd done and got out of him up to that point was incredible really and he was doing really well and I was saying don't sell him for a million pound now wait till the end of the season you might get two or three million pound anyway I went to bed woke up and did sold him for a million and we got him back on loan but I was like as a business you shouldn't have it was things what went on but it was yeah it was tough but actually we made it enjoyable as well How was it for you because obviously you're trying to keep the morale high as well as one of the more experienced players when there's all these young players seeing you know where they are in the league how was that for you?

25:32I think it was as you said because the environment was so good I think everyone was accepting of like how how strange and weird we were basically relegated with the points that were taken off it was like nigh and impossible to do anything else but we were giving it a good crack we were having lads that were learning the trade when I got there obviously it was just after COVID some lads had not played in a stadium with anyone in so not only did you have so the lads that are really good for the rage have now basically played in an empty stadium so now flip that sorry flip that forward a month and a half now you're getting 20 ,000 people that's a new experience for them so for us at sort of the other end of the spectrum it was quite a nice role for us to help them sort of get through this but one big thing I'd say about Wayne especially when he was being the manager the amount of freedom that wasn't just careless freedom that he gave especially not just to the young lads some of the lads that were like 27, 28 you made him Lauren's captain I think that made him a better player he matured that season they were decisions where obviously Curtis who was captain the year before brought Jags in and these don't need I didn't want to be I'll be honest these don't need the armband on I know what he gives me I know what Curtis gives me I had this conversation with Curtis I spoke to Tom Lawrence in the summer I brought him to my house and I knew there was more in him so I said listen I'm going to put your captain you need to be an example to your teammates and I know there's more in you and I need you to give me more so I took it off Curtis but I had the conversation with Curtis you're still a leader you're still a captain you don't need the armband but for the team I'm doing it for the reasons to try and make Tom better which makes the team better and Tom was in a bit of an issue with the Diary fans anyway over what's happened a few years before and so the fans were a bit sceptical of it but then the whole place got behind I think you're perfect and again obviously me and Curtis as Captain Material may have been a wiser easier choice but as you said it takes one conversation it took us probably half a conversation I was actually I said look I don't want it I don't I've not earned it okay I might have earned it because I'm old but I've not come here and earned it but I will still do what I'm going to do and I said even with the younger lads, he would allow them to make a mistake and it's not a free ride to make a mistake, but how they, what they did after the mistake, which I presume would probably have been more in his psyche of like when he was coming through, would be the decision whether they'd stay on the pitch or not stay on the pitch.

27:58If you went into your shell, he'd bring you off. If you then made a better choice next time you got it, you would then play next week. It was so, you could see it as obviously as an older player. I just wanted all the players on the pitch really, don't be afraid to make a mistake. It happens. You need to take risks. But when he was saying it for me in the changing room, it wasn't that, right, do what you want. There's no repercussions. If you do something poorly and it ends up bad for the team, I'd like you not to do it again. But if it was the wrong decision, don't do it again. If it was the right decision, but there was a slight, say you just overhit a pass or whatever, but 100 % the right decision, do it next.

28:39time so I think that's why you look at the lads that went on obviously Knighty, Birdie quite a few of these lads have gone on to progress in their career play internationally in all sorts I do put it down to the environment not only with the players but obviously with the staff yourself Rosie that as long as you were making the correct decision if you didn't quite do it properly on the pitch it'd be absolutely fine it was just obviously it wasn't a free reign of help yourself. Talk to us about what Wayne was like as a manager then because you talked there about him kind of giving you ownership and recognising what players maybe need differently but what was it like firstly going from being alongside him to manager?

29:19It was hilarious I listened to his first team so I wasn't laughing out loud but it's funny to see that You're seeing it from a different lens aren't you? I'm sat in there obviously we've got pre-season away and stuff and he's going through what's going on and obviously I've heard many managers do different things and all sorts but it was just different to see Wayne stood up we're sat down going through things and and your team talks should go to different places yeah but I was I was quite I was psychologically get into the player's minds but I'm like I'm almost like this thinking about what's what's not what's Wayne going to do because I was I was waiting to see what he was doing and again we spoke about Rosa they work well together whereas obviously he was very quiet at this point in time where Wayne was doing a lot more of the talking but you could see everyone everyone's fixated what he had to say what he had to say was clear and I'm seeing the the next stepping stones of obviously Wayne being a manager calling him Wayne and he said that's the difference you see so I'm really enjoying it and again half time's a massive thing and some games are tougher than others but even the way especially he he would speak to certain players he maybe came at the older lads with a bit more aggression knowing that basically they'll be absolutely fine and if he sat next to a young lad really you want to shout at the young lad but the young lad might go inward so if you shout to the older one next to him he's thinking well if he's showing it in my best life there's certain aspects he was very very clever with it and I said you're allowed to make a mistake but it was always about what was the next step when they made the mistakes so yeah it was interesting even coaching sessions and turning up it always brought a smile to my face shall I say a smirk rather than a smile because like I said the person I knew that I was looking at was the teammate now not saying I would never be non-professional and stuff but it's like he said he was just everyone needs managing different and obviously a new Jags personality as well new Curtis's personality obviously play with with them as well and so I just tried to give give him what he needed and what brings the best out of him he would though he would I was travelling in I was doing all it'd give you the option of a day off or doing half a session all sorts I didn't need him to drive now and a half to do a a 20 minute bike ride but that's maybe because you have the trust in him and you knew him as a player.

31:33Yeah, no, so... But if I needed it and I needed to come in and he was having a, say, we're having a meeting to do tactically because games come thick and fast, I'd be like, no, no, I'll come in, Wayne. I'll tell you what, I'll probably stay over. We had an open adult conversation. It was never... Obviously, he's not going to test me by saying, have a day off, but if he has a day off, I'll tell you what, he's not going to play. It was never that one. It was basically... He didn't have enough players. What was the best for all of us? And again, that helps, like, some lads live close, some lads had to be in day in day out because that was their where I'd happily not have trained most days of the week and just played but what was his team talk like did he have like a big power point and like massive words on there and stuff like commitment no no it's not David Brent Ted Lasso no but yeah exactly but again my team talk would go to different places for whatever I felt so I never read a team talk down I've never read it was always like I was more seen as a captain you know you imagine what a captain would be saying before he went out he would be like in between the captain and the coach where he still had the emotions he knew what was needed and he knew he knew his players do you know like so again there was no pointing to things or making up random poetry or whatever it was basically what is needed for the day you feel you feel what the game is and what the players need and go from there brilliant how did the dynamic work then it's hard to enjoy football when you're in it it sounds stupid because you're so focused on the end goal the end goal the end goal realistically when I came to Derby the end goal had nearly been taken away from us because of what was so it was almost a free hit on the pitch but it was amusing to look to my left and then see Curtis at nearly left back and then seeing like Rocky or I think it left centre half but again it helped us we scored loads of goals through it and it helped us look at football a different way but yeah I was still learning I've not gone into coaching it's not something I've really looked into but if I ever do go into a backroom staff and all sorts these the memories of not only obviously up to that point but especially that point when I'm probably looking at it more from a coach's perspective will hopefully bode me in good stead whether it's to do it or not to do it let's bring it back around to the international stage then but let's talk England and the current state of kind of the England squad and the England defence how do you rate the options that England have at the moment Phil?

33:59Well I think if you look at the last couple of games it's tough the defence won't probably change that much I think the midfield ahead of it will probably differ quite a lot friendly games are always difficult I think the tournament Especially this this friendly game Well how they've done it how they've done it it's just I alluded to it's like when you're playing the Premier League and you play the team three or four games of the season, then the League Cup comes and you change. So you've technically got probably 11 internationals coming in or nine new players that are fresh, that are fit. They never seem to gel and play well.

34:33That's why there's so many Cup upsets. And I think, again, when you do the squad, I like what he's done to have a look at people in the environment and have an opportunity to play for England. But realistically, if I'm, for instance, I want to get in the England team and I want to play centre-half, I want to play alongside all the other starters because that's me in the right jigsaw piece, in the right puzzle. I think the only thing I'd say on it is the lads who've had the time off, the first week off, if I was then one of the players left in the squad, you're thinking, well, them lads are definitely going.

35:05So now it creates a pressure where I think at this stage, I like what Tuchel's done, but I still think at this stage, he should be having question marks on one or two players. and it seems like it's still time to figure out what the rest of the squad 10 players Right so yeah there is a norm in and art but again we have the problem especially now we've got such a good such a big pool of players that are playing at a very similar level it's you know when you flick through social media it says England A team England B team England C team you can literally put four teams out and they would all do well enough at a World Cup so it's a tough a tough decision decisions him to make but I do think he'll call it and I think some of the players that are in the squad will make it I do I think probably Ollie Watkins makes it he's been injured he's probably struggled a little bit this season but he's had him there before and I think I think for me I think you asked about the centre-backs I think there's an issue with centre-back and there's an issue in midfield I think you've got Anderson who I think is a fantastic player he's fighting a relegation battle you've got Wharton who's not done so well at Palace this year Declan Rice is obviously you've got a shoe in there obviously so he'll play so he'll come back and done well so I think there's an issue in midfield the balance in midfield it's very attack heavy the sport is all the qualities at the top end defensively I think Harry Maguire has to go in my opinion I think we saw his experience didn't we I just think he has to go I think I think even a fullback we speak about Rhys James obviously a fantastic player Trent not to be in that squad Ben White to be playing I've no disrespect to Ben White I think he's a really good player but for him to be in the squad and play ahead of Trent, I just...

36:51I'm smiling. I think he probably still makes the squad. Trent. Yeah, yeah. Like, as much as we like to, like, overplay why he's not in and whatnot, the fact of the matter is Rhys James may be fit, may not be fit. He's fantastic at fullback. But the fact of the matter is if he gets two yellow cards and we need to play something, like, who... But he's unreliable. Yeah, yeah. He's a fantastic player, but he's unreliable. I know Trent had his injury sport. Well, especially if Real Madrid do really well like in the Champions League or whatever there's still quite a long left of the season and for me you take your best player okay in football tournament football you can play the same 11 players for the four games if you get fortunate but that's never never a given timing games you need to change you need to change formations you need to change this and that so you need to have your best players be able to come on we've got players if you look at that squad that you would take that would do a job is that what we're looking is that what we're looking to do in a tournament or are you going to say like for like there's not much between them and I think with Trent if he proves he can play half as well as he played for most of his time at Liverpool he's definitely worth taking on the plane centre half yeah again you want a partnership and it didn't look it doesn't look like we've got one just yet people probably want Stones to not be injured but the fact of the matter is he's not playing at Man City he's not playing at all he's only lying again would he make your starting 11 as an England player yeah the top top form John Stones not at this moment of time yeah unfortunately and again even Gay he's gone to Man City they're playing a different type of football and stuff now they didn't look quite as rock solid it's just you can either really overanalyse the games or forget about them and just look forward to the World Cup and see what happens okay I'll put you on the spot then if you had to pick a starting XI tomorrow for England's opening game who would your defence be I'm not going to make you do the whole team well if Rhys James is fit you put him in

38:43yeah yeah but again it's the O 'Reilly Hall debate isn't it I really really enjoy watching O 'Reilly but again you watch the other night he gets cut out defensively because he probably doesn't have he doesn't get asked to play he doesn't really get asked to play left back when he's at left back at Man City that's that sound I'll give you my I'll go Rich James Gahey Harry Maguire and Luke Shaw but again it wouldn't surprise me if Luke made the squad again because all he's got to do is stay fit and he he's not on trail he's not on trail he's got to stay fit and either the manager likes him or doesn't like him we don't need our full backs to be the most attacking we need them to defend we've got we've got ability we've got quality at the top end of the pitch defend we don't need them to be running forward and bottom forward keep the balance and let the attacking players win you the games and that's where I think Luke Shaw he can't do it as much now but what he can do is defend that's where that's so I don't have to answer the question yesterday no you do I'm coming to you but could that be part of Tuchel's thinking when it comes to Trent then if you just want the really defensively minded full backs maybe but Rhys James isn't the most defensive and I have everyone keen to talk about this and he's right in terms of the lads who were in there you wouldn't say they're the best defensively anyway all of them and I listened to him and told him no he's actually got a really good point Wayne's bought you a bit of time then what's he back for I'd probably stick with Conce and Gai in the middle and probably go O 'Reilly at this moment in time but there's literally nothing between him It's harsh on Lewis Hall, isn't it?

40:14Yeah, but again, when I watch the game, I don't know if it's maybe because I've not seen him play much in an England shirt. It just looks new in there. But again, you only get that by playing. But there's all sorts of different types of games. The Heat, we're going to have stoppages in play in there because of the water break and stuff. So I think this tournament itself will be slightly different. There'll be stoppages for the Lightning as well. Okay, but it's a tough one. Yeah. Thankfully, I'm not the England manager. Phil, thank you for coming on. What does life look like for you these days then, if you're not coaching?

40:42a tiny little bit of punditry not as much as obviously Wayne I've got a little YouTube channel me and Stephen Fletcher who I played with Stoke are playing golf so we've just got an excuse now to basically go around the world filming and play golf it's my advice that's why I need to see if you're still golfing but if you're handicapped what it was last time I don't fancy getting beat off you to be perfectly honest it's gone down has it? up see that's what I'm working with we'll leave you to arrange that golf a reminder as always you can watch the Wayne Rooney show on the BBC Sport YouTube or iPlayer or you can listen on BBC Sounds.

41:13We'll see you next time. Fuck. Five Live Sports. BBC Women's Football Weekly. The latest news, insights and analysis from across the women's game. Game, game. Dame Serena Vigman, welcome to the... Are we including Dame in your title now? You know how much an honour that is. And it's remarkable team! And it's remarkable women! We want to play in a way that they can show their skills. So that's what we're trying to do. Win the World Cup. It's a dream. Listen. With the BBC Sounds app.