Cynthia Erivo

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0:30Welcome to This Cultural Life, the series in which the world's leading artistic figures choose the most important influences and experiences that have inspired their own creative lives. I'm John Wilson, and my guest in this episode is the actor and singer Cynthia Erivo. Having made her name with musical theatre in London, in 2015 she became a Broadway star and won Tony, Emmy and Grammy Awards for her role in The Colour Purple, the musical adaptation of the Alice Walker novel. Her screen acting credits include the title role in Harriet, about the 19th century abolitionist and campaigner Harriet Tubman, a film which earned her two Academy Award nominations.

1:09And she's just been nominated for another Best Actress Oscar for her starring role in the hit film musical Wicked. I think I'll try defying gravity And you can't pull me down Cynthia Erivo, welcome to This Cultural Life. Thank you very much, thank you. I read that your mum said once that you were singing before you could talk. That's right, yeah. Were you always aware you had a beautiful singing voice? I think it took me a second to realise that I could sing. My mum says I was singing when I was a baby and definitely when I was around two, but I can't remember that far back. I think I realised that I could make a sound that was pleasurable when I was 11.

1:54And singing along to the radio? What would have been happening in early 90s, I'm guessing? Early 90s? So I was listening to Magic FM, old school, 90s. So I'm listening to everything from Spandau Ballet, Kate Bush, Annie Lennox, then Aretha Franklin, Patti LaBelle and Mary J. Blige. But because I was a 90s kid, I had lots of R &B influences as well. So Brandy, Monica, all those.

2:29You were born and raised in South London. Both your parents were Nigerian. What are your earliest memories of home life? We had a good time. I was very well with my mum in Stockwell and I remember feeling like we lived in a little masonette so our neighbours felt like family as well. When my mum had to go to work I would stay with a neighbour. What did your mum do? At first she was cleaning houses and then she studied at King's College and became a nurse and then she moved on to being a health visitor. Like an antenatal health visitor. Yeah, that's right. She was visiting mothers-to-be. Mothers who had just had their babies.

3:02Oh, right, okay. Postnatal, yeah. Postnatal. And your dad had left the family, I think, early on, but then I think at about 16 he told you that he didn't want any contact with you at all. That's right, yeah. With the whole family. Yeah, he told it to me and then that sort of maintained just for my little family there. And I had the choice. My mum was really good about making sure that we still had sort of a relationship with our dad when we were quite young, and then the choice was his in the end to end that. What impact did that have on you, do you think? I think it made me quite angry when I was a teenager, and I think I sought out a way to prove that I was lovable, that I was good enough to be loved, and so some of my determination was about proving myself.

3:50but I think over time I've had to change what that is because it doesn't sustain. So I've found ways to love what I do for me and love what I do for, what it can do for other people and how other people can be inspired by it, you know. And honestly, the joy in my mum's face is really quite something when she's enjoying what's happening. And this is one of those moments, yeah.

4:23On This Cultural Life, Cynthia Erivo, my guests choose the most important influences and experiences that have inspired their own creative lives. And your first choice for this programme is a teacher at your school, La Retraite, Roman Catholic Girls School in South London. Tell me about your drama teacher, Helen Rycroft. How did she encourage you? Helen Rycroft. So she was the resident music teacher and she sort of spotted what I could do and the potential that I had really early. So when I first got there, I started playing the clarinet, but she sort of recruited me to come in and play more. Whatever I wanted to try was open to me.

5:00And I don't think that was the norm, but she just wanted to make sure that my taste for wanting music and singing and performing was always fed. And this is secondary school, so you're talking from year seven? From year seven to sixth form, really. We'd always set up a choir and she would always give me a solo and it was always a classical piece of music. I would have lessons with her and only her, even though there were many students, but she would always take me for a lesson and we would learn about Schubert Lieder or we'd learn about Handel or we'd learn about Beethoven. It was always something to just enhance my knowledge of music.

5:40Was there a particular moment that you remember that drew you towards performance at a young age? I don't know if it was a particular moment. I think it's sort of like a succession of different things that moved me in that direction. But you knew you wanted to perform from a young age. Yeah, yeah, definitely. I kept finding ways to do it. There was an interesting sort of like after-school troupe that came to pick kids to be a part of their summer programme and they picked me and we did, which is insane, a musical version of the Caucasian Chalk Circle and I played the Queen. and I just remember having the best time and all we had was this sort of blank room with no scenery and sheets for a robe and a makeshift crown and the ability to imagine and create out of nothing was so cool.

6:31I was like, we can do this with nothing and adjust our imaginations and I can be whoever I want to be. Like magic, isn't it? Yeah, that just, it was so thrilling. So it was really exhilarating for me. I remember the feeling to this day, and that's still something I chase and look for, and it's something that still happens, you know? Yeah.

6:55And in an email that you sent to us, you mentioned a particular formative moment around this time when you were singing a requiem by the British composer John Rutter. That's right. Why was the Rutter requiem so important to you in particular? It just seems to have stuck to the sides. It's one of those moments that I cannot get out of my head, that I go back to often. And I listen to the Rattlet Requiem now because it reminds me of a really wonderful moment that I experienced.

7:29Pia Yesu was my solo. And I just remember feeling really good about myself to be able to sing something like that. I still remember the sound of all of the voices together.

7:45Our school would join up with an adult choir and we'd have a full orchestra playing with us. And to know that music can do that, that's the first time I experienced a full choir with a full orchestra.

8:06Did you ever consider at a young age that classical music might be the root, or even opera? I think I did, because that's what I was learning. And sometimes there's part of me that's daring enough to be like, do I try a piece of classical music? I don't know, maybe. You know the repertoire? What would stop you? I don't know, I think maybe people, because I know that people don't necessarily expect that of me, I haven't done it. But it's there, and it has been for a long time. Operators have definitely been things that I love. And when I went to drama school, that's what I was singing with my singing teacher.

8:42That's what I would do. We would do, I remember we did Salce Salce from Othello. And even when I was on stage on Broadway, my singing teacher we would do, it was classical music, because it's the one thing that, for me, keeps my voice really healthy, singing that way. So maybe one day I'll do it publicly. Lara Trait was Catholic school. So was church a big part of your cultural upbringing? Yeah. Yeah, we went to church every Sunday. At Christmas time, we'd do the midnight mass. Were you singing in church? I did. I mean, as a solo performer or just part of the congregation? Sometimes as a solo performer.

9:18And then when we moved to East London, I ended up being the choir mistress. I took over the choir. And led the choir for a little bit, yeah. I think I was just always searching for ways to do music. You played Aretha Franklin in 2021 in that National Geographic television biopic. Aretha famously started singing in church and her gospel roots never left her music. Could you relate to that in any way? Or was your church upbringing a very different experience? My church upbringing is very different. The Catholic Church is very traditional. but I think I kept trying to infuse pieces of gospel within the repertoire of the music that we would be singing at church but I think when you're encouraged to sing in church that is something that doesn't leave you because it feels like you're always singing for the right reasons and then you can share that with everybody else.

10:10My doctor said, take it easy Oh, but your loving isn't much too strong I made it to you

10:22And when you played Aretha in that biopic series, how do you approach the job of singing Aretha, not just the drama of her life? It's actually inhabiting her vocal range, which is so distinctive. Was it an impersonation or were you... I mean, how did you go about studying? So I think what people don't realise about Aretha is that she's a brilliant technician and I would just study how she would use her voice. so that you would pick up certain habits and then start placing them within the songs that you hear. I didn't want to do an imitation because that then becomes sort of devoid of emotion and heart.

11:01Impersonations are fun, but when you have to sustain over a series, you have to learn the person. So you learn what makes her tick and how she has slightly sibilant S's and how she's less open than you realise. And then when she opens up, it's much bigger than you can sort of describe. when she sings opera, she did that wonderful version on the Grammys. Vinger, Vinger. Oh, Nessun Dorma. Nessun Dorma, that's it. Nessun Dorma

11:37Nessun Dorma She did a version of Nessun Dorma and that voice quality is very different from the quality that she uses for Rocksteady, you know.

11:58And also, as she ages, her vocal quality slightly changes as well. It actually becomes way more open, becomes broader, bigger. And when she's younger, it's slightly more reserved.

12:15But today I'm singing the blue I love the technical side of singing, the study of it, because I think once you get a handle of that, you can then really play.

12:40Well, of course, in 2022, you starred in a whole BBC proms concert featuring the work of your favourite singers, including Aretha Franklin and Etta James and Nina Simone.

13:05You're mine.

13:17And as you were sort of referencing when we were talking about Aretha there, it's about marrying attitude with technique. Does the technique come very easily? Can you adapt your voice very easily? Yes, for me it does. I'm lucky and I'm also curious. so I've been learning and practicing and exploring my voice for a very very long time because I want to see what else it can do and and so when you're singing on stage in front of an orchestra that is more about the attitude and the storytelling from song to song whereas if you're in a show and you're playing a character it's more about the journey of that character from the beginning to the end which has to grow and has to change they can't be where they are at the end at the beginning you know That's the distance between when you're singing on stage as you.

14:01It's my interpretation, Cynthia's interpretations of a song. What does it mean to her? And I say playing Cynthia because there's me, but there's also whoever the character is in that song. Right. You know? When I sing I Who Have Nothing, that's a different version of Cynthia who sings Nume Kitipa. They're both heartbroken in very different ways. One is determined and one is letting it go. I will offer you peace and rain Come from peace and we will not I will die until after my death I will offer you again A light and light I will offer tomorrow Love is a law Love is a law Where you will be a reine Don't leave me Don't leave me

15:02You attended extracurricular drama classes and it was there that you met another great mentor of yours, Ray McKen. Who is she? How did she take you to the next stage of your development? I met her originally when I was 15 and the Young Vic, and I don't know if they still do this, I hope they do, they would do youth companies that would take on a version of whatever was on in the main house. So I went to an audition with a friend. They were going to do Romeo and Juliet. I was there to support my friend. How old were you? I was 15. But you'd already started drama classes at school. You were already interested in drama.

15:41I was already interested in drama, but I didn't know that this was happening, so I wasn't prepared for it and I just sort of went. and Ray saw me and said well why don't you audition as well then you're here you might as well so I said okay I'll try and ended up playing Juliet in this youth company and so I don't know if I bit off more than I could chew or just fell into it and then after that I didn't see her for a very long time and I sign up to a young actors company at the Stratford Theatre Royal and on the First day, I go into the foyer and Ray walks in. And I go, what are you doing here?

16:20She said, well, I'm teaching the Young Actors Company. I said, oh, my goodness. She goes, but I love that you're doing this, but I think you should train. And I didn't know what she meant by train. I said, train what? She said, well, I think you should go to drama school. She meant formal training. She meant formal training. I said, they have drama schools? How do I do that? Well, you didn't even know about the concept of drama school. I didn't know. No, I didn't. I had no idea that you could go to a drama school to formalise your training as an actor. I had no idea. She said, well, yes, I do think you should apply for RADA.

16:53I said, what's RADA? She said, well, the Royal Academy of Dramatic Arts. I said, no. I'm not going to apply for a place that's called the Royal Academy of Dramatic Arts. I'm not going to get in. She said, well, then you can't do this class. So she said you apply or you're not coming. So she forced you to apply. Yeah, I said, fine, I'll apply. Not thinking I would get in, but the immediate was what I wanted. I wanted to go to this class and I didn't want to be stopped from doing that. So I applied for RADA and she helped me whilst we were doing this youngster's company with the auditions, with the speeches.

17:30So the application was accepted, you then get an audition, which is a very rigorous process. Yes. Very hard to get into RADA. There are four stages before acceptance. You have to do Shakespeare as well, don't you? Yes. You have to do one Shakespeare piece or something or one contemporary piece? I did two Shakespeare speeches and one contemporary speech. Had you done Shakespeare at school? Were you familiar with the language? I was familiar with it, but not familiar with the language because we hadn't really done Shakespeare at school. This was really the first time that I'd gotten my teeth stuck into it, and I got in.

17:57You haven't done Shakespeare professionally in the years since, have you? I have not, no. Why not? I don't know. I would love to. You're open to offers. Completely. Let's just put that out there. Very, very much so, yeah. A particular role that you would play on the stage or on the screen? I would love to play Emilia or Cleopatra. Right. Yeah. It's been a while since we've seen Cleopatra. Yeah. Yeah. OK, well, that's out there now. Thank you. Yeah. How did it feel to get into drama school when you were accepted? What was the experience like of being there? I was in a slight disbelief. I remember I got a call.

18:35They would call you and say, hey, we just want to let you know that you have been successful and we'd love to offer you a place. and I said, are you sure? I remember I asked him, it was the first thing that came out of my mouth, are you sure? He said, yes. And I hadn't told my mum that I had auditioned. So when I auditioned, I had quit university to do this young actors company and I hadn't told my mum and I didn't tell her that I was auditioning for Radha and I didn't want to tell her because I didn't want to, if I didn't get in then I didn't have to tell her. But then I did, so I had to tell her.

19:10What did she say? She said, I wish she'd have told me because I would have helped. Last year you were appointed vice president of RADA. Yeah. David Harewood is the new president. That's right, yeah. Having succeeded Kenneth Branagh. Yeah. What are the main challenges facing the school? I think it's about trying to make sure that the building blocks see them through to the very end. So what I've been doing for the last sort of few years, I want to say five or six years, is going in and teaching the third year. We call it performance through song. it's using emotion it's using immediacy it's using personal experiences because music is so vulnerable when you sing it's very hard to lie you force them to be really vulnerable and open so I love going in and teaching that and I've been doing that for a while and what I've wanted to do is make sure that they are having a path from drama school at the very beginning to their third year and out into the working world and making sure that students that know that they're stepping into a business as well, not just a passion project.

20:12You're giving back what you received in Helen Rycroft and Ray McKenna. You had people who spotted your potential, who encouraged you, who pushed you. How much has changed in terms of opportunities and accessibility for young working class performers since your time at drama school? I think it's changed a lot. I think I had a lot less opportunity. I had to fight a lot more for it. I don't think it's perfect now, but I do think that the range is wider. There's more opportunities to be seen. Despite music and drama slipping its way off the curriculum in state schools. Which is devastating because it's such a beautiful way of learning.

20:53And for students who don't learn the same way as every other student, whose way of learning is very different, music and drama are often the ways in. That's sad. I think sometimes we discount how important drama and music can be for students. So Radha is still really important for you. You're coming back and you're serving as vice president. But you live in L.A. now, don't you? I do, yeah. Do you reflect on the fact that you are arguably a much bigger star in America than you are in Britain? Sometimes, but there's nothing that I can do to control that other than keep working. Why do you think that is?

21:28I mean, I can only do the work that I get, you know, and I haven't necessarily done a lot of work in the UK. I wish I could and I'm always open to it, but if the opportunity doesn't knock, then I can't be at the door. After graduating, you had stage roles in The Umbrellas of Cherbourg, in The West End, and then you toured the UK in the production of Sister Act, playing Sister Mary Clarence, which was the role that was taken by Whoopi Goldberg in the film version. But, of course, the big break came with another role that was made famous by Whoopi. That's right, yeah. You played Celie in The Colour Purple.

22:03That's right. Like the colour purple Where do it come from Now my eyes are open Look what God has done It's in the grain of love It's in the mighty tree It started off at the Meniere Chocolate Factory and that transferred in 2014 to New York. Tell me, what does a Broadway debut feel like? Crazy. Really wild. I was definitely a fish out of water. To go from a theatre that held 200 people, where people are this close to you, to a theatre that's now in Cross Arch and there are a thousand people is very, very different. But the intimacy is still there. How many of the cast transferred with you? No one, it was just me.

22:57So that was an adjustment because it meant that I had to learn people again. But once I was able to do that, it was one of the most incredible experiences I have ever had. People wanted to see this story and I got to know so many incredible artists all at once. It's just, it was awesome.