Lily Allen

0:00BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts.

0:11Welcome to This Cultural Life, the series in which leading creative figures reveal the most significant influences and experiences that inspired their own work. I'm John Wilson and my guest in this episode is the singer-songwriter and actor Lily Allen, renowned for the autobiographical candor of her lyrics. Lily has sung about the pitfalls of fame, drugs, broken relationships and motherhood. She was nominated for a Grammy Award for her debut album All Right Still and in 2010, after the release of It's Not Me, It's You, won a Brit Award and three Ivor Novello Awards, including for Songwriter of the Year.

0:48In 2021, she embarked on a stage acting career, starring in 2.22 A Ghost Story, for which she was nominated for an Olivier Award. More recently, with her childhood friend, Makita Oliver, she launched her BBC podcast series, Miss Me. Lily Allen, welcome to This Cultural Life. Hello. You were born in London in 1985, the daughter of people who worked in the creative industries. For those who don't know, just tell us about your parents. Well, my mother is called Alison Owen and she is a film producer. She is an extraordinary woman, actually. She had my sister when she was 17, moved up from Portsmouth and then went to UCL here in London.

1:34She had three kids by the time she was 24. And she was a single mother. My dad left when I was four years old. So she's done amazing things under some quite complicated circumstances. And your dad? And my dad is Keith Allen and he is an actor, comedian and, you know, writes the odd football song.

2:04And, yeah, he's my dad. You say he left when you were four. When I was four years old, yeah. Do you have memories of all of you together? The only memory I have of us all together is when he left, actually. The day that he left. I remember us all kind of being in a hallway of the flat that we lived in, in Bloomsbury and my mum saying you know dad's going I remember thinking do we get a new dad I didn't he's saying my dad but yeah that was that was the only time I can sort of visualize all four of us together I remember him sort of being there I remember we only had one bathroom one toilet in that flat so I remember on a Sunday my dad would get Sunday papers and he'd lock himself in the toilet no one could use the bathroom all day yeah that's my early memories of dad living with us and how would you describe home life as a child I mean it's it's complicated it wasn't you know traditional in any sense of the word you know my mom was bringing up three children single-handedly and she didn't come from money you know so she had to do it all on her own and it meant that she wasn't there that much you know so I don't really have much memory of her in my childhood at all.

3:23I kind of, I mean, she used to travel a lot. She'd go to America and stuff. So I sort of remember her, the anticipation of her coming back. And who was looking after you at the time then? Your dad? No, nannies. Yeah, we have like au pairs. They were sort of students kind of passing through. Did you spend much time with your mum on film sets? Or was that just her? Was that a totally different life for her? She did a film called Rosanna's Grave, which was shot in Italy. And I remember going to that for a bit. She did a film called Hear My Song in Ireland and we moved over to this little town called Leakslip and went to school there for a few months.

3:59But not on set. You know, film sets are not really very child-friendly places. You know, children make quite a lot of noise. But because they were in the creative industries, was there any idea at a young age that you would follow into that sort of world, do you think? No, not really. I'm actually quite a shy person, So the idea of standing in front of a camera and being vulnerable like that felt really intimidating. So at that early age anyway, I didn't think this is what I want to do.

4:32On This Cultural Life, Lily Allen, my guests choose the influences and the experiences that had the biggest impact on their own creativity. And your first choice for this programme is the song Baby Mine, which is from the 1941 Disney movie Dumbo. Baby mine, don't you cry

4:56Baby mine, dry your eyes Rest your head close to my heart Never to part, baby of mine So why this one? Well, I was at a school in Camden and my mum was away. She'd gone away for a long period of time and I think that everyone in the school kind of knew that I was struggling. And I was in the playground listening to Oasis, I think it was, Wonderwall, on my Walkman. And this teacher of mine called Rachel Santesso, who was Canadian and really young, and she walked by and heard me singing along with it. and she said, you know, you've got a beautiful singing voice, why don't we do some lessons together?

5:47And so we did and we prepared this song called Baby Mine, which is the song that the mummy elephant sings to Dumbo in the film Dumbo and we worked on it for a while and I sang it in a sort of, you know, parents concert and it completely brought the house down. It was, you know, people were really, really moved by it and I'd felt pretty invisible up until that point And it was the first time, so I'm actually getting a bit emotional talking about it. It was the first time where I felt like I could be seen, you know, and affect people. You know, it was a very powerful moment for me. And I really liked it.

6:28I was like, wow, I can move people and I can do something powerful. I can change people's emotions with something. And, you know, from that moment onwards, I was like, okay, this is the thing that I want to work on and develop. So what was the response in the room? You were aware that people were moved by your voice? Yeah, I think it was because it had meaning. It wasn't like I was just getting up and singing like a love song. It was specific to what I was experiencing at the time, which was that my mum was away and I was staying. I think there was even like a conversation about me maybe going and moving in with the headmistress for a bit.

7:07Like it was, you know, it was a really tough time. So, sorry, how old were you? About ten? I think I would have been about, yeah, nine or ten. It was primary school and it was a very small school so I think everybody was aware that, you know, I was this sort of child that was going through something quite complicated and then, you know, I stood up and sang this song that was very meaningful and people were moved by it. Well, it's a really loaded choice of a song, isn't it? Yeah, I don't think I chose it. I didn't know what it was plus I think maybe Rachel knew what she was doing. Had you seen Dumbo?

7:41You must have seen... Yeah, yeah, I'd seen Dumbo, but I... You didn't register that scene. When you think about it, Dumbo has been separated from his mother who is in a cage, chained. I think there's a sign on the wall that says Mad Elephant and he's reaching in with his trunk and, you know, they're sort of touching and having this moment, but then it cuts away and you see all the other animals in the circus all cuddled up with their mothers. I mean incredibly poignant for you to be singing that song It really was Did you feel emotional singing the song or did you feel happiness because it had a sort of a tangible effect on the people that were listening to it?

8:19No it was definitely to do with being in front of an audience and realising that I could change the atmosphere with what I was doing and that made me feel powerful at a time in my life when I felt completely invisible and also it was positive because I think you know I felt like I was a problem really because nobody knew what to do with me or where I was going to go so I think for the first or you know in this particularly difficult period of time when I'd felt like a nuisance and something that needed kind of sorting out was was an inconvenience to people suddenly I was like there was a reason for me.

8:57And this was a performance for parents? Yeah, I think so. But your parents weren't there? I mean, my mum says that she was. I don't remember her being there. But you know, she does. She says that she remembers it. So I would say that she was there. Maybe she came back for it. I don't know. What lasting effect do you think did that evening have on the rest of your schooling? Well, it became, you know, that was like my thing at school from that point onwards. So where I'd been like overlooked in school plays and things up until that point suddenly I was in the running for lead parts and you know I think I went up for scholarships and things for different places on the basis of my singing so it became my calling card.

9:39It was a step up in terms of education. I've read though that you went to 13 different schools. I think roughly yeah. And you were expelled from quite a few of them. I think so. You think so? I mean I definitely was asked to leave a few. What was going on looking back now and having the perspective? I just didn't really understand the point of it. I think maybe because I'd been in the creative industries and it didn't really seem like you needed an education to do those things. And I've been diagnosed in adulthood as having ADHD. I know lots of people have and people sort of slightly roll their eyes at it now.

10:21but I still find it really really hard to concentrate and to focus on things and so I found school a real struggle I had one teacher this guy called Alistair Langland at B-Dales which I was at for a couple of terms before I was asked to leave but he taught classical studies in English and he was the first teacher that really captivated me because he had a completely different style of teaching and it really made sense to me but apart from that yeah I wasn't interested B-Dales though, that's, I mean, it's prestigious. Yeah. Private school, isn't it? And you were there only for a couple of terms?

10:58A couple, two terms, yeah. And you were asked to leave, why? I think it was something to do with Glastonbury. I sort of remember running away and going to Glastonbury. We had asked the school permission for me to go early and leave early and go to the festival. And they were like, no, don't be ridiculous. and I just ran away and went anyway. But Glastonbury, you'd sort of been brought up at Glastonbury, hadn't you? I mean, you'd been going there since you were a baby. Yes, I mean, I sort of make a joke about it, but I'm more likely to see all my family members at that festival than I am at Christmas dinner, you know?

11:35So that's where we sort of congregated. Well, your father always famously had a sort of encampment there, didn't he? He was quite an attraction. He had his own field in a way. Yeah, he did. And it was always, I mean, I didn't know it at the time because I was so young, but the people that were there were really amazingly, you know, important people culturally. We'd sort of share a camp with Joe Stromer and other members of The Clash and Damien Hirst would always be there and the Happy Mondays and some of the Stone Roses would drop by. You know, it was exciting. Yeah, it was raucous, but it was exciting.

12:13that moment of singing baby mine from dumbo at the age of 10 or 11 that was your first moment in the spotlight when did you first start writing your own songs do you think i know exactly when it was because i had a manager called george lamb he was a tv presenter and i think he's done some stuff on radio as well we'd met in ibiza one summer and he managed a band called the audio bullies and he said you know i think i maybe i'd given him a demo of like me singing cover versions because that's all I did up until that point. And he said, would you be up for me managing you? And I said, yeah, that'd be absolutely brilliant.

12:45And he said, well, you're going to have to write songs, otherwise there's no point in us doing this. And I was like, OK, OK, I guess I'll have to start writing songs. And he sent me up to Manchester to work with these guys called Darren and Tunde. And I wrote, I think, Smile, which was my first big single, certainly the first thing that went to number one, was the first song I ever wrote.

13:19The first song you ever wrote? Can you remember writing it? Yeah. It was about, you know, an ex-boyfriend of mine. And I was so nervous. And I sort of remember we'd been building this backing track and finding the samples. and then I was writing the verses with just my pen and a notepad and I just didn't know what I was doing and I just thought of the first big song that came into my head which was Hit Me Baby One More Time by Britney Spears and I just kind of followed that tempo. I changed the melody but in terms of the speed at which the top line melody went it was that or it originated from that.

14:01and then they said okay we've got a verse and chorus we need a middle eight now and I ran out of the studio and went and called George and I said they've said that I need to write a middle eight what's a middle eight and he said oh it's just a bit it's not the verse and it's not the chorus and it sort of connects the two it's like a breakdown in the middle and I was like okay and so I went back in and I just went la la la la la la and that was the middle eight

14:34and it went to number one it did i mean it's funny because i you know i was signed to parlophone i had a deal and um so quite soon after that i started putting the things up on myspace and the record company certainly had songs like smile and ldn and whatever else i'd written up until that point but they weren't they definitely weren't convinced that these were songs that were going to make it onto an album i was very much in development um and these were the first people that i'd ever worked with so they were just like you know well thank you very much that's great let's you know keep going then a single will reveal itself at some point hopefully and then i put my songs up on myspace and they just took on a life of their own and then the observer Music Monthly, RIP, got in contact with them and said, we'd like to put your artist Lily Allen on the cover.

15:25And they said, we don't know who that is. And they ran down to the A &R department and said, have we got someone called Lily Allen on our books? And they said, yeah. I said, well, the Observer want to put her on the cover this weekend. They want to do a photo shoot. And the rest was history. Interesting. You talk about MySpace, largely forgotten now in the era of Spotify and Apple music. What did that platform offer you as an emerging artist, do you think? It just seemed like this new world where, you know, up until that point, I guess artists had always been looking for publications like the NME or Melody Maker or whoever else to feature them.

16:03And that was how they would get their point across to their fans. But this just took all of that away. MySpace. Yeah, MySpace took the power away. It's a streaming platform in which you had direct access, I guess, to your fans. You could upload your songs onto there. And this was before record companies understood about, you know, the internet. I mean, now it's only the internet. But it was, you know, they were still very much focused on CDs and vinyl at that point. And then also it gave you the opportunity to put updates, blog updates. And so I would take photos and upload them onto there and accompany them with like little blurbs about what I was doing or reacting to things that were happening in the world and talking about them.

16:44and slagging people off. I did quite a lot of that. It was, I think people found it really refreshing because there wasn't that middleman. It was a direct dialogue with your fan base. But you were singing about the sort of things that the people that were listening to you were also doing. That was the point, wasn't it? That you were kind of just sort of singing about young lives. Yes, I mean, you know, when I wrote those songs, I didn't have an audience, right? So I wasn't writing for anyone other than myself. And I didn't play musical instruments well enough to, for me to come up with backing tracks or chord progressions.

17:16So I was very heavily reliant on the producers and the people that I was working with. But I felt like the thing that I was good at was taking things that I had observed, whether it was relationships in my own life or things that were happening in the world around me, and vocalising them in a song. And so that's what I did. I was just being me.

17:40Your next choice for This Cultural Life is the 1979 single by Squeeze, Up the Junction. This was released five years before you were born. So would you have heard it growing up as a child or later? No, I don't think so. I can't remember where I first heard it, but I definitely remember revisiting it when I got home and once I had heard it. There was just something about it that I guess maybe because it was written or released five years before I was born, it really made me think of my mum, who was going through a similar experience at the time that it was written, which was when she was pregnant with my sister and coming to London.

18:28And it just felt real. Just describe the song and the scenario that's played out. Well, it's about a couple that he sees her, they meet up and they fall in love and she has a baby. she gets knocked up and it's a love story, you know. But I guess maybe it was a bit of a fantasy. My parents' marriage didn't end very well and it seemed like a happy song that I could rewrite my parents' history.

19:04Does that make sense? Yeah, but the song doesn't end well either though. No, but... The guy is left alone by the woman who has had the baby and then leaves him. But it feels upbeat and happy, though, the song. Musically. Yes. Which is kind of what you were doing in all of your stuff as well, with London in particular. Exactly. There was a little old lady who was walking down the road She was struggling with bags from Tesco There were people from the city having lunch in the park I believe that is called al fresco When a kid came along to offer a hand But before she had time to accept it Hits her over the head Doesn't care if she's dead Because he's got all I jewelry and wallet And Up The Junction is very much a London song.

19:47It's like a kitchen sink drama. It's a kitchen sink pop song, isn't it? So do you think it was the storytelling aspect that appealed as well? Yes. The reason that I sort of chose it was because it feels very real. It's not just like trying to explain the feeling of love. It's very specific. and it's very visual and I don't think I'd really heard any songs up until that point. Maybe some sort of country and western songs but maybe because it was so London centric it felt to me like oh okay you can do this. You can paint a picture that can ring true about something so simple. When you started writing and you started having that early success did your parents encourage you?

20:27They must have been happy that suddenly you were heading in this new creative direction. They didn't, but not because they were mean. It was because I'm quite closed off person. So I wouldn't come home and be like, listen to this. You know, I just sort of got on with it. I have sort of very complicated feelings around that. But I think, you know, we sort of touched on it earlier a little bit. I felt very invisible in childhood. And I think in adulthood, I was always trying to sort of prove my worth. And it wasn't necessarily in the writing of the songs. it was in that I can make myself a success I can prove to the world that I am I am worth something and then that did happen and it all got a bit too much actually and then you know I've sort of stepped back a little bit when I had my kids and you know the attention and the sort of tabloid prying into my private life and all of that stuff went away as well and I and I definitely felt my sense of self-worth drop off as a result of that and I find you know when I talk when I do these kind of interviews or even you know stuff about the podcast that I'm doing at the moment I I talk about that period of time a lot and I think it's because that's when I felt like like the most

21:51worthy I don't really want to talk about now because I don't really feel important anymore. So sad. But if I'm being honest, I think that's, yeah, I feel like it's not really, yeah, I don't know. Because you were in the spotlight, because, is it as simple as that? Because suddenly, people knew who you were, including your parents? Yes, people wanted things from me, people wanted to be around me. And even though it felt very superficial and superficial attention felt crappy it was intoxicating I mean I'm not saying that it's a healthy relationship to have with it but if I'm being truthful there were things about it that were addictive.

22:34You became famous very quickly and you were known in the tabloids for the drunken behavior swearing on television being the bad girl of pop having grown up with your dad in the papers and on television do you think you were more prepared for stardom no I thought I would be maybe but I think stardom as a female is very different than stardom as a male I was brought up to think that you could do anything that you wanted as a woman so I was very confused when I got the sort of backlash that I did purely because I'd I'd been surrounded by men who behaved 10 times worse than I did and seemed to be lauded for it including your dad including including my dad and other people.

23:20Yeah, it was a bit of a shock. On your second album, which is called It's Not Me, It's You, released in 2009, there's a song called The Fear, which was released as a single, which explores the pitfalls and the contradictions of celebrity life. I want to be rich and I want lots of money I don't care about clever, I don't care about funny I want loads of clothes and I want loads of diamonds I heard people die while they're trying to find them And I'll take my clothes Yeah, I mean, I think people often think that that song is about celebrity culture and to me it was more about internet culture. You know, I spent so much time on MySpace and Twitter and Facebook at the time that I could really see the beginnings of what has become the norm now, which is people presenting a version of their lives that isn't necessarily true and the internet being this sort of smoke and mirrors playground.

24:18And, you know, the chorus is, I don't know what's right and what's real anymore because it sort of felt like propaganda, but not on a political level. It was sort of people's personal propaganda that they were putting out. And it was fascinating to me. Still is. I don't know what's right and what's real anymore I don't know how I'm meant to feel at all You became a target for the tabloids very much and you were really criticised, so you took a lot of flack in the press. Did you caught the attention though, do you think? Yeah, I'm sure. If I'm being honest with myself, I probably did. I mean, I don't think I would wake up in the morning and think, right, I want to be on the front cover of the Evening Standard tomorrow.

25:07I'm going to go and do this. But, you know, I'd certainly say things or do things that I knew would rub people up the wrong way. Or I don't know if it was necessarily to increase my visibility. I think it was more that I just wanted to sort of push boundaries. I just wanted to do things that people didn't do, you know, piss people off and say things that people hadn't heard before. it was sort of frowned on. I felt like that was my job, was to normalise normalness. Well, what I saw as normalness, you know, just the way that we would speak in the pub as friends, I didn't see why we couldn't speak like that publicly.

25:48Because a lot of the time that was slagging off your peers. Maybe, not necessarily, but yeah, or like talking about dissatisfaction with things that were going on politically at the time or, you know, just things that pop stars weren't meant to talk about.

26:11Your next choice is the 2004 album A Grand Don't Come For Free by Mike Skinner otherwise known as The Streets another storyteller