Matthew Bourne

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0:13Welcome to This Cultural Life, the series in which the world's leading creative people reveal the formative influences and experiences that inspired their own work. I'm John Wilson and my guest in this episode is the award-winning choreographer Sir Matthew Bourne. A latecomer to professional dance, he shook up classical ballet with his groundbreaking company Adventures in Motion Pictures, first with a radical new version of The Nutcracker, and then, in 1995, with an all-male Swan Lake. Since then, he's continued to popularise classical dance with a succession of innovative productions, often drawing inspiration from movies or literature.

0:50He's had hits with The Red Shoes, Edward Scissorhands, Dorian Gray and The Lord of the Flies, and has won Olivier and Tony Awards. Matthew Bourne was knighted in 2016 for services to dance.

1:05So, Matthew Bourne, welcome to This Cultural Life. Thank you. Very good to be here. You are arguably one of the world's most successful living choreographers and your shows are part ballet, part contemporary dance, part theatre. How would you describe the work you do? Well, I sort of call it contemporary dance theatre. Dance theatre, I suppose, is how I'd describe it. A lot of people call them ballets. And I think that's correct as well. You know, a ballet is a story told without words through movement and acting and all those things. But I think for purists, obviously, it's not a ballet. It's not on point.

1:44It's not classical dance. Well, ballet has rules and sometimes you break the rules. Yes, I break the rules, I guess. I don't know, it's always been a problem with the labels of what to call what I do, you know, and it's got a bit easier now because people sort of understand. I used to get a lot of, oh, he's not really a choreographer, he's more of a director and all this kind of thing. And I even questioned it myself after a while. But I am a choreographer, you know, I make up steps. It's a story told through dance. And movement and expression. I mean, there's mime involved. Definitely mime, I think.

2:14and body language and anything that doesn't speak, really, or actually say anything. So it is hard to pin down, and people do sort of think, they come to my work and they say, I'm going to see my first ballet tonight, and I don't want to spoil that, but, you know, it's just a definition, really, as long as they have a good time. OK, let's stick to the word ballet for now. You were famously a latecomer to ballet, to dance, generally. You didn't even start studying it until your 20s. But take us back before that to childhood. Describe family life. I was born in the East End. I was brought up in Walthamstow.

2:50My parents, at a very early age, took me to see a lot of things. They were movie fans. They were theatre fans. What did your dad do? My dad worked for Thames Water. And your mum? My mum was sort of a secretary of the local council. They were both youth workers as well. Would you describe it as a working-class upbringing? Oh, definitely. Yeah, definitely. They actually met playing table tennis for the county. So it's quite a sporty family, but not a theatrical family. There was no sort of theatrical history in my family at all. That's interesting that, I mean, clearly not a lot of disposable income, but they took you to shows and that was important.

3:27So culture was important to you as a child. Shows and films I was taken to a lot. We always sat in the cheapest seats. We were always in the top. We were all in the upper circle. A special treat on Boxing Day or something, Christmas treat, was to be front row of the upper circle. We booked in advance, you know, and that felt quite good. I mean, I never dreamt I'd ever sit in the stalls, actually, at one point. I actually really thought that was my place, you know, and it didn't worry me whatsoever. I loved everything I saw. You know, mostly at that point, you're sort of non-critical about everything.

3:58You sort of love everything. But it never worried me at all, and I developed this love. I mean, you say I came to dance late. It's true. I did actually in terms of training, but I loved it from a very early age through the films I was taken to see. And my parents had a great love of Hollywood musicals and MGM musicals. And they would build these things up, make them exciting for me before I'd even seen them. In those days, of course, you had to watch it when it was on. You couldn't record it or anything. So you'd build it. It's on Saturday afternoon. You're going to watch Singing in the Rain or The Bandwagon or something for the first time.

4:34and, you know, I absolutely adored these things.

4:40So the Hollywood musicals were important from a young age and the first big moment you've chosen for this cultural life, a formative influence, is seeing the sound of music. Yes. Was that at home on television or would that have been in the cinema? No, I chose it because it led to this great love of musicals, musical theatre, but it was probably the first one I was taken to see, at the Dominion-Tottencourt Road, where I found out fairly recently that it played for five years. It's unbelievable to know that now. You know, a film played for five years in one venue. So I think I saw it when I was about five or six, and I loved going into this enormous cinema with this enormous screen, and that beginning of that film, where you go over the hills and you end up in Salzburg and Julie Andrews on the hill coming across, You know, it's still, for me, the most exciting opening to any film.

5:35The hills are alive with the sound of music I think the influence of that as a small kid, and it was overwhelming. I think life-changing, really. The hills fill my heart with the sound of music Isn't it interesting, because it is, I mean, I described it as a theatre, you're talking about it as a cinema. It's a venue where I think you played later, didn't you? I mean, that was one of the venues in which you staged your Svon Lake. Yes, we did, yeah. It's a very significant venue for me. And, of course, it was the beginning of seeing a lot of those big blockbuster musicals in particular on the big screen.

6:20They were re-releasing films like West Side Story and Seven Brides for Seven Brothers quite regularly at cinemas in those days. and the dancing in those films really excited me. And I wanted to recreate them once I'd seen them and I did put on my own little shows at that point where I kind of copied and did things from memory and made up... I wouldn't have known the word choreography in those days but I put a show together. So you're talking about Hollywood musicals there featuring choreography and dancing, And yet Sound of Music, despite the spectacle, the drama, the singing, there's not a lot of choreographed movement in that film.

7:01No, there isn't. It's interesting that I made that choice, partly because it was the beginning of probably me loving going to the cinema, but also such a brilliantly made film. It's easy to be funny about the Sound of Music and it's saccharine, but actually it's a brilliantly made film by Robert Wise, who also did West Side Story, another absolutely masterpiece movie that I love so much. And as well as falling in love with musicals, I think I fell in love with cinema as well. It told its story so brilliantly and the use of location was so exciting. And the reason I chose it is because it was the start of something, I think.

7:39Was it the story? When you take yourself back, young Matthew sitting there, what is the overriding impact of that film on your imagination? If I try and think about it now, Now, I love the music, the music, and I've always loved Rodgers and Hammerstein ever since, but I kind of fell in love with Julie Andrews. Raindrops on roses and whiskers on kittens, bright copper kettles and warm woolen mittens, brown paper packages tied up with strings, these are a few of my favourite things. I used to kiss a picture of her before I went to bed on the back of the oven cover every night. I did for a while.

8:18when I was very young. I thought, I don't know why. It's interesting, my mum looked a bit like Julie Andrews, actually. But, you know, it wasn't that I needed another mother. I had a very good mother. I don't know. Were you in love with her, do you think? I think I was, you know, and to a certain extent I still am. I love her. When the dog bites, when the bee stings, when I'm feeling sad, I simply remember my favourite things And then I don't feel so bad I don't know. Even if the movie starts on the TV today and I catch the beginning of it, that's me gone for two and a half, three hours. You know, I can't stop watching it.

9:07It's just magic to me. Oh, every rainbow Till you find your dream

9:27Have you ever met Julie Andrews? Yes. Did you get a chance to tell her about your album kissing moment? Well, my friend Cameron McIntosh, who I'm working with at the moment on Old Friends, the musical I'm working on, he did something wonderful for me. when Swan Lake opened on Broadway, which was a thrill enough as it was, he secretly invited Julie to the opening. And I was very nervous on that night, obviously. And when she got out of the car, I wasn't expecting her to be there. I didn't care about anything else. It just made everything all right. Spoonful of sugar. It was just sort of like, ah, this has made my life, you know.

10:06This has certainly made my night anyway. So seeing Julie Andrews in The Sound of Music at the age of five, that sowed the seeds of your love of the musicals. Yes. What was happening at school at this time, creatively? Well, I hated school mostly. I mean, I started off enjoying it in the early years and I was allowed to put on little shows at school. I was allowed to use anyone I wanted in the school. They obviously recognised I had some sort of theatrical interest. and I did these little productions of shows based on things that I'd seen, I guess. Are you talking about primary school now? Yes, primary school.

10:42Really? Yeah. And I enjoyed that time and I did productions. I did a little version of, I mean, pressing for what happened later, I did a production of Cinderella where all the boys played girls and all the girls played boys when I was about eight or something. So there was some... But what was the thought there? why did you want to do that do you think maybe it's something to do with panto or something that I thought I wanted to be an ugly sister I think which I was my brother played Cinderella my little brother who was also at the same school beyond that I couldn't tell you why really I think I've always had that thing of wanting to do I like doing popular things but I don't like doing them in the the way they've been done before if that makes sense yeah I'm sure the teachers would have loved that but what about your classmates I mean we're talking about a kind of I presume a little kind of tough feast end school in the 1960s.

11:33Well, it got worse, you know, in later years. I suppose I wasn't exactly bullied, but I wasn't one of the popular kids. And I ended up not liking it much at all and feeling it was all very much... At the age of 14, I went to an all-boys school. And it was very much geared toward boyish pursuits and sport, which I wasn't good at. And did you continue putting on the shows? I did outside of school. because my parents had, as I said, were youth workers, so they had access to stages and halls and things, and I used to put on shows, and I formed a little sort of dance theatre company at the age of 14, the first one.

12:12It was sort of self-taught through watching. And who were your dancers at that age then? Just local people, local other kids that were interested in dance? Yeah, sometimes it started off being kids down the street. I just did little shows in my own house, you know, And any girls who moved in next door or down the street, I thought I would just sort of bring them in and make them the leading lady. My poor brother, my younger brother, I mentioned, I was putting a wig on him to be my sort of female partner in the early years. So he was quite relieved when some girls moved in down the street and they could take the female roles.

12:45Were you creating your own shows or were they always adapting existing stories? They were always adapting something I'd seen and sort of from memory in a way. So they were like versions of films I'd seen or Disney films and things like that. You've never stopped doing that then? No, I've never really stopped doing it. That's what I say, because people say you came to this late. And I say, well, something about what I do now is always there. You know, it was always from the beginning. And so you had been taken to the theatre. You'd seen live theatre from a very young age. Yes. And that love continued.

13:16What was it about the live experience, do you think, as an audience member? Once I'd got the bug, I sort of saw everything, and I loved... It felt like a world I wanted to be part of as well, and I just couldn't get enough of it, you know. I would see plays, I would see musicals. It wasn't just musicals. I saw all the great actors from the cheap seats and learned so much at an early age from watching. I didn't necessarily see myself doing it, which I eventually did, you know, for a while. It seemed a little bit untouchable, I suppose, in some ways. Otherwise I would have sort of gone to a drama school at an early age or thought about that.

13:54I thought it was sort of something other people did. I didn't sort of know of a way in. I didn't know how to get into this world. You've talked in the past about being the classic stage door Johnny, waiting after the shows to meet the stars. So was that almost subconsciously you were trying to find a route into the theatre? I think so. I was a prolific autograph collector. I mean, one of London's top autograph collectors, I would say, at that point. I mean, I knew all the major figures in that world. It is quite an underworld. There's a king and a queen of autograph collectors that I met. Thelma and Lionel was the king and Thelma was the queen.

14:36And they were the ones who'd been doing it for the longest. And there was a whole system, you know, and it took a while to be included in all the knowledge that they had. and once you'd proved that you were serious about autograph collecting, then they would let you in. What was the knowledge that you needed? It wasn't just what time the curtain came down, which door they were going to come out of after the show. It wasn't so much... There was a thing called the Bulletin, which Thelma had access to, which was the thing newspapers got that told you where people were, when they were coming to London, where they were staying and the dates they were going to be there.

15:11It was sort of secret information. And she somehow had access to it and you had to pay her a certain amount of money a month and you would ring her twice a week at a certain time and she would tell you who was in town and what date they were coming. So it was about hotels as well. So that was the sort of magic thing. When you got the bulletin, you were definitely one of them. Which were the greatest autographs that you managed to collect? So many, I can't tell you. I mean, during COVID, I sort of went through them all again and found people I'd forgotten I'd even met. Every great movie star of that era, anyone who was well-known in the 70s, you know, And I met Charlie Chaplin, I met Fred Astaire, Gene Kelly, Elizabeth Taylor.

15:51Was it just a, hello, Mr Astaire, can I have an autograph and then goodbye? Or did you manage to then engage them? It was very rarely more than that, I have to say. You know, I was like 14, 15, 16, that sort of age. I was very, very polite. It was always Mr Astaire, please, would you mind? I was never sort of pushy. And so because I was quite polite, I was this little English kid, they were very nice to me and sometimes they would stop and chat, you know. And I think you're right. It was about making contact with something that I didn't know how to be part of and wanted to be part of. Given the career that you went on to have, looking back at that, it must have been such a thrill to have met Gene Kelly and Fred Astaire.

16:30Well, Fred Astaire is my great influence and inspiration of my life, really. Partly because when I think about Astaire, I think about someone who made dancing feel natural to the whole world. Just walking, suddenly you would sort of start to pick something up and play with it, and it just feels so natural. It didn't feel like dancing. It felt like something anyone could do. Of course they can't.

17:06And meeting him, you know, even at that age, even at 15, he was my idol. I've got a vision of him in my head walking towards me. It was just me waiting outside the Connacht Hotel in the rain and I could see him in a cream mac walking towards me from a distance. I knew it was him because of the walk. And it's just, we had this little encounter on the corner of the street and I asked him, he was here to record an album and I asked him how it was going. And I can remember every little moment of it now and, you know, a little brief conversation. He was very polite. Was that the only time you met him?

17:39um well a couple of days later i was waiting for gene kelly at the savoy hotel and fred came to pick him up in his car and while fred was waiting for gene to come out he saw me and he waved at me he'd remembered me from a couple of days before i later became friends with his daughter arva who's a lovely lady and and you know those sort of connections mean the world to me um but he was definitely the one. And I think because he made dancing feel natural. I feel that's what I try and do in my work now. I try and make dance something that's not a mystery for people, not something that you need to have read a lot before you see it.

18:21And I think I get that from Astaire and Kelly.

18:31Your next choice for this cultural life, Matthew Bourne, is the composer Tchaikovsky and you famously adapted his ballets, The Nutcracker and Swan Lake, early in your career. When did you first hear his music then? I was brought up in a household that loved music. Popular singers, we would all be singing along to the albums and everything. It was a very noisy household with loud music playing all the time, but not classical. My parents didn't know anything about that. We had one LP that was classical, which was The Planets, which probably a lot of people had at that time, at Woolworths, you know.

19:06So I didn't know anything about classical music. Everything I grew to love about classical music came later when I got into dance, watching dance. You know, the very first ballet I went to see at the age of 18, I'd left school and I wanted to learn, you know, more about the arts. And so there were things like, you know, I think, well, I've never seen an opera, I should go and see one, you know, I've never seen or read a Chekhov play, I've never read Jane Austen. You know, I would think about these, I should do that, You know, I should read these, see if I like these things. And I did the same with ballet.

19:37I went to Sadler's Wells to see Swan Lake. I thought, well, that sounds, that's famous. So I should see that one.

19:47And once again, I was right at the very top of Sadler's Wells, the back row, actually, of the upper circle, which is very high up. I remember I'd had a couple of glasses of wine beforehand. I don't know why. So I was in quite a sort of merry state-ish. The whole thing just felt like a sort of fever dream to me. You know, it was sort of this piece of history happening. I love the glamour of it. I didn't have that reaction that most people have about ballet where it's, oh, it's so beautiful, they all move so beautifully. It wasn't what I expected it to be. And I love the presentation of people in a rather glamorous way, the entrances and the bows and everything.

20:28I loved the eccentricity of it. I know it sounds very naive now at 18. I thought, oh, they don't, you know, they dance all the way through. They don't speak.

20:49So I think we'll get more of this, we'll get more of this, you know. So I, having seen the Swan Lake at Sadler's Wells that week, I saw that it was also on at the Royal Opera House with Canadian ballet. So a few days later I went to see it again and it was sort of quite different, you know, and I thought, oh, this is interesting, you can do... I thought I was seeing the version of Swan Lake that is Swan Lake, but actually you realise that there was different productions, different costumes, some different choreography. And I suppose that was the beginning of something that interested me of interpretation, actually.

21:39So two Swan Lakes in a week, your introduction to ballet at the age of 18. Did it make you think, that's the direction I want to go into? I certainly found a new love, you know, straight away. And like all things with me, once I like something, I have to see all of it. and I have to read all of it or I have to collect all the albums of someone I love. And, you know, I'm a sort of completist in that sense. You know, I get very obsessed. And because I'd been to Sadler's Wells, which is actually more known for contemporary and modern choreographers, I started to go there and I saw things like Twyla Tharp and Moe Cunningham and started to become a regular at the Royal Ballet at the Royal Opera House and had a great love for Frederick Ashton's work and Kenneth McMillan, who were both working at that time.

22:23And I learned by watching, you know. So that kind of drew back the curtain, that revealed ballet to you. What was your practical entry into the world? Well, alongside all of this, I was working at the National Theatre as an usher and on the bookshop. I was about 20, you know, 20, 21. Again, seeing a lot of theatre, all the great productions at the National I saw many times and learned a lot from those as well. So it wasn't just dance. And I met someone there who was an usher, but he was also just started training as a dancer. He was the same age as me and was training at the London Contemporary Dance School.