Sally Wainwright

21:41So staccato. Yeah, and it made me realise that is how people speak. People don't speak, people endlessly speak in non-sequiturs. People don't complete sentences. Speech is often very illogical and irregular. And he kind of captured that. Again, I just found that really properly exciting. I thought, that's what I'm going to do. I'm going to start using full stops. You studied English at York University and then you did move to London. Then you worked as a bus driver for a while. So how did that happen? Well, a friend of mine who I'd been at York with knew that I wanted to come down and live in London and he was living in a shared house and a room came up in the shared house.

22:20So I moved down. I was really low on cash by the time I paid my deposit and my first month's rent. I was down to my last£5 at one point. I remember one of the other people in the house offering to make me dinner and I accepted because I knew if I didn't accept, my tea was going to be a bag of crisps. I didn't know what else was coming after that. So it was kind of the poorest I've ever been. And Graham, my friend, said, oh, why don't you apply to the civil service? Because that's what he did. So he thought it was a good route. And then this other guy, Ian, said, oh, you like driving, why don't you apply to be a bus driver?

22:55So I did both and got invited for training on the same day for both. And I decided that driving a bus was more compatible with wanting to be a writer. Because I thought if I was sitting at a desk all day, being a civil servant or whatever, that might require a lot of brain power. And by the time I got home in the evening, I might not have anything left to write with. So it wasn't that bus driving seemed like it would be more fun. Oh, there was that as well. I love driving the vehicles because I do like driving. And I like driving big things. they were great to drive but the passengers were quite challenging sometimes But passengers are chatting all day you've got a source of dialogue in your ear I presume It doesn't work like that you know I was thinking about this yesterday I was walking down the street and there were two women walking down the street in front of me and I thought this is where writers overhear conversations and write it all down and all I could hear was expensive every other word she was saying expensive they were chatting all the time but that was the only word that kept popping out.

23:53And I thought, you can't really get stories from overhearing other people. What did you get from driving a bus then, as a writer? It did allow me a lot of free time to read. I remember reading things like the complete works of Chekhov and Ibsen while I was driving buses. I used to sit in the canteen upstairs just reading. Or if I was driving a route where you got a 20-minute pause at the end of the route before you had to drive back, I always had my copy of whatever with me. And I did write a drama series eventually called Jane Hall, which was about somebody trying to be a bus driver. Which was drawing on all of your experiences then, was it?

24:28Yeah, well, some of them. What else did I get? Well, I got to know London fairly well, or at least certain parts of it, certain routes. My husband, Austin Oz, used to joke that I only knew my way round London if I was on a bus route, which is probably true. You've already mentioned writing for the Arches. It must have been around the time that you started writing for the Radio 4 series here. What did you, as a young writer starting out, what did you bring to that series? I like to think that it was just a younger voice, really, because when I started working there, there was people who'd been there, you know, a good few years.

25:06And they were all great writers. They were all wonderful, lovely people. I really enjoyed writing The Archers. But it felt like I did wonder if I'd been brought in because they did want some younger blood there. Did you shake up Ambridge? I'm not sure that I shook it up exactly. You brought some crime to the series, I think, though, didn't you? I did, yes. There was a hold-up in the shop, which I wrote. And I think I came up with a storyline for that as well. Yep, we got all the documents through on Monday. Oh, very good. So we own it, lock, stock and barrel. Oh, smashing! I bet Mark's pleased.

25:41What's going on? Shut up! This thing's loaded. Oh, good grief. Oh, good heavens. You, fill this bag up with money. Move it! Now, stop filling it. Money, fags, move! Do as he says, Betty. Fast! Oh, dear. Oh, no. Fill it now or I'll blast your head off. Keep your hands above the counter. You, you, get it. Move over there. But what did writing for the Archers do for you? It was great. At that age, I think I was 25, 24, 25, when I started writing the Archers, to be able to make a living at that age as a writer was a real privilege. You know, it meant I could develop my other ideas. I learned a lot of discipline.

26:20I learned about deadlines. Started to learn about structure, developing stories, which is the big one. It certainly meant I could stop driving buses, which I was very pleased after 18 months. Your next choice for this programme is Granada Television, where you worked as a scriptwriter on Coronation Street for five years in the late 90s. And of course, this is a series that you grew up watching avidly with your mum. So was it a dream job? Yeah, I mean, I started working for Granada about 1990. I mean, at the time, Granada was, you know, I met some really exciting people there and there was a real sense that we were being trained and being given really good opportunities.

27:02I met people like Paul Abbott and Russell Davies and Kay Mellor, who really took me under a wing and who I learned a huge amount from. So when you joined Coronation Street, that was an established writing team, I presume, Yeah, I mean, I was... Was that difficult to break into? Yeah, it was hugely difficult to break into because no one ever left. Yeah. So what were your main challenges then as a writer joining that team? I found it really scary. I mean, because it was a room full of predominantly men. There was Adele Rose there who'd been writing Coronation Street since the 60s. And Patria Smallacombe was another writer, a female writer who'd been asked to join.

27:39So there were just three of us in quite a male environment, which I found quite difficult. but I didn't really speak in those meetings. Again, I'm not very good at formulating words. It sounds like being back at school again, though. It sounds like the sort of thing when you talk about being on the outside. Yeah, I think it was a bit like that, where as soon as you'd formulated something where you might dare to actually say it, somebody else said it, because it was a very lively environment. Was it very competitive as well, everybody jostling for ideas and to be the one to write that particular script line?

28:09It could be quite aggressive at times. There were some people in the room who, you know, quite rightly kind of were protecting... You know, they'd created this show... You know, at the time, Coronation Street was huge. It was extraordinary. It was, like, certainly amongst writers, it was the show that everybody aspired to write at the time. So they were very protective of it. So, you know, you coming in as a... The new blood? Yeah. So you worked on Coronation Street for five years. When you left, what had you learned and how different were you as a writer, do you think? What I learned being on Coronation Street was listening to those voices around that table.

28:45These were people who'd done this job for a long time and who were extremely good at it. These people who'd made this show what it was. And I remember people, particularly there was a writer called Peter Wally, and he was just extraordinary. He would come up with the most extraordinary stories, the most brilliantly detailed, labyrinthine stories. And it's a particular thing coming up with stories for a soap because it goes on and on and on. It's not like a film. That's relatively easy to come up with, I would imagine, a storyline for a film because it's finite. It's very, you know, it's got a beginning, a middle and an end.

29:18Coming up with storylines for a soap is a completely different thing. It's got to have real legs. Peter Wally had a huge impact on me because a story's the hardest thing in the world, I think. I think it's really difficult. It's the hardest part of the job. It's coming up with really clever, good, detailed stories that are new, that you've never quite heard before. Did you regard being part of that team as a sort of means to an end of sort of learning the craft? No, for me at the time, it was the end. Right. That's where it all aspired to be. So you weren't already plotting the kind of the solo career, you know, you weren't already thinking about creating your own series?

29:53At the time, no. At the time, it was to get on Coronation Street, and I hadn't really thought beyond that until I met Kay Mellor, who was a really important figure at Granada at the time. and she constructed a number of dramas that I wrote on that were serps and some that weren't. But it wasn't long after Coronation Street that you launched your first series in 2000, The Braithwaite. Yeah, but again, that was Kay's influence because at that time she'd got Band of Gold on and it was huge, it was massive. It won BAFTAs and, you know, her star was well and truly risen and it was because of that that I could see, oh, that's the next thing.

30:35That's the next thing is to write big 9 o 'clock dramas. And Home with the Braithwaite's, which was Amanda Redman as a woman who wins the lottery but then doesn't tell her family and there's all sorts of other domestic dramas bubbling underneath the surface. Had you been working on that idea for a long time? I mean, even when you were on Coronation Street? Yeah, I mean, I started working on that when I was kind of still at school. I wrote a drama about a family and it was all based on my own family. It was very much about my mum and dad and the lottery win No, that was that came along later, but the family the concept of the family had been something I'd been Tiddling around with for years So what are you going to do?

31:13Well, I've got to claim it first You haven't claimed it not yet And then what I want to do what I think I want to do is I want to set up a company an organization that helps people I've already started dropping hints at home that I'm thinking about going back to work, so... But what sort of people? Anyone. Everyone, I've no idea. You see, with my money and your expertise, we could spend it wisely. And I think it'd be terribly interesting, don't you? It was a big hit, wasn't it, Braithwaite? You were getting eight, nine million viewers. Yeah. So that opens all sorts of doors for you, I presume, professionally.

31:54Yeah. It was a double-edged thing, really, because it was my first big nine o 'clock show. I just assumed it was always going to be like that. You know, every show I wrote would be a huge hit and marvellous. So I was lucky. I was lucky that the first thing I wrote did well. And I'm lucky that ever since then I have written my own original stuff, but some have been less successful than others, but that's good. You never rest on your laurels. Every time you start writing a new drama, you're thinking, what can I do to make this one capture people's imaginations?

32:27Your next choice for this programme is Shibden Hall, the historic house in West Yorkshire, which was famously the home of the 19th-century diarist Anne Lister, who, of course, provided the subject for your television series, Gentleman Jack.

32:46When did you first visit Shibden Hall? It's in Halifax, so it's the kind of place me and my sister will be taking to as toddlers. and we went there a lot. It was like our default weekend place to go and I really think that's what sparked my interest in history. And what about Anne Lister herself? I mean, such a compelling and amazing story. When did you become aware of who she was and what she did? I think I became aware of Anne Lister really slowly because, as I say, I'd visited the hall as a child. I loved the place. Even as a tiny kid, I loved that house. just had a real atmosphere and energy that was really compelling and pulled you in and that really, really spoke to me.

33:28I don't remember the first time I knew about Anlister. I think I slowly, by osmosis, gathered that this really interesting woman had owned this place, but people just didn't talk about her. But it was really hard to get any information about her. And at some point I realised that that in itself was intriguing. The fact that her story had been hidden, and literally hidden though, hadn't it? Her diaries which she had written about her relationships and the way that she presented her identity, the way she identified having relationships with women, that was scandalous at the time. Well, she was very good at managing it.

34:02She was very good at managing her life and the appearance of her life. So in Halifax, people didn't kind of write about her or talk about her. You know, the hall didn't sell her as part of the... You know, there's a picture of her there, but there wasn't a huge amount of information about her at all. Have you changed all that? I think so, yeah. I think massively. And her diaries were in the archives in Halifax. You know, they were there for anybody who wanted to go and ask about them, but nobody knew to go and ask. I read that the diaries that Anne Lister wrote were then... She'd hidden them behind a false wall, but then they were re-hidden by later members of the family.

34:39Yeah, I mean, the survival of the diaries is a story in itself. She kept them in a cupboard that was a panelled wall, so they appeared hidden. Right. And then when the last Lister died in, I think, 1929, the Halifax borough got control of the house because he left it to the people of Halifax. And the librarian, Edward Green, and his daughter went in and it sounds like the house was quite a mess and there were a huge amount of documents. And these diaries were found amongst all the other extraordinary number of documents that were contained in the house. Since then, they've been kept in the archives.

35:13But John Lister, who was the last Lister, 20 years before he died, he did crack the code with a friend of his called Arthur Burrell. So all the diaries were written in code by hand? Oh yeah, not all of them, about a sixth of it's written in code and they cracked the code and Arthur Burrell advised John Lister to burn them. Because it was what she was writing about, her life was regarded as so scandalous. Oh, extraordinary. Not only that, at that time male homosexuality was illegal so it was really deeply shocking what they were reading in the diaries. And they were worried it could damage the reputation of the Listers and even of Halifax, you know.

35:48And it was sexually explicit stuff at the moment. Oh, really, really explicit, yeah. So to his credit, John Lister was such a good antiquarian that he didn't burn them, but he hid them away. And then when the House came to the council in the 1930s, Arthur Burrell went to Edward Green and he said, I have got a copy of the code. I did advise John Lister to burn them, but he didn't. This is the only copy of the code that exists, and I'm going to give it to you and I advise you to burn it as well. But he didn't burn it either. And so, you know, as I say, it's kind of extraordinary that the days have survived, but clearly they were meant to.

36:20It's an absolute treasure trove, isn't it? It's a unique story. It's a properly extraordinary story. So when did you start dramatising it? What was the spark? When did you think that's the next story I have to write? A friend of mine, Tabitha, sent me a copy of Jill Hidington's book, Female Fortune, in 1998. I think it was published. and, I mean, it's a brilliant book and it was the first time I had a really, really proper introduction to just who Anlissa was and just how extraordinary she was. And so then I thought, I've got to dramatise this. Do you keep a journal, Marion? Oh, no. Thought I to myself.

36:57Shall I make up to Miss Walker? Though she'll scarcely understand it herself, I can see that the poor girl already seems thoroughly in love with me. and what she lacks in rank, she certainly makes up for in fortune. Shall I stay here, at Shipton, and restore its drooping fortunes and endeavour to make wealthy little Miss Walker my wife? It must be so gratifying to you knowing that Shipton Hall, which you used to visit as a child and had this sort of untold story behind it, is now probably known as the Gentleman Jack House, thanks to your work. Yeah, I mean, I'm pleased that so many people all around the world now know about Anlister.

37:40You know, having gone there as a kid for so long and been aware of this woman, and it's slowly dawning on me that she was interesting and why was it a secret and all that, to her now being, you know, globally known. In Halifax, there's an Anlister Society conference, which is going to happen every year now, and scholars are coming from all over the world to speak at this conference, and that, to me, is just gold dust. Your biggest hit, of course, was Happy Valley, and it's now one of the most acclaimed British drama series of all time. I mean, there are light moments. There's a sort of black comedy to that series, but it is incredibly bleak.

38:20It's about rape, it's about murder, it's about drugs, it's about all sorts of dark aspects of life. But so much of your other work has been uplifting, comic in tone. Does it feel very different when you're writing Happy Valley to a lot of the other pieces that you've done. Do you have to go to a different place? Not exactly. When I wrote Scott and Bailey, that I think was a lot darker in many ways. I remember my mum ringing me up, telling me that I sounded depressed when I was writing Scott and Bailey, and I realised that it was to do with the subject matter of the show. So I think when I started writing Happy Valley, I was aware of that.

38:57I was aware of not wanting to get into too dark a place with the work. You have to guard yourself against it. How do you do that? Yeah. I think if you're just conscious of it rather than... As I say, when I wrote Scott and Bailey, I wasn't really conscious of just how big an effect... I was working very closely with a retired detective inspector from Greater Manchester Police, and she'd spent her whole adult life solving murders. And I got really close to her, we were really good friends, and she used to tell me the most difficult things that were part of her regular life. There were things that, you know, as a normal, regular citizen, and you would just never dream of or come across, which gave me huge respect for them.

39:37But it was... She'd tell me things that you can't not know once you've known them and sometimes you wish you didn't. So I kind of would guard against that. That's interesting because I think part of the success, or maybe largely the reason for the success of Happy Valley, is that it's far more than a police procedural. It's about the emotional impact of crime on a small community. And therefore you are having to channel those emotions on behalf of all of your characters. You know, there's something cathartic when you write. It never felt unhealthy, you know, even though it was about really difficult things, the kind of things that Tommy has inflicted on Catherine.

40:16You know, it's about challenging your characters. It's about giving them something that's really tough to have to deal with, but showing that they can, because they're the kind of people you want to be. And when you've reached that kind of success that you achieved with Happy Valley. Is it daunting thinking of what next? There's a kind of freedom as well. I'm really pleased with what we've achieved with Happy Valley. I'm pleased with the response it's had. But when you've got a number of series that are ongoing, you end up on a conveyor belt and you can't see where you're ever going to get off it sometimes.

40:54And I found that difficult. I found that overwhelming. and I've just had time off for the first time in 20 years and I've really enjoyed it. That's been quite an eye-opener, to have that kind of freedom to think, I'm going to get back on the conveyor belt when I'm ready to do something, when I've got something else to say. Do you know what's next? Yeah, oh yeah. I'm back on the conveyor belt. Well, hopefully not on the conveyor belt, but I'm back working there. But I really don't want to get back on that conveyor belt because it's just very compromising. You just spend your whole life living in one room writing and you don't want to let people down.

41:29So you keep going and then you get, you know, you work into schedules and deadlines and if you don't finish this script on time, it's going to throw out the whole shooting schedule which is worth, you know, millions of pounds. So I find that frightening and it's been nice having a rest from that. You started off this programme talking about your mum and you said how she inspired you and she was your storyteller and then you said how she would read all of your scripts and, you know, you've written about her. She was almost like a muse for you, the way you're describing her. You lost her recently, as you said, so will you continue writing for her, in effect?

42:04Well, she developed dementia about six years ago, so I haven't been able to write for quite a long time now.

42:16But I miss her responses to what I've written. She's been a massive influence on you, hasn't she? And helped steer you to where you are now Yeah, yeah I'm sure she would have been so proud of all the work that you did as well, Sally Thank you so much for sharing your cultural life with us today Thank you, thank you for asking me

42:43Are you okay? Yeah, yeah, yeah Sorry, I don't normally talk so much It was really lovely Thank you I hope there's something there that you can use.

43:19followers. These online prophets are telling us how to eat, how to think, how to get rich, how to find love, how to manage our time. These are the new gurus. Just as people will say the Protestant Reformation and the printing press went hand in hand, so too did this birth of the new internet culture really give rise to this new religious landscape. Subscribe now to the new gurus on BBC Sounds.

43:49Thank you.