Body Language Expert: These Gestures Make People Dislike You Instantly - Martin Brooks

0:00How we express ourselves physically is directly correlated to how we're feeling inside. Somebody walks towards you, not aggressive, but confident in their own skin and gives you a warm smile. Your brain just goes, friend, automatically. It's a first date. Imagine if this is the partner of my dreams I'm about to meet. And this is the story we tell our grandkids 50 years from now. Hi, how you doing? Martin Brooks is a world-renowned body language expert and communication specialist with over 20 years experience helping people understand nonverbal communication. He's trained thousands of professionals worldwide, including world-leading politicians, executives, and actors, sharing practical techniques to build trust, influence, and presence.

0:40He regularly appears in the media analyzing the behavior of political figures, and more recently sharing his insights on celebrity traders. What is the best way of making a good first impression through our body language? The pinch of salt was something that Barack Obama was very, very proficient in using. A great gesture to use when you want to convince somebody that you've looked at the fine detail. But President Clinton used to use this one a lot. This is called the thumb of power. Unless people know the deception tells that they're looking for, they end up being deceived. So what are those deception tells?

1:17Martin, who are you and what is it that you do for a living? So my name is Martin Brooks and I've got expertise in helping people leverage their body language better, both in business and in real life. So I like to think that I'm helping them convert their body language into competitive advantage to help them communicate better, build better relationships, read deception better, read the clues that people are giving out better, but also be able to express themselves much more confidently, much more credibly, much more charismatically for the advantages that you can by communicating better. And science shows that better body language really does boost your ability to convince, influence, and motivate others.

1:59So I help people achieve that. And why is this important to you? So why did you decide to commit your life to this? So my background was in as a communications soft skills trainer and coach. So I set up my own business in 2002, coming off the back of a sales and sales leadership career in the travel industry. And what I really, really found was that when people could communicate that a little bit better, it really helped them get better results. And within 18 months of joining the company that I was in, I won sales consultant of the year. So I was there a year and a half, and I won that. And one of the things that I realized was that there were certain skills that were innate in me.

2:39But then when I paid attention to other people, I would notice that they would do things differently. they would have little tools, little techniques that they would use to build better relationships, to understand a client's needs better, to be able to put things away across in a more convincing manner. And I really started to pay attention to that and really wanted to understand what that was. Because at that point, then I moved into leadership positions. So I then had a responsibility to train other people and help them do that. So after a period of time doing that, then in 2002, setting up my own company.

3:09And that was very much about classic soft skills training. So sales, negotiation, presentation, leadership skills. But one of the things I was always fascinated about was body language. I thought it was this really interesting topic. And it kind of sat in the periphery of what I was doing because I didn't really see a big commercial aspect to, when you're self-employed, you kind of focused on, you know, where's the ROI? You know, how can I make money? How can I bring maximum value to people so they would return that value back to me? And it wasn't really until many years later, and I was running a program in conjunction with a larger training company at London Business School.

3:46And they had this module called Personal Impact. And basically, it was about getting senior executives into a room, small group, six. They would do a pre-prepared three-minute presentation. And then as a facilitator, we have a facilitate peer feedback from the other people in the room, but then also then give our feedback. And that tended to be how people came across. And it was in three core areas, their body language, their voice, and how they use structurally, how they use language structurally, how they put things together, how we'd use the Aristotle rhetorical techniques in order to be more convincing.

4:23And what was fascinating for me about that, which led me more into body language, was the number of very senior executives, you know, people in their 40s, 50s, sometimes even in their early 60s. And I would observe something that they did with their body language. And this could either be something they were doing well that they weren't aware of, or something that they were doing that would detract from their overall credibility, their overall impact, pointing out what that was, and then how to be able to correct it. And the number of very seasoned executives, I remember one guy saying to me, he came up to me and he said, at the start of the program, said, you know, please don't be put off if I'm not hugely enthusiastic about things.

5:01I've been around a long time. I've seen all these things. You know, this old saying, you can't teach an old dog new tricks. So, you know, please don't think I'm not engaged. You know, I've just been around a while. He kind of gave me that warning up front. But then at the end of the program, he came up and he shook my hand, but there's a piece of paper in it. And he went, that's for you for later. And I went, oh, okay, right, fine. And off he went. And then other people were filing out of the room and I was shaking their hands. and what have you and then when everybody had gone i unfurled the piece of paper and it simply said they say you can't teach an old dog new tricks you did thank you and his name and i thought oh that is really cool so it was something that i realized i had an interest in but i also had an eye for i was able to pick things up and that was partly because of my professional interest but also So personally, in my own personal life, I have a daughter, she's now 21, and she has cerebral palsy.

5:58So she is unable to speak. She's unable to independently have movements of her own. So complex movements like speech she can't do. But she's cognitively bright, and she can do something called eye points. So she can look one direction for yes and one direction for no. So she can answer questions, but it's like asking the right questions. So I spent a lot of time without really thinking about it, just paying attention to her facial expressions, what she trying to tell me to ask the right question. And when I worked with a very experienced body language expert, a gentleman called Peter Collette, he then said to me, when I noticed something that he hadn't, he said to me, well, you know, think about your life.

6:41Think about what you do and the amount of time and attention you spend to paying attention to your daughter's body language, that facial expressions, what's she thinking, what's she feeling, to ask the right question. And like any muscle, the more you exercise it, the stronger it gets. So I'm exercising that muscle like eight, 10, 12 hours a day. So he said, it's no surprise to me that you would spot something that I wouldn't initially because your muscle at just noticing things is just stronger. So then all those general skills I had around communication, sales negotiation, presentation, I really felt I wanted to really focus on that body language piece.

7:19I enjoyed it, which I think is really important. I find it absolutely fascinating. I still do. and it's something that when I share people with simple tools that they can really see a difference and a measurable difference and there's science-backed evidence to show that better body language equals better business, makes more business sense and in our personal lives helps us build better relationships, helps us avoid deception, helps us present ourselves better at interviews, notice when people are interested in us, there's so many benefits to it. there's just an absolute joy to be able to share that with people and them to be able to get the business and personal life benefits so that's why i went from this general communication specialist really focusing on body language i'm very happy that you mentioned all the benefits that body language can provide into one's personal and professional life because that's exactly what i want our audience to to take away from today but in very very simple terms so everyone can start from the same point.

8:18What is body language? So if you define body language, when we look to communicate, we tend to think of the words that come out of our mouth. You know, that's language, that's saying something, there's a construct there. But that's not the only medium. We do pay attention, of course, when we're communicating with other people, what are they, what are they actually saying? But then there's like that meta message. So I could say, yes, right but i could also go yeah right now those meanings are entirely different even though the language stays the same so with that change in tone and pitch with the voice and the change in that kind of quizzical body language then the meaning is entirely different like literally black and white the other end of the spectrum so that's an extreme example but it shows how what we're expressing is also part of that communication conundrum.

9:12So to take meaning from what somebody is saying, because words are just a conduit. By themselves, they are not meaning. They are an effort to express what we're thinking and feeling to somebody else. They are one way of communicating that message. Another way of communicating that message is our voice, so our speed, our tone, our pitch, and the words we actually choose. But then a massive part of that, because if you think about human beings, our primary sense is sight, is what we can see. And there's always that idea, and I think it's absolutely true, that the body speaks the mind. That if you are thinking and feeling something, and this comes up a lot when I'm doing my deception detection work, that if you're thinking and feeling something, it'll show, it'll exhibit there in our body language, in our facial expressions, in our gestures, in how we hold ourselves.

10:02All of that says something. Now, of course, when what we're saying with our words and what we're saying with our body language aligns, that it's similar, then people are much more convinced by it. If there's any disalignment with our words of what we're saying and if our voice tone changes or our body language isn't consistent with that, then our brain goes, well, hang on a second. Do I believe this message is this right? Then we might interpret that slightly differently. So if somebody goes, yeah, right, even though that's written down, we would go, marvellous, that's positive. But they would go, well, clearly the meaning of that is sarcasm.

10:42That's not what they mean at all. So body language is a part of that. How do we effectively communicate meaning? What are we thinking? What are we feeling? Getting that across as accurately as possible to the other person. That's the outward side. And, of course, the inward side, you know, what does somebody really mean with how they're communicating to me? Yes, I pay attention to their words and the sound of their voice, but I'll also pay particular attention to their body language as well. What's that saying? Is that adding to the message or detracting from the message in terms of, is it more convincing?

11:17Are they slightly fudging the truth or is there outright deception? Do I believe them? Do I buy into them? And that's very important. As from dating somebody if you're hiring somebody or you know if you're if you're pitching a product or a service to investors or customers all of the above that's so interesting because what i was thinking right now is we deliberately communicate through our verbal language but we're not deliberately communicating through our body language because nobody's teaching us that right nobody taught us that in school, our parents or in university. And I'm just wondering why is our mouth often disconnected from our bodies?

11:59Because I could be saying something, but my body's telling you maybe something very different and I have no control whatsoever over it. Yeah. So a big thing about body language is to build awareness. I mean, sometimes people say, I mean, what's the one thing I should do? Literally start paying attention to what you can, what you can see. And the interesting thing is that we say, I think you're right. I mean, I think body language should be taught in school. I think rhetorical language should be taught in school. I think how to control your voice should be taught in school. It's so essential, you know, to life, to success.

12:33And in the age of AI, it's like a real competitive advantage, how well you as a communicator can get your ideas across. So I think that it's really important to, first of all, take that step back and think about becoming more aware of it. And sometimes when I'm giving like executives feedback about some body language they're doing that I say would detract from their impact, they have little or no conscious awareness that they're doing it. And it's like, oh, do I? And then invariably in those scenarios, I'm also videoing and I go, well, yes, here you are doing it. And they go, oh goodness, I had no idea.

13:11So people can develop bad habits. They can also develop good habits. The number of times I've said to people, oh, I love the way you used that particular hand gesture to make that particular point. I think that was really effective. And they looked at me and they go, what? And it happens so often, I call it accidental brilliance. So people can be really great with their body language on occasion without being consciously aware of what they're doing because of how we learn. We kind of unconsciously pay attention to other people that we like and admire. And osmosis are kind of absorb their tools and traits if we like them.

13:49You know, the old adage that you are the sum of the five people that you spend most time with, you know, you kind of sync up with that. So yeah, I do think it should be taught in schools. It does create a better advantage for people. And the first thing to do is to kind of build that awareness of it, both for themselves and for other people. I think there are so many examples and use cases in which people want to improve their body language because they know that it's going to help them in one way or another. But one that I think relates to absolutely everyone are first impressions. And when you meet someone for the first time, what is the best way or the simplest way of making a good first impression through our body language?

14:35Yeah. And I think that most times when I get asked that, how do I make a good first impression, is very often in high stress situations. And so it's like walking into an interview, for example, or I do a lot of work coaching executives on big presentations or pitches. and the the dichotomy there is that in terms of the person's nervous system they're probably the least resourceful they're probably they're not you know you've made an effort today to make me comfortable because you really want to get the best answers out of me but in a job interview for example it might be we want to put them under a little bit of pressure you know see see how they cope with that because that's part of the job and most people are afraid of doing have a natural fear of doing presentations.

15:22So in those instances, there's kind of almost like a contrast between what's going on internally versus how I want to be perceived externally. I want to be perceived as, for example, in a job interview, confident. If you're walking into a first date, you want to look like, you know, both men and women too tend to gravitate towards somebody who's comfortable in their own skin, who feels good about themselves, not arrogant, but feels good about themselves. Well, that's an attractive quality. Confidence is a very attractive quality in other people. So in those first impressions, what we do often, and my partner said this about when she met me, you know, she saw me walk across the bar to meet her long before I said anything.

16:05And, you know, she remarked on the way I walked and how I made eye contact and I smiled. And those are all like, it's like tick, tick, tick. It's like doing the right thing. That's what I want to see from potentially a new partner, be that in our personal life or business. Are they doing the right things that creates the right impression? Of course, when people are feeling nervous, you know, be it on a first date or be it in a big picture presentation, then that nervousness and that energy may well express itself through the body. So more shrinked posture, lack of eye contact, self-comfort gestures where we kind of seek to release oxytocin in our body, the feel-good hormone, by giving ourselves some physical contact, almost like a little self-hug.

16:50And of course, those things then don't really send out that message of being comfortable in our own skin, not on the first date, or comfortable in the product or service we're offering if we're pitching to a customer. So how can we look more confident then, whether it's at a work presentation or if we want to meet our future husband or wife? Yeah. Well, I think the big thing is that that realization, how we express ourselves physically is directly correlated to how we're feeling inside. So people often come to me and they go, oh, you're a body language expert. Fantastic. What's the confidence hack?

17:25What's the one thing I can do with my body to convince everybody that I'm really confident? And people really don't like the answer because the answer is do the work. Okay. So in a business presentation, for example, the best form of confidence boosting is knowing that you're well prepared. Okay. Then it's like, you've got that inner sense of, yeah, I've got this, I've done this, I'm well prepared, I'm ready. And that just then shows in your body language. You're not pushing water uphill, you're letting it flow downhill because you've kind of done the work. So in our personal lives, then it would be about reflecting upon, well, what have I got to offer?

18:04You know, if it's a first date, you know, I'm a nice person and we're looking forward to sharing this. So getting yourselves into a more positive state of mind and then that confidence will more naturally show. So I think the big secret is not necessarily a specific body language thing that people can do, but be prepared. Be in the right state of mind, the right state of mind, not a right state of mind, the right state. So you feel good within yourself. If it's a work presentation, you're well prepared. If you're going on a first date, you're thinking, you know, what do I bring to the party? How might this go?

18:40I'm really looking forward to that. If you're in a more positive state of mind, then the natural body language, like, for example, posture. If we stand up nice and tall, people go, that looks more confident. You look more confident in your own skin. If you're looking at eye line, if you're looking at where you're going, that's another good confident sign. And smiling naturally. If you smile naturally and you're walking towards somebody, a nice, warm, genuine smile. You know, think about our primal instincts, friend or foe, you know, fight or flight. If somebody walks towards you looking confident, not aggressive, but confident in their own skin and gives you a warm smile, your brain just goes, friend, automatically.

19:20So there's a better connection. So I think to come back to your question, how do we create those good first impressions? Make sure that we're ready internally, whether that's our business or our personal lives, to allow that natural confidence to come through and look to express that in posture, in movement, and in a good warm smile. And how can we come across as more likable? Because I think a lot of people, the first thing that they want to be seen as is, a likable person. So again, body language is part of that. The one thing that I've always found in my life from my career, personal life, et cetera, is that when you have a genuine interest in other people, when you have a genuine interest in finding out a little bit more about people.

20:08So whether that's on a date or whether that's at a business networking, when you pay attention to the other person and give them the talking stick, you know, what is your business? What do you, do. That's fantastic. Or, you know, a colleague of mine came up with a great question for networking events. You know, he said, so what's your superpower? You know, and what a great question to ask somebody, right? What's your superpower? So people's favorite or most fluid topic of conversation tends to be themselves. So rather than looking to impress somebody, maybe think about, you know, having that interest, having a genuine interest in finding out a little bit more about the other person.

20:50That is a really attractive thing as opposed to, hello, let me tell you the three most fascinating things about me. Nobody tends to respond to that. But if you say, tell me the three most fascinating things that friends might say about you, that's an interesting question. And it's almost like turning things around. So that obviously then goes against a lot of what people do because they want to talk about themselves. A lot in business, you find this as well. So turning that on its head makes people more interesting, makes people more likable. But then, of course, there's a big piece then about how you respond to the answers.

21:27So if you are being cynical about that, oh, yeah, I've heard it. I need to take a general interest about people. Okay, so I'll ask them a couple of questions. What I'm really doing is just biding my time, just waiting to say the stuff that I want to say. Now, that will exhibit itself in its body language very different. So rather than doing what you're doing now, you're going, oh, yeah. Well, what happens is that people tend, they're not emotively responding. So they'd be like, yeah, okay, right, when's he going to finish? So there isn't that acknowledgement of what the other person is saying.

21:59And the classic body language tell, people always ask me, well, how do you know when somebody's not listening anymore? And I say, well, you can always tell when somebody's stopped listening and they're waiting to speak. And they go, how? Because they hold their breath. They go, oh. So just watch for, if you're talking to somebody and you watch them go. That's because they're preparing. They're just waiting for a gap. So they're boom, they're right in there. They've got the air in their lungs, but that's a signal. They're no longer listening. So if you say, so tell me the best three things about you, and then there's no emotive response.

22:31And then you kind of look a bit bored and then you're waiting to come in. You know, that's not genuine. So yes, you've asked the question, but your body language then is betraying what's really going on in here. inside your mind. Therefore, you're not making a great impression, even though the words might have been. So they're not listening to understand. They're listening to respond. They're listening to respond, but they're just waiting for a gap to talk about themselves. I really, really like your advices because your first advice is, in order for you to look confident, you need to be confident, right?

23:05If it's at a work presentation, prepare for that work presentation. If you're going on a date, believe in yourself. that we have great things that you can offer on the table. But sometimes we just can't manufacture that feeling and we just maybe don't feel as confident. Or for example, if I want to manufacture that natural smile, I just don't know what that natural smile looks like because maybe in a situation where my now fiance is introducing me to people that I'm actually fine to meet, but I'm not dying to know what they're doing. you know like i don't want to look fake with my smile so how can we how can we in a way manufacture a natural smile so we're actually seem more likable and approachable yeah i mean this this is a great question because you know we talk about we talked about earlier about the importance of a natural warm smile and there's nothing worse when people are trying to force a smile we know if they're feeling nervous they go hello how do you go my goodness what what is that you know so um So if we take a little step back, so the first thing to recognize about confidence, for example, is it's an emotion.

24:16There have to be a certain number of chemicals of oxytocin, endorphins, et cetera. And testosterone is actually the main chemical that indicates confidence, both men and women. So when you've got that testosterone and the endorphins, the feel-good hormones, maybe some opiates, you know, feeling good. Then when you smile, it is natural. If you're trying to create the positive impression with just the body language alone, it tends not to work. It tends to actually be worse than not even just having a neutral face because it looks, well, that's a bit weird. What on earth is going on there? So when people are really stressed, for example, and they're doing a presentation, and I say, well, do a natural smile, and they go, well, how do I do that if I'm feeling really nervous?

25:01So then that's about the mind-body connection. so I'd say okay so imagine you get to the end of this presentation and you've got all your ideal outcomes and you get every single one of them and this is just the start the first step on that last step of the journey and they go oh yeah that'll be great so as soon as you change that mind connection then the body language can be more genuine and that's when you can get a genuine smile so if it's a first date imagine if this is the partner of my dreams I'm about to meet and this is the story we tell our grandkids 50 years from now. Hi, how you doing?

25:36So once that mental thought process is in the right place, then like any emotion, like joy or happiness, if you've got a bad day and you think, you know, I just feel terrible, I want to feel better. I guarantee that most people, I know what I would go and watch, that I know doesn't matter how bad a mood I'm in, it'll make me feel good. So if you want to feel scared and you go and watch a horror movie. I'm going to feel horribly scared. I enjoy that being frightened or going on a roller coaster. So we manipulate our emotions all the time and making choices about the sensory stimulus that we have.

26:11And confidence is exactly the same. It's an emotion. If we mentally stimulate our brain in the right way, we can then do that. And of course, you can also use your body language to do that as well. Should I share some body language tips about how to get confidence? so there's a very famous ted talk done by a lady called amy cuddy where they scientifically studied the effect of body language on confidence and actually measuring testosterone so posture is one of the main ones so when you stand up nice and tall that is the body connects the brain connects standing tall and making yourself more visible as a sign of confidence so then it's almost like you're saying to your brain like watching a horror film to make you feel scared standing tall your brain goes oh are we feeling confident well i must release some more testosterone into the into the bloodstream so that standing tall walking in a much more demonstrative way the way you move so if you stride in confidently into an interview then the brain goes okay so we're feeling confident great well we'll release more confidence hormones into into the bloodstream thinking a natural thought about what the, I often say in a big picture presentation, I say, what's the best possible outcome from this?

27:29Think about that before you open your mouth. Yeah. And then you get that warm smile, but it comes from the mind body connection that you're thinking the positive thought. So it looks more, more genuine. So it's controlling the body. It's controlling the thought process, but also our breathing rate as well. Cause when we tend to be nervous you know the heart rate tends to be quite fast because we're shallow breathing therefore there's not a lot of oxygen in the bloodstream so the heart has to beat faster to get the amount of oxygen around the body into the brain that it needs so if we're shallow breathing and we're not breathing particularly well the heart has to speed up but as soon as you take a deep breath

28:14and you fully oxygenate the blood, the heart goes, oh, I don't need to pump as fast now because there's plenty of oxygen in the bloodstream. So the heart slows down. So one of the things that the brain pays attention to in terms of what nervous state should I be in, what hormones should I be releasing into the bloodstream, pays attention to our heart. And we know mechanically, and I've sat pre-surgery with a clip on my hand in hospital and just sent my heart rate through the roof and then crashed it back down again by just managing my breathing and how I was breathing. And that is another way of being able to control through your body, through how fast your heart is beating, your emotional states, you can appear more confident.

28:58So posture, thought process and smile and breath. Those are three fantastic ways of feeling more confident.

29:09I've also noticed that you use your hands quite a lot to express your thoughts. How should we use our hands in a way that serves our purpose? Yeah. Well, if you look at what you just did there, so serves our purpose. You actually put your hands out like that. I want to go from here to here. So there's a start point, there's an end point. You almost laid that out for me as you asked that question. And this is a body language technique known as illustrating. So if you were to say to someone, look, it's just a small investment, but it could lead to a huge outcome. So there what you're doing, your body language is completely supporting the words that are coming out of your mouth.

29:49So there's a visual and an auditory stimulus. We can see and we can hear the same message. We've got that alignment. So the message is more convincing because we're doing that. so that the when you illustrate more there's a scientific study done i think it's university in southern california professor mizu and they looked at over 200 000 gestures in ted talks and they looked at then then they compared that to the like rate on the video clips and what they found was that when speakers use more illustrators so illustrating things you know it's a small investment for a large return, that those clips got a 5 % higher like rate than the people who didn't use as many illustrators.

30:34So there are many things that we can do, very specific body language techniques that we can use. And when I did that, I did one that's called the pinch of salt. You can ask me about that later. But illustrating generally, you're right, I do wave my hands around, but there's very often a particular meaning in that. And it was fascinating, even in your question, The way you used your hand. Well, you know, what's the game plan here? How do we get from A to B? How do we do that? You actually illustrated that yourself. But that may not have been a conscious choice in your part. It's just that natural osmosis that we have about how to use our gestures.

31:08But I'll bet the next time you're thinking about laying out a plan, you'll probably go, you know what? I'm going to use that gesture again because Martin picked that up and that worked. And that was aligned with the overall purpose and the meaning that you wanted to communicate. All right. Talk to me more about other hand gesture techniques. starting with a pinch salt. Okay, pinch salt, okay. So there's a number of what I call softened fist gestures. So if you think about when you're looking to get across a point to somebody. So if somebody threatens somebody else, they go, do that, this has to happen.

31:44Now a fist is very, very aggressive because it's like an or else. You either do the request or violence will ensue. now just sorry one second for for the next probably three to five minutes i encourage everyone listening to this to also watch what martin is doing because he's actually giving examples through his hand gesture so please carry on yeah so so that's a very aggressive gesture not generally speaking that doesn't lead to very good results in terms of ongoing business or personal relationships but you do see it in business so for example in the apprentice when was running both sides of the Atlantic when Donald Trump was running it in the States and Alan Sugar was running it here in the UK, which he still does.

32:26When they say, when they both say you're fired, they both do that. They point at the person. Now that is just like really aggressive hand gesture. And you think, well, why is that? Because it's literally one finger away because I'm pointing from a fist. It's a very or else gesture. And you know that I'm pointing away from you rather than at you because they don't want you to feel threatened. So there's obviously in that question about, okay, that's aggressive, but is there a watered down version of that that can be confident and assertive? And these are what we refer to as there's three softened fist gestures.

33:02The one that I just mentioned there, if you think about it, if you make a fist in front of you with your thumb pointing upwards and then release the thumb and the top finger and bring them together, then almost like you're holding a pinch of salt between the tip of your finger and the tip of your first finger. But when you do that, this is the specific thing that I want you to do. You're still looking at the knuckles, which we associate with that. So it's a softened fist, but it really communicates that idea of assertion rather than aggression, because you've watered it down. And this particular gesture, when you bring the tip of the thumb and the first finger together, I talk about when you want to get across the idea that you understand the detail.

33:51So we've looked at those figures very, very specifically. We've done the analysis to be able to know that we're right. So the pinch of salt is a great gesture to use when you want to convince somebody that you've looked at the fine detail. Looked at the fine detail. Another soft and fist gesture, again, if you make a fist, but then you relax the fist so the top finger relaxes completely so that the thumb can drop into it and this was one so the pinch of salt was something that barack obama was very very proficient in using he used to use that a lot but his predecessor president clinton used to use this one a lot this is called the thumb of power i've seen this one you've seen this one i've seen this one in a tv show called money heist the professor the leading the lead actor who plays a very smart character uses this when he's like you know teaching his students so please so that's the thumb of power but again it's a softened fist such a really good confidence credibility gesture you know we've done this this is the plan this is what we're going to do and then that gets across the idea that this is the way it needs to happen this is certain that makes sense with the character i just mentioned yeah so if i so if i was to say to you, this is the plan, you're much more likely to respond positively.

35:12Then I said, well, this is the plan. And if I shrug my shoulders and I might get open palms and I tilt my head to one side, then you might go, are you sure? Because it doesn't look like you're sure. But if I go, this is the plan, and I nod like that at the same time, then they go, well, okay, I'll take that on board. So pinch of salt, thumb of power, or the downward point. And this one is one that's, Again, the knuckles are very visible, but it's not visible as a fist. The downward point, this is where you really want to say something is non-negotiable. So in the workplace, for example, you might say, this is a regulatory issue.

35:52There's no compromise on this. This is how it has to be done. And it was interesting when I did some observation of, I think it was, yes, it was President Biden when he was doing the State of the Union address. and he was really making a point about something that he was very clear about there was a non negotiation thing it was like support for ukraine and he actually did a double he did two downward points like that and he went our support for ukraine needs to happen and not only did he do the downward point but you get the mic could actually pick up his fingertips touching the podium like this has to happen and it was very very assertive very clear it was like a non negotiable so in our personal lives if we're trying to get across to somebody like this is are non-negotiable.

36:37I'm not doing that. I'm not spending another weekend with your parents, you know, whatever it might be. Look, no, this is not happening. Then the downward point is a very effective way of reinforcing that, that it's not negotiable. And of course, when things are negotiable, you can use different hand gestures to signal that. I loved all of these ones. What are some hand gestures that we should avoid completely? well i wouldn't necessarily think there are some bad hand gestures obviously there's a swear gestures you know that they're all well known and although saying that one of the things that i've often suggest and i use myself is creating clarity through counting so if you're saying there's three points that i want to make and i hold up three fingers and the first one is that now of course when I go to two, there's a real possibility that I could send the wrong signal.

37:32So I always say, so I'll go two rather than, there's a second point that I want to make, because that could be construed as being rude, you know, the US equivalent of doing one finger. So never count. Well, the first thing that I want to say is - So this is rude. In Britain, yes, that is FU. That's rude. That's the British equivalent of that in America. Oh, I didn't know I'm saying it. Yeah, that's okay. Okay. So again, which makes a great point, because cross-culturally, certain hand gestures can mean slightly different things. So whenever you travel internationally, it's always a good idea to speak to somebody who's from that area.

38:09There are certain things I should know about this particular culture, et cetera. Do I need to know, do, not do, et cetera. So in fact, and I fell foul of that. It's interesting. You said, I'm glad you told me that because I would never do that. and I remember traveling to the Middle East and having a conversation with an Arab gentleman and I had been playing tennis with my son a couple of days beforehand and my calves and my legs were really really tight and what I was doing was as I was I'd crossed my legs but as I was stretching my calf out and in doing so I was flashing the the sole of my foot at him now that's actually quite a rude thing to do in Middle Eastern culture to show the sole of your foot.

38:54And I couldn't understand it. My brain somehow connected. Every time I did it, he kind of winced. And it was like, and then I remembered somebody saying something about that. I couldn't figure out what the wince was about. And then I realized, oh my goodness, I'm flashing the sole of my foot at him, which is he will feel bad about, but probably knows that I don't culturally know that reference. and once I clocked it, I said, oh no, I'm really, unintentionally, I'm insulting him. So I put my feet flat on the ground and stopped trying to stretch my calves while I was doing that. So that cross-cultural piece, I think you're absolutely right.

39:31And I think, again, it comes back to that point I made earlier about awareness. Be more aware of your body language to make sure you're not doing something that somebody would take some degree of offense to. And then let's talk about the voice because I can see you're changing the intonation of your voice, the speed of your voice. You're also pausing, I think, intentionally. Talk to me about that. Yeah. So the voice, again, so it's like what you say, how you look whilst you're saying it, you know, your body language. But also there's meta messages that go with your voice. So I'm sure at some point in time you've been on a plane and the pilot will come on.

40:12And of course, there'll be a number of people on that plane who'll be nervous flyers. So pilots all sound the same. Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to flight AA-123. And I'll be your captain and we'll be taking off on the westerly runway, reaching a cruising altitude of 30 ,000 feet. Now they are sounding like that very deliberately. And I know voice coaches who work with airlines to teach pilots to sound like that. to be slow, deep, and deliberate. That gets across that sense of confidence. They're safe and you've got it. Now, when they're up in the air and they're flying, and or when they land, they go, yeah, this is your captain.

40:54We're here, we're here. We've arrived and we're on. The tone in the pitch all changes because it's conveying a different message. So as much as you've got the words, you've got the body language, but the voice also communicates a different message as well. So you have to think about, well, what's the emotion that I want to get across? So obviously, high speed and a higher pitch, this is an exciting opportunity. This is going to be fantastic. But if it's a regulatory issue that we really need to pay attention to, and there's no negotiation on, then the pitch goes down. The speed slows down. The pauses are much more deliberate to get across that sense of conviction.

41:40This is a non-negotiable where there is like, this is a fantastic opportunity. We see the market exploding right now. If you get in early, the opportunities for growth are endless. So that's faster, higher pitch, more energetic, again, to align with the overall message. So you're more convincing. Now, just swap those around for a second. So if you said, this is a fantastic opportunity, the market is exploding right now. Your brain just goes, no, it isn't. I don't believe that for a second. And very often when I'm working with senior business executives, and it's interesting, you talked about how to create a good first impression and being positive.

42:19Often they have got a really positive, upbeat message. But because they're so nervous, they kind of shut down. And then they do sound like that. They go, this is an incredible opportunity. My personal favorite was I saw a senior executive stand up in front of a town hall. And he told me this later that he was so nervous. And he went, I'm really delighted to see you all here today. And it was like every executive in the room went, well, I don't get that feeling at all. Not because he wasn't genuinely delighted to be with all his colleagues. He was just really nervous about giving the talk. So again, our voice is something that we do pay attention to.

42:56And to make the best possible impact, We want to make sure that our words, our body language and our voice are all aligned. They're all saying the same thing and they're as convincing as possible. I want to go back to that initial example of coming across as confident. So how can we shape our voice to sound confident? Yeah. Okay. So I grew up in Northern Ireland. I lived in Northern Ireland until I was 18. And my natural Northern Irish accent would be a lot faster and a bit higher. It's kind of up there and I would talk a lot like that. And that would be my natural default accent, you know, all the way up to when I was 18.

43:32Then I came to England and I moved to England here and came and studied to university. And I've lived here for almost 40 years since. And the issue with that accent, particularly around speed and pitch. So very fast is appropriate to convey excitement, you know, high levels of interest. Higher pitch, again, excitement. This is going to be fascinating. But we don't associate higher pitch with credibility. Credibility is down here. Because as we get older, our vocal cords tend to get more worn out. And our voice tends to deepen as we get older. It gets deeper as older we get. So the brain makes a natural connection to credibility with pitch.

44:22So being lower down. So I deliberately choose to make sure that when I want to come across as credible, that I'm not speaking in my northern area. And the pitch was way up here because that doesn't connect with credibility. So I make a deliberate effort to bring my pitch down. Now, when I want to do really exciting, I'll bring my pitch up and this is fantastic. And there's such an opportunity here. But when I really want to talk about credibility and that this is what the research tells us And I can show you the evidence of that. You know, I can go through the research from that was published in the Harvard Business Review that shows a better body language, create a 12 % higher engagement when you're speaking.

45:04That when you switch on that deeper pitch, you're looking to trigger that association that we have with the deeper voice and credibility. So again, just like with the body language, it's a deliberate choice of how to use your voice to get the best possible outcome from that scenario. So we're associating that deeper voice with age and then by default with wisdom? With experience. Experience. And hopefully with experience comes wisdom. So there's that natural association, which is again why pilots want to get across that credibility. So even if, like me, their natural default might be high-pitched, they're taught how to speak slower and deliberately so that any nervous flyers can go, it's fine, it's okay, this is going to be a good experience.

45:51And if an entrepreneur is fundraising and is pitching to a bunch of investors, which one is the better choice? High-pitched because you're excited and you're passionate and you're the founder, or you want to sound credible and you bring it down here and you slow it down? All of the above, but at the right time. Okay. So when you're talking about, you know, the research that you've done that would back up the projections that you're making, for example, you know, because investing is not about what you've achieved, it's about what's going to happen in the future. But in order to create that credibility going forward, you have to convey your competence from the past and your credibility from what you've already done to effectively project the confidence for the future.

46:33so when you're talking about the research that you've done or the case studies that you've had that's where you'd be wanting to use the the deeper slower so this was the case study that we had here these were the results that we found and that gives us and we've seen that consistently so it wasn't just a flash in the pan we've seen that consistently and that's what makes us really confident about how we can project to the future that we know that we have a we have a system we We have a product or we have a service that works. We've got those case histories. We've looked at your scenario and we're really confident there's a fantastic opportunity for you here.

47:11So when you're talking about past credibility, you would be slower and more deliberate. But when you're talking about future opportunity, then you'd speed up and you'd want to assist that with your hand gestures. So with the credibility for your figures, you'd want to use your pinch of salt. You know, we've looked at the research. We know the details. We know the numbers. And then we're really excited about the size of the opportunity going forward. And you have a big smile and expansive gesture then to convey that energy and enthusiasm and positivity for the future investment.

47:49We've just covered, I think, quite extensively how we can deliberately use our body language and our voice and our hand gestures to our advantage. now let's reverse the situation so how can we detect what's happening from the other person so how can we read the other person better i'd like to start with a very common situation so we we tend to not know if someone likes us yeah how can we tell through their body language yeah so i was published in 2021 i i created a thing called a body language decoder which has got 50 cards and one of those sections is on when to read expressing interest when people are interested in you so this is a game we can play at home it's an exercise it can be a game i've actually had feedback from teachers who've actually used it in universities and to go what do you think this means what do you think this means language decoder where can amazon you can get that on on Amazon.

48:53I'm just going to pick one card. It says, okay, so handshake, and it shows a picture of a handshake. And then it basically says, high handshake. Oh, that's a power play, yeah. Although the handshake is a gesture that should establish connection, some power players see this moment as a great place to assert their dominance. As they come in for the handshake, they lift their hand up high and rotate it so their palm faces downwards. Why is this like, why are they doing this? Because what that forces the other person to do, to have the handshake, is to put their hand palm up, which is a more submissive gesture.

49:30So they are having the power, they're coming down, they're asserting themselves on the other person. And the other person then has to turn their hand up to receive the handshake. So they're in a more submissive position straight away. And when someone does that, assuming that this person is doing that unconsciously, is it safe for us to assume that this is what it means, even if they have no control over that hand gesture in this case? Yeah. So it could be that it's a deliberate choice. In terms of first impression, they want to let the other person know, I'm in charge. I'm the boss. I'm doing this.

50:05now from the other person then receiving that that then puts them in a position of choice how am i going to respond to that uh i might now that i know what that person wants to assert themselves i'm not going to be psychologically disadvantaged by being automatically submissive so i'm going to choose how i respond to that so you can let them get away with it and have your open palm or when the hands make contact. So for example, if you did the power play, so you did, hey, Martin, how are you doing? And I went, oh, it's great to see you. How are you? Now, what I've done is I've turned the hand to be more neutral.

50:43And then I've reasserted, I've done the power play, I've done the wrist touch. So I've got, it's great to see you. I feel like politicians do that, right? Politicians do that all the time. So it's almost like, so it's then going, well, I'm not going to accept being dominated. I'm actually going to look to reassert myself. So turning the hands back to a more neutral and then literally getting the upper hand by touching the hand going, it's really good to see you. So it's like, you really want to play the power game? I can play it too. Now, of course, there's a risk to that. And you always need to make that judgment about how you're going to respond to it, which is why I've got the section on power play.

51:19So you understand what the other person is doing, either consciously or unconsciously. It's just like their habit. It could be a bad habit or they do it all the time. So people don't want to assert their dominance. And you're right, it's always fascinating when you watch politicians, particularly at big meetings in front of the cameras, they're always trying to outdo each other in terms of that body language. And that's always fascinating viewing. So the power plays is about informing people about what the other person is looking to do to them and then putting them in a position of choice about how are they going to respond to that?

51:56Interesting. I think the part of responding is also quite interesting because perhaps we should not always engage. So if my father-in-law is throwing me that powerful handshake, I can read to it, but then I may think, well, I'm not going to engage with it. I'm just going to let him win this because he's my father-in-law. Actually, I want him to feel like that, right? Like he's in power, he's in control. Absolutely. All right, so let's go back to my original question. So how can we tell if someone likes us? Yes, okay. So in the expressing interest section of body language to come with, there's a number of body language things that we want to look out for.

52:31So one of the really telling ones is like what you're doing now, for example, you're nodding, right? So we talk about active listening. If somebody's actively listening to you and they're expressing, I'm hearing what you're saying, then there's that little nod in the right place. But the next level of that is if somebody's really emotionally engaging what you're saying, not just logically hearing what you're saying. So, for example, what we call emotive listening. So when you say, I was really frustrated, not only do they acknowledge, yeah, you were frustrated. They go, oh, yeah. So they mirror the emotion of frustration.

53:12so if somebody is mirroring the emotion of what you're saying then they're really paying attention they're just not going yeah i get it you were you were frustrated yeah so that's an intellectual acknowledgement but not an emotional acknowledgement you're not really getting into it you're not really displaying any empathy which is always a useful skill to have in business or personal to display genuine empathy and how do you do that as you mirror the emotions you don't just go So it's good to go, yeah, I could understand why that would be frustrating. But what's even better is to go, oh, yeah, that must have been so frustrating for you.

53:51And you mirror the emotion. Then what that says to the other person is, I'm not just logically listening to this to understand it intellectually. I'm empathizing. I'm feeling the same feelings that you are feeling, which is empathy. In terms of building trust, in terms of likability, which you liked earlier, when people are, we mentioned earlier, when people are making that effort, then we go, wow, they're paying attention. They are interested in me, whether that's in a first date or whether that's in an interview, that's a good signal. So if they're not mirroring our facial expression, it either means that they're not understanding what we're saying or that they're just not interested in what we're saying.

54:31Well, the way I like to look at it is that it's they, for whatever reason, and hopefully what it is is they genuinely want to build a relationship, is that they are taking that extra step from logically listening to emotively listening, to building empathy. Now, in an interview, for example, people just might want to get the details. It doesn't mean to say they're not interested in it. They're not doing the emotive bit. So another signal for expressing interest, to get to know that people are really interested in what you say, and I always suggest to people to actually use this themselves when they're the listener, is what I call the mouth cover.

55:10So I go, oh, so tell me about that. Oh, so you allow them to talk, right? Yeah, and it's a really visual. So what I'm doing is I'm placing my hand over my mouth. So we don't talk like that because that blocks the mouth. But when you start talking, and I go, oh, that's fascinating. And I put my finger over my mouth. It's a real visual signal to you that at this point in time, you have the talking stick and I am purely in listening mode. So it's a real strong expressing interest signal that you have the talking stick. I am completely in listening mode because I am literally doing a gesture that's inconsistent with speaking.

55:51I'm going to cover my mouth. And some people actually will turn their heads slightly to the side and not only cover them with, but point at their ear. Oh, I am listening. And not talking, yeah. Of course. Is that relevant or useful when we're having a disagreement with someone in the form of an argument? Because when people argue, they tend to talk over each other. Yes. And then that obviously inflames the argument altogether. Do you think this is a useful technique to create space for each other? Yeah. Basically, every argument, if you think about it, I've ever had, it's where both parties are not feeling heard.

56:28Yeah. So they feel, well, at the volume level of my first attempt, you clearly didn't hear me. So I'm going to say it again, louder. And the other person says, well, you clearly didn't hear what I said, so I'm going to say it again, louder. And what you've basically got is two people desperate to be heard, but are stuck on broadcast mode. so the way the only really the only way of breaking that positively is for one person to go i'm going to be the bigger person i'm going to go clearly you're upset i can see you're upset tell me what are you upset about and cover the mouth so i said so i also put my hand out of it tell me place that's an open palm gesture i am willing to receive and then i follow that up with a mouth cover go what's upsetting you i am now not talking you can now speak you have the talking stick i'm not going to try and shout over you and it breaks that argument cycle of just louder and louder because every both parties are focused on broadcasting nobody's focused on receiving and then when or how should we pick up if someone wants to end the conversation i feel like perhaps in an argument they would tell you because you're heated and then they would tell you I don't want to talk anymore I'd like to revisit this argument or this topic you know within a few hours or whatever but if you're meeting someone for the first time or if you don't know someone very well but they don't want to talk anymore how can you tell?

58:02Well one example I came across years ago and it's one of those things that I'd never seen before. And once you see something, you can't unsee it. And it's just like, oh my goodness, how did I never notice that, not notice that before? And it was always there. Yeah, it was always there. It was right there in front of me, but I didn't know what I was looking for. And again, this is in body language decoder. I call it the feet of interest. So when you're genuinely interested in somebody, particularly in networking, you're standing up, your two feet generally will point towards them. So, oh, tell me about that.

58:32Because one way, again, of showing that you're interested in somebody is body orientation. So we're pretty much sat facing each other. But let's imagine you were a boss and there's a team of people over here and you want to indicate that you're talking to the person to my right. You might just shift your body slightly and orientate it towards them to let them know that you're speaking to them. You're interested in what this person is saying rather than me. So you would orientate your body towards them. Now, the opposite is also true of when people don't want to pay attention to that person anymore.

59:08They might orient their body away, but they might not want to disclose that. So it'll come out in their feet. So what'll happen is the feet will be pointing towards you, but one foot will turn outwards, which is that first little signal of, yeah, for me, the conversation is over. Now, that's stage one. Both weights is balanced over two feet. then you put turn one foot out but the weight will still be on the foot that's engaged with the other person and then when people go i really want to go what happens is they actually transfer weight onto the foot that's pointing away yeah so it's like that's like you need to let me go i'm done here so uh orientating the body or the foot away from the person that's actually speaking to you that's a clear signal for me this conversation is over i want to leave i want to go you know i'm not listening anymore so is there really any point in talking anymore and then if that situation is not with a semi stranger but it's with someone that you actually need to keep them engaged and focused like going back to the founders example yeah you're you're it's a it's a sales speech or fundraising yeah yeah how do you turn their attention back into the conversation yeah so i remember this is probably 25 years ago and first time was really being formally introduced to the body language piece and how useful it could be in in life and the sentence that the lecturer said to me was when you get good at what he was referring to as sensory acuity.

1:00:50So paying attention to the body language messages that you're getting. So when you get really good on that, you can change the second half of a sentence depending upon the reaction you've had to the first half. So when you go to communicate a message, you start talking, you think, well, this should elicit that kind of response. So then you start talking, you go, I've got a completely different response from the one that I got. Oh, that's interesting. What's that about? So if you haven't got the reaction that you had thought was possible, likely or desired then you would notice that and you go oh hang on can is there any point in continuing particularly where our communications were referred to as layered you need to agree this to do this to agree that to do this to agree that to do that so if if one of those first layers doesn't get the positive response that all the other layers are flawed so that sensory acuity piece if you don't get the reaction that you want stop talking and maybe go okay so that wasn't quite the reaction that I was expecting?

1:01:50Do you have a question? Is there something you'd like to clarify? What are you thinking or feeling right now? You may vocalize the reaction or you might just go, okay, so what are you thinking right now? Because you haven't got the response. You invite a question, you invite a comment. Therefore, if there's something that is making them disengage, you're dealing with it now, as opposed to assuming that they've understood it or they get it or agree. and now you're building other pieces on top of that. So the most important thing to do is to pay attention to how that message is landing. And if you feel it's not landing the way it should or needs to in order to go to the next stage, then notice that, stop, check in, ask a question.

1:02:34What are you thinking? What are you feeling? Is there something you'd like to say or ask?

1:02:44Now, I want to talk about lying, which is probably the one common denominator that everyone would definitely be interested in. How can we spot if someone is lying to us through their body language? Yeah. So it was fascinating last year. I was contacted by the London Standard because there's a section on deception detection and body language decoder. And then knew of my expertise and asked me to analyze the BBC program Celebrity Traders, which was on the back end of last year. Now, what was fascinating about that is in general life, we don't know if we're being deceived. We don't know. We might have a little inkling that we're being deceived, but we're not sure.

1:03:28So people say to me, oh, did that politician lie in that speech? And I have to be very careful what I say because you can libel somebody very easily. What was fascinating about being asked to analyse the celebrity traitors was that I know the traitors are going to be lying. Now it's will their body language give them a way that they are lying? Because obviously the whole premise of the game was that they have to lie and say, no, I'm not a traitor. I'm a faithful. Therefore, don't vote me out of the game, the traitor's game. Now, what was fascinating about that was I could clearly see the deception tells that the traitors were giving out.

1:04:10And I'm like shouting at the screen, don't you see that? Can't you see that? And week after week in that particular game, the traitors remained undiscovered because none of the other game players recognized the deception tells. and they kept on voting out faithfuls and the traders survived two of them all the way to the end of the game. They only got one of the traders over the series of voting people out. And that's also true in business, that unless people know the deception tells that they're looking for, they don't notice them and then they end up being deceived either in our personal or our business lives.

1:04:50So what are those deception tells? One of the most common ones is what I refer to as a truth slip. So this is where the body tells the truth. So a typical truth slip, and again, I saw this in the celebrity traders, where they would deny something but shake their head. Yes. So at one point, the rugby player Joe Marler accused Jonathan Ross. I said, are you a traitor? And he goes, no. And just shook his head, yes. And nobody noticed. And I'm like screaming at the screen. That's a truth slip. That's where the body is telling the truth where the mouth is lying. The old idea that I said to you before, the body speaks the mind.

1:05:37So truth slips. And that can go either way. You can say no, you can say no and go yes, or you can say yes and go no. And it's like, you see, sometimes very often see politicians doing this as well and they're asked a direct question and they give a truth slip. And the other one that I saw, which again I find fascinating, is something called duping delight. So that's when a person is lying and the person that they're lying to signals that they're believing the lie. So again, both Jonathan Ross and Alan Carr both did this in The Celebrity Traders where they said something that wasn't true and then they exhibited what we call duping delight.

1:06:22So if you just go backwards a second, lying is not a natural act. You know, when we're lying, we feel uncomfortable. Of course, because we know we're lying and there's a risk of being found out and what that would cost us either in that personal or business relationship. So there's a sense of nervousness, threat, risk. Now, if somebody says, you know what? You know what? You've convinced me, I believe you. Instantly, there's a sense of relief that were not going to be discovered, and or joy is like, yes, I'm getting away with the lie. And what that looks like is a little small flicker of a smile or a little one-sided smile like that.

1:07:02So it's the very beginnings of a smile or the person is desperately trying to suppress the smile and just the corners of the mouth or sometimes just one corner of their mouth will creep into a smile. So when I'm working with business executives, we want to make sure that we're not being sold a lie by a new company. Or I don't want to hire somebody who's lying about their past experience, for example. Well, how do I figure that out if I get the sense that maybe they're not telling me the truth? So my advice is always, if you think somebody is lying to you, just look them in the eye and go, you know what?

1:07:41You've convinced me. And just watch their mouth. And if they go, that is a strong signal that they are experiencing duping delight. When you tell them you believe the lie and then they smile, that little half smile, ooh, that's interesting, that tells me a lot. Now, if that's also combined with some truth slips or some of the other deception tells, then you're pulling together a lot of information that could all indicate, it maybe i want to make it be more cautious about hiring this person or hiring this company to deliver this service or dating this person who i'm now thinking might be a psychopath maybe i don't want to date them at all i want to be very cautious about this tip because perhaps someone may be testing this at home and they would be asking their partner um did you cheat on me and the other partner would be like no for that and then you answer i believe in you or i believe in what you said and then you're looking for that tell yeah how accurate is this if you were able to put it into a percentage like 80 70 well it really it really depends on the situation and you know it's it's not an exact science you know you can't go categorically 100 so it really depends i mean there have been certainly in the traders scenario what was fascinating was i knew they were lying up front and then it was like well i wonder will they express that it's like yes yes yes uh in politicians i'll often watch a politician do something and then go yeah i'm not entirely sure that's true and then like three months six months later it finds out that was completely untrue and i thought you know i i was right i was on the button there with that particular one There was one very recently where, yes, a senior cabinet member in the Conservative Party had defected to reform.

1:09:37And Kemi Bednock, the leader of the Conservative Party, was asked, you know, are you 100 % confident there'll be no more defections? and she was answering the question. But the answer that she was giving vocally was not the same one that she was giving. She was doing a truth slip. So I published that on LinkedIn. I said, oh, yeah, you know, it's interesting. I don't know what she really feels. But what I do know is she gave one answer with her mouth and her body language, she did a truth slip. She gave the opposite answer. And 48 hours later, somebody else defected. So it was like, you see, I was right.

1:10:13Like how it's very, very difficult to give a figure to it. And obviously retrospectively, I can do it. So yeah, I thought that at the time, there was the evidence that I was going on. Turns out I was right. And like all things, if you're making a decision based on do I really trust that person, there's always that area of grayness, you know, but you're looking for that tipping you one side, tipping you other, being convinced, being not, or maybe saying yes, but holding something back, being a little bit cautious, it's very, very difficult to be sure you're right. But you want to gather as much evidence as possible.

1:10:52So when you're making the decision, you're as informed as possible.

1:11:01I want to talk now about video calls in the spectrum of the workplace, because right now with, you know, post-COVID with the hybrid model of working, so many meetings take place in Zoom. And I don't think we know how to use our body language and what to do and what not to do over Zoom so we can see as engaged and also confident and professional. So how should we carry ourselves over Zoom? So I think how do we use body language best in a virtual environment is a fantastic question. And of course, you know, COVID has massively changed how we operate. A lot of our communication is still done virtually.

1:11:42And it's a real massive change in how we communicate. But our brains still work the same way. Our brains still need those visual cues in terms of being convinced, influenced, or motivated, or to build a relationship, to build trust. The biggest mistake that I see people make is they go cameras off. they think oh well we don't we don't need that or um companies give their employees permission not to have their cameras on because they're dialing in from home or whatever and it's almost like all right here's a here's a car drive it as effectively as you can but only use the first two gears it's just like it doesn't work you know there's a third and a fourth gear there Why would you take out that huge piece of how we communicate and how we understand what somebody else is saying?

1:12:35So the first thing is that, you know, to make sure your camera's on. If you're communicating, make sure your camera's on in order to be able to, like we were talking earlier about gauging the interest of other people. How can you possibly do that when you can't see anybody? And I made that mistake during COVID of agreeing to do a session, a virtual session with about 100 people on the call and hadn't agreed what the rules of engagement were in terms of cameras. And obviously that was a company I found out in retrospect that had a cameras off rule. If you don't want your camera on, turn it off.

1:13:09So I'm sitting in my home office talking to a black screen thinking the connection could have crashed 10 minutes ago. And I have no way of knowing, is there anybody there? And not only that, I couldn't get any feedback, but I could hear my whole internal dialogue going on. Is there anybody there? Are they agreeing? I don't know. And I could hear that in my voice, and my body language was becoming less certain because of that whole doubt was there. So now I say, if somebody hires me to do a virtual session rather than an in-person session, I go, yes, but one of my rules is that cameras are on. done.

1:13:48We have to have that. I need that feedback. I can't be at my best if I'm talking to a black screen. I'm pretty good at it, but I know I'm better if I can see people. So the first thing is, you know, the communication style has evolved. Our brain hasn't. It still needs those visual cues. So camera on so you can see people to respond. Still pay attention. The other thing, I mean, you mentioned earlier and you picked up on about how I gesture a lot. And I talked about illustrators. and those are equally true on a virtual call in fact more so because whilst we're face to face here you would notice if i reached for my phone and started looking at it you know and that would be really disrespectful and kind of ruin the relationship but on a virtual call you kind of people can kind of do that you know they can just glance off and you wouldn't necessarily know so actually you have to work harder to maintain their engagement that you do in person because it's easier to disengage.

1:14:47And as soon as they see a notification, as soon as they start reading an email, their brain's there. It's not with the person. So I think you have to work harder to maintain engagement with people on a virtual call. And of course, visually is one of the best ways of doing that. So one of the top tips I give people about when you're communicating outwards on a virtual call is what I call shoulder high gestures. Because when we gesture, we tend to gesture down here at kind of mid-torso level. Like Trump. Yeah, out here. It's here, right? But of course, if we're doing that on a virtual call, chances are that's out of shot.

1:15:25So we can, and sometimes I see people communicating, and I just see the tops of their thumbs or something. And they may well be doing a very effective gesture, but it's just not visually available. So we have to get used to gesturing up here. So what I talk about, at shoulder height. So this is what we're doing. The first point is this. then we're going here, then we're doing that. And my pinch of salt needs to be up here. My thumb of power needs to be up here. And if I'm doing the downward point, it needs to be up here. Not down here, because people can't see it. So camera's on, shoulder-high gestures.

1:15:58And then on the other side, if you're listening, then again, to keep that sense of relationship going, that expressing interest, you probably need to turn the dial up a little bit. And they're, yeah, absolutely. That whole expressing piece that you're listening, you're getting it, you're understanding it, you're empathizing with the other person. Again, you need to turn the dial up on that a little bit so they feel good, they feel that you are paying attention and listening. So there's a number of little tweaks that we need to make. I think the big picture is that whilst our methods of communication revolve, our brains haven't quite caught up with that.

1:16:35They still need that heavy visual influence to keep the engagement going. And when it comes to our voice, should we exaggerate our intonation? Yeah, same thing. So turn the volume up on that. Again, to keep the other person's brain visually stimulated, not tempted to go and check their phone a little bit more, maybe 10, 15 % more on the voice, on the intonation, on the volume, on the emotions, on the facial expression. a little bit more dramatic on a virtual call to keep people focused, to keep them there and not go off and check an email or see what that latest notification was. There's now a very agitated and multi-layer debate on which profile picture we should be choosing that would basically describe you in the best way, right?

1:17:23Would shed the best light on you. So you're going to be seen as friendly and open-minded and professional and intelligent. do you have any thoughts on which profile picture we should be choosing yeah so the thing is what do you want to communicate i mean you listed a whole array there you know do i want to do i want to be intelligent i want to be approachable do i want to look credible you know so it's like well what do you want to say let's say for linkedin we want to look very professional yeah absolutely and for example on your your uh in your social media you know it's a different message therefore it's about aligning you know the picture with the intent how do i want to be perceived i often challenge people i say okay perception is reality you know when somebody else you know meets you they'll formulate an idea about you and i like to reverse engineer that so i say if when i'm working with people one-to-one coaching them i say okay so let's imagine you go in you give this presentation and you walk out of the room.

1:18:24And then I go in and I go, describe Bob to me in three words. What would be the three words that you'd want those people to say? And they might say approachable, or they might say confident, or they might say credible, or they might say empathetic. Now, dependent upon the describing words that they want, then I will review their communication style and I'm going, well, that's not quite what I'm getting. If you want to be viewed in that way, here are some of the adjustments that you need to make. So we reverse engineer the perception that they want. So same thing to do with a profile picture. How do you want to be perceived?

1:19:01And is the picture that you're putting up there, you know, getting that across? So we talked about LinkedIn. So if you put a LinkedIn picture up that's cropped from a holiday picture, it's not really saying credibility, is it? But if you wanted to be really seen as somebody who's very approachable or family orientated, then that would be a good picture. So I guess the challenge is then to go, how do I want to be perceived? And what's the best visual version of me that I can put up there to people to come to the right conclusion about me? And I think that's true as much as it is on a professional platform like LinkedIn, as it is a personal platform like Facebook or X or whatever.

1:19:41I want to give you three different examples or three different use cases. And then I'd love for you to advise me on which are the best pictures that would be more fit for purpose so one it's linkedin yeah which is a professional platform and the other one is whatsapp which is a social platform and then the third one is a dating app ah so on the let's start with the last one the dating app because that's the one you smiled most on so i'll give you that answer first i am happily but i know i have lots of friends which they actually ask me this question like alberta do anything else you go with this picture with that picture and to be honest i'm like i mean they both look pretty much the same to me yeah so so again think about what was what was a potential partner looking for are they looking they're looking i mean i think if you look at it environmentally you know it's risk averse isn't it i mean online dating is kind of scary you know because who is this person is what they're saying on their, you know, accurate, you know, are they a psychopath?

1:20:47There's a lot of concerns, you know, because it's online. Of course, you know, anybody who's done any online dating will have a whole category of horror stories. So what do they really want to see? They want to see friendliness and openness. So friendliness and openness. So they will want to see a warm smile they'll want to see more open body language and my partner who i met through online dating and she just we talked about this and said the number of of men who had like a photograph of them holding a fish it's like why would i be interested i don't even like fishing you know but it's almost like that hunter-gatherer thing look i provide food i catch fish you know Oh.

1:21:29You know, it's such a bizarre thing. So again, it's about reverse engineer. So what's the environmental area? There's an environmental concern about, you know, am I safe? I mean, that's the primary instinct that we have. Are we safe? So you want to be able to say, I'm warm and I'm friendly. So nice, soft pose and body language, maybe a head tilted to one side slightly, you know, and a warm smile, a genuine warm smile that says, I'm a nice person. I'm not a serial killer looking for my next victim. Yeah. Yeah, rather than, hey, look at my wild Zibas right here. Absolutely. And so then, you know, your WhatsApp, you know, with your friends again, it would probably be what I see a lot, particularly on WhatsApp, certainly is true on mine, a little bit more relaxed, a little bit more me, who you are as a person, you know, with an interest or, for example, mine is travel is one of my passions, one of my interests.

1:22:25So it's a photograph of me on holiday. You know, that's me, but I wouldn't use that on LinkedIn. You know, LinkedIn was a professionally taken headshot that I got a professional photographer to take, you know, with good lighting. And now that I'm older, it's in black and white, of course. So I look better in black and white than I do in color. All right, so a professional photographer for LinkedIn, a hobby or social environment related picture for WhatsApp, and then a head shot tilted, like head tilted to the right, right or left? It doesn't matter. Head tilted and with like a genuine warm smile.

1:23:00Genuine warm smile. And the way to achieve that is in the same way as you mentioned earlier. So imagine something that makes you happy. Yeah. And you smile. Yeah, yeah. Or, you know, when you were out with friends and you were feeling really happy and you just had a really nice time. Or if you haven't got a good photograph, then think about a time when you were really happy and get somebody to take a picture. Martin, my last question for you is a question that I ask every single subject matter expert. And I love this question because it's quite challenging, right? Most of the, if not all the subject matter experts that I get to interview, they are incredibly knowledgeable.

1:23:34And it's very hard to answer this question. And I guess you'll see right now why. So if you were to compress all your knowledge, all your experience into one essential piece of advice, just one, that we must implement in our daily lives, what would it be? It would be to remember that the body speaks the mind. And whilst people are listening to what we say, they need to see the alignment through the body language in order for us to be believed. So what is your body saying? So always be thinking, what is my body saying? And is it consistent with what my mouth is saying? Is it consistent with the overall objective, what I want to get across, what I want to say?

1:24:18so as to remember that the body speaks the mind and therefore look for those adjustments in order to be able to be as effective as we possibly can be. Martin, thank you so much. I enjoyed this at so many different levels and I'm definitely going to implement many of the things that you've taught me across so many aspects of my life because I believe that this is one of those topics that it just touches almost every aspect of your life in one way or another and anyone can relate to this topic, right? Because whether we want it or not, we are speaking through our body. And I think it's so much better if we have a degree of understanding on how to control it and also how to understand the other person's body language.

1:24:57So thank you for sharing all the knowledge, all the experience with me, with my audience, with my team. And I look forward to doing this maybe in a year time because I'm pretty sure the science has evolved in this regard and we can learn more from you. Yes, fantastic. Well, thank you for the opportunity for the fantastic questions. And, you know, your listeners, you know, look for those things that they can do, you know, unlocking that extra potential. by changing their behavior in some way and achieving better personal or business results. Thank you, Martin.