Joe & The Juice Founder: How I Built A $1.8B Brand! Why Control Kills Culture, The Truth About Money, Private Equity, Ambition & What Success Really Means | Kaspar Basse

0:00When you opened your first Joe and the Juice, which was in 2002, how big was your ambition? You know what the vision is for Joe and the Juice? No. To get on the cover of Rolling Stone magazine. Really? Who came up with that? I did. I actually had a chairman once who looked at me and said, but that can't be the vision. I said, well, I'm the founder. I'm pretty sure I know what the vision is. If you go a little deeper conceptually into things, there's no one who does things like us. Kaspar Basset is a leading entrepreneur and the founder of Joe and the Juice, the global juice and coffee brand he built from a single shop in Copenhagen into an internationally recognized business with more than 500 locations worldwide, valued at$1.8 billion.

0:42Known for his rock and roll approach to leadership, Kaspar built a culture around energy, individuality and empowering people, turning an everyday product into a global brand with a personality all of its own. Should product development be done by a separate department? Or should it be done by the people who are executing the products behind the counter? To me, it's quite obvious what the answer is. What you've got to understand is what makes people ignite. If I tell you to do a job and I control you, it is not fair for me to expect this ultimate ignition and ownership on your part. Shouldn't we be able to keep that fire alive today?

1:22How were you able to protect this culture of freedom as you scaled John the Juice? Kaspar, you've kept a very low profile throughout your entire career, which makes me feel incredibly grateful that you're here today to share your story. Take me back to the very beginning. What was your childhood like? Wow. I thought we were talking about coffee and juice. I remember my childhood as being very, very comfortable and wonderful, to be honest. I wish I could deliver some kind of dramatic background that somehow pushed me to something. But I can't. We had a wonderful home, wonderful friends. yeah, I don't even know how to make that sound tremendously exciting.

2:23It was fun and I was obviously surrounded by a lot of ambitious people, not least my two parents, both parents, who both were very focused on their professional career and ambitious. in that sense but when I look back also all of their friends and yeah so an ambitious but but in no way like radical background it's not like Andre Agassi's dad putting him putting the tennis ball machine up on a box so that it's more difficult to return the servant. Nothing like that. It seems like you were loved, and they also, as you mentioned, they taught you a very important value, which is ambition. What other values did they instill in you?

3:24I think that you could say no direct expectation as to the outcome of what I or my brother, by the way, would be doing, but a great disciplined expectation as to the effort and a resourcefulness, which I actually think is quite valuable. A resourcefulness to in most situations, after having complained about how unfair the world is, to look at yourself and decide that you actually, there's a very constructive perspective in assuming responsibility. So basically, if it's not your fault, you can't do anything about it. But if you assume that it is at least partly your own doing, you are in the driver's seat.

4:35um as far as one of the things that that in in the early days enjoying the juice i formulated as don't blame the weather you know in in in retail and fashion and in our business f &b if you call it that um if there's a little issue with the numbers people look outside and they're happy to realize that it was raining and of course our revenue is much better if the sun shines and apart from being in Denmark at the time where it rains 300 days a year we quite we did something very specific about agreeing in the company that to never blame the weather because the fact is it may actually be true that it has a certain negative influence if it rains.

5:28But unless you can ask God and make him do your bidding to bring out the sun, there's no reason talking about the weather. What we can talk about is why we didn't manage to raise the frequency of visits on our loyal customers or this wonderful lady who comes in every day except monday why haven't we convinced her that monday is the absolute best day to come in and you know so um and i think that resourcefulness in any aspect of life really is quite important and and people tell me that it's it's an even bigger challenge in the in the recent generation where many young people will be reluctant to embrace responsibility for AX, Y, and Z.

6:33And the fact is it's just a good thing to be able to because it makes you move forward in many aspects as opposed to just victimizing yourself and standing still. Interesting. You seem to be a very disciplined person. Karate was a big part of your life when you were growing up. What did this martial art teach you? you know i typically say i'm not sure if i'm disciplined um my brother is disciplined um i don't i'm not what's the definition of discipline if discipline is being very focused assuming responsibility and acting on it uh yes but but that's also just resourcefulness and interest and ambition discipline my book is doing something that you actually don't like to do because you feel you should or it makes a certain structure better or and i'm actually not very good at embracing responsibilities and doing stuff that I don't like.

7:50And I always use my brother as that example because he's equally good at doing things, whether he's very bored, but he knows he needs to do it, or if he's interested. I'm, in all modesty, I'm probably quite intense in the areas that I'm interested and stimulated by. So that's true. But the things that are boring to me, I'm not very disciplined about. Interesting. You went to Copenhagen's business school. If you look back right now, with everything that you have accomplished, would you say that going to business school was something important in you becoming a successful entrepreneur? I think the popular answer is it doesn't matter, and it just slows you down, and it's a waste of time, and blah, blah, blah.

8:40I actually think it may not be the most important ingredient for you to initiate yourself as an entrepreneur and apply yourself. It's not the thing that gives you a specific intention and aggressive ambition. but I do think that once you're off the ground with a business, it is a very healthy platform to be able to execute from. And I think I can see a certain pattern that I was always, from day one, very focused on the financial sides of the business. And it came rather natural to me to be focusing on avenues of revenue and profitability, not least. And this may be areas which are less obvious for some entrepreneurs and maybe because they haven't gone to business school.

9:56I don't know. But I do see entrepreneurs who are, you know, unrealistic about the financial side of their otherwise beautiful idea. And I think it's a responsibility you have as an entrepreneur. And anyone would know that I've always been very brand equity focused and brand differentiatingly focused. I've always been very focused on Joe and the Juice being different on many accounts than the competitive landscape and all these things. But I've also been very, very focused on the financials and realistic about the financials. And perhaps that actually comes from the educational platform that I also went through.

10:51Yeah. Interesting. I'm going to share with you the experience of another hospitality entrepreneur that come in the show. And I would like to get your take on this. He said that realism is something that didn't benefit him. And him being unrealistic is what enabled him to become very successful. This is the founder of Big Mama Group. And he gave me an analogy, which I found very interesting. He said, when Cristobal Columbus said to the Spanish monarchs, he didn't say I want to cross the street he said I want to cross the oceans and then he went on to do something very remarkable when you opened your first Joe on the Juice which was in 2002 how big was your ambition?

11:32very very very clearly Starbucks I was always a big admirer to this day I am a big admirer of Starbucks I think it's an absolutely incredible accomplishment and brand And I completely agree with your former guest. And you don't even have to be poetic about Columbus. It is obviously important to not to be too realistic about risk if you're an entrepreneur. And I think it's extremely important to be naively enthusiastic about the importance of your idea and your business and the beauty of your plan. But that's entirely different to being unrealistic about the money side of the business. so if you are as ignorant and unrealistic about the financials as you are about your idea then you're going to have a hard time and you're going to have a hard time

12:45developing partnerships you're going to have a hard time making other people who are not born with this enthusiastic impression of your idea to partner with them because they will, of course, be looking at the financial aspects of the business also and all these things. So it's two different things that to become a successful entrepreneur, unless you're in Silicon Valley and you came up with some AI idea and all these things and the idea of funding being a valuation of the business, you think you made money because you're now funding at a high, you still don't have the money. Come on, let's be realistic.

13:26At some point you need to compare it into, you know. So it's two different things. But I agree with your former guest on the concept, business brand side of the business idea. I really like this. So dream about the growth and the scalability of your idea, but be brutally realistic with the financial aspects of your business. Yeah. And it's easy for, in our business, right? At least it's very much in front of us. You've done restaurants now outside this. And of course, with Joe and Juice, because there's a rent. There's a rent that falls next month. There's due next month. If you can't pay it, the party's over.

14:09so so it's you need to understand that as beautiful as the idea is as radical your approaches as different it is you need to have a certain flexibility if it looks like you may not be able to pay the rent and and and this realism on the financial side i think is healthy absolutely how did you come up with the idea for the first joan de juice back to starbucks i wanted to create a similar small four wall concept that I always found it beautifully creative actually to to multiply that as opposed to what we talked about a little earlier as opposed to a bigger restaurant where the the sexiness and the intimacy relies on it being one-off and you actually want the owner to not make another restaurant because you you don't want to dilute that specific little ambient experience.

15:10I think in the business of Joe and the Jews and Starbucks and such, there's some kind of sweet creativity to be able to drop these small little convenience points in people's neighborhoods. And there are the name Joe. Joe is slang for coffee. Interesting. And then back to my karate background, that we were obviously subject to nutritional schemes and diets and stuff. But at the time, keep in mind, this is sadly many, many years ago, it wouldn't include fruit and vegetables. And the beauty thing about fruit and vegetables is that it almost doesn't matter how you mix it up. If you just make it fresh, serve it and drink it right away, it tastes incredible.

16:01It's very nutritious. It looks beautiful. So it's a wonderful product. And that's why it became Joe and the Juice. Interesting. On this show, I've seen two different types of entrepreneurs when it comes to the root cause of coming up with the ideas for their respective businesses. Entrepreneur A, they feel very emotionally invested in their idea because they would have been the perfect consumers for it. And entrepreneur B, they have a more logical relationship with their business because they've identified a gap in the market that perhaps is indifferent to them as a customer. Are you in any of these two or a bit in between?

16:44I'm definitely the first one. Interesting. I would never engage myself in something where I wouldn't be the ideal customer. I don't think I would be able to. I don't see business I see business as I see sports and other disciplines like you can have a certain talent and you can have a certain profile and I'm not very rational and objective about it to me the success in what I do whether I play sports or whether I do business is entirely based on my emotional attachment to what I'm doing. I don't find it intriguing to engage myself in something that can just spin off whatever potential return. And I also find myself not to be successful with it.

17:48I don't think I'm very good at it. To be too rational just on an investment, And it never materializes in the way it does if I'm emotionally deeply, deeply involved in it. How did you fund the first John DeJuice? I came from another business where, funnily enough, this partner wanted to get rid of me and got rid of me. and as any legal, you know, circumstance would have it, he had to pay me a little bit of money to leave. And I used that. And it's interesting because if you look at today,

18:31I don't know, whatever CapEx is for a Joe and the Juice or a Starbucks, let's say a number, whatever, a million dollars. And I made my first store, keep in mind, it wasn't big and it didn't look very professionally made. But it was, I want to say, $80 ,000. But it was done because that was the amount of money that was there where today it would be easy to say, but nobody can build a store for that. And maybe you shouldn't, but it is possible. so it's fun when you look at these entrepreneurial conditions. There's a very valuable lesson in this early part of your journey because the words that you've chosen are very interesting to the underlying meaning.

19:25You said that your partner wanted to let you go or get rid of you and then you left, which has a negative connotation. A lot of people in this day and age, when they're let go from a business, they would go into a negative state of mind but that is actually what defined a huge part of what happens next in your life which is building a hospitality empire of over 500 units which is very beautiful how from such a negative situation you turned into something incredible yeah i think we had at the time we had been going wrong for quite a while and among other things because i I had absolutely no interest in what we were doing.

20:06And therefore, from a purely business point of view, I actually think he was right to ask me to go. And because of that, when we split, it also felt like a super release or relief to me. So I didn't get out of it with like, oh, I'm so sad, I'm not going to work with this anymore. I got out of it feeling free. aside from obviously that the emotional thing between the parties know which always you know which is always there but again you know you gotta apply some sort of you know you you you cannot spend the like just get on with it you know like nobody cares at the end of the day no but we all think what we do is so important nobody cares just move on.

20:57How long did it take you to realize that? It's just a little bit of an older person rationalization that you can apply and it's a little bit of

21:13controversial compared to the creative dream and importance you feel and I can apply another perspective which is that Joe and the Juice is one of the most important businesses in the world because we're the only larger business that provides very, very fresh juice. And it is the only, you can just look at it. It's the only way to fully deliver nutrition to people from a natural source. You know, the second you put it in the fridge or you do it, you know, and you serve it the next day. All these things compromise the nutritional value and the look, by the way, and taste.

22:02But one thing is that maybe in Joe and the Juice, we should have that. How many people are we delivering how much vitamin and mineral to every day? Have like a measure of that would be beautiful. Yeah. But that said, on the other hand of course nobody really cares outside us who are involved in Jonah juice and it just so if something is you know it's troubling you too much and you know you're disappointed it's so easy to be annoyed about and if you are at a certain place in life where most perspective on that situation is positive we all have daily issues and challenges but if if you from a rational point of view look at your life you're like it's pretty fucking nice yeah we can all blame our parents for having done x y and z and they were tough or they weren't tough enough But it seemed like the result has been quite satisfying.

23:21So maybe whatever I felt was unfair was actually a help. Like, would I exchange? If you ask me today, is there anything I would change? There's not a thing. like I'm you know tremendously gifted by the tailwind and and and and experience and wonderful life I've had building Joe and the Jews we also had a very very extraordinary you know cultural aspect of the business we spent so much time together many wonderful friendships it's been incredible and here i am with a you know a nine months old daughter and a wife that i love more than anything and i mean maybe my dad was tough or maybe he should have been more tough or maybe my mother you know taught me to drink too much red wine but it just seems like i should be grateful because i mean look around you there's a lot of other people who were in a less fortunate situation.

24:28What I really like about what you're saying is that it is a choice. Exactly. Your perspective. And keep in mind, you know, this is, I don't want to be superficial on this. Let's put aside terrible people. There are people who have a terrible, terrible life situation. And it would be arrogant of me to sit and say, I just choose to, No, I'm just saying within reasonable, normal life. Yeah, it's a choice. And it's just, again, back to what we talked about earlier. It's not that you have to understand it's a choice to blame yourself. It's a choice because if it wasn't a choice, you'd be stuck. So, you know, when you're, you know, cry your eyes out, be annoyed, feel offended, but then understand it's a choice and then try to make a better choice.

25:35You know, like it's a wonderful thing that it is. It would be very sad for all of us if everything was just conditional. I agree with you. I think we should be comparing apples to apples. So comparing you as if you're an apple with another similar apple, I've met a lot of incredibly successful people, high performers of various different walks, of life and many of them they complain how are you i'm not this or not that and maybe to somebody else that has a less fortunate life they would be looking at their lives and feel like well if i had a fraction of the fraction of what you have accomplished or the freedom that you have or the stability so it is very beautiful even though you've lived a very blessed uh life but you've worked very hard to achieve it to hear that you're grateful for everything that happened and also for everything that did not happen and that in its own is a choice how different was the first joe and the jews to what we see right now very it was more pink more and much smaller and much less structure, of course.

26:48It was a very tiny store. So, yeah, absolutely. Very. Same product? Similar product? Yeah, but from a supply point of view and menu point of view, I want to say the same. But the three main categories, sandwich, coffee, and juices, and the same principles that every product is made to your order. So, and then, of course, now, they're much better at you know extending the menu and doing collabs and doing like it's much more dynamic in that sense but also which is which is to me and has always been secondary to really really understanding what it is that makes the ambience tick inside the store because it's not product development that makes you come back five times a week as opposed to once a month um and and um that's entirely a people thing keep in mind i have to this day and my wife complains continuously about it never ever cooked i've not made one meal in my life so you could ask yourself is John the Jews actually food and beverage like I have no clue but is it lifestyle well I just see it as a I see it as a human interaction as as a combination of human relationships that when it's sparkling turns into a certain ambience, which is very, very productive and conducive for business.

28:44I've always found the culture of Joe and the Jews very interesting because I've always defined it as a cool place to be. It didn't matter if I was in France or in the UK or wherever I was in a Joe and the Jews. How did you create that culture and how were you able to preserve it at scale? Yeah. And that's an interesting question. The thing is, I'm very academic or I've been able to become very academic over time about the people side of the business. And this is not easy. You know, I have, you know, a lot of people still inside the business who've been with me since, you know, year two or three or four.

29:34And some of them have, you know, 20 year anniversaries. And the fact is, they have been a part of it and they're living it. And over the years, it's become a natural part of them. But if you ask them this question, some of them may have a difficult time formulating what is it actually, because it's not the music. So what you got to understand is a fundamental perspective on what makes people ignite, what turns them on. And if you deliver a workplace which is limiting in connection to these ignition variables, to expect incredible ambience and incredible human activation is unfair and impossible.

30:32and most companies who do this therefore use more extrinsic variables typical you know you have friday afternoon bar in the office some may even have uh child care um they have a huge summer party and and if everything is very bad they also have a huge christmas party all these things are wonderful and chairs on the top. But if, if Monday morning is not stimulating to your employee, all this eventually doesn't matter. Then you'll end up trying to pay a little more. And suddenly you're competing on something that any of your competitors can just beat you on by paying more. so if you believe that let's uh just to be superficially fast that a certain level of challenge is important for people to feel good if you also feel that you have to challenge people in a way where you're also giving them the opportunity to live up to the challenge so you need to prepare and educate train them in a certain craftsmanship so they can actually execute at the level you're expecting um if you if you manage to position most people with a direct superior who is actually a stimulating motivating leader and not some asshole um and if you make it visible to everyone that there is a certain professional journey to be had within your structure like you can actually improve improve, build capabilities, we will recognize it and promote you.

32:41If these things sound plausible to you, you need to not rob them of these aspects in their daily life. And I'll give you a good example. just to tease another very, very successful company, which I'm also an admirer of. But I, back in the days, had a lot of discussions with the owners of the business because they had a wonderful culture. And I always said to them, listen, you're very successful. Which business was this? Therefore, Prédit Marché. Okay. You're very successful. What you've done, especially in London, UK, is extraordinary. but I believe that is what makes your people feel that there is a certain culture because you have robbed them of every way to excel in your business.

33:40You pre-made the sandwiches so they don't have to do anything. The customer will take the sandwich themselves. All your drinks are in bottles. The customer chooses themselves. Your coffee machine is full automatic so your employees don't have to be able to make coffee. The only thing the employee has to do is to be able to push the cash register. Now that is interesting for 24 or 48 hours. But after that, it becomes the party and it becomes something else because the job is just not demanding enough. They did something else, which I like the principle of though. When they hired people in a certain store, they would allow the team to assess the new hire which is quite a good point like you want obviously the new person to fit very well with the team that's already there and this also gives the employees a certain sense of responsibility wow i'm not just showing up and leaving i'm also determining who's part of the team which also means that if i have said i like this new girl, she's so focused and she seems to be really a good addition to the team.

35:01When I then feel a little hungover on a Saturday morning, I'm not going to call her and tell her that I'm not showing up because I'm sick. I'm actually going to show up and help her out. So there's some aspects of a business which, again, assuming the responsibility, if you have a team that is understimulated, and in this world today, the top aim is typically compliance. if that's the level it's at, you cannot compensate strategically with all these extrinsic factors. You cannot claim to be building a culture. Culture is the interdependence, the pride that comes from having taken on a challenge and proven that you could do it.

36:01In John the Juice, we work a lot with the measure of juices. Of course, it makes a better gross margin that you don't have to pour out juices all the time. But it's also a question of being able to do everything blinded and pour the juice while you look the customer in the eye because you know it's exactly on the dot. And it just brings about, it's not necessary to do that to deliver fresh juice. but if you internally dramatize the capabilities to be able to do it it gives you an ambience in the store that people can feel the second they walk in and yes there's music but it's not because the music it's because of the pride in the team it's really a an employer challenge it's a top management challenge i want to summarize and condense everything you've said because i find is incredibly interesting and fascinating.

37:01So you discussed with the founder of Pretta Mangere. Well, there's one of the things that I don't like. It wasn't the founder, by the way. It was one of the owners from the fund that owned that before. And you have this discussion with them and then they tell you their operating model, which is I'm reducing how much my employees need to think and do, probably because I want to make the experience very homogeneous, whether it's Pretta Mangere in one location or in location 50, you're getting the same sandwich, same taste, same everything. And what you're saying is that, well, if you do that after 48 hours, this same employee would not be excited to come and work for you.

37:36And the way you're combating that in Joe and the Juice is by I've identified three different factors that you've mentioned. So one of them is through trainings. The second one is through leadership, having someone that they admire to work for. And then the third one is through growth, inner trajectory. I can grow within the business and giving them that visibility. So through the trainings, you're still able to preserve that homogeneous experience in Joe and the Juice number one or Joe and the Juice number 30. Through the leadership, they're happy to come and work for somebody that they admire.

38:06And through the growth, you're keeping them long term because they know that they can grow as the business grows. Is that correct? It's correct. It's still slightly superficial, but it's most of it. And for instance, when you're saying they need to have a leader they admire, okay, how do you do that? So it's also your responsibility to equip the store manager with the abilities, the tools to deserve being admired. and as I always talk to our current CEO about and we sit and say this simultaneously in a business like Joe and the Juice as complex as you can build it over time as it grows at the end of the day there's one challenge one challenge only if every store manager ran their Joe and the Juice store as if it was his own or her own it would be unnatural to not have a same-store sales ratio of 110 or 15 a year.

39:11It's actually destructive if you don't improve. If you and I had a coffee shop, it would be impossible for us if we were there eight hours a day every day to not build more loyalty every year. And if you can create this perception, this assessment of responsibility and ignition, as I call it, in the store manager, you will not have any other problems in the business. But it also means you need a different organizational setup. Because what's the typical thing? Ah, we have a good store manager who's really developing his team, who has wonderful results. And we're very realistic about this and in either more or less revenue, depending on whether he does a good job and up every year, this guy's doing a wonderful job.

40:08Now we have a problem over here where another storm is not doing very, you know, good job. And we need to promote this guy at some point. So why don't we make him responsible for both cafes? Now you have suddenly a guy who's been very good on the floor with his team developing this business, who is becoming a manager of two stores by overviewing, controlling, crossing off. It's a completely different job. By the way, nobody knows whether he would have the ability to do that. And in large organizations, this just multiplies. so you'll have one store manager becoming store responsible for three stores then you'll have what an area manager above him you may if you're very lucky have a district manager above him there's probably a country manager maybe there's an operational manager and eventually top management So now you have six, seven levels between top management and the store level, which is, let's face it, at the end of the day, controlling and crossing off.

41:23And if I tell you to do a job and I control you, it is not fair for me to expect this ultimate ignition and ownership on your part. I need to install a different way for you and I to work together. I cannot ask you to run this restaurant incredibly enthusiastically and stimulate it. If I show up twice a week with a sheet of paper and I'm going through whether you have done things the way I asked you to. Because there's no autonomy for you. You're like, why are you even surprised I'm doing a good job? You told me what to do. At some point, I'll go and do my own restaurant where I can have some creative freedom.

42:19But the job here is I'm just doing what you told me to do. And nobody is obviously ignited enough like that. And it's interesting because fundamentally, we're talking about entrepreneurship. And you want that store manager to behave like an entrepreneur, to have the same ignition and fire inside. And what is typical for an entrepreneur? That you don't cross off things because you don't know the business so well enough. So you don't have these things. You have a different approach. Like if you take some of the very close guys to me in Joe and the Juice over the first years and you look at their effort, Like they have worked so hard and so intensely and they're still there in the business for so many years.

43:13Why would they do that? Well, if there's one thing that I offered them, it was a lot of freedom because we didn't have the format yet. So I was like, you know, people do this. Sebastian, fix this, please. And Sebastian would fix it his way. he would find another area that he needed to fix. He felt and tell him, shouldn't I fix this? Of course, go ahead. So that freedom has been a very important factor in the fundamental ignition of the people. And in a larger organization over time, this typically dilutes and disappears because big organizations are afraid. Just comply. Just please do as we tell you.

44:05And no entrepreneur would ever approach the immediate challenges like that. It's a different mindset. And we should not forget that every business that seems to be, in some respect, incredible today, was at some point a very entrepreneurial business. And that's what made it survive. So isn't it wrong to take away what lit that fire initially? Shouldn't we be able to keep that fire alive today? Absolutely, but not by crossing off and controlling. And I'm not talking about being irresponsible. I'm not talking about loosening the dependency on the revenue. It all comes back to that, of course. But there are ways this could be done.

45:06How were you able to protect or preserve to one extent this culture of freedom as you scaled John the Juice?

45:18Well, I think we managed to build an understanding, an approach, and also organizational build some interesting initiatives along the way. For instance, if you believe that building capabilities within your employees is an important aspect, and for many reasons it is, to ignite and stimulate your people, as I'm talking about. Also, to deliver barriers towards competitive businesses. you have to install a certain training mechanism we call it the joe and the juice academy inside the business and why wouldn't you inside your business develop certain capabilities no matter who you hire why wouldn't it always be good to educate people in your way of seeing things to stimulate them, but also to make sure that you protect them inside the company.

46:34Otherwise, you end up, if the position is completely the same as your competitor, they can change. But you don't develop any value in the person the second the person is in the company. That's why some people say it's very important that we hire the right people. and and I was always reluctant to to that expression because the fact is yes there are some people who are incredible let's say it's five or ten percent of the population they will do any job incredible there's not a lot of these people so if you have a people business like Joe and the juices you cannot rely your business on finding these people but what you can do is trying to build a machine that will raise the average of all the rest of us as close to these incredible people as possible.

47:30And that ambition is, I think, beautiful, wonderful. And it keeps you busy. And it keeps the stimulation and the ignition of the people inside the business. It's a very, in my mind it's a very honest approach to to building uh what you're what you're doing that that that that you're you're digging deep you're you're actually you're not just importing a certain resource and applying it you're actually also developing it and it gives it's my experience gives people a much stronger connection to the business over time some of the people now having a 20-year anniversary in Joe and the Jews. I mean, you know, will they ever go somewhere else?

48:19At least they're going to think twice about it. And they will probably also feel a loss if they did, right? That, you know, it's quite beautiful to have that relationship. It doesn't have to only be between people. It can also be between businesses and people. at what maturity stage did you create this training academy was it when you had 10 sites 20 sites uh i forget specifically um some of my some of my guys in the business would be able to answer that more concretely i want to say uh i want to say between yeah what three four five We went from one to two very slowly to three, four, five, six, seven fast.

49:11So it would seem like that would have been, if I hadn't been completely idiot at the time, I would have thought we need to structure an approach here because we actually need a lot of people now. So I would imagine there. And the fact is we never became good enough at it. and it might be one of the things that I regret from stopping as operational in the company that I don't feel I left the company with a strong enough structure around this. It would have been in everybody's interest and favor if I had spent more time on carving this out in wood inside the company. Because there's another aspect that's very interesting about it is also a certain company can only have x amount of areas of focus i think you need to be realistic and humble about the fact that if we want to be the world champion in this specific thing there's something else that we probably either have to ignore even though the category business may normally do that or we should at least respect we won't be champions in that And this means that your specific area of focus becomes the center point of the company, and it gives the company a lot of identity.

50:38So organizationally, you should also prioritize it. Let me give you an example. If training and educating our user teams is the fundamental, most important aspect of the business, who should then decorate the stores? Should there be an outside interior designer coming in with some kind of opinion on their interpretation of the brand? or should the 25 best performing bar managers join in a committee to decide which design they want to work in? Interesting. So I really do believe in this one focus as something that then spills out into any other area of the business. Should product development be done by a separate department or should it be done by the people who are executing the products behind the counter?

51:47To me, it's quite obvious what the answer is. But as you grow and you also include a lot more professional capacity with perspective from outside businesses, these things can get diluted and the understanding can get diluted. And yeah.

52:19Before private equity money came in in 2013, how did you fund the growth of the business? I had at a very early stage, a partner who came in, who funded the money for the store three, four, five. then I had an old very good friend who stepped in after him who funded the store XYZ so we actually took it in in steps like this until the Swedish fund came in in was it 13? 13. I wanted to say 11 okay. In 2009 you've opened your first London site in Regent Street Walk me through that experience of your journey at that point. Well, first of all, everyone would obviously say that to a relatively successful business in Denmark, you go to Sweden or Germany.

53:17Okay. There's an easier cultural fit. There's less distance, whatever. And again, back to my emotional approach, I was just like, I don't fancy going to Germany to develop our business. I love London. And yes, it's going to be much more competitive. It's much more expensive. But there comes the naivety of, yeah, but I think we are competitive. I don't care who we meet next to us on high street. We will manage. And I want to be here. And we live the life like that. We would, yes, open the doors in the morning and close them at some point in the afternoon. But we would then go and have a meeting over a drink.

54:11We would go out and have dinner together. And we would rather do that in London than in Stockholm or Germany. So that's what we did. Completely irrational, to be honest. But on the other hand, probably also important to keep our stimulation and our... You know, obviously it seems like a much more international pitch to try London. And you tell yourself, you look for the arguments to back it up so you don't sound completely stupid. And you say, listen, it's so competitive that if we can do it here, we can do it everywhere. And then you try.

54:51In 2013, things were going very well for you. We had around 50 stores. But you've decided to change directions. the financial institution Valedo Partners came in as a majority shareholder of Joe and the Juice. Why did you decide to sell? I think I remember at the time it was, it looked like we were at a point where we would say, okay, if we should not grow equally, but proportionally, if we should challenge ourselves with a next level of growth, who we need bigger money in. And we obviously at the time talked to many, many different players. And I think at the time, maybe we were also from a management cultural point of view, ready for a little bit of interference and talks with more professional people as part of the ownership.

56:08And yeah, I don't know. I think on your journey, at some point, you need some stimulation from the outside to keep you sharp. and keep, you know. How did this change things for you? Because you were doing what you wanted in the way that you wanted when it came to running the business. And then you have a majority shareholder and financial institution that perhaps comes with more bureaucratic processes to follow. Yeah. Well, I think we were gifted by having some very, very strong initial years with Valero. and that buys you a lot of freedom. So I think, and I actually, I don't think that I am necessarily the easiest entrepreneur to deal with.

57:01But looking back, I think that Valedo probably took the position that, listen, these guys are fired up. They're performing very well. why would we interfere? So we were left, not left with, but we were definitely able to continue our influence and our way of doing things without any kind of, you know, or insisting different approaches or something from from boleto three years later you went from around 50 stores to around 160 and another financial institution came on board general atlantic why did they join um well we were doing very well and and uh and we were probably and and I would hope and think we still are an interesting ticket because we are different.

58:14There is a certain, when we operate well, there is a certain excitement and difference in Joe and the Juice. And I do think that from a conceptual point of view, we have our own little category, to be honest. as much as we all compete for lunch and breakfast and all these things. If you go a little deeper conceptually into things, there's no one who does things like us. Yeah. And I think that the cultural aspect of things made us look, make us look attractive. And again, it just seemed like, okay, we're ready. we're taking another big step we want to turn up the heat and because of our very good relationship with Valedo and our good journey Valedo said this is fine, let's do it if we can stay on a little bit longer I need you to be incredibly honest with me as opposed to until now?

59:24no, but more with you that's a good answer but incredibly honest with yourself in the sense that the next question that I'm going to ask you may be a little bit sensitive. How much of both decisions, exiting with Valedo and General Atlantic, was driven by you feeling perhaps I've worked more than enough throughout the last years and I want to take some money off the table for myself? And how much the decision was driven by we need more capital to grow? If you were to put it in a percentage, was it 80-20 or 100 % one and not the other? um i don't know i think they're very connected um but you're what you were talking about initially here is that you don't want me to tell you that i don't care about money uh i've always been and and through all all aspects of the journey with joe and the jews uh very very motivated by the financial side of things also okay i um i've always wanted it to be something that i could be proud of but i would much rather make a billion than a million yeah so uh there's definitely a limit to how much sacrifice on the financial side i would do for some kind of

1:00:51cultural approach going forward. But I also think I would always convince myself that they walked hand in hand. And therefore, the deals you make with private equity is also a very nice mix of both. You stay in the ownership. You take money off the table. And it continues. But I do think it's okay to be stimulated by financial aspects also. I do think maybe it also gives you a little bit of realism on the journey you have. We started talking earlier this morning about your realism as an entrepreneur. and you want to be very realistic about the money for your business. And maybe it's natural to also be it from a private point of view in that sense.

1:01:54So it's always been important to me. I just always hoped that making money, I would be able to do that while also being proud of what I've done. and and of course I've made money have I made enough I would probably never think that but I've certainly made myself proud like from a from a business brand reputation point of view I do think why do you say never when it comes to making money like it's never enough because I think that's just who I am okay like I don't know maybe I just need to to grow a little older I don't know

1:02:51what is your relationship with money right now? how has it evolved over the years?

1:03:00that's actually a funny question I'm not sure it has developed I don't know I love wonderful things and I do but of course I don't know maybe it gives a little more tighter perspective on when you have a family with my wife and our daughter that it becomes a little more secluded that there's a specific thing with a wonderful house in a certain setting in a certain family setup you would love And besides that, maybe it's a little less important with the size of the rowing boat you may acquire one day. In 2019, you stepped down as a CEO. Why did you step down? I think it was natural.

1:03:58and we did it as, we actually had the thought very much as part of doing the deal making with the American Fund. So, and if I look back, I probably think I was very ready to be relieved of the very operational responsibilities. and I mean it's been 20 or almost 20 years very intense years not that I ever found it terribly hard I was very very very one eye focused on Joe and the Jews and the rest of the things in my life were absolutely secondary so but I was gifted about the passion and the friendships and the cultural aspect of the business. So I literally never, as I remember it, never felt burned out or tired.

1:05:04I was very stimulated despite us working around the clock. But that's the value that comes from being very passionate and stimulated about your project. and I think maybe at the time there in 2019 it was like okay I'm probably ready to just step down and and and have someone else take charge from now on You didn't fully step down because you adopted a different role within the businesses which was being a chairman until 2023. But then in 2023, General Atlantic gained complete control, almost complete control of the business. And then you left also as a chairman. How did this feel?

1:06:01Well, I do think that, I do think everything is, it felt quite natural in our journey, really. but I also think that the time the years with COVID you know were tough on many businesses not least in our category and and to be able to get through that is an accomplishment in itself sadly many businesses small and large you know really didn't get through it and it was an unprecedented challenge. So I think for us to be able to carry the business through that period and come out on the other side without really having lost size or perspective or ambition was very, very strong. And I think it was quite natural.

1:07:04It's always in the cards that General Atlantic would take over eventually and it was also very natural for me to step down as part of it I think there's a journey towards an IPO next year which naturally means that General Atlantic builds up a more professional board and have certain eyes on which capacities they want within the board and so I actually do think it's quite it natural funnily enough it it means that i actually never had not that i feel completely out but at like a goodbye with john the juice like i never had like a goodbye event or see you later or things just naturally materialized that way.

1:08:10So that's probably, I think, hadn't we all been so focused on pulling the business through COVID and, you know, what's going on, what's going to happen? I guess at some point we would have planned some kind of see you later. uh here's here's our new ceo of course

1:08:39did you did you feel like you lost something when you let that part of your life or you even go yeah no uh but but i also don't feel gone like i i still feel very much and i i'm obviously part of the ownership financially and I feel emotionally an owner of Joan the Jews. I always do that. But I'm also maybe not, in hindsight, not that, like, I don't romanticize much things like that. and it's a little bit like again like the way you know I've been gifted by so much that for me to somehow dramatize the fact that I didn't have a goodbye party in Joan the Juice that would be very spoiled wouldn't it I mean it is all quite nice and it's thriving And, you know, we have a CEO, which is important to me, obviously, a CEO who is very loyal and believing in the cultural side of the business, who has a lot of dialogue and keeps close a lot of the guys who's been there for many, many, many years.

1:10:14So I think aside from me not cutting out a certain structure, I think that the cultural aspect and consideration, sensitivity is very much alive, which is obviously a thing that if that wasn't the case, I would be sad. But so, you know, I really feel I should just be very happy.

1:10:43Casper, you have built a remarkable business over 500 locations internationally around the 2 billion valuation but in order for you to create such an enormous beast of a business you've given your life to it what has your entrepreneurial journey cost you personally? again I don't really romanticize about it and I feel that my journey has been very natural to me like I am a few years after not being fully involved in the business I have a newborn daughter and and a wife that I just married and and and and we have a wonderful loving relationship So I can't see how I could somehow feel something was left out.

1:11:38If I didn't have my family now and at some point I would start rationalizing that that was because of my invested effort in John the Jews, then potentially I guess I would be missing out and feeling, you know, did I do the right thing? but it's been it's been very natural for me to have this hardcore interest and devotion to the business and then as you asked a few times over the years included this financial partner included the next leaving the business operationally it's been quite natural and and i've been very lucky that it's also been time very well with me finding my wife and and and us you know developing our family so i i i it sounds terrible but but i i just really do not feel that i can like there is not one single thing i would change how has your definition of success evolved over the years my definition of success earlier was more materialistic more performance related i would think that today that part of the definition would be the same but as i mentioned earlier maybe i'm also growing into understanding that it really doesn't matter.

1:13:24Like, as I said, who cares? So there is a certain, I don't want to sound too boring, but there is a certain, like it is a relief to understand that all the issues you have, again, not taking serious things into consideration. All the things that you walk around in a daily, annoying day or work day or whatever you're doing, all the things, it doesn't matter. Nobody cares. And as proud as I am and as radically important I've always felt that you're in the juice is, nobody cares. And I don't even know if maybe for some reason in some perspective it's important if Elon Musk gets us to Mars or not but at the end of the day it doesn't matter does it so maybe that is the development of my success criteria has been a little bit like it's fun to be ambitious about this this and this but it's also okay to understand that it doesn't matter so what matters

1:14:50if you can have a nice wonderful family life

1:15:01wonderful friends and a wonderful restaurant to have a martini in and you can live a life without serious illnesses that I think is what it's all about hmm are you a happy man Caspar I am definitely but I'm also I'm not happy I'm happy but I'm not happy go lucky I'm I'm very skeptic. I'm very skeptical on things that get presented to me, on situations in life,

1:15:56which can give you a black perspective on situations that are wonderful. wonderful you know um this situation is just incredible and i love my situation right now oh my god i hope it doesn't change like if maybe it's not very healthy to think oh my god i hope it you know you can be grateful without necessarily imagining it would change

1:16:31but then again you know find and have your mind play those games with you but put it aside and realize yes I am very very happy would you say you're a person that is able to live in the present

1:16:52yes without being hysterical like without you know losing a reasonable perspective holistically but yeah I think so I can be impatient and I am too impatient but I do think I do think I am I am I am able to hurry and be busy and be impatient, but at the end of the day, really enjoy the dinner and my situation. We've talked extensively about your past and your present. What do you want to do with the next years of your life? well I wanna I wanna enjoy my wonderful family and I wanna you know obviously be a a loving wonderful part of seeing my daughter grow I wanna see my my my wife's business you know she has Pilates app she just launched her own new platform on the app, which is, it's a very interesting business and very interesting for you and I who have done restaurants to see a different scalable version of a business.

1:18:29But for me to enjoy my family and yeah, I don't know, maybe I'll throw myself at something else again at some point. But again, it'll have to be very, very something that I'm emotionally attached to. I would do a restaurant, a nice restaurant, and I would for sure, you know, do it out of the criteria of me wanting to sit in the bar myself. I wouldn't be looking at some kind of hole in the market and then we can get, you know, I might even keep the door closed the first three weeks and pretend that it's full and just turn up the music and hope somebody is lining up outside. does life feel slower right now for you um it is starting to feel slower and and i actually talked to my my wife a little bit about that now and then that you know when people have to say something about what what is one of your bad characters and what what don't you like in your own thinking and people talk about this, I have a lack of patience.

1:19:38And they actually feel that it's a compliment to themselves because they feel it means they get things done and they're very cutthroat and whatever. When I look back, I've definitely been too busy and I'm not saying too busy to be happy, but too busy to deliver ultimate quality in every aspect, in every decision. And I am too impatient. And I actually do think that impatience is something for business people to really take serious because it does make you react unnecessary in certain situations and it does make you deliver less quality than you should in other aspects of stuff. I actually think it's something that one should be aware of if you have a natural tendency to be busy.

1:20:44You've mentioned your wife several times without me asking throughout our conversation on and off camera. What does your wife represent to you beyond the conventional definition of what a romantic partnership is? Who is she to you?

1:21:03Again, I'm very spontaneously, intuitively approaching this, both with my wife, also with my daughter. I don't sit around and package and think about a format and a structure. There are certain things that I like we plan, but I'm very intuitively approaching her in our life. And that also means that I, again, back to my patients, that I'm very lucky that she is, I typically say, She's making it easy for me because I haven't second thought once about her. And I ultimately don't think that I'm maybe the best person to balance second thoughts. Like I'm relatively sensitive in that area that I can be a little dramatic about what I think.

1:22:10and what you know so i wouldn't be uh i don't think i would be the best partner if i didn't feel completely in it um and i haven't had to deal with that so far with my wife she's uh it seems like she's a good fit for me and and i can intuitively approach it and be very much in love and be

1:22:41like it's it's not something that I am planning and it's the same thing with my daughter I don't I haven't thought a lot about becoming a dad as a new existence and what would that do to me and my life I'm just taking a day at a time and it seems quite natural and it seems like we're doing reasonably well with it. So can't be all wrong. And it feels wonderful. Beautiful. You know, so I don't know. Yeah. But it's a wonderful project to also have in your life. And I actually don't think it's bad to think about it as a project even because it actually deserves the attention that a project deserves.

1:23:38So, yeah, maybe you should talk to her about it.

1:23:45Caspar, my last question to you is a question that we call a signature question at Thriving Minds because it is the only question that we ask every single guest regardless to their profession or what they do for a living or their background. Caspar, if you had to compress all your knowledge into one essential piece of advice that we all must implement in our daily lives, what would it be? I would be reluctant to give anybody advice like that.

1:24:20I really don't think I have a great life advice. also because an advice is very dependent on which person you're talking to imagine i i should actually ask my good old friend uh morton who's a philosopher about some beautiful answer to this question he would one he would have loved he would have talked an hour and a half just about that when I think about this question I think about the opposite of answering something perfect just answering something real can I come back on a different episode you just asked me that one question like a very brief episode I'll ask you one last question another question then which I also really want the answer to when your daughter grows older and she watches this episode what would you like her to understand of you beyond who you are as the John the Jews founder

1:25:41I'm very skeptical about like anyone who answers anything of this I would challenge immediately I just don't want to sound like a fucking cliche it's an interesting question which I simply need to think about maybe I should start thinking a little more existentialistic about some of these things

1:26:14I don't know because I wanted to be so precise. And that means not asking for too much, promising too much, or being too generic. Like I have a fundamental drive towards being different.

1:26:39Like back to the vision statements in a company, there's nothing worse. than a company with a vision statement that anchors nowhere. And by the way, the five competitors have the same words. You know what the vision is for Joe and the Jews, by the way? No. To get on the cover of Rolling Stone magazine. Really? Who came up with that? I did. And I actually had a chairman once who looked at me and said, but that can't be the vision. well I'm the founder I'm pretty sure I know what the vision is but obviously in his books that didn't apply there's a reason for it it's not all you know words it's in the context of John the Jews now it seems like I'm talking myself out of the emotional stuff what's the best advice you have ever received

1:27:40none I think that the most important, yeah, here it is. I would want, I would want my daughter to think, dad and mom taught me to be resourceful. I think resourcefulness is for any human is the most critical survival characteristic there is. like your ability to somehow find a way out of any situation where you feel you are determining your direction. Beautiful. I thank you so much for coming. I enjoyed this conversation at so many levels, but it's very beautiful to put a face behind a brand that at least myself has been exposed to for so many years and I've consumed their products so many times but it has been more beautiful to see that behind so much precision there's somebody very, very human behind that wants to feel, that wants to empower people that wants to flow, that will not overthink everything while at the same time we need to be very good at what we're doing.

1:29:26And finding that balance in between and seeing it from you has been incredibly inspiring. So thank you for being inspiring outside this room through all your work and thank you for being inspiring in this room and today with me. Thank you. It was a pleasure.