Former Soho House COO: How to Build Iconic Brands - Martin Kuczmarski

0:00Our job is to make everyone who comes in at least 5 % happier. We deliver what has become probably the biggest global membership club in the world. Martin Kuchmarski is a hospitality entrepreneur best known for helping scale Soho House from a four-location startup to a global lifestyle brand with over 60 venues and 120 ,000 members. Since stepping down from COO in 2022, he has launched high-end London restaurant The Dover and founded hospitality company Difficult Name. And still today, people think hospitality is hard. And I disagree. It's not hard. If you make it hard, it's hard. Who said that chef needs to be rude?

0:40Who said that it has to be long hours? Who? Where's the book? No one. If your brain is thinking about money first, you are a wrong question for the job. Your job is to make someone else happier. Because the first question they asked me said, how many times we need to turn this table to make money? I said, you're not part of the Dover. Go. But if you tell me, Martin, tonight I'm taking you to Michelin star restaurant, I will gladly decline it. Because I think they're boring. Is the Michelin guide a bit rigged? I noticed that the old school hospitality slowly, slowly is disappearing. And I said, I think I have to do something about it.

1:26And that's why I opened the Dover. The business grows. There are struggles along the way. What was the most challenging milestone of that journey?

1:42Martin, if I had a look at your CV, what would I see?

1:50Oh, good question. Good opening question. I think you will see a young, passionate guy who is in love with hospitality. You were always in love with hospitality. Always. I love people. And I think many people go into hospitality because, I don't know, they might love food, they might love service. They sit as a money-making career. I went into hospitality for one reason. I love making people happy. You know, when I go home and I said, you know what, today I've made someone happier. If he's members of our team or a customer, I've done my job. So I think the happiness of others was always my priority.

2:36And hospitality is that for me. I want to understand what led you to that mindset. Take me back to the beginnings, your youth. You're half Polish, half Italian, a child of divorced parents. How did this shape your personality? Yeah, look, I was born in Poland a long, long time ago. I'm 50. And my parents divorced. My mom moved to Italy, a single mom. She got remarried with my stepfather, Italian, and at the age of four I moved to Italy. So I grew up, I studied in Italy. When I was growing up my stepfather always said to my mom, I said, this guy likes people. Look how good he is with people. You know, he needs to be in hospitality.

3:31And my stepfather used to own a couple of restaurants in Tuscany. So he kind of tried to push me. He needs to go to catering school, hotel school, hospitality. And my mom said, my son to be a waiter? No. My son to be a chef? No. He needs to be a doctor. He needs to be a tech guy. He needs to be a finance guy. He needs to be a surgeon, not a waiter. No, no. Anyway, my stepfather was very persuasive and he pushed me. So I did kitchen school in Italy. I did all the studies in Italy. And that half Polish, half Italian blood, especially today in hospitality, I think is a brilliant mix. And I can say it because I'm both of them.

4:19Polish are quite direct, hardworking. There's no filters with Polish people. They're like, boom, shut in. They're very ambitious. So I think that really helps you as a base of hardworking approach to hospitality. And then you have Italian blood, and that Italian approach is a little more, hello, hi, it's more glamorous, more friendly, more open, more easygoing. It's all about food, about being at a table. So I think the combination of both characters, of the Polish blood and Italian growing up, it really helped me in hospitality. The back of house on hospitality needs to be organized, needs to be structured, needs to be precise.

5:12But in the front, you have to put the theater on, you have to put the show on. And that show comes from the heart, from Italian hospitality. So I think that the background of having Polish-Italian really, really, really helped me. And coming, you mentioned, coming from a divorced family, my mom remarried, and when she moved to Italy, she was a single mom. It just gives me more strength, more strength, more power, and a little determination to succeed, to push forward and not look backwards. Beautiful. A lot of people, they open a restaurant or they enter the hospitality industry because they want to pay usually either their bills.

6:01Typically, waiters or junior chefs, they do that. And some other people, they just think that they cook a great lasagna and they're going to try themselves in the market. In your case, you were good with people and you wanted to make people happy. At what age did you direct that into hospitality in particular? So when I started studying catching school and hospitality in Italy, I was 16, 17. And in summer holidays, all my mates, they used to go nightclubs, beach clubs, you know, partying, dancing on the tables. And I was 16, 17. I said, okay, you guys go enjoy it. I was doing seasons. I was working.

6:47In Italy? In Italy. In Italy, starting from, you know, luxury hotels. My background is luxury hotels, five-star, and Michelin star, you know, jacket and tie, shaved, you know, twice a day. But, you know, when my mates were dancing and partying... Sorry, one second. They asked you to shave twice a day? I'll come back to that, yes. That just blew my mind. That was the back of all day's Michelin approach. You have to be sharp. I remember, and I come back to my youth of 17 years, I remember I was working at Purcell Brothers in Montpellier, south of France, Michelin style. And I was at the bottom of my career.

7:31I was ironing tablecloths. the tablecloth needs to be perfect so you iron on the top and you steam on the side of the tablecloth and my mentor and I've always been precise, I've always been well groomed I take care of myself especially in hospitality you have to look apart but in those days, I'm talking to you about 30, 35 years ago my mentor was coming to see me and I said stand up so I stand up I said show me your face, look at me and of course now I have beard and things change after I joined the storehouse. And I said, oh, you shave, but can I test it? And he took a piece of paper when you take the order for the customer and he was like, and if you could hear, I said, you haven't shaved properly, go back.

8:19But I always shaved. But anyway, so that was... Were you happy in that environment? Ironing tablecloths, having your chef, sorry, your boss telling you such a thing? I was super happy for one reason, I was learning. and you know when I said that my friends and colleagues they were dancing, enjoying summer I was learning all my career even when I opened the Dover by end of 2023 any choice I've made is to learn how can I learn how can I absorb more from this world and I'm strongly believer if you have this approach and you keep learning things will happen in your life So, yeah, I was happy because I was not just learning how to iron tablecloth.

9:05I was a sponge. I was learning, I was ironing tablecloth, but with my eyes and ears and everything. I was looking around. I said, oh, this guy is doing this. This chef is chopping that carrot that way. That manager behaves like this. That leader speaks like this to the team. So I was hungry for knowledge. And that helped me who I am today. To follow your passion, especially at such a young age, I think the parents' approval is important. Your 16-year ironing tablecloths. Was your mom supportive? My mom was very supportive. We came from a normal family. I was lucky. I remember when I moved to London for the first time and I left and I came back and I used to live on the top of Hyde Park Hotel in Nicebridge that was before Mando Oriental you know all those used to be Lord Forte Hotel, it was exclusive collection by Forte Hotels, before Rocco Forte Hotels so it was a luxury hotel, five star and our accommodation was quite luxurious because we had the best view accommodation site was shit oh I shouldn't say that but no we had we had this room size of this space and there was three of us in this space bathrooms were in the corridor so you had to queue for your bathroom but we were on the 9th floor of the Hyde Park Hotel overlooking Hyde Park so I was thinking I couldn't take pictures but you had maybe Polaroid at that time I said to my mum I said, look, I know I'm overlooking Hyde Park.

10:50But I remember my... How old were you? I was 19, 19, 20. And I remember my weekly wage was 19 pounds. And my contribution to the accommodation was 15 pounds. So I had nothing. So my mom and myself, they were helping me. They were helping me just for that. They didn't help me, okay, you want to go out? You have to earn. You have to save. But if you need help for your accommodation or to eat, we can help you. But I was never spoiled. I was always kind of put on the edge even by my parents. I always knew that I can pick up the phone, I can write a letter to my mom and she'll be there. So you're 19 years old.

11:45You're following your passion. but you're making less than 20 pounds a week. Did you have any doubts at that moment? At some point, did you think, well, is this the right path for me because it's not paying well, even if you love it? Did I? Yes, I had many doubts. I had many doubts, but I knew that that was a career for me. You know, if I fast forward a couple of years down the line, again, my friends and colleagues who I met, during my career I'm a member you know and if they come to London or if I went to Italy on a holiday you know we go out for dinner and you know I was taking cash to put you know on the table I can't think how many Italian leaders I have some of my colleagues had American Express you know Platinum Cartier they said what's this can I see the card I've never seen this card before because they have chosen their career path based on financial success You know, I'm going to go to this hotel or to this restaurant or because I've got so much tips, I can get so much money.

12:51I always choose to learn and absorb as much as possible. I had many, many, many doubts. Many doubts, am I going to be successful? Can I reach what I want to reach? I never had doubts on hospitality. I always knew I love hospitality. You know, I was the first one in this little room in Hyde Park Hotel to wake up and the last one to go to bed. because even if I finished shift, I was at the back of the house observing what's happening in the evening in the restaurant. You know, if the matriarch was carving, you know, the beef or something, I was like, how does he carve? How does he look? How is his dress?

13:28So I was always really hungry to that. So I had no doubts. I had no doubts on hospitality. I had doubts on my success. I had doubts, yes, of course. Right. But how did you define success back then? It was definitely not financial. No, I think success by then was progression. You know, if I started ironing tablecloth and suddenly, I remember when I joined Heidspark Hotel, you know, after ironing tablecloths in South of France, my first job was to do Tos Melba. You know, the Tos Melba, very thin, you know, Melba. And I was not allowed to go to front of house because I was not good enough. you know my manager said look you have to stay at the back and if someone order smoked salmon you have to do toast melba and you know toast melba you put through the toast machine then it comes and then you have to cut the top and the bottom and I remember it was so busy those days in high progress I was cutting so much that all my hands will cut here but I said you know what three months ago I was ironing tablecloths today I'm cutting toast maybe tomorrow I can be in the front and I knew there was a progression and so the doubts were disappearing because I always look on the progression and after a couple of months I moved to the front of house I was carrying the trays I didn't touch the table I was not allowed to speak to the customer but I was in front of the restaurant and I was like I feel proud I had different uniforms I had this white shirt and a black beautiful jacket and I said oh my god I'm in the restaurant with the tray so I think progression was my success and it was a very short success because if I progress to one step, I think, okay, what's next?

15:11Now I'm cutting the tray. When I'll be able to take the order and speak to the customer? When I take the order and speak to the customer, when will I be able to manage the person who's taking the order? So I always see the success as a next progression. That's so interesting. I was having a conversation recently with my fiancé about purpose. Congratulations. Thank you. about purpose. And different people do different things for different reasons. But ultimately, the common denominator that acts as a fuel for us to keep moving forward is purpose. It seems that in your case, purpose was related to progression and also very related to learning.

15:54And that was back then. If we fast forward to today, on your 50s, how does purpose... Thank you for reminding me. how does purpose and success look like today for you they're two different things but they link together you know the purpose and success I mean let let me start with purpose I think we are in in this earth for very short period of time for a limited period of time. I call it, we borrow time. And I think that my purpose is, I always wanted to succeed in hospitality. I always wanted to be, even at a young age, I said one day I want to be at the top of the biggest hospitality organization.

16:48And my path was now from Four Seasons to Forte Hotels to Soho House, to now to Dover. And at Soho House, I achieved that purpose. I want to be on the top of that line. And me and Nick, we are the drivers. So the purpose is really in this short period of time that we are here on this earth, to really make a bend in hospitality. Because I love hospitality. This is the only thing I know. Ask me to do something else, I'll be useless. I'll try, I'll pretend that I'm good. But hospitality, this is what I love. What do you mean by making a bend? example we opened the Dover yes and you know because you used to have fresh aton on that street and Mayfair has changed we can have a dedicated episode about that by the way I'm happy to join and say how bad it is which is strange Mayfair used to be an elegant chic part of Long Island And it's unfortunate because it really started changing by the time he opened one of, in my opinion, the best restaurants in London, the Dover.

18:00It's just wrong timings in the wrong location. But the overall experience is fantastic. But yeah, continue. And, you know, the band in hospital, look, you heard my background. I've come from nothing and I've achieved something. And still today, people think hospitality is hard. And I disagree. It's not hard. If you make it hard, it's hard. If you root in the kitchen, it's hard. If you're aggressive to your team, it's hard. If you make your people, your team working 80 or 100 hours a week, it's hard. But it doesn't have to be. Why? Who said it has to be? Who said that chef needs to be root? Who said it has to be long hours?

18:41Who? Where's the book? No one. So when I opened the door, I said, I want all the team who works with me, not for me with me they have the life if you want to be a podcaster be podcaster if you want to be a yoga teacher be yoga teacher if you want to be a model be a model if you want to be photographer be a photographer have different choices of your career and will provide the timing that is suitable to you i'm not gonna tell you you have to walk this hours this is a split shift this is late shift whatever you tell me when can you work and i'll adapt myself because things change and do you think that's feasible at scale because perhaps with one one restaurant it's visible but at scale with multiple sites it's more challenging i think i think you can i think you can and and that's not i think your question answered my uh my bent in hospitality and yeah with dover with really micro, micro space, we've made that bent because the success of the Dover is simple.

19:48It's very, very simple because it's a small restaurant, we serve penarabiata, we're not over price, we have nice service, we're kind, but people forget these things. And I think with the Dover, I wanted to go backwards. I wanted to look after people and for me, people number one, our teams. So when we open, even today, I can tell you now, we are one of the best paying employers in London, without doubt. Before the service charge change in UK, we are the one who giving all the service charge. Service charge is not mine, and not the owner's service charge. Customer gives service charge, it's called service charge, because you provide the service.

20:30So give it to the staff. Why 99 % of the restaurant before the load change, they kept it to make the profit better completely wrong so morally incorrect so we are the first one to do that we are the first one to close two days a week we are the first one maybe not to do too many lunches we just hold in the evening service so if you are a young guy who starts in hospitality you can have your life during the day and so from members of staff we made that little bend you know little bend from customer perspective every you've been to Mayfair, you have a few restaurants you know, everything that opens in Mayfair is like adding up you know, if you have black coat someone's going to have black coat with caviar, if someone have black coat with caviar, someone have black coat on steroids and maybe silver plate and white gloves and what you did with the Dover you went backwards, I said, let's be simple hospitality is not that difficult, people make it difficult and hospitality is to make people happy.

21:37If you, I remember when we were employing our teams, some of the staff who didn't succeed to be part of the team. Because the first question they asked me, said, how many times we need to turn this table to make money? I said, you're not part of the dollar. Go. If your brain is thinking about money first, of course it's not a charity. Of course it's economic. You are a wrong person for the job. your job is to make someone else happier. And our brief at the Dover, even today, every day, tonight, I'm wearing this jacket, I'll be on the floor. You know, we will be talking to our teams and we say, your job, our job is to make everyone who comes in at least 5 % happier.

22:21If you come already at the Dover happy, make sure that you make Alberto happy plus. If you come miserable, make sure that you like Alberto miserable minus. And it happened with the Dover. You know, there's a lot of, you know, we're the first one, you know, New York Italian food existed for since Prohibition era, you know. And so we haven't reinvented. But suddenly everyone is opening New York Italian in London. You know, okay, now it's New York and French. Okay, fine, whatever. So we've made that bent. But bent was really to improve the perception of hospitality. It was not, you know, to win another award or to be in front of the, Times Magazine that was not the purpose the purpose was how me as a person who comes from very basic beginners I can improve the perception of hospitality from members of the staff to the customer that was the purpose it's very interesting what you're saying and I can identify myself for our company with similar values that you're applying in your business and it's so interesting But we landed to those conclusions because we were drawing from our strategy consulting experience.

23:35So I profoundly agree with you that the ultimate target, the ultimate goal is to have your customer happy. You need to provide an experience that makes the customer happy and have fun for a period of time. And depending on how your team is motivated or if they're happy or unhappy, that will dramatically impact the customer experience. And as you were mentioning, so perhaps someone is very financially motivated, so you might be the wrong person for the Dover. As we grew our company and now employing hundreds of people, we started to identify that each employee, obviously and naturally, they have different traits and different personalities.

24:16Obviously, we could not start putting in a big catalog all the different personalities that we believe that we need because, you know, it could be endless. But we need to narrow it down into perhaps two different types of people based on what motivates them. So in the recruitment process, we have specific questions that will define this and that will change the course of how you work with us. Because we will motivate you in one aspect or another. So aspect number one is are you intrinsically motivated? So perhaps you're here and especially waiters that work in Mayfair. And if you're distributing the service charge and also the tips in Mayfair, they're quite higher than in other boroughs of London.

24:54that are extrinsically motivated, not intrinsically, meaning that they're there to make money, as much money as possible. If somebody else, another restaurant comes and pays them more, they will leave you. And then you have another group of employees, which unfortunately still in the hospitality space, there are less of this type of employees, which are intrinsically motivated. So like when you started learning about hospitality, they loved the industry. they wanted to learn, they wanted to grow from an internal point of view. So if you segment these two people, and this is something that we have clearly seen, and you give them what each of them want, because I don't think one is better than the other, but ultimately it's up to, let's say, the management to be able to give them what they need to perform at their best.

25:42Number one, the customer is going to feel that experience in a much more satisfactory way. And then number two, your rotation of staff becomes quite smaller, which, as you know very well, it's incredibly important for retention and training costs and so on. Now, you have a combination of two types of experiences, which I find fascinating. On one hand, you have practical experience, five-star hotels, Michelin restaurants, being one of the top executives in the world's largest members club, but also you have academic experience because you've attended Cornell University. most of my friends they can understand what a law degree will teach you even if there are no lawyers an engineering degree will teach you or a medicine degree but if i ask them what do you think they will teach you in hospitality they might not really know they might think oh they're gonna show you how to fold napkins what would you tell them what is it that they taught you Well, look, I went to Cornell.

26:45And my approach, and I come back to Cornell and learning at school or in academies, I did the Academy of Trade and Tourism in Trento, which is North Italian Academy, and Cornell, of course. So, look, when you go, let's say Cornell, one of the best top universities in the world and huge in hospitality, really big in hospitality. You don't go to Cornell to show you how to do vodka martini. You don't go to Cornell to teach you good manners. You have to have them. You have to know how to do vodka martini already. You have to have common sense. What Cornell teaches you, and depending on how you approach, First of all, you have an amazing lineup of teachers, people who do the lectures, people who actually are present in Cornell.

27:45So you, as a person who attends Cornell, you have to be able to suck as much as possible information from their experiences. so it's not just you know a teacher will come to the classroom and read a paragraph on hospitality that should have been done in past but especially Cornell I remember when I went and at that time I was I was working in New York at the the Four Seasons Hotel and you know shopping in and out you know with rented car you know little little car in the in the Cornell campus I got lost in corner campus i was looking at where's the campus you know i was like for one hour and i was afraid to ask direction at those time you didn't have the you know apple maps or nothing and i was for one hour i was driving in the campus and i said fuck sorry swearing again i opened the window i said excuse me where's the corner university and this lady passing by probably one of the teachers said you are in the corner university i said oh because it was huge so i remember when i was at the Cornell, you know, we, um, on my training course, we had probably 30, 30 people, uh, people like, like me and probably I was the most junior one.

28:57You know, I remember I had, you know, I was just kind of, uh, on management layer of my career and I was sitting next to the CEO of McDonald's, uh, of operating officer of McDonald's. And he was telling me, oh, you know, last week we did two quarters of a million covers. I said, oh my God, I'm struggling with two covers. And so you are surrounded by 30 high-level professionals. And I think during the break time, when you have your tea or coffee or your lunch or just really a social activity, you draw your length from the experiences. That's number one. Number two, the teachers and the people who conducted the lecture, they're not just academic teachers.

29:43I remember there was a gentleman who used to be one of the youngest general managers of Penisola Hotel in Beverly Hills, which I always like, oh my God, this is an icon. So I was, you know, he was teaching about technicality of hospitality, but at the same time he was giving real life example. And for me, studying hospitality needs to be mixed with practical things. I was never that person that I need to study and just close myself and read the books. I wanted to read the book, but then put it in practice or get something in practice and actually check if that happened in the history or something.

30:23So I think combination of both being practical, being academic and have people who leave that experience before you. That's what you can learn from, especially from Cornell University. And Cornell takes all these academics and all these people from different backgrounds in one room. So I think that was the big success of Cornell. Do you think you would have been as successful if you didn't study hospitality at university? Good question. Make me think. Yes, I think I had to study. Because he opened my brain. He opened my mind. it challenged me when I was at the Cornell I told you earlier I was the most junior one and I was like I'm really behind the bus here so it motivated me it gave me discipline but also it gave me a little bit of confidence I'm at the Cornell so yeah I think studying is essential as long as it's combined with practical experience

31:38Did it help you also land better jobs? Yes. Let's talk about those better jobs. So as we've covered, you worked in various different Michelin star restaurants. And I think the average person imagines to an extent how a typical day in a Michelin star restaurant looks like, mainly because they probably have seen a TV show from Gordon Ramsay. I was about to say. Okay, describe me a normal day in a Michelin star restaurant. So you enter in the morning and what happens? Well, depending on the shift you work in, but no, first of all, you wake up in the morning and you have to be grateful that you are awake.

32:23You have to be super groomed. You have to be clean, super groomed. So, you know, it might sound quite pretentious, but you have to get ready. You have to look after yourself. You know, you have to have haircut that, you know, the hair doesn't go above your color. You know, you have to be shaved. You have to have manicure done. I mean, not manicure that you sit in some, you know, nail salon, but not take care of yourself. Have clean, clean, clean hands, you know, have your posture, your shoulder should be like this. It should be like this. So I think the morning preparation was essential before you actually walk in because Michelin star has changed.

33:01I'm talking about 30 years ago, which was white tablecloth, candles, double-breasted jackets. Today, you can have Michelin star, there's no tablecloth. So there's a different perception of Michelin star. But those times, Michelin star were like a theater show. You had to be on the stage. So even before you open to the customer, you were already on the stage because your colleagues observe you and your mentor observe you, your manager observe you and you were spreading that attitude towards. So from the beginning, you had to be prepared, you have to be well-groomed, you have to be clean, you have to have right attitude and be super professional, super focused.

33:46So you come in in the morning, depending on what your job was. Sounds like the military. It was. It was very big, big, kind of super precise. And I was in front of, always in front of house. And I remember when I, let's say the Purcell brothers in Montpellier, you know, I start in the morning. First of all, you know, I would check the restaurant, you know, from the night before, you know, really, okay. is the restaurant has been cleaned properly or the night cleaners or our team who close the restaurant. So I make the list of the things. Oh, I noticed this is something missing here. You know, those cushions are not properly done.

34:27I see some breadcrumbs on the tables. So I make huge, huge, huge, huge list. And then you had the list what you need to get ready for lunch service. You know, how many cutlets you need, how many, I don't know, glasses you need. and then you start hiring tablecloth and but no, each tablecloth I'm sure you know, because you know you're in the same industry, each tablecloth you know, when there's a line in the middle had to face the entrance, because when the customer walks in, you know, it's at the site level, you know, so you had so you know, I remember you putting the tablecloth in the way, okay, is that the right you know, direction of the tablecloth, so tablecloths were coming first of all, you have to clean the restaurant you know breadcrumbs everything then you put the tablecloth in the right direction those times there were three tablecloths at the dover we have three tablecloths one is you know to to to stop this i know they told me not to do it but i'm gonna do it anyway you know because there's no noise you know so there was one tablecloth second tablecloth was a very long tablecloth all the way done.

35:34And those tablecloths in old days were made long in, especially in, you know, in late 1800, you know, when the ladies had this big skirt. So when they sat, I think, and they crossed legs, you know, those tablecloths help to cover the lady's legs. So a lady was never exposed. That was the history of long tablecloth. So you put your long tablecloth and then you put the shorter buckloaf, which was the one that covers the stains, you know, if it happens. But each of those had to be ironed. And you ironed on the top and the one on the side was steamed. So once you've done this, then you start cleaning the cutlery.

36:15And in each partition of cutlery, okay, I need 54 forks. And, you know, I need 54 knives. and it was like cleaning, cleaning with gloves because they're all in silver. You don't want to put any stains. Once you've done the cutlery, you start doing with the glasses. You change your gloves because you're touching the silver and now you're touching the crystal. So it was a military, military operation. And once you finish preparation, you had your break. You had your break. You recompose yourself. You change. You've never been allowed. Today is allowed, which is strange. when you prepare the restaurant, you can be in your T-shirt, you can be in your private clothes.

36:58In the old days, you had a uniform to prepare the restaurant. And then before the service starts, you change to the kind of performance theater uniform. So now you go, you have your lunch first, you brush your teeth, you refresh yourself. I never smoked, so I had no problem with smoking. And then you change in your uniforms that you are in front of the customer. And then the service started, and before the service started, it was half an hour of daily pray. But pray in brackets, pray was not praying, but it was really organization, like militia survey. Okay, Martin, you're doing this job and only this job.

37:40Like really specific, one, two, three, four, that's it. Another, you know, Alberto, you're doing this job and only this job. And it was like ticking. It was incredible, really, really fantastic. but it was quite boring because I had not much soul and that's why I moved away from Michelin stars Fascinating What does it take to get a Michelin star in this day and age?

38:10A friend of mine used to be one of the oldest one of the longest running CEO of Michelin stars in the old days It was not easy. You get this first start for the quality of the food. The second start is the food and approach and the service. And the third start is just really innovation, service and food and how you push the bundles. I think today, which I think is a good thing, Michelin Guide has changed. You open up to more doors. you can see in specifically let's say we live in London there's a lot of Michelin restaurants that are they don't have tablecloth you know you have young guys with tattoos and serving you with t-shirts which is fine the world has changed do you agree with that change?

39:13do I agree with that change? I think I think I agree with evolution of Michelin star guide. But the way Michelin stars are given today, I don't agree. I think that they often they're done for good benefits and to a lot of people they deserve it. And lots being given just because they've been given. So I think like everything in life needs to evolve. Everything needs to be up to date and evolve. But I think now probably things are changed probably a little bit too far. Is the Michelin guide a bit rigged? Can people have perhaps businesses bought Michelin stars or bribed people to get a Michelin star?

40:03Are you aware of that? No, I don't think so. That's happening. And look, I grew up in Michelin stars. I work for Alan Dukas in Monte Carlo and for Serb Brothers. But if you tell me, Martin, tonight I'm taking you to Michelin star restaurant, I will gladly decline it. Because I think they're boring, most of them. Most of them, you know. Who wants to sit at the table with 12 courses, dinner, and 14 wines per that you have no choice? Someone is telling you what to drink. Pack it off, you know.

40:40I would go to Michelin star once every two years, if someone forced me or invited me. Sometimes I go to Michelin star and say, oh, they got Michelin star. Oh, really? Jim Canna is a good example. Jim Canna, close to your ex-restaurant and close to Dover. Fantastic, really. I think one of the best restaurants in London, or one of my most favorite restaurants, they have Michelin stars with us, but they're not pretentious. The fun, the loud, the quality is amazing, the service is brilliant. They deserve it. So that Michelin star approach and attitude and evolution is perfect, really fantastic. Those Michelin stars where you still have a little foam and smoke coming out, not for me, no thank you.

41:30I would rather have my pen arrabbiada I agree with you I agree with you I mean you're Spanish, you rather prefer to have paella rather than some smoke coming from I don't know, from something 100 % but I personally am happy with the direction that Michelin is moving towards because I believe that going back to your analogy of you need to have good food for the first hour great service for the second and innovation on the third I think the definition of good food, good service and innovation has expanded. So in the past, it used to be, as you were mentioning, very boring, very traditional for a very particular type of customer, which was this very refined upper class.

42:12But right now, I think it's much more democratic and accessible, and I think that's good. But it's also interesting that this industry can give you so many funny memories and events, and I can only imagine you having worked in so many different fantastic places. You must have a lot of memories. So I want to ask you the funniest moment in any place that you've worked. It could have been with Alain Dukas, it could have been at the Dover, your restaurant, or Soho house, or a hotel. Well, I have lots of funny stories. Give me two. I want the funniest and the craziest. No, I'm not going to tell you anything.

42:54And I'll tell you why. Because I have lots of funny stories and lots of naughty stories. Because they happen. You know, hospitality is about social life, you know. And, of course, I walk in hotels, so I just remember all the stories, and some of them are quite naughty. And you see people in their kind of more vulnerable state, especially when they stay in a hotel because they become the home so they sleep, they have the shower they get undressed so there's many things happening and if you know the stories let's cancel this recording I'll take you out for dinner and I'll tell you everything we're definitely doing that ok question, so you mentioned naughty stories can you point me into the right direction is there like a company that you worked for that has more naughty stories than others, so perhaps Soar House is more than Four Seasons Yes, I mean look Soar House I love my time at Soar House I really loved it because I think before we started this interview one of your questions was my time with Nick and how we met and it was a big change I was coming from a five star hotel you know, very strict Michelin, shaving twice, jacket and tie.

44:25And suddenly I met Nick on a social event. We started chatting. At that time, I was working at One Old Witch Hotel. Nick Jones is the founder of Soho House, for those that don't know. Yes. And then, so I was working at One Old Witch Hotel, which was the first kind of five-star contemporary hotel. That was before W Hotels, before any of these hotels. There were three categories of hotels at this time. We had the Grand Palaces, the Clerages, the Reeds, the Dorchesters. And then you had Jan Schreger just opened hotels in New York, the Morgan Hotels. And he was very avant-gred and amazing. I love Jan and what he achieved in hospitality.

45:12But there was nothing between. You know, he was, I remember his design was Philip Stark, you know, very futuristic and, you know, he reinvented the lobby. And then you had the clergy, it's quite stiff and there was nothing between. So One Old Witch was something between the two at the time when we opened in 1998, so it was 27, 28 years ago. And so I was at One Old Witch at that time. I met Nick socially, you know, I was with like this and Nick, you know, a T-shirt and a hoodie. Randomly, socially. random social event and I used to I still live I live in Maidaville Little Venice and at that time Electric House opened Was that one of the first houses?

45:56The first one was Soho House in Greek Street and Electric was one of the two of number three then where we and I was close by you know I had no money I didn't know anyone everyone talks about Electric I couldn't get in so some of my friends oh I'm a member of the Electric House so I used to go I said, oh, that's an interesting idea of hospitality because it was very different what was existing then, from the design perspective to approach to membership element. At that time, you had old-school gentleman clubs or nothing. This was in 2008. Yeah, and of course, when Nick set up a house in 1995, that was a really long time ago.

46:41So I met Nick on social event and we, we become friends, you know, we just, because we, we, we love the same thing. We love making people happy and through different, different journeys, you know, me slightly more structured, slightly more, uh, stiff, I would say, cause five star hotel those times and Michelin were very stiff and Nick was fun, whatever, but the purpose was the same, make someone else happier. And so we start talking to each other for a long time. We become friends. We used to date in brackets, used to go out for lunches, for dinners. And then suddenly Nick asked me, look, our members asking us to open more places around the world.

47:22Some of them, we had no bedrooms at that time. They're asking to open hotels. I have no experience, that's Nick. I have no experience in hotels. I've never done this before. You come from the hotel experience. Come to join me. And I said, hmm, really? Me double-breasted jacket and going to the show house this time. But I was young. I was still young. And so I said, you know what? I'm going to try it. I'm going to try it. And if it doesn't work, it doesn't work. I can still change it. And I closed my eyes. I said, let's go for it. And it was very different. It was very different at the beginning.

47:58Because, yes, I come from very structured and very kind of stiff environment, precise. And so our house was same purpose, but with different packages. You know, the package at Soar House was fun, was out of naughtiness, but purpose was always the same, to make a person in front of you happier. So yeah, that was the beginning of my career at Soar House. Nick sold you his vision? No, Nick inspired me by his vision. Nick had a vision and vision was very simple. You know, he wanted people who he knew and to be in one room having a good time. He always said, I'm in the business of making someone happy.

48:51And probably my saying, I want to make people happy, I've learned from Nikdes. And we become very good friends until today. You know, we meet once a week or every two weeks with a bottle of red wine and, you know, we chat. So he hasn't sold me the vision. He inspired me by his vision. and I helped him to deliver that vision because he was... And I was... Together we clicked and we delivered what has become probably the biggest global membership club in the world. You certainly did. What's the biggest lesson that you've learned in that journey? Soul house journey. Keep the focus on your core product.

49:37and I think that's the biggest lesson keep very lesser focus on your core product and make sure that you identify what's your core product and then stick to it that's I think such a great advice generally for entrepreneurs and again I was discussing this with my fiance the other day we went for a walk and I was stressed and she was like my sort of outlet to and my safe space.

50:07That's why you're stressed. That would do another whole episode. You look at the camera, you worry, she's looking at you. So I'm telling her, baby, I feel a bit stressed, but I always deal good with complex work environments. But lately, I'm a very curious person and I think I can relate to you and Nick in that regard. So if there's a new project that I'm very passionate about, even if it's not necessarily within the umbrella of my industry, I'm going to go into it. So it could be AI. And my background is in computer science, but it could be within AI. Right now, the season two of our show, which is probably one of the most exciting things that I'm doing now, I'm writing a book.

50:46And then there was a new project that I wanted to onboard, and at some point, you can't, right? And going back to what's the core, maybe one or two cores, it would, I think, at least for me, help you see things with much more clarity and just perform better at what you're doing. I would love to have multiple lives because I think in one life I'd be a completely different person than what I am now. But as you said in the very beginning, life is finite. We have a limited amount of time on planet Earth. And sometimes more means less. And it took me several mistakes to learn that lesson. I mean, I love reading about other people's professional successes.

51:27and I love kind of reading you know psychology of people and you know the older I get the more no I keep saying the power of no and you know a lot of people say oh I can do it I have resources I'm invisible I have determination I can wake up in the morning 5 o 'clock I go to the gym and I smash it and I think you know saying no has huge power capacity, in your brain. Today, what I do, it has become a kind of routine by seeing how my body and brain react. I work all the time. I don't think this balance between work and life exists if you find the job that you love. If you find the job that you love, it's interconnected.

52:22So if you ask me, how many hours you done last week? I don't know. how many hours are you going to do next week I don't know if you're not holding are you going to switch off why are you still breathing I need to breathe I need to eat so I'm not going to switch off but you have to find what you love and if you love you'll never work for the rest of your life if you find a job that you love you never work for the rest of your life and so just recently a couple of months ago I said look you know what Monday we have office, we have people, we have the team I said Monday is day for myself I work, of course I don't want any meetings I don't want any commitments I do that on Fridays, I love hearing this which is good because it extends a bit the weekend mentally speaking, you're still working but no meetings and actually, you are in control of your day if I want to wake up and play tennis I play tennis if I want to pick up the phone because something creative happens in my brain to my team.

53:26I say, look, I think we should do next restaurant like this. It just comes naturally. And if I want to do nothing at two o 'clock and have long lunch with a bottle of rose, I can do that. But this time for yourself, which you're still active, you're still working. It opens your brain incredibly. And it gives you space to think. It gives you space to reflect. and the most important thing, it allows you to work on the business, not inside the business, which I think many people make mistakes. They just go, oh, look how many hours I've done. And, you know, you should really step back a little bit and look at overall situation, but not only from the business perspective, you know, for your life, for your health.

54:11If you're healthy, if you're happy at home, if you're happy with your relationship, if you're happy with your family and friends and colleagues, it will have repercussion to your professional life and vice versa and I think that day a week it's only one day a week working day a week which is 100 % controlled by you if someone calls me and says I don't want to talk to you I want to be in control on that day and I think the power of no is I can see on my mental health on my psychology on my effectiveness I have become more effective by saying no and not saying yes. And it's incredible how that changed my life.

54:53Absolutely. I think this is, for example, a great lesson that one can learn in life, a very important one. But I think ultimately yourself or anybody else won't arrive to these conclusions and won't learn these lessons if they don't make mistakes. I'm pretty sure, and I am guessing here, that you've learned this by doing the opposite. and a lot of people have a very unhealthy relationship with failure and they try to avoid it and always play it safe and in my opinion you will learn nothing by following that approach you should not obviously always constantly be failing don't try to make the same mistake twice but first time mistakes you can have as many as you want both in your personal and professional life because that's what's going to help you build up a more resilient personality and learn and reach these conclusions I agree In 2023 you became an entrepreneur and opened a fantastic restaurant in London called The Dover.

55:55Why did you do this? look I when I left my house I took some time off I said look I need some not relaxing because I was relaxed but a little of decompression just to really understand what's my next chapter and my wife told me this is not your next chapter this is your new book chapter is the same part of the book so you're writing a new book and so I went traveling I did some of the trip by myself I went kite surfing, diving and then my family joined me and I didn't need some space to think and then I love hospitality, I love restaurants I love food and drinks I feel good when I'm surrounded by people and tables and I feel good and through my 30 years of experience I have seen many brands many hotels, many restaurants opening.

56:57And when I come back to London, I said, you know what? I will still work. I have to work. I want to work. My brain is still agile. I still have a lot of determination and the battery is still full, I think. I think the battery is still full. And I will be doing something in hospitality. But during this time off, I've done kind of a deal a contract with myself and based on a couple of criterias and you know criteria number one or the contract number one was I'll never work for anyone else and we always have bosses if you have investor, if you're a partner if you have a bank, those are your bosses but not as a corporation I've done big corporations, I've done big companies I said I don't want to work for anyone else So that was path number one.

57:54I said, number two, I said, I don't want to be a consultant. And, you know, there are some great consultants and some okay consultants. And for me, in my view, it might be a wrong view, but that's my view, which is very close to me. I don't want to be a consultant because I thought that consultants, they go out, they finger point this, do this, do this, do that. This is bad. They take the money and they bag it off. And I'm the person who, if I do something, I give everything. I give my heart, I give my brain, I give my skin, I give my name. I can't go halfway through, I have to go in. And so I said, I don't want to be a consultant.

58:34No matter how much money you pay me. And it happened. A lot of people called me, oh, Martin, can you help us in this? We pay you this, we pay you. I said, no, thank you. Do the client pick offers? Huge offers. Huge, huge offers. Someone asked me, I said, I Google, I knew your salary at our house because public companies was all there. I said, I'll pay you double. I said, I don't want it. I said, why? Because you're not a nice person. I don't care, you know. So number two, I don't want to be a consultant. I said, number three, whatever I do, if it's small, that small or that big or square or round, whatever shape, I want to make sure that you as a customer and me as a creator, when you walk in, you have goosebumps.

59:16You know, I want to say, ooh, I feel good here. You know, there's something, special, there's something with substance that just give you goosebumps like ooh, something beautiful but not beautiful to look at because I think it is quite pretentious but beautiful as a substance. So whenever I create, whenever I do you have to give you goosebumps and the last one, I want to give back how many bottles of Tinello you can drink how many nice watches you can have, how many nice suits you can have, how many nice cars I mean, there's a limit, yes. And I said at the beginning of this interview, that we are here for a very short period of time.

59:58And if my family has a fridge, not full, but with food inside, they can eat. They have roof above their heads, and they're healthy. I don't eat anything else. I'm happy. I'm not going to fly private jets and yacht in Portofino somewhere. That's not me. So I want to give back. And we're helping already a lot of other people through different channels or through silent investing, mentoring for free, you know, some charities, but not charities, just a Red Cross, you know. And there are different purposes to give away. And giving doesn't mean giving away your money, you know, giving away your time.

1:00:42I'm giving you my time today, you know, for free. You're not paying me for this. And if you had to pay me, I would not accept it. You know, because I respect you, what you've done in your career. I respect what you're doing now. And, you know, you're young and you're incredibly smart. And I'm giving you my time. So, in my mind, I'm helping you. I hope. Thank you. I'm helping you. And hopefully you're going to have more subscribers. Yes. Yes. And so, those are kind of my principles. And then when I come back to London, you know, I observe. And this is everywhere. LA, New York, Paris, big, big cities.

1:01:21You will travel, you send it. And I observe that there are three categories of restaurants today opening around the world. This is a big statement. And this is, again, my view and my opinion. You know, I call them, you have one part of the restaurant, I call them East. So anything that opens in East London or Meatpacking District in New York or downtown LA. If I tell you, describe me a restaurant that opened in East London or Danton LA. You said exposed brickwork, exposed kitchen, young guys, plenty of tattoos, loud music. Yes? Yeah. So you can already imagine what kind of restaurant is this, you know.

1:02:04Then you have, I call them the big machine. And big machines are, I don't know, Zuma, Hakkasan, you know, Gaia, big corporation, you know. And you can name many of those companies, big corporations. And they're all good. I'm not saying they're bad. They're all good. But there's a category of them. So you've got the East one, you've got the big machine, and then you have, I call them big and loud. The bigger they are and the louder they are. And louder, for me, loudness is the noise. How loud they are. You walk in and there's a DJ, boom, boom, boom. You can have the conversation. Loud, they are in design and the look.

1:02:48So very arrogant and very oppressive as our look and feels. And loud as our attitude. Those kind of restaurants that if you have yellow horrible Lamborghini, you get a better table. There's one very well known in the same street of your restaurant. For the next episode, we can talk about Mayfa, yes. But you know what I mean. So I said, you know what? and me coming back from old school traditional I noticed that the old school hospitality slowly slowly is disappearing in a big thing and I said I think I have to do something about it I said where's the tablecloth gone? There's no more tablecloths in the restaurants.

1:03:31I'm making big points of course there's tablecloth but there's many people that don't put tablecloth anymore where's the real candle on the table? you know they put this battery operated lamps now which are disgusting where's the real candle you know where's the real where are the free tablecloths to hide everything else and not to make noise you know in old days the tablecloth were thick so when you sat like this that was your etiquette sitting like this you know it was good for your bones you know where where's the waiting staff wearing proper jacket and so I was like what's happening with hospitality?

1:04:11I have to do something about it and also if you look at all these three segments of the restaurant, if you really think they all look very similar because you had one designer working for a big design studio and most of them and so those people design most of the restaurants around the world and then someone used to walk for the studio and said oh I opened my own studio but the blood is the person from that studio so you start noticing I have seen this table before I have seen this sofa before I have seen this plant somewhere this looks familiar and so I was fed up of seeing the same thing and everyone is trying really hard to move forward reinvented something which doesn't have to be invented it has to be evolved but not reinvented And that's why I said, I have to do something about it.

1:05:07And that's why I opened the Dover. And the Dover is designed by, you know, two, they become very good friends of mine, two guys from Milan called Queen Coaches and Drago, you know, Fanny and David. They know, she's Norwegian, Italian, he's Spanish. And I walk in the studio, someone else introduced me to them for completely different reasons. I was not there looking for designers. I had a very clear idea of what I wanted. And I had a clear vision of how the restaurant should look like. Even though I'm not a designer, but I love, I have a good eye, I think. I have a good eye and I know what people like.

1:05:49I feel my instinct of what people like. And I walk in the studio with a friend of mine, Similane, and I look at the studio around. I said, this is nice. I said, I like the studio. Can I see the owners? and so the owners came both Fanny and David and I like this in the reception I said hi my name is Martin blah blah and this gentleman was looking something for his private home and I instantly I said can I ask you a couple of questions and Fanny Norwegian quite precise I said yes go I said have you designed a restaurant before and they said no I said, yes. Have you designed bar before? No. Yes. Have you designed anything in hospitality?

1:06:36Yes, but not as relevant as many things happening because our studio is more residential and product-driven rather than hospitality. I said, great. I said, would you like to work with me? And finally looked at me, you're fucking mad. Who are you? And I said, well, you're right. Let me introduce myself. So I introduced myself and she went, you are mad. You're going to work together. And the day after, I flew them over to London. I explained my vision. And they have delivered my vision higher than expectation I had. And the vision was keep it simple. Keep it simple but beautiful. Keep it warm. Keep it with substance.

1:07:21I don't want any sense of arrogance. I don't want anything to be overcomplicated. And simplicity is difficult. To achieve simplicity with style, I think, is the most difficult thing. And so that's why we did the Dover. And when we launched the Dover, I was also fed up of how restaurants today are being launched. Everyone launches with some influencer. I don't have my phone on me, but that's the phone. Oh, look at me. you know big light no lights like this oh look at me and oh jesus okay why should i look at you um and and again they're very very loud um and it's all about you know the phone again life has changed but i haven't found the app that you can taste martini on the phone can you i don't know can you drink it can you have penna rabbiata from the phone and smell it how spicy you can't can you feel your heart going up through the screen?

1:08:24I don't think so you can so I said you know what I'm not going to do anything about it I will do one thing which is a very difficult thing and I was emotionally I cried I cried and I was super nervous because that was me and being an entrepreneur you're alone it was me in the mirror I was talking to myself and I said this is how I'm going to launch a restaurant and I said how are you going to know about it I said well I'll invite a few people we know people I'll invite but I have to do brilliant job not good job brilliant job because if I do brilliant job people will come back people will talk and these people are becoming my influencer and I don't have to pay them and I don't have to be in your face but But there was a big risk.

1:09:15I remember the day before, I said, uh-oh, I think I'm making a big mistake here. Because I opened the door, actually the curtain, you know, at the door we have this beautiful curtain. I said, I just opened the curtain and hope for the best. As long as the food is fantastic, it's well-priced, the design is amazing, the service is kind, the service is efficient, everyone must say yes, and then figure out how to do it. And if I do that and people like it, they will come back. Full stop, simple. I was having a discussion very recently with a friend of mine. He's the founder of a company called Big Mama, Big Mama Group, which is quite successful.

1:09:54Victor. Yeah, I was speaking with Victor, and it's a successful Italian cuisine restaurant group. And they've just did quite a substantial exit for over 200 million. And I asked him this precise question, what does it take to build a successful restaurant? and he said, look, you can discuss and you can put all the fluffy and nice things, you know, about human resources, incentive programs, marketing, this and that. But it all comes down to one thing. If for the price that you are operating in, right, so it could be mid-tier, entry-level or super fine dining, you're the best one at that, people will come back.

1:10:31So for the price that you're paying, is this the best food possible? Is this the best design possible? And is this also the best service possible? People will come back. Absolutely. That's it. And quoting your same words, and he also used the same words, it's interesting because perhaps people in the hospitality space, they swear more than in other industries. He said, if you open a fucking good restaurant, it will work, period. Yes. Yeah. And a lot, you know, I go back to this because I'm really passionate about it. A lot of people, and I see, I've been, people ask me for help. And I said, you know what?

1:11:03I have time. I'll go to see. And they sit at the table, do layout of the tables. and said, oh, I can squeeze one more table there in that corner. That table multiplied by average spend, I don't know, 50 to 100 pounds per person, multiplied by 360 days a year, that gives me a quarter of a million. I said, oh my God. This is how you think about the restaurant business. Of course, restaurant business is a business, like anything. It's not a charity. You have to work. You have to have money to pay the rent, the staff, the economy has to move. but the approach has to be always building the best product possible the best service possible and if you do the best product the best service the best restaurant in your own capacity everything else will walk away I agree yeah and then you know when you have top line and top line comes from a good product then the money comes down and then you tweak it okay this is I'm spending too much on food I'm spending maybe too little on drinks maybe I'm overpaying my rent maybe this so you can tweak it But if your top line is shit, there's nothing to tweak on.

1:12:10The way I said this is that the hospitality industry is where both art and business can coexist. So if you're more on the artsy side, which is in this case, perhaps your mission is to our restaurants. Financially, perhaps the restaurant won't be performing as well. But if you're too business oriented, too corporate, too logical, you're not going to have, as you're mentioning, that top line. People are not going to come. So I think if you're able to find that sweet spot in which art and business can coexist, is where real hospitality and magic can happen. You've opened many restaurants globally in so many different countries for very big companies.

1:12:46But when you open your restaurant, you decide to do it in London. Why? Well, I live in London. That's my home. My family is here. I know London pretty well. I'm a control freak. So I can be there and check if Pena Rabiat has the right tomato sauce. And I saw London declining as a restaurant offering. And I said, I have to do something about it. I have to, in a small part, you know, Dover is small, you know, 60 covers restaurant. Full every night, fun, we're super happy. But in a small micro climate, can I make a change? Can I show that you don't have to be everything what I said before? You know, that you can be simple and successful, that you can be quiet, not loud on social media, and it can be successful.

1:13:46You can be well-priced and it can be profitable. You can serve Panarabiatra and people will love it. so I choose London because it's my city, I know it I can keep an eye, it's my name on the tin you know I'm the face of it, it's mine and I wanted to help London to go back what London used to be, which I think is coming back, you know London is going through, or UK is going through challenges at the moment I think we reach the bottom and slowly it's coming back but it needs people like us you young entrepreneur you've done many things in London but it needs people to push it and that was one of the reasons I wanted to do it in London Has the journey as an entrepreneur been as you expected so far?

1:14:41Probably not as I expected because I had no expectation I had And, you know, of course, before I worked with big companies, so I had big machine behind me, you know, big structure, which I built. And here, when you're an entrepreneur, you're alone. So I didn't know what doesn't mean to be alone, you know. And when I was designing, let's say, the Dover, and I remember, you know, I came home and I didn't talk about it to anyone. no social media, no press, no nothing and I said I'm a strong believer that action speaks louder than words you know, let me open first and then the restaurant will talk I don't want to talk, I can't say Pena Rabiata is fantastic the customer needs to say, I can say Pena Rabiata I think is nice but I won't say come, Alberto come to me because I know I have the best the best steak in town I can't say, I have the steak you have to judge it So I strongly believe action speaks louder than it was.

1:15:48And when I was designing the restaurant with Queen Coaches and Dragon, we had the mood boards, you design for your restaurant. And I went home and I asked my wife, Ruby, I said, what do you think? And she's amazing. She's got amazing style and panache, but she can't read the floor plans. She can't understand the layouts and she can't imagine. And she looked at this and said, well, I can't help her. I said, thanks, that's very helpful. And she went, I will tell you what's wrong when it's open. I said, that's too long. That'll be too late. So, you know, being an entrepreneur, I wake up in the morning and you go in front of the mirror and you talk to yourself.

1:16:29And so I didn't know what to expect to answer to your question. But being or have become an entrepreneur, you really realize that you're alone in that game. And if you believe what you're about to do, stick to it and don't give up. But you need to be passionate about it. You have to have huge passion and strongly believe that is the right thing to do and just go for it. Even if it's over right now, it's very successful. I'm pretty sure that there are moments of doubt and you need to go back to that mirror and talk to yourself. What do you tell yourself in those days?

1:17:19How can Dover stay relevant? Because I don't want to change the menu every two minutes. I'm not going to repaint the walls every five minutes. I'm not going to change staff uniforms every three months. So how, in three years' time, how can Dover be relevant? So I'm asking my dad question and I don't have the answer yet. even though today Dover has been described as an instant classic in London because it is classic it's nothing pretentious, it's just classic and maybe that relevance is to maintain the consistency and I think a lot of restaurants around the world the most difficult part in the restaurant business is consistency and I think maybe the relevance of the Dover will be the consistency in five years time you might say let's go to the door because I'm going to have that martini because five years ago was exactly the same you know I'm going to go and have spaghetti meatballs it's exactly the same so you know already without looking the menu because it has been open let's say for five years if you fast forward I'm going to go because it's consistent it's good it never lets you down so maybe that's the relevance so but I'm still questioning myself interesting I've also navigated that question and I've identified two answers that came from two different experts that I find very valid answers.

1:18:42So the first one is coming from probably one of the world's best restaurant designers and he told me, look Alberto the clients that come back to me the least for new designs are the ones in which we've built a restaurant that feels like it was always been there. When you open it, it feels as you said, as a classic. You're not opening something new, something super shiny, that after two years it's already going to look old. You open something that gives you the feeling of an institution. It's always been there. And I agree with that. And then the second person is the owner of a private equity that owns some of the best restaurants in the world.

1:19:18And he has the thumb on the pulse to understand which restaurants and why are they performing better than others and which ones don't need to change in their institutions. and he said that if you're a restaurant that you are predominantly known for the experience, so to see and be seen and for the party scene, those type of clientele, they're not loyal because they follow a trend. And a trend by definition has a beginning. Yeah, call them travelers. Exactly. So you won't be able to build a legacy, an institutional brand, not even a restaurant brand based on those clientele. So those are, I think, two very valid points that I'm not sure if you've considered, but this is something that I think they're incredibly, incredibly valid and both from a business perspective I can see them but also from a customer point of view.

1:20:02I can relate to that. Yeah. Well look we've been very lucky at the Dover. 70 % of our customers today after two years being open are regulars. And it has become, maybe because of my background but the Dover has become, I call it, public members club. There's no membership. You can come in. It's open to everyone. It's very democratic. But it has become like a members club, a public members club. You walk in and if your table is at the end of the room, it's going to take you 10 minutes to walk because every second table, you know someone. Say, hi, how are you? And I love to see that. I love to see people standing up and giving them a hug.

1:20:49Oh, how are you? Have a chat and saying, okay, I'm going to have my meal now. And so I'm super proud that we have achieved that regular customer base. Martin, what is your relationship with failure?

1:21:08Do we have another half an hour? I think a lot of people, and I come back to myself, a lot of people say, oh, we love failure because you learn and a lot of people avoid failure. I think I have many emotions about failure. I'm afraid of failure. Let's be honest. No one likes to fail. Regardless if you say, you learn, fine, but I still failed. So I'm afraid of failure. I respect failure. I try to learn from failure I will try to avoid failure I will run away from failure but in professional and we're talking about professional in a professional sphere of life failure is good you know failure we're not, especially in hospitality we're not saving lives you know we're not doing jobs or you know I'm not surgeon you know I'm not you know working with someone else life actually I'm giving you food and drink so it's not rock and science so I think in hospitality even though I'm all of these things I'm afraid I try to avoid and run away from the failure when it comes I have to accept it so you know my relationship with it okay come on sit down sit down next to me so tell me where did i fucked up sorry again swearing you know where did i make mistake come on sit down with me you know i i i will i'll avoid it i'll run away but when it happens i will confront it i will confront it and come on slap me slap me more give me another punch like boxing ring and but tell me where where did i make that mistake and and i'll try you know the answer already i'll try to learn it.

1:23:19I will try to absorb. I will be a very good listener. But the most important thing, I will confront it. I said, come on, be in the face of me. Face me. But it's not easy, especially we all have egos. We all have ego. And if someone said, oh, I like failure, I think it's bullshit. No one likes failure. And you want to be successful in your life, in professional life. and success can be defined in many ways but if it happens you have to confront it you have to make your best friend the failure has to be your best friend avoid it to start with but if it happens make your best friend if you could go back and speak with your 20 year old self and give him an advice what would you advise him?

1:24:12probably I'll give two advices. One, trust your gut. You know, I only learned, listen to my gut and my instinct, I don't know, maybe 10 years ago. You know, before I was very, maybe that Polish part in my brain kicks in, I was very analytical. You know, to-to-toom, to-toom, to-toom. And only probably 10 years ago, I learned, which is very difficult to listen to your instinct, to your gut. You feel something and then your analytical brain kicks in and you say, I'm thinking through, I'm adding up, this is better than this and actually this is better. That's why it's called instinct. So trust your instinct.

1:24:59And second, my advice would be find the job that you really really love. And if you do that, you'll never work for a of life. What would you advise to someone that wants to open a restaurant for the first time?

1:25:23There's many things I will advise. One, don't overcomplicate it, you know, just keep it simple and make sure that if you have partners, that the partners have the same vision as you. because that's at the end to be your name on it. You're smiling, you might know. And if you're opening the restaurant and you want green glass, make sure that your partner has the same style. Because if the partner likes yellow glass, there'll be a problem down the line. So make sure that if you have partner with you, that the partner share and believes in your vision.

1:26:09and I think make not I think I know make sure that you make every decision that are only beneficial to the customer and to your members of the team if the decision is bad for the customer or for your member of your team it's a bad decision so every decision has to be for the benefit of the customer You've shared previously your definition of success. Would you say you're successful? Yes, depending how you describe success. Describe it to me based on your acceptance and your affirmation of being successful. Success, I will split success. Yes, I consider myself successful. And I will split success in two parts, professional and personal.

1:26:59Personal, I have an amazing family. You know, I wake up in the morning and I'm alive. I can move my hands. I can talk. I'm healthy. I have a beautiful home. A home for me is not a physical home. Home is my wife, my mom, my family, my friends. I have people that I love and they love me back. You know, small group, but it's a tight group. So in that perspective, I feel personally very, very successful. Professionally, I consider myself successful because every day I woke up and I'm happy what I do. I enjoy what I do. Every task that is in front of me, I do it with smile. I do it with passion, enjoyment.

1:27:51And that's for me success. And I think if you have that, the financial success, if that's the question, it will follow. So I've considered my lucky and successful profession because I do what I love. I find what I love and I do that every day. Are you happy? Super happy. Thank you, Martin. Thank you for your honesty. And there are two things that I really appreciate from your journey and from your story. One of them we were discussing right before starting the conversation, the interview. A lot of people that go through a lengthy corporate career, they get exposed to how business looks like. The complexities of the competitive landscape, the ever-constantly evolving customer taste and preferences, the also dynamic cost structures.

1:28:47and just by being exposed to all of these different complexities for an extended period of time, many years, it becomes harder for a person to logically make the decision of starting a business because you really have a good understanding of the level of risk that you're taking. If you compare this to a young entrepreneur, that's why I very much am a supporter of young entrepreneurs. a lot of people start a business in their 20s or their 30s because they don't see the problems even though they're there because they have not been exposed to other problems in the past of similar natures or hence if you have never experienced it you will experience it not through the lenses of a bigger corporation that you're working for but through your own company and hence that's why they start so I very much appreciate your level of courageousness you're a very brave person and that's something that I find very interesting and fascinating.

1:29:45And the second point is that right now in your 50s, you're still in a stage in your life in which you're constantly trying to understand who is it that you are. And based on that, you're making every decision at a personal and professional level to fit back into your happiness, your personal happiness. You don't have a general definition of success or a general definition of happiness. a lot of people, the ones that become entrepreneurs after a long corporate experience they feel like they now want to milk the cows so I build up my name, my reputation I know the tricks in the book I'm going to start a business and start making tons of money that was not your case you just wanted to build something that is small that you can control, that you can enjoy and that would give you those goosebumps in the same way that you want to give them to the client so I appreciate that and I appreciate for showing us that success can have again, another shape and another definition Thank you Martin.

1:30:39Thank you very much. Good chat. Thank you very much.